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[TeamGhobad]

Despite all the "$599!!!" PS3 was sold at tremendous loss at launch, something like $300 per console. It is doubtful they'd be willing to take such a hit next gen (damn near bankrupted the company) - but things are different nowadays, SIE is a cash cow for Sony. So at some loss, why not.

some yes, but 100dollar loss no.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Seems I missed quite a bit, If you think there is that much of a difference in these machines power then you're going to be disappointed. They are both very close and Neither is under 10. I will stand on what I said they are both very competitive and the difference is minimal. You have a month a week and a few days until its official.

Thank you.

Because it fucking came from AMDs ASIC engineers testing 2020 chips? Jesus people...who the f is Kleegamefan?

Not one of the chips mentioned in repo came out, they are all scheduled for 2020 (Renoir, MI100, Oberon, Arden, Sparkman). Why do you think people will trust "yea they are def close" by Kleegamefan then literal data coming from AMD GPU engineers? (That was removed from Githun and twitter)?

Check specs I posted few posts above. If these spec from Github match final consoles, they will be 50% closer then X vs Pro - therefore certainly close.

You seem upset...

2 errors: We can see the ram bandwidth of Arden on the github leak: 560GB/s theoretical and only 16GB of total memory for Arden according to all insiders (that also leaked 4TF / 12tf etc.).

Which is exactly what was guessed by many after this year E3 Scarlett reveal using their motherboard render.

It seems you first decide on an agenda, then you go looking for evidence to support it. That can get you all kinds of places, the truth not being one of them.

Whhaaat!!?

 

[nowhat]

some yes, but 100dollar loss no.

Well, this gen at launch the BOM for PS4 was about the selling price - facture in all the extra (shipping, retail) and it was sold at a slight loss. I can't be arsed to google the reference so you'll have to take my word for it, but Sony themselves said they need to sell a single AAA game or a year of PS+ to break even, so something like $50 or thereabouts seems reasonable.

Going into next gen, Sony is in a really good position (this was not the case at the beginning of this gen), so $100 doesn't seem implausible. But still, no way they will be going for PS3-level loss per console.

 

[sinnergy]

Would explain the v-shape design PS5 needs monster cooling for that 2Ghz clocked GPU.

 

[BattleScar]

some yes, but 100dollar loss no.

The PlayStation division makes more money than Xbox and Nintendo combined from PSN alone. They could take a pretty big loss. Question is whether or not they want to.

Microsoft is a larger company certainly, but Xbox is a fraction of their business and I don't see shareholders allowing the Xbox division to haemorrhage money just cause they can. Xbox will need to be independently profitable.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Thank you very much Osiris, just 2 doubts. Do you maintain that PS5 is something ahead? Do you think it is possible for Sony to announce something of PS5 in ces? thanks

If the difference is minimal, does it really matter?
Even the average casual gamer can see that there is no difference between 11.7tf or 11.5tf (example numbers).
It will be down to brand/1st party games/services preference.

 

[TeamGhobad]

The PlayStation division makes more money than Xbox and Nintendo combined from PSN alone. They could take a pretty big loss. Question is whether or not they want to.

Microsoft is a larger company certainly, but Xbox is a fraction of their business and I don't see shareholders allowing the Xbox division to haemorrhage money just cause they can. Xbox will need to be independently profitable.

taking a loss would subtract even more from their profits. which makes even less sense for them to sell at a loss. All their profits from ps2 went into ps3 this is not a good model. MS has enough money to buy sony 10x over.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Would explain the v-shape design PS5 needs monster cooling for that 2Ghz clocked GPU.

The weirdest thing is that dev kit has been out since ~April/9 months with no word or leak to suggest it has been iterated upon since. So devs have been making launch games on it for up to 9 months and sometime in the next weeks/months another kit will come along that is very different?

I really do think the AMD GitHub leak has thrown everything off and we're now seeing things completely out of context on top of the usual of not having all info anyway.

I don't know where PS5 will land in all this for power/price/etc but I can already hear and feel the 'oh shits' from the reveal. Just not clear if it is good or bad....

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

taking a loss would subtract even more from their profits. which makes even less sense for them to sell at a loss. All their profits from ps2 went into ps3 this is not a good model. MS has enough money to buy sony 10x over.

