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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
This is turning into Perry Mason now.
The original comment I made...I even covered high quality visual and high performance modes. Don't try to spin me, I'm too heavy.
SonGoku
Member
Alright i just wanted to get it clear, you confused me a little with that last comment about well designed/engineered which is not exclusive to small designsThis is turning into Perry Mason now.
btw there is no high quality or performance with gonzalo performance
The only viable option for AAA is 1440p/30 fps to push next gen graphics
Imtjnotu
Member
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INC
Member
Ps5 related
www.techradar.com
Can't wait to see next gen VR, best thing this gen is psvr for me
Patent shows Sony’s PSVR 2 could have eye-tracking
Another patent suggests eye-tracking could show up in other hardware
Can't wait to see next gen VR, best thing this gen is psvr for me
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
That's relative to your expectations. While we're certain to see improvements to visual fidelity and realism, areas that have a lot of opportunity for growth are world density and dynamism/physics.
The age of the type of generational leap we saw with SNES to N64, or PS1 to PS2 is gone. Games like DOOM Eternal, Metro Exodus, and Cyberpunk will be considered "last-gen", but probably not to far off what to expect from "next-gen". Especially running on something like a 2070S up to a 2080ti. Again, both "last-gen" cards by the time next gen consoles roll around and we have Ampere on the market.
Visuals will be fine in the hands of ND or GG, but even still you notice how Sony is really hyping their SSD tech and not banging on GPU firepower?
xool
Member
Sony could just add more ROPs and TMUs, like they did this gen I think.
Polygon (setup/transformation) count ability remains the same, but raw pixel output is increased
LordOfChaos
Member
Ya no, 360 motherboards were:
Xenon
Zephyr
Falcon
Opus
Jasper
Trinity/Corona
Only with Jasper did RRoD get to "acceptable" and it was still rather loud, just not a wind turbine. Trinity/the Slim is where it got quiet.
The XBO was also quiet, but they only said it was large
Bani
Member
Please do not say so, I had all the Xbox 360 console and only the first was with the problem all the others were within the limits of normal, especially the last version, and for the noise again is the same
LordOfChaos
Member
Why did you have 7 360s if they all worked?
Anyways, everyone had their anecdotes but the statistics don't lie, the RRoD only got down to standard electronics failure rates by Jasper, and Jasper was still noticeably loud, just much improved from the wind turbine first generations. I'd have to do some advanced googling to find the failure rates by motherboard revision but I remember it clearly.
LSWilson
Member
My thought too. I dont want/need a smaller console than what we have already.Amazingly strange priorities to me. Like, you will take low framerates and a quiet console before high framerates and a noisy console?
Racer!
Member
Except its not like that at all. The equivalent to what youre suggesting, is actually a good looking snappy UI, or good graphics to wet your appetite for gameplay. What you are saying makes no sense logically. Does your beautifully designed console makes you wanna play Mario or Uncharted?? Like, "that box is so damn beautiful and whisper quiet, it so makes me wanna play a platformer"?
The problem is not that you want a beautiful well designed box on your tv rack. We all want that. The surreal thing is that you would choose that over what is the point of the device.
Chronos24
Member
Hmm...do you sit with the console right beside you in a tiny apartment? If so, I could see it as some sort of a problem. If not, im a little mind blown. Well, we are all different
I do not live in a small space and my console sits about 6 feet away in an open back stand with a door in front of it. But, it can not be denied that these consoles were loud period. I understand people wear headsets and headphones and do not hear their console that's fine. Some of us have families and need to be able to hear everything else too. YouTube loud PS4 consoles and that'll be a big reminder just how loud they were and that's what I dealt with (until the 1200 model) then the pro came out and loud again but not as bad as og PS4.
Racer!
Member
I have a PS4 Pro jet, so I know that can be irritating. I have placed it so it doesnt bother me. Took me five minutes and a longer cable. Would I like a quieter console. Yeah. Would I rather have an underpowered console for the next 7 years because I cant be bothered to come up with a solution to that small problem? Hell no.
Negotiator
Banned
You need more shading power to jump from 1440p to 4K...
Adding more ROPs isn't a silver bullet (PS4 Pro 64 vs XB1X 32 ROPs).
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Racer!
Member
Feeling identified?
Not at the expense of the entire purpose of the console, thats whats dont make any sense to me. Its like participating in a race for fastest time, choosing the slowest car because it looks good, is quiet, with low fuel consumption. Well, some does that also I suppose
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Let it go, man. My design philosophy/speculation for a console doesn't come "at the expense of the entire purpose of the console" like your straw man argument suggests.
