Are we sure it's Polaris and not some semi-custom hybrid with Polaris features?
CLRX* Version: GCN 1.1
* https://github.com/CLRX/CLRX-mirror/wiki/GcnIsa
It was Polaris with some Vega features backported like rapid packed math.
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It was Polaris with some Vega features backported like rapid packed math.
Well I don see 80 CUs happening. Too big in terms of die area and too much power consumption at those clocks.
I could see 60CUs, 96 rops, 384 bit bus happening though, 50% bigger than navi 10 so 375mm^2 ish then 75mm^2 for a zen2 die and we are at 450mm^2. You might be able to get that to sub 400mm^2 with 7nm euv but 80 CU seems too big.
There is also the power consumption and an 80 CU beast running at 2Ghz would consume 500 is watts on current 7nm. Even with 20% savings from 7nm euv it is still 400 watts.
60CUs is probably doable in a 300W envelope with the zen2 cores if the clockspeed is in the sweet spot so say 1.6ish GHz, maybe more if process allows.
bitbydeath
Member
At least people have finally accepted that it won't be under 10TF's.
TLZ
Banned
What about 54CUs? How many watts there?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
The circular logic being used is great. Data miner leaks clock speeds -> Random forumite retweets, adding TF number -> Forum posts random forumite's retweet + sauce -> wccftech reads retweet on forum and posts article on the retweet with added details from a random forumite posted on a forum by some other rando as being directly from Data Miner -> Therefore PS5 is a 2080, the tech media reported it.
We used to play this game at camp it's called "Human Telephone" and there's a variant called "Pass it on".
We used to play this game at camp it's called "Human Telephone" and there's a variant called "Pass it on".
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SonGoku
Member
Its not like there are any idle resources on the X... the higher clocked jags are use to keep up with the beefier gpu and push more stable framerateNo game is built for the higher clocked Jaguars and with Xbox One X specs in mind, you are reaching there....
Its fair because next gen will be targeting 4k not 1080p
AAA games tend to be dynamic 4k on the x
It is if they target 4k, for 1440p its fine
False, the xboneS is the best performing version, the game is GPU bound and should have been dynamic 4k on the X to maintain a locked 30fps
False, the PS4 GPU FP jump was bigger without even taking into account architecture improvements old terascale->gcn, which was just as big if not bigger than the gnc->rdna jump
Not to mention the rez jump is much bigger this time if the target is native 4k
Flawed logic
How can i tell the graphics from a cutscene trailer?
Crossgen won't be as impressive a next gen exclusive
Did i say phill was wrong?
9TF is anemic to push mostly 4k next gen games, its better suited for a 1440p-1800p box
If MS intends the next box to stay as close to the 4k mark as possible it'll be 11TF min, let alone if the intention is to push higher fps
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sonomamashine
Member
You are funny, if you think that MS lowballed Halo next gen trailer for cross gen rather than impress people to sell more units for a full capacity graphics you are wrong, every game shown at E3 comes with a downgrade, so you telling us MS wont go hard ?
bitbydeath
Member
You are funny, if you think that MS lowballed Halo next gen trailer for cross gen rather than impress people to sell more units for a full capacity graphics you are wrong, every game shown at E3 comes with a downgrade, so you telling us MS wont go hard ?
It looked like MS were pushing for it to be 60FPS on Xbox One which is why it looked the way it did.
BUT resolution won't be the only graphic driver next-gen. Maybe they low-balled it graphically but are planning on using Ray-Tracing as the major differentiator.
sonomamashine
Member
Thats how 4k games will run at 60 (native) can be better if they use CAS.
If that was the case they would already made the trailer with RT, remember RT with 1080p not 4k.
SonGoku
Member
Don't put words in my mouth, my points are:You are funny, if you think that MS lowballed Halo next gen trailer for cross gen rather than impress people to sell more units for a full capacity graphics you are wrong, every game shown at E3 comes with a downgrade, so you telling us MS wont go hard ?
- How can you tell graphics from a cutscene trailer?
- Next gen exclusives will always be more impressive than crossgen games
Fake
Member
Even more astonishing someone needs to say the obvious.
bitbydeath
Member
The RT hardware isn't out til next year remember.
sonomamashine
Member
My point is that companies always lie, specially at E3, you need to check history pal.
I do remember, what i said is that the trailer they showed was native 4k, if they wanted to put a RT trailer it would be 1080p, you must know that MS & SONY already got RT samples if they gonna put it on the box, you can say that for other studios but 343 is MS.
bitbydeath
Member
Nah, they could probably reach or at the very least get close to native 8K in its current state. 4K and RT will be possible.
Edit: Keep in mind this is being made for X1 @ 1.2TF. X1X would be 4K or close to it native.
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sonomamashine
Member
Well...hey good luck.
Fortuneelsewhere
Member
I've been following this thread closely and all speculation around. And all I can say is that the PS5 almost certainly will have a 56 CU NAVI GPU clocked at 2.0 ghz.