New consoles are typically sold at a loss, the problem with the PS3 it was sold at a HUGE loss on top of having a super high price out the gate, that they will never do again. The PS4 was profitable at day one (which it made sense to go conservative on specs) and I think between that and the influx of money from PSN subscriptions they are in a much better place financially this time around.

 

[TeamGhobad]

but then again why would sony upclock to 2ghz if they weren't less powerful....

 

[Marlenus]

But 384bit bus is 32mm² larger then 256bit one. It would also mean 12 chips, 4 more then with 256 bit bus. So even if they are 14Gbps there are 50% more of them vs 8 on 256bit.

384bit bus is huge no no IMO. You can fit additional 8WGPs (16CUs) for that size.

18Gbps on 256bit bus will mean much smaller die size and ~ smaller wattage vs 384bit and 14Gbps chips.

Compare Navi 14 to Navi 10. A 60 cu, 3 shader engine, 96 rop, 384 bit RDNA design would be sub 350mm on N7 and around 310mm on N7+.

256bit also means 16GB or 32GB ram and 16GB is too little with 32 being too expensive. 384bit means 24GB which is a reasonable middle ground and provides very good bandwidth which Navi seems to need.

I really think based on what we know (so not leaks) that the sweet spot is a 350mm Soc with 56 active shaders, running at whatever the perf/watt sweet spot is.

As I have said before I also think both consoles will be nearly identical spec wise if the target retail price is the same. Spec differences will only happen if there is a price difference imo.

 

[BattleScar]

taking a loss would subtract even more from their profits. which makes even less sense for them to sell at a loss. All their profits from ps2 went into ps3 this is not a good model. MS has enough money to buy sony 10x over.

Firstly, Microsoft would barely have the $100-odd billion needed to buy Sony once, let alone 10x over. What kind of fanboy nonsense is this?
Yes Microsoft's market capitalisation is $1 trillion, but that has nothing to do with how much cash they have.

Secondly, PSN made $12.5 Billion in 2018. That's just PlayStation network; online game sales, add-on content and services. PlayStation as a whole made over $17 Billion. That $17 billion probably includes a proportion of the R&D $$$ associated with the PS5.

Meanwhile the entirety of Xbox managed $11.5 Billion.

PlayStation is more able to afford to take fairly significant losses on hardware sales than Xbox is. That doesn't mean they will choose to go that route. But they make more than enough money from software sales to handle themselves. If anything Xbox would find it harder to justify making huge losses on hardware.

As I said before. The Xbox division needs to be independently profitable. Microsoft and more importantly, their shareholders won't allow Xbox to piss money down the toilet cause it would give Xbox fans a warm fuzzy feeling inside them.

 

[Marlenus]

I don't think AMD is contracting the manufacturing of these chips? At least MS has previously done that by themselves?

You are correct. AMD are contracted to design it and then the client can contract with a foundry to produce it.

 

[TeamGhobad]

Firstly, Microsoft would barely have the $100-odd billion needed to buy Sony once, let alone 10x over. What kind of fanboy nonsense is this?

exaggeration for effect. point is MS has a lot more money than Sony. it wasn't that long ago sony was struggling financially (still is) and was forced to sell a bunch of assets. their TV homeelectronic sales are down compared to the 90s. South Korean companies are making ground. its future is not certain. MS can afford to sell at a loss Sony can't.

 

[Handy Fake]

exaggeration for effect. point is MS has a lot more money than Sony. it wasn't that long ago sony was struggling financially (still is) and was forced to sell a bunch of assets. their TV homeelectronic sales are down compared to the 90s. South Korean companies are making ground. its future is not certain. MS can afford to sell at a loss Sony can't.

B BattleScar makes a good point about the way the two companies work though. As a company, MS would not let an unprofitable sector continue. Thinking about it, I wonder if that's why there's been a push the last generation to steer it towards integration with the Windows/PC model?

 

[chemical boy]

exaggeration for effect. point is MS has a lot more money than Sony. it wasn't that long ago sony was struggling financially (still is) and was forced to sell a bunch of assets. their TV homeelectronic sales are down compared to the 90s. South Korean companies are making ground. its future is not certain. MS can afford to sell at a loss Sony can't.

That's why some buy Insomniac and other small studios.

 

[TeamGhobad]

That's why some buy Insomniac and other small studios.

they bought an asset they will profit from..not sure if there is a correlation here..

 

[TeamGhobad]

the point im trying to make is that if there is a war of attrition going on MS would win easily.