Your PS4 Pro is an example of what not to do. I'm not putting my console in the closet or around the corner with a long hdmi cable.
ResilientBanana
Member
Isn't this how the PS4 is set up now with the RAM on the bottom of the board?
Chronos24
Member
Can't we have a quiet console that's also powerful???
KingT731
Member
Sure can. Just plan on the console having a large (and likely expensive) cooler.
LordOfChaos
Member
Most bill of materials I can find don't even bother listing the heatsink, this one lumps it into "Mechanicals" along with plastics, the enclosure, other metal mechanicals, and totals those all including cooling to 19 dollars.
technology.ihs.com
Where did the idea that more cooling would be exorbitantly expensive come from? It really doesn't need to be anything exotic, look at the tiny footprint the heatsink in the PS4 actually took, it just needs to be larger and with an updated fan to up the TDP.
404 - Page not found :: Omdia
technology.ihs.com
Where did the idea that more cooling would be exorbitantly expensive come from? It really doesn't need to be anything exotic, look at the tiny footprint the heatsink in the PS4 actually took, it just needs to be larger and with an updated fan to up the TDP.
KingT731
Member
I probably should state that I meant "expensive by comparison."
Racer!
Member
Let it go, man. My design philosophy/speculation for a console doesn't come "at the expense of the entire purpose of the console" like your straw man argument suggests.
Your PS4 Pro is an example of what not to do. I'm not putting my console in the closet or around the corner with a long hdmi cable.
Strawman arguments lol.
Its EXACTLY what youre saying here. Your exact words:
The experience is not suppose to be the box. Its suppose to be what you see on screen and what comes out of your loudspeakers
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SonGoku
Member
lol its not just me, the market expects a next gen console with a clear cut distinction in graphics, Cerny said as much on the wired interview
They can't just sell a 4k PS4, they already done that with the Pro
Funny how the sprite->3D and PS1->PS2 is always brought up on these discussions, the same was said at the start of this gen: That next gen consoles would just run prettier version of ps360 games, the equivalent of "pc high settings" they said and oh boy they where wrong. PS3->PS4 games are a night and day difference
All those games you listed will look the same on base PS4 and $3000 PC with the exception of a few extra effects, textures and resolution of course.
I said this before, even if we get a 14.2TF Kaiju the jump in GPU is minuscule compared to the jump from the latency ridden slow as molasses laptop HDDs. Its easily a 100x jump, why would they not hype that up? That doesn't mean they will bottleneck the system with an under powered 1440p GPU.
Also noticed how they keep hammering on increased rendering speed thanks to SSD? It needs a powerful GPU to keep up with it
TMUs are inside each DCU/CU and ROPs where increased to make up for bandwith. ROPs are part of the frontend btw, if they beef up the frontend it would be trivial to add more CUs
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pawel86ck
Banned
- monolithic die ~22.4mm by ~14.1mm
- 16 Samsung K4ZAF325BM-HC18 in clamshell configuration
- memory vrm seems like overkill with multiple Fairchild/ON Semiconductor FDMF3170 power stages controlled by an MP2888 from MPS
- 3 Samsung K4AAG085WB-MCRC, 2 of those close to the NAND acting as DRAM cache (unusual 2GB DRAM per 1 TB NAND)
- 4 NAND packages soldered to the PCB which are TH58LJT2T24BAEG from Toshiba
- PS5016-E16 from Phison
SonGoku
Member
Yeah this was posted on may
edit: going to youtubers for leaks, its not really a good idea. They are bottom of the barrel feeders that regurgitate info from forums and Reddit.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
You're still talking about your expectations. I'm ok with Scarlett's 4x CPU and 2x GPU, or PS5 rumors(Gonzalo, OQA). For the first few years, I don't expect next-gen games to look much better than what PC will be doing over the next year. We can revisit Metro Exodus, DOOM Eternal, and Cyberpunk console vs PC comparison in the future. Just playing the waiting game now.
SonGoku
Member
Its a next gen console, people expect a next gen leap, even Cerny mentioned it before
PS4 Metro Exodus already out is not that far from PC, last DOOM game looks on par on PS4 as well, those type of games wont sell PS5s
But you'll see, thankfully for you its a win win
So PS4 visuals then?