This align with older leaks talking about power ranging from 12 to 14 tf. one even talked about it being not decided at that time ( I think that was Sony and AMD still pushing the clocks of Gonzalo - 1.8 ghz and now I think final clock at 2.0 ghz per Oberon leak). This and Reiner/ Collin information about ps5 being stronger than scarlet further corroborate my assumption.
If you pay attention all the information is already in the open. Just look at it free from bias regarding plataform preferences and prior information regarding what should be or not be possible doing regarding console engineering.
I think next gen dev kits surprised many developers. It will surprise us also.
I will say no more and time will vindicate me.
Cheers
This align with older leaks talking about power ranging from 12 to 14 tf. one even talked about it being not decided at that time ( I think that was Sony and AMD still pushing the clocks of Gonzalo - 1.8 ghz and now I think final clock at 2.0 ghz per Oberon leak). This and Reiner/ Collin information about ps5 being stronger than scarlet further corroborate my assumption.
If you pay attention all the information is already in the open. Just look at it free from bias regarding plataform preferences and prior information regarding what should be or not be possible doing regarding console engineering.
I think next gen dev kits surprised many developers. It will surprise us also.
I will say no more and time will vindicate me.
Cheers
bitbydeath
Member
X1 S - 1080P native or close
X1X - 4K native or close
X2 - 8K native or close (without RT)
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sonomamashine
Member
Fake
Member
Some Xbox One X games are native 4K, so I don't get what're saying. Besides, 8K not necessary means 'native 8k'.
As recent 4k games, can be archieve by checkerboard rendering, temporal injection, temporal scaling or dynamic resolution. Even next gen could create a even more modern way to archieve 8k without wasting so much resources.
Just follow Rich Let from Digital Foundry. 'Never' compare consoles to PCs. Optimization on consoles are far ahead from pc because of low level acess API.
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bitbydeath
Member
I like you.
The point is that instead of shooting for 8K they could use that remaining power for RT.
Do you really think the next Xbox will be more or less on par with the X1X?
sonomamashine
Member
I don't know about you but my expectations are far from 2Ghz, 14Tf+ ( i don't know lately we broke some CU and clock records).
and yes i already said CAS.
the level of details 8k gonna offer gonna be very dry
.so wich is it ? native 8k or RT ?
at least 2X onex GPU.
this 1440p 30fps looks feasible on next gen.
SonGoku
Member
and how is that relevant to what I've said?
If anything it further drives my point that its pointless to draw conclusions from a cutscene trailer
bitbydeath
Member
the level of details 8k gonna offer gonna be very dry
Well it's already confirmed to be coming to the X1S.
RT would be more impressive than a resolution boost.
So less resolution than current gens offering?
It would certainly subvert expectations Game of Thrones style if they pull out a machine that can't meet current standards.
sonomamashine
Member
What i said is that they must showed the best of what 4k 60fps can offer on next gen because companies always do that at E3.
? Halo ? Yes so...
So no native 8k then.
Nooooo, i mean you can play a game on the same amount of details at 1440p 30fps (details are amazing), of course we gonna get 1080p, 1440p, 4k, and sahara 8k.
bitbydeath
Member
So the details were already limited.
Maybe they will make it an option of choosing one or the other. RT if done right would show a true generational difference though.
OK, details should be the same across systems. Res, framerate, loading and RT should be the main differentiators between gens.
sonomamashine
Member
it's a next gen console + game by MS at E3, best believe they delivered all they could on that trailer 4k 60fps.
either you dedicate some hardware for RT or you don't.
i don't get that part because i said something else (please explain i didnt understood) what i said is that you can play a game like "the heretic" trailer with the same details at 30 fps, if you are talking about next gen difference between x2 & ps5 then yes (secret sauce) can change a lot of things like current gen.
SmokSmog
Member
Navi is 251mm2 in 7nm
N7+ has identical yield rates to N7 and will steadily improve, while also offering a 20% increase to transistor density. There's also a 10% performance uplift or 15% power efficiency increase. AMD will take advantage of the former in their fourth-gen Ryzen which they've confirmed to use TSMC's 7nm+, while Huawei will most likely take advantage of the latter in their mobile SoC flagships due out in devices at the end of the year.
In theory, custom Navi with 80cus would take around 400mm2 using 7nmEUV
Zen2 chiplet is 72~mm2 with 32mb L3 7nm
PS5 Zen2 with only 8mbl3 on 7nm EUV would be easy >50mm2
This is doable but PS5 would cost no less than 500$ with 100$ loss
N7+ has identical yield rates to N7 and will steadily improve, while also offering a 20% increase to transistor density. There's also a 10% performance uplift or 15% power efficiency increase. AMD will take advantage of the former in their fourth-gen Ryzen which they've confirmed to use TSMC's 7nm+, while Huawei will most likely take advantage of the latter in their mobile SoC flagships due out in devices at the end of the year.
In theory, custom Navi with 80cus would take around 400mm2 using 7nmEUV
Zen2 chiplet is 72~mm2 with 32mb L3 7nm
PS5 Zen2 with only 8mbl3 on 7nm EUV would be easy >50mm2
This is doable but PS5 would cost no less than 500$ with 100$ loss
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bitbydeath
Member
You mean native 8K right?