 

[vpance]

The weirdest thing is that dev kit has been out since ~April/9 months with no word or leak to suggest it has been iterated upon since. So devs have been making launch games on it for up to 9 months and sometime in the next weeks/months another kit will come along that is very different?

I really do think the AMD GitHub leak has thrown everything off and we're now seeing things completely out of context on top of the usual of not having all info anyway.

I don't know where PS5 will land in all this for power/price/etc but I can already hear and feel the 'oh shits' from the reveal. Just not clear if it is good or bad....

Devs already knew the final spec targets for both sides since E3. That's what all the insider info is based on.

 

[diffusionx]

the point im trying to make is that if there is a war of attrition going on MS would win easily.

Only if MS decides to throw endless piles of Office 365 money at Xbox. Which would be a terrible idea and one that I doubt their current CEO would be in favor of.

The Xbox business has to become sustainable on its own.

 

[TeamGhobad]

Only if MS decides to throw endless piles of Office 365 money at Xbox. Which would be a terrible idea and one that I doubt their current CEO would be in favor of.

The Xbox business has to become sustainable on its own.

im pretty sure it is, gamepass is a big winner for them.

 

[BattleScar]

exaggeration for effect. point is MS has a lot more money than Sony. it wasn't that long ago sony was struggling financially (still is) and was forced to sell a bunch of assets. their TV homeelectronic sales are down compared to the 90s. South Korean companies are making ground. its future is not certain. MS can afford to sell at a loss Sony can't.

Did you just ignore most of what I wrote?
Just cause Microsoft can afford to bear losses, doesn't mean that they will allow the Xbox division to be operating at a significant loss, for the benefit of Xbox fans.
I mean that's the entire point of the 2 SKU strategy is it not? So that they don't have to suffer tremendous losses selling their expensive console at far below cost.

And once again, Sony CAN affort to sell the PS5 at a small loss. A loss I'd wager is not much smaller than what Microsoft would tolerate.

the point im trying to make is that if there is a war of attrition going on MS would win easily.

What war of attrition? If Microsoft sells their console at a big loss and Sony sell theirs at a small loss or even at cost. The winner at the end of it all will be Sony because if their sales remain high due to their brand strength, they will lose less money in the short term and make more money in the long term. If their sales are not so strong, they can be much more aggressive with pricing than Microsoft can. It's much easier to go from cost to small loss, than it is to go from big loss to an even bigger loss, and justify that to your shareholders.

If Microsoft shareholders go ahead and approve Xbox going super aggressive and try to price Sony out of the market by leveraging their strong revenues in other areas, then that is called Predatory Pricing and is illegal. So good luck with that.

 

[demigod]

Seems I missed quite a bit, If you think there is that much of a difference in these machines power then you're going to be disappointed. They are both very close and Neither is under 10. I will stand on what I said they are both very competitive and the difference is minimal. You have a month a week and a few days until its official.

Looks like bitbydeath will win his bet.

 

[FranXico]

If Microsoft shareholders go ahead and approve Xbox going super aggressive and try to price Sony out of the market by leveraging their strong revenues in other areas, then that is called Predatory Pricing and is illegal. So good luck with that.

Good luck prosecuting MS for predatory pricing. Sony would go bust or bail out long before courts did anything about it, assuming the US government would ever dare to challenge them these days.

 

[Insane Metal]

Seems I missed quite a bit, If you think there is that much of a difference in these machines power then you're going to be disappointed. They are both very close and Neither is under 10. I will stand on what I said they are both very competitive and the difference is minimal. You have a month a week and a few days until its official.

Damn that's close to my birthday!

WOOHOOOooooooooooooo

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Devs already knew the final spec targets for both sides since E3. That's what all the insider info is based on.

Yeah I know that but I'm just wondering what specs the dev kit that devs have had for months is. Those AMD tests apparently have dates attached that were after the dev kit was out (not saying the GitHub stuff is necessarily representative). If a new, more representative kit is yet to go out it might explain why we have both 9.2TF (current dev kit) and 12/13TF (target retail spec).

 

[Fake]

Damn that's close to my birthday!

WOOHOOOooooooooooooo

I hate to break the surprise, but, this is for you.

 

[GermanZepp]

the point im trying to make is that if there is a war of attrition going on MS would win easily.

