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Dodkrake
Banned
Why do people think this is true? I work with audio. Simply turning on my microphone, far removed from my computer, in a quiet environment, still measures something. Whisper quiet is still audible in a microhpone. There's no need to lie to make a point on something that seems to be true (the console running quiet in taxing tasks).
Unless he has a noise gate enabled and is too stupid to understand what a noise gate is, which wouldn't suprise me.
HAL-01
Member
I'm a native Spanish speaker, your translations are mostly right. We have 2 different interviews with the same guy by 2 different sites, published one day apart. In one he confirms ray traced GI, on the other he confirms no RT.While I'm not spanish, my spanish chops are ok. Happy to translate what the interviews say, with proper context. First, the one that says Demon Souls has no Ray Tracing
Confirman que Demon’s Souls no tendrá raytracing en PlayStation 5 | LevelUp
LEVEL UP platicó con Gavin Moore, director creativo del juego y miembro de SIE Japan Studiolevelup.com
Original
Translation
This does lead to believe that there is no Ray Tracing on the game, contradicting previous statements and Sony themselves.Now, the interesting bit as that another "interview" from the day before completely contradicts this.
Así se ha creado Demon’s Souls: conociendo el primer gran exclusivo de PS5
Entrevistamos a Gavin Moore, director creativo del título en SIE Studios, encargado de coordinar tanto al equipo japonés como a Bluepoint Games.as.com
Original
Translation
This one shows that there is Ray Traced global illumination, from my understanding of what he said.
It's just a classic case of Schrodinger's Lighting, in which the game both does and does not implement RT at the same time, until either one of the interviews is proven bogus.
smallpotatosan
Member
He probably forgot to turn it on.
Yoboman
Member
Perhaps its RT in the visual quality mode and no RT in the performance mode
Dodkrake
Banned
Thank you. My spoken spanish is mostly shit, but I can read and understand properly.
Since I don't know how big those websites are I won't comment on whether the interviews may be more or less trustworthy, but seems weird that this has occurred.
Could be that some context is lacking? This just sounds weird
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smallpotatosan
Member
I have no idea what's going on. I guess I don't care anymore. lol
Dodkrake
Banned
Simple enough: Every single medium and interview so far has mentioned RT. One "interview" says no ray tracing, while other, on the same language, from the day before, says ray tracing. I say we trust the majority of the news until that same majority is proven wrong.
HAL-01
Member
Could be the case, though the interviews don't specify. In one he goes "all lighting and shadows in the engine are real time thanks to RT" and on the other he just says "no rt because that was never part of our original vision". They didn't leave a lot of room for speculation.
It could also be a case of things being lost in translation. I assume the Gavin guy doesn't speak Spanish, so they must've used a translator. They could've asked him if the game had "RT reflections" when they meant RT in general, and because the game only has RT global illumination, not reflections, Gavin said no
Zadom
Member
Lethal01
Member
I totally overlooked this, would explain a lot.
I thought him saying that it wasn't part of the vision and they eventually decided against it made sense. but the fact that he said it had it in an interview one day ago threw everything out of wack.
Snowdonhoffen
Member
Someone ask Lance McDonald, he must know if the game has RT, maybe even John Linneman 
Rea
Member
Maybe your definition of real time lighting is different from mine, I'm talking about lighting like lumen in UE5 demo. Also, which majority of triple A games are you talking about, to give you an example, Triple A games like last of us2 and spider man ps4 used pre baked lighting and shadows.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Someone someone told me this thread is the Sony Gap thread while I'm here to tell you guys that I am the true Sony gath Lord and you must all bow down to me
Lethal01
Member
3liteDragon
Member
The UE5 demo DID have real-time ray-tracing (GI and shadows), the only difference being that it was software-based and not hardware-accelerated (which still looked incredibly impressive, wonder how much of a difference you're gonna see with hardware-accelerated triangle-based RT). The UE5 demo had a VOXEL-BASED representation of all the geometry in the scene for large-scale light transfer so it's less intensive on the hardware since it's not tracing all the triangles on the model, but it's more of a simplified version of the scene geometry.
www.eurogamer.net
So Demon's Souls could be using a software-accelerated non-triangle-based RT solution (I could be flat-out wrong on this and it could turn out to be hardware-accelerated, I'm just guessing lol), but that still means the game has real-time ray-traced shadows and global illumination.