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Fake
Member
To be honest, every next gen start its not necessary mean 'next gen' games. Most of the early games from next gen or will be multi-plat or cross-over with previous generation.
You're still talking about your expectations. I'm ok with Scarlett's 4x CPU and 2x GPU, or PS5 rumors(Gonzalo, OQA). For the first few years, I don't expect next-gen games to look much better than what PC will be doing over the next year. We can revisit Metro Exodus, DOOM Eternal, and Cyberpunk console vs PC comparison in the future. Just playing the waiting game now.
Devs always need more time to understand the machine, they can't extract 'Last of Us' for PS3 or Forza for 'Xbox 360' in early years for example. I mean, give 3 years or more for some 'Horizon Zero Dawn' equivalent.
SonGoku
Member
Even early next gen games like killzone, knack (not joking) and second son looked a clear step above anything on PS3
Ryse and The Order where impressive early games
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Fake
Member
Killzone is a techshow no doubt, but that horrible framerate and dynamic res don't say much about 'pushing to limits'.
My best example of all will always be Horizon Zero Dawn because its an open world game, with is a very demanding type of game and both Killzone and Horizon share the same engine, but just one of them is native 1080p at fixed 30 frames per second. Thats where the perfomance was extract.
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TLZ
Banned
SonGoku
Member
Don't misunderstand me, i didn't say killzone pushed the limits or that it was the best next gen had to offer. I said even a launch game like killzone was a clear step above on anything PS3
Framerate and resolution was locked in the main game, MP went with dynamic rez to push an unlocked ~40-50ps
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
We're still not getting to heart of the matter, which is that you believe hardware must be a certain way because of your own expectations. Even with Navi 10 next-gen games can be sexy.So PS4 visuals then?
TLZ
This thread isn't gonna get to 20k posts and a million views on it's own...
Fake
Member
Fair enough, but still the game plays horrible if you add that terrible input lag.
SonGoku
Member
Its decades of conditioning the average joe to expect generational leaps with new consoles, PS4 was no exception and certainly not PS5 either.
Even Mark Cerny mentioned this, you know.. the PS5 Architect
At 1440p sure
SonGoku
Member
@TLZ
This thread isn't gonna get to 20k posts and a million views on it's own...
sonomamashine
Member
Pc's are leapfrogging anyway (console ports), (guessing) maybe AMD is planning on releasing Rx 5800xt (56CU's) Rx 5800 (52CU's), lite version (rx 5800) for next gen with (RT) ?
* 52CU @ 1800Mhz = 12 Tf
* 56CU @ 1800Mhz = 12.9 Tf
(console clocks)
* 52CU @ 1550Mhz = 10.3 Tf
* 56CU @ 1550Mhz = 11.1 Tf
navi 10Lite was a test chip (available at the time)
SonGoku
Member
If you mean hw thats correct, RTX2080 will be midrange by the time consoles launch
Graphically PC games don't look drastically better, last gen the gap was much more apparent and yet still next gen games turned out to be a step above any last gen PC games
On 7nm DUV 10TF is a reasonable expectation although i think they can break 11TF with 56CU @ 1550Mhz-1600Mhz = 11.1 TF-11.4TF
On 7nm EUV 12-13TF is a pretty safe conservative expectation
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sonomamashine
Member
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joe_zazen
Member
Was this debunked? & Could the memory vrm overkill be related to ssd pcie gddr6 stuff? I have read that pcie nvme drives have power and heat issues and often times get throttled because of it.
Bani
Member
I'm not telling you you're lying but you're not telling the truth, why I had 4 Xbox 360, the answer is because I hacked some of them, only the last one was without hack, so now you are happy
xool
Member
not as far as I know - how would it be debunked anyway - unless someone posted an actual image of a dev-kit board that was different. I don't think anyone found any obvious errors in the claims.
afaik NVMe throttling is due to overheating. Without knowing how the individual FDMF3170 s are connected to what I'd be guessing. [edit - there's 3 different kinds of memory in there - I'd expect each type to have its own power controller at a minimum - maybe that's why there seems to be more power ICs than usual..]
[edit2] I dunno if they checked to see if the PowerIC's were actually connected to memory or to the APU .. it's possible that the APU has multiple power inputs, especially if they are separately controlling clocks/power on GPU/individual CPU cores .. (but see below)
[edit3] - maybe the "overkill" phrase is just a poorly formed opinion - the MP2888 is a ten phase controller - so needs 10 mosfets .. it might look like a lot, but it's could be just a normal set up
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