Stop

 

[Evilms]

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I don't mind being wrong but I am fairly confident in saying both machines are close in power with Xbox having a slight power advantage atm.

And when I say slight its within 10% right now.

Can also say with confidence the PS5 SSD solution is faster then the Xbox SSD.

And if I am wrong I will be okay with it as surprises do happen.

 

[Kazekage1981]

its gonna totally suck if both consoles dont have wifi6.

i dont believe in the current leaked specs of 9.2TFLOPS vs 12 TFLOPS. I think both consoles have passed the double digit threshold of TLOPS. What truly sells consoles are: games! games! games! games! Right guys?

 

[Little Chicken]

Happy new year, ladies and gents

 

[Nickolaidas]

People keep ignoring the deluge of similar insider hints in favor of their own head canon. It's really weird. Reminds me of last gen pre launch.

I wouldn't call the AMD tests leak headcanon, though ...

Consensus? Hah! There's the People's Front of Judea. And the Judean People's Front. And also the Popular Front, but his opinion doesn't matter. (Splitters!)

 

[it_wasn't_me]

im pretty sure it is, gamepass is a big winner for them.

When it's 1$

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Seems I missed quite a bit, If you think there is that much of a difference in these machines power then you're going to be disappointed. They are both very close and Neither is under 10. I will stand on what I said they are both very competitive and the difference is minimal. You have a month a week and a few days until its official.

Depends who.

 

[TheStruggler]

New consoles are typically sold at a loss, the problem with the PS3 it was sold at a HUGE loss on top of having a super high price out the gate, that they will never do again. The PS4 was profitable at day one (which it made sense to go conservative on specs) and I think between that and the influx of money from PSN subscriptions they are in a much better place financially this time around.

That and look at how much software Sony sells when compared to Microsoft

 

[TheStruggler]

Seems I missed quite a bit, If you think there is that much of a difference in these machines power then you're going to be disappointed. They are both very close and Neither is under 10. I will stand on what I said they are both very competitive and the difference is minimal. You have a month a week and a few days until its official.

If you have info couldnt you just pm us and say like why the tease, if they are that close and you know just say.

 

[Aceofspades]

A more articulated post that captured my exact thought about this leak. Kudos to Jeffram.

Here are the text of it: Credit to Jeffram from Reeeee:

"Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed"

 

[policestationx]

A more articulated post that captured my exact thought about this leak. Kudos to Jeffram.

Here are the text of it: Credit to Jeffram from Reeeee:

"Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed"

A user already called him for bs in that thread.

DF > Jeffram's headcanon

 

[Aceofspades]

A user already called him for bs in that thread.

BS on what? His thoughts? Did the other person provide evidence that disregard what was written?

 

[policestationx]

BS on what? His thoughts? Did the other person provide evidence that disregard what was written?

Yep the first person on reera that found GitHub AMD test data called him out for his nonsense.

 

[Aceofspades]

Yep the first person on reera that found GitHub AMD test data called him out for his nonsense.

What nonsense, link me to this callout, I couldn't find it

 

[policestationx]

What nonsense, link me to this callout, I couldn't find it

Page 4, Sangreal.

 

[mckmas8808]

the point im trying to make is that if there is a war of attrition going on MS would win easily.

To what end? You think Microsoft wants to do this?

 

[it_wasn't_me]

so i cant make a joke??? Maybe dont be so sensitive and yes i have been respectful. Ppl are putting up 2014 tweets ages ago and I laughed about it. Come on now.

And after all these years you're still the same, Dog! You didn't change at all. If you're trying to make us to look like fools....DON'T!

And this tweet is prime example isn't different than bunch of similar tweets of yours week ago, month ago, year ago, years ago.

 

[Aceofspades]

Page 4, Sangreal.

Pffff, he didn't refute a single point.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Pffff, he didn't refute a single point.

Yup, all he said was that the info concerning lockheart was incomplete. Basically, nadda. If that's 'calling sb out on his bullshit', have I got a bridge to sell policestationx .

 

[policestationx]

Pffff, he didn't refute a single point.

Because there's no point at all in that long Jeffram's headcanon list, oh another user called him out again.

 

[chigstoke]

Happy new year, ladies and gents

Your post confused me for a minute, I checked the clock and it's 17:58 here in the UK

Stop bloody time travelling.

But Happy New Year

 

[ProPsx]

butterfly effect for PS5 approaching !!