Inside Unreal Engine 5: how Epic delivers its generational leap
Epic's reveal of Unreal Engine 5 running in real-time on PlayStation 5 delivered one of the seismic news events of the …
www.eurogamer.net
So Demon's Souls could be using a software-accelerated non-triangle-based RT solution (I could be flat-out wrong on this and it could turn out to be hardware-accelerated, I'm just guessing lol), but that still means the game has real-time ray-traced shadows and global illumination.
Snowdonhoffen
Member
Also isn't this screenshot ray traced or is just SSR with some pre baked reflections like the building in the puddle?
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ToadMan
Member
So the best looking next gen game doesnt use RT?
And one of the worst looking games doesn't have RT either.
So maybe RT won't make a Craig look better ...
But in reality RT is a real-time and dynamic lighting algorithm which is computationally intensive. But it can be faked pretty well by less intensive algorithms or even statically implemented by the graphic artists.
I'm not surprised people thought DeS had RT until someone told them it didn't. It's not really that easy to see in a lot of gaming situations and even if you do "see it" the implementation may be non real-time or using a cheaper method to achieve the same effect.
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ToadMan
Member
Honka
Neo Member
So I got most of my PS5 accessories in today including the Pulse 3D headset so I wanted to give a mini-review. Just initial impressions from using them for a few hours tonight:
First, I hadn't realized they weren't bluetooth but had a dedicated USB transmitter that you will plug into your PS5. I tested the headphones with my Mac which seamlessly recognized and started sending audio to the headset.
For the headsets themselves, the construction felt surprisingly sturdy to me, especially for also how light they feel. The headset feels like it's good quality...at least comparable to my other $300+ wireless headset that I have, but it sits very lightly on my head. Feels very comfortable and the ear cups are very nice and soft. I wore them for over an hour straight and didn't have any 'ear fatigue.' I am someone who is a bit sensitive to ear fatigue and has to take breaks from many headsets after a while as they start to pinch my head or ears. These didn't do that after over an hour of continuous wear. So a plus in my book.
Sound quality of the headsets seems really nice. I think they could use a bit more bass and maybe a bit more volume ability as well. I like my audio pretty damn loud. Again, this is comparing them to my $300 wireless headset which I think has absolutely PHENOMENAL bass and good volume. But the Pulse 3D definitely HAVE bass and their mid and high range sounds good and distinct even when the bass is pumping, so that's good too. Overall I'd say they sound a bit better than I had expected them to for their price point. They're quite good!
The one thing I can't test that I'm concerned about is the wireless range and quality. I had a turtle beach pair of wireless headphones for my PS4 that used a USB transmitter like this and even with my entertainment center and TV about 8 feet away, they used to lose connectivity regularly enough to be an annoyance and sometimes would develop a high pitched squeal and echo that could only be resolved by restarting the PS4. It was enough of a pain in the ass that I trashed them and they cost me about $200. Just weren't worth it. So I'm very hopeful that these headsets don't have the same issues on the PS5. If it does...I'll trash them too and I will be telling EVERYONE including SONY all about it!
So overall, I think these headsets are a pleasant surprise for their price point. Very good sound by any measure although serious audiophiles will have gripes. Good bass levels with clear mid and high range although I DO wish they put out just a touch more volume...it's certainly adequate and will fill your head with sound. Ergonomics are very nice and comfortable with a lightness that should help gamers putting in multiple hour gaming sessions. The headsets feel like a quality built item so I think they will hold up to extended use pretty well.
I recommend these headsets to anyone looking for a good wireless option for their PS5. And you can still use them on your computer if you want to.
Thanks a lot for your review! Do you have Android TV to check whether Pulse 3D works with it?
onesvenus
Member
Not using RT does not equal to using the CPU to compute shadows and lighting. Most games from more than a decade ago compute shadows and lighting in the GPU.
Also self-shadowing is another thing that can be done without RT.
