Support NeoGAF

[Ellery]

Yea, they're buying multiple game studios to not have them make games.

Glad to hear. I heard a lot of rumors about big studios like Platinum etc, but the actual Studios I saw Microsoft buy weren't that impressive.

Maybe we can get some surprises at E3, because I want Microsoft to be as strong as possible to put my high end PC to good use.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Here you go guys, shu dropped the bomb

He is such a master troll.

 

[DeepEnigma]

You gonna hate when it will wear out and go to the store to buy a new one, they gonna make alot of money from those swapable SSD's.

Yeah, so scary that Apple and most Laptops worth their salt come equipped with them now, and ditched the mechanical chug.

It was such FUD, because you will never write more than you read. And reading does not impact the endurance of an SSD.

 

[DrDamn]

I dont know why you keep fighting with everyone about this based on simple facts that everyone has direct access to online.

Everyone? You say that like that's the consensus. There are no simple facts, No definitive answers on what spec the machines are - that's my point. Yet you get repeated random comments along the lines of "9 vs 12 then, that's quite the gap" ... "9 vs 12 is the norm" ... "9 vs 12 called it!" etc. There are no confirmed numbers, just guesstimates based on limited, contradictory and potentially misunderstood information.

 

[JAMMA]

.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

If Checkerboard comes with the same shimmer artifacts next gen it would be unfortunate. The rain in Resident Evil 2 on the Pro looked atrocious compared to the X. It would be nice if this is also fixed on the BC for PS4 games.

To be fair, that was RE2 to blame for that one, as they used a really piss poor SSR implementation. You could have run it on a base Xbox one even and had it look fine.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I have seen a few people calling the github thing a benchmark.
Is it fair to the meaning of benchmarks to do that ?
I mean the lack of context on every data available on there is blatant.
The first two NAVI GPU are a 36 CUs and a 40 CUs, those were released around the time the "leak" happened (mid 2019), AMD tested the BC system of Cerny with NAVI and the only navi product they were ready to test it on (mid 2018), and did the same for microsoft but later, so with Arden (mid 2019), maybe the one that will go inside Series X or maybe not.
that is only speculation on my part, the fact that the PS4 is 36 CUs and NAVI started as this, is weird since they have GPUs with more CUs, maybe they are linked, maybe the RX5700 was the PS5 GPU if a 2019 launch had happened, and even then it would have been quite weird.

It's not quite as weird if sony were targeting a more traditional console form factor. We now know for a fact that Microsoft for their part has gone in a very different direction from past consoles, which probably makes their higher target with a possibly larger GPU make a lot more sense. It's possible that if Series X didn't go with its current form factor it would potentially be in roughly the same range as what's been rumored for PS5 based on the GitHub leak.

 

[splattered]

Everyone? You say that like that's the consensus. There are no simple facts, No definitive answers on what spec the machines are - that's my point. Yet you get repeated random comments along the lines of "9 vs 12 then, that's quite the gap" ... "9 vs 12 is the norm" ... "9 vs 12 called it!" etc. There are no confirmed numbers, just guesstimates based on limited, contradictory and potentially misunderstood information.

People are commenting on what's been shown and/or information given so far. Why does that upset you so much?

I dont get people on here harassing Heisenberg for telling us what his sources have said along the way. It's not his fault two different sources have said two different things.

I suppose if he clarified if BOTH source numbers are from recent conversations might help the situation.

Getting numbers a year ago vs a month ago is a big difference.

If he goes back and asks both sources to confirm numbers this weekend and comes back and still reports the difference then you know something is off.

 

[Agnostic2020]

It's not quite as weird if sony were targeting a more traditional console form factor. We now know for a fact that Microsoft for their part has gone in a very different direction from past consoles, which probably makes their higher target with a possibly larger GPU make a lot more sense. It's possible that if Series X didn't go with its current form factor it would potentially be in roughly the same range as what's been rumored for PS5 based on the GitHub leak.

Form factor doesn't mean much imo. X1 og is 35% bigger than ps4 and yet 40% weaker.

 

[JAMMA]

.

 

[DaMonsta]

If Checkerboard comes with the same shimmer artifacts next gen it would be unfortunate. The rain in Resident Evil 2 on the Pro looked atrocious compared to the X. It would be nice if this is also fixed on the BC for PS4 games.

Most games it was pretty difficult to tell a difference. Especially if you don't know what to look for.

 

[Mass Shift]

Form factor doesn't mean much imo. X1 og is 35% bigger than ps4 and yet 40% weaker.