Checkerboarding isn't as intensive and upscaling costs nothing, even your TV can do it.
Yes, with it being built in mind for XB1S.
It'll be a case by case basis.
Difference between current and next.
Current hitting near 4K obviously puts next-gen over 4K.
Stuart360
Member
But why would devs target 8k wheh barely anyone has 8ktv's. Even by the END of next gen, i doubt 8ktv's will make up more than 10% of the customer base.
Its going to be hard enough hitting 4k next gen while giving a noticeble jump in graphics over this gen (i still believe there will be a lot of next gen games that look like ps4 games at 4k, thats just the price of 4k).
Its like the whole 60fps talk that we always get before a new generation, when in reality 80% of next gen games will still be 30fps, like always.
bitbydeath
Member
Yeah, I agree with you 100%
SonGoku
Member
and i said:
You can't judge a games visuals from a cutscene trailer and that a crossgen game won't be as impressive as next gen exclusives
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
R&C and HZD were fantastic uses of it. Do that with jacked up visuals and 60fps Zen2 flex option.
Negotiator
Banned
RDR2 is 100GB with 1080p textures (not even XB1X has a 4K texture pack).
8K is just a pipedream IMHO, especially with digital games and SSDs becoming the norm.
Imtjnotu
Member
Call it a day. I'll take that any day of the week with PS5 and be find if it runs at 60fps
Mass Shift
Member
They have?
llien
Banned
That's one strange argument.
I haven't. I expect something along 5700 <=> 5700XT lines, but not much more than that.
And I wish we'd talk in terms of GPUs, not confusing tflops, where people don't know if it is GCN or RDNA flops.
bhunachicken
Member
According to IGN, a 2080TI isn't able to do Shadow of the Tomb Raider at 60fps in 4k:
But the PS4 Pro is able to do the same game at 30fps in 4K (reduced settings, of course), so 4k @ 60fps on a PS5 shouldn't be out of the question.
But the PS4 Pro is able to do the same game at 30fps in 4K (reduced settings, of course), so 4k @ 60fps on a PS5 shouldn't be out of the question.
ANIMAL1975
Member
There are no GCN or RDNA Tflops. Floating point operations per second, are what they are, no matter the architecture! A measure unit.
So if the initial devkits where really Vega and their target specs where X or Y Tflops, why would that change with Navi devkits when it's even easier to get there?
Edit: iu welcome
So if the initial devkits where really Vega and their target specs where X or Y Tflops, why would that change with Navi devkits when it's even easier to get there?
Edit: iu welcome
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llien
Banned
No shit, Watson.
But we are measuring/assessint GRAPHIC POWER of the GPU, not it's computational capabilities, in TFlops.
So when one says "I expect it to be X tflops", to translate it into graphics performance, one needs to know, if it is Vega or Navi that one is referencing.
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ANIMAL1975
Member
That's not what I'm talking about Sherlock,
I'm talking about the theories that, because Navi is getting better performance with the same Tflops in Vega devkits, the engineers that planed the intire next generation machines with that computational specs in mind, will now downball them because.... are getting better graphics performance
... So no, it wasn't a response or an attack at your previous post, or i would have quoted you.
TeamGhobad
Banned
xool
Member
sonomamashine
Member
All im going to say is:
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Bani
Member
Halo Infinite is Gameplay treiler and that graphics represent game on what console we dont know,next gen or curent gen,we will se
So which is it? PS4 and XBO is the baseline comparison or mid-gen refreshes? It seems like you jump from one to other, whichever suits your narrative. The gen started with 1080p target and mid-gen refreshes targeted 4k. You were shown an article where Phil himself says that 4k was the target of XBX and now they will focus on other areas. But you keep with your "The power equal to 2 XBXs is not enough for next gen 4k, they need 11TF Navi!!!"
Besides we don't know if 4k native and 60fps will even be the standart for next gen. It could still be 4k native/dynamic res and 30/60 fps.
If you can so confidently say that they tend to be dynamic you have several examples you know of that show this tendency. There are games which use dynamic res but they are not majority especially the ones with 30fps target.
I wasn't talking about PS3 to PS4 jump. I was talking PS4 to PS5 according to data what komachi has shared. And you keep mid gen refreshes as your reference point for current gen and pretend it's the right way to compare gen to gen performance improvements which is wrong on so many levels. But keep pretending it's all good.
And comparing gen to gen performance leaps isn't fair either because Moor's law is slowing down while costs are going up so expecting same performance leaps from gen to gen is also completley wrong.
You can't tell graphics from a trailer but you know what the next gen graphics will look like and that they will need 11TF Navi to reach their next gen 4k. Yeah, ok.
I realised that discussions with you are futile. You base everything off your assumption that next gen 4k needs 11TF Navi although you don't have any solid basis for this assumption. So yeah, I'm done here.
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I think there might be some truth in these double digit TF rumors and GCN based devkits. They basically gave out devkits with something like vega 64 in it and that's why these double digit TF rumors exist when in reality it's the performance target and overclocked 5700 or 5700xt basically provide this target.
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