You are right when you say that people don't know what they are seeing
GI can also be done without dedicated RT hardware.
Real time lighting and real time shadows do not imply the use of RT. The proof is in all the games that have used that for the last decades.
Can you give a single example of an AAA game that doesn't use any kind of real time lighting shadowing that has been developed in the last 10 years?
Last of us 2 and Spiderman PS4 using pre baked static lighting and shadows does not mean there are not using real time lights and shadows also. It's not one thing or the other. There are some places where one does makes sense and some places where the other does. For example in games where there isn't a dynamic day-night cicle it usually doesn't make sense to use real time shadows in the environment because those shadows are static. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to not use real time lighting and shadowing in characters for example.
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Dibils2k
Member
but once again, the expert Bo said there was CLEAR evidence of RT??Reposting from the DS RT thread:
I have asked both authors what's happening and the one that claims there's no raytracing posted the original English transcript of the interview
The original tweet is here
has bluepoint ever even said there would be RT?
roosnam1980
Member
two more weeks and every thing will be clear.
danielJackson
Banned
Yeah it is sad, I have masters degree in environmental sciences and did noise measurements in a job + also 80 page study about noise measurements as part of the education + my boss were the most respected noise measurement expert in the country. And I dont remember seeing one (1) professionally made measurement from consoles so far, of any gen
And people believe these, because they have zero knowledge and/or they are gullible. They dont know shit about sound or measurements = any baboon with phone app is expert to them, sadly. People I met in the job, regular people, none had real understanding and they made wrong assumptions like few seconds of measuring is good(it is not) indicator, that how they get annoyed is certain mark that levels are illegal and so on.
I could bet this twitter baboon have phone app as "noise meter" as 99% have and think it have anything to do with calibrated professional equipment. And thinking how his "300 dollar mic" tells anything about the situation is stupid, it is probably some mic made for talking, not measuring noise. So those mics have some filters to make sound quality better usually. Good professional noise meters cost easily thousands (reason why they are almost never used in these "tests")
It is frustrating when people claim the system is "silent" or "whisper quiet", those literally tell nothing and mean nothing. Only professionally made measurements using standards tell the truth.
otherwise it is just random measurement, anything can fuck it up
- wrong equipment
- background noises (loud fans / ventilation / road traffic etc) = console can be noisy as fuck but these noises mask it = it is now "silent"
- wrong distance / different distances in different measurements
- wrong angle / side of device
- and 10 things more
devices must be measured in dampened "quiet room" with really low background noise levels, using same standards, calculating average from all/most sides from the device.
noise is subjective so reports are just personal feelings, not reality
Basically any device with fan is audible, only silent consoles are old NES/SNES era systems and even those emit tiny amount of noise in theory.
tl;dr it is safe to say that almost all internet console noise measurements are useless, as they are done wrongly + without professional equipment & environment
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Sinthor
Gold Member
I do not hav the Android TV- Sorry! I'd imagine that any device that typically works with headsets using USB transmitters SHOULD work with this though?
Rea
Member
I'm not talking about your definition of real time lighting, i was talking about dynamic lighting like lumen. I believe demon souls ps5 is using similar techniques as lumen.Not using RT does not equal to using the CPU to compute shadows and lighting. Most games from more than a decade ago compute shadows and lighting in the GPU.
Also self-shadowing is another thing that can be done without RT.
You are right when you say that people don't know what they are seeing
GI can also be done without dedicated RT hardware.
Real time lighting and real time shadows do not imply the use of RT. The proof is in all the games that have used that for the last decades.
Can you give a single example of an AAA game that doesn't use any kind of real time lighting shadowing that has been developed in the last 10 years?
Last of us 2 and Spiderman PS4 using pre baked static lighting and shadows does not mean there are not using real time lights and shadows also. It's not one thing or the other. There are some places where one does makes sense and some places where the other does. For example in games where there isn't a dynamic day-night cicle it usually doesn't make sense to use real time shadows in the environment because those shadows are static. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to not use real time lighting and shadowing in characters for example.