To the X1 and PS4, sure form factor wasn't that important.

But it means alot if you've got 52-56 CUs as the Series X is rumored to have.

 

[DrDamn]

People are commenting on what's been shown and/or information given so far. Why does that upset you so much?

Not upset . Just pointing out that whenever there are suggestions PS5 might be 11-ish, or XSX might be ~10-ish then the 9 vs 12 brigade trots out. It's odd to me to define your preferred platform not in terms of what it is capable of, but in terms of it's advantage over your non-preferred platform. That's just how some people are though.

Personally I think that whether it is 9/10 or 11/12 there will be no gap between the two in any notable way GPU wise. The differences will be games, services and eco-systems.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

Form factor doesn't mean much imo. X1 og is 35% bigger than ps4 and yet 40% weaker.

I think Microsoft did this to avoid ever having another RROD issue and from what I have hear the XB1 consoles are whisper quiet (not that my PS4 has ever been super loud, but I do hear the fan on certain games).

 

[sinnergy]

I think Microsoft did this to avoid ever having another RROD issue and from what I have hear the XB1 consoles are whisper quiet (not that my PS4 has ever been super loud, but I do hear the fan on certain games).

And One X is smaller than PS4 PRO and 40 % more powerful and no RROD, Imagine Series X

 

[McHuj]

I'd say all his sources are lying through their teeth or do not know better, simple as that. These are the facts (as in verifiable information that is out there): The AMD leak is real. Microsoft went with a completely unique console design for maximum cooling.

If you want to believe Heisenberg's source #1, then Microsoft is running a 56 CU (AMD Leak) APU at 1.4 GHz? Then why do they need the maximum amount of cooling? So that's not realistic.

I don't think they're lying, they just simply might not understand the technology or are filling in the details themselves based on assumptions. Just because someone is a developer doesn't mean they have access to all the details or even understand the hardware. Don't take that as me saying they're stupid, but really the people who need to have access to those details are very few and only the ones working likely on the rendering engine.

Now as to the X1X design, if MS delivers anything less than 11TF, I think they engineered a bad design. That SOC is huge and the form factor is designed with cooling first in mind. If they can't deliver 11+ TF, then I think they are wasting money and needlessly driving up costs by going with such a large design.

What is perplexing is the leaked 320-bit bus. If that's the case, I can see the X1X being bandwidth starved in some scenarios and not being able to truly utilize the GPU to full capability.

 

[Mriverz]

It's not quite as weird if sony were targeting a more traditional console form factor. We now know for a fact that Microsoft for their part has gone in a very different direction from past consoles, which probably makes their higher target with a possibly larger GPU make a lot more sense. It's possible that if Series X didn't go with its current form factor it would potentially be in roughly the same range as what's been rumored for PS5 based on the GitHub leak.

i see how people but took the github and ran with it. But the problem lies in Oberon Native which is still a mystery all we know is they had that thing jacked up to 2.0. Trying find anything that says what Oberon native is.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

And One X is smaller than PS4 PRO and 40 % more powerful and no RROD, Imagine Series X

Hopefully both next gen consoles have some super improved cooling systems in them, I am honestly interested in how they are built, I can't wait for the iFixit teardowns! The PS5 really has me intrigued though with the 'V' shape design of the dev kit, you know that is done for a purpose, so it will be interesting to see if any of that design makes its way to the final launch console!

 

[Mriverz]

https://www.playstationlifestyle.ne...y-ubisoft-all-back-catalog-previous-consoles/

 

[DrDamn]

And One X is smaller than PS4 PRO and 40 % more powerful and no RROD, Imagine Series X

It's a really well engineered machine, MS definitely have the form and experience for heat control and noise. Hopefully the funky designs and patents are indicators that Sony will do better this time.

 

[LED Guy?]

He did not say that.

He didn't? I must be wrong then, I remember he said something like that or maybe I got conflicted from the amount of insiders.

 

[LED Guy?]

But he didn't say mid feb ? You can go to his posts . I m not defending him but let's not put words in his mouth ? He said just like psm1 about the date .

OK I got conflicted LOL!!

 

[DrDamn]

https://www.playstationlifestyle.ne...y-ubisoft-all-back-catalog-previous-consoles/

It would be fantastic if some of these game company head hochos could have some lessons in being unambiguous. It's partly our fault for over analysing everything said, but this statement isn't really definitive is it?

Those consoles will be running almost all the back catalog of the previous consoles. It will be something new in the industry. It will help the old generations to continue to be big consoles on the market for years to come.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

What does Server Side Rendering have to do with anything? RE2 isn't an online-only game like Monster Hunter (which did also have the terrible shimmer).