HAL-01
Member
Translation: "my theory is that they're using something that looks like RT, but they don't consider it pure rt. That would explain why they told us it didn't have RT, but told them it did. We're awaiting new information so we can clear things up"
It makes sense, but doesn't really explain why he would give different answers to the same question on interviews a couple days apart
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
Yes the opinion from the guy who can't see the difference between a console and a mobile game. Clicks clicks clicks.
hyperbole - exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
You took it literally.
thurnishaleygw
Member
So, Sony lied about Demon's Souls having RT, apparently. That's fucked up, and they should get the proper backlash for that. And still, based on the performance mode, it's still miles ahead of any other game we've seen so far.
I'm trying to find the fucks I give about ray tracing at this point, but I can't seem to find them.
On other news; Ubisoft, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with them? They blatantly lied about Watch Dogs being native 4K on Series X, apparently, coming from sources not precisely in cahoots with Sony (Alex from DF). That is still up on the air, I guess, since it is based on a gameplay video and we are yet to know 100% how it will fare on the console itself, but we're up to a bad start here. Then, they take down their statement about a number of PS4 games that won't work on PS5 because of some "inaccuracies".
Hell, what's wrong with these fucking companies, get your fucking shit together and be truthful. I don't care if your name is Sony, Ubisoft, or whatever.
I'm trying to find the fucks I give about ray tracing at this point, but I can't seem to find them.
On other news; Ubisoft, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with them? They blatantly lied about Watch Dogs being native 4K on Series X, apparently, coming from sources not precisely in cahoots with Sony (Alex from DF). That is still up on the air, I guess, since it is based on a gameplay video and we are yet to know 100% how it will fare on the console itself, but we're up to a bad start here. Then, they take down their statement about a number of PS4 games that won't work on PS5 because of some "inaccuracies".
Hell, what's wrong with these fucking companies, get your fucking shit together and be truthful. I don't care if your name is Sony, Ubisoft, or whatever.
Because it may well be. If you have a very quiet room then a mic shouldn't be registering sound. Even the best mic won't pic up sound that isn't there.
Maybe you have auto gain turned on.
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Jaguar Victory
Member
Also isn't this screenshot ray traced or is just SSR with some pre baked reflections like the building in the puddle?
Looks great but its a cut scene. 95% chance its baked since there is no need for dynamic lighting in a cutscene.
Rea
Member
Surely u do know about lumen right? What i meant by real time lighting is like lumen in ue5. We having misunderstanding. old gen games didn't use techniques like lumen, but in Demon's souls might be using similar techniques. Imo. Period. I'm out
Rea
Member
Sony can't lie, they won't risk so much reputation on the table, i think there's some misunderstanding or translation error. We have to wait and see.
Sw0pDiller
Banned
What's all this crazy talk about ds not having ray tracing? I could not care less, that game looks stunning! It's just ammo for the xbox defence squad because they don't have a game that comes even close visually to ds.
Rea
Member
No, just using my eyes, also i don't trust some interviews from unpopular magazine or journal from some websites. Have to wait and see until Df or other tech analysis channels get the hands on game.
Kingthrash
Member
I found some stuff.....I'll drop a video breaking down this vid....*forgot to add* watch it in motion, only 2 images are clear, HQ
-Aliasing during most of the scenes
-heavy use of motion blur
-at one point missing light on the car
-big surface building = no use of RT?
-some weird stuff going on during that fight, check the seams at 1min30 (left)
-some seconds of non series X footage, not sure why
Lethal01
Member
Like I said, saying "like Lumen" doesn't really tell me what you mean. For all I know all you mean by "like Lumen" is "it looks really nice"
Are you talking about bounced lighting? the mix of screenspace and RT?
It doesn't really matter but you keep talking like what you are trying to say is obvious.
Snowdonhoffen
Member
Yeah, what a weird 24 hours we've had. First AC Valhalla, then WD Legion and now Demon's Souls. Hope they clear up their stuff soon.
assurdum
Banned
Ubisoft never been honest about native resolution matter. I was quite surprise to see 4k labelled at 60 fps for Valhalla, this game is fucking demanding on pc, play in 4k resolution or full 4k by them, means nothing.
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
I want to be optimistic but it'll probably only get worse. Soon enough I guess.
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