Screen Space Reflections

Edit: MHW is on MT framework, which resident evil used to use, they share a lot of shaders and the like. Their SSR shaders have been a bit shit for a while, to be honest. Everything else is spot on (except for HDR but then that's messed up in a hell of a lot of games).

 

[Mriverz]

It would be fantastic if some of these game company head hochos could have some lessons in being unambiguous. It's partly our fault for over analysing everything said, but this statement isn't really definitive is it?

ya could be just base models idk. But i do know ambiguous and riddles was in alot of people 2020 resolution

 

[Ellery]

https://www.playstationlifestyle.ne...y-ubisoft-all-back-catalog-previous-consoles/

Nice find. Thanks for sharing.

Quotes like that get my hopes up, but I can't fool myself into believing actual FULL BC is going to happen. He probably just means PS4 games.

 

[Sinthor]

I have to say, I think everybody is going to be disappointed if they are going to just judge these consoles on teraflop performance.

I'd be shocked if FP32 performance is close to 9TF with Series X or PS5.

You're talking $400 range for GPU's to get that level of performance with an AMD chip, and a console would never have a PSU or Thermal's to manage a chip like that anyway.

Exactly. I think expectations need to be lowered.

 

[ghausst]

How would a switch without screen work ? If a switchpro exist, and it being equivalent to PS4 pro, isn't it possible to put something about the same numbers inside a more classic controller that you can plug to any screen and play ?

 

[Agnostic2020]

OK I got conflicted LOL!!

Yea I saw you found it . But he did say both actually. So we are both correct . Tommy we r coming for you if you turn out fake

 

[Reindeer]

I have to say, I think everybody is going to be disappointed if they are going to just judge these consoles on teraflop performance.

I'd be shocked if FP32 performance is close to 9TF with Series X or PS5.

You're talking $400 range for GPU's to get that level of performance with an AMD chip, and a console would never have a PSU or Thermal's to manage a chip like that anyway.

I hope you were not serious. RTX 2080 mobile runs in laptops with far less breathing headroom than what consoles will have.

 

[oxman2k]

Really hope the ps5 isn't 9tf and the xsx 12,and it's not because i'm a sony fanboy.i want the best graphics and performance from them for my money if the xsx is more powerful i'm worried it will be held back by support for the xbox one one x etc and developers won't bother to use it's full potential. And the price will hold back sales and multi platform games won't use it's extra power either.Then the ps5 will have better exclusives and sell more but will lack power to really push gaming to the next level,I hope they are similar in power around 12tf and price so we get the best out of both.

 

[joe_zazen]

This seems like an important time to remind folks that "insiders" can be wrong in a non-malicious way. Information you get 6 months ago could be for plans that have since changed.

Its the folks who try to assure you with 100% certainty that they're right which I don't trust.

great post. Further, there are three types of people in every argument:

• Those who fight for this side or that side
• Those who are looking for truth/ honesty
• Those who mix the two

The most highly evolved people fall into the middle category. Don't expect to see many in gaming forums.

I want to be in the middle, but i struggle. My flaw is that i have a real desire to fight for the underdog. Sometimes that means pulling for Bernie Sanders, sometimes for donald trump; sometimes for amd, sometimes for Intel...

also, there is this viscous undercurrent amongst posters at both sites that want to destroy people for sins, real or imagined. Afaik, gaf has no actual blood on its hands unlike ree, so that is good.

I agree with you on this, I think the full final specs are only known by a handful of people and really in the end I am willing to put 100% trust in Mark Cerny on whatever he decides for the PS5, I know he is going to put together an even more balanced system that is even easier to program for than the PS4, I think he did an amazing job with the PS4 by listening to developers and putting together a great system!

i have confidence too. However, if he was told to make a $399 2019 console, then told to try and make that product into a competitive 2020 console...well he is only human.

it is like with original x1. MS designers had to design according to management demads, and that is where the blame goes.

The interesting thing in all these TF discussions is; is XSX primed to be a high end offering with a price tag to match, catering to the high end consumer, not the the average punter.

This of course falls inline with Ms also offering a much cheaper alternative at the same time.

Leaving Sony somewhere in between with spec and price. How would the market respond. Pretty exciting to watch it unfold.

great drama this time around. Defo.

 

[pawel86ck]

Now as to the X1X design, if MS delivers anything less than 11TF, I think they engineered a bad design. That SOC is huge and the form factor is designed with cooling first in mind. If they can't deliver 11+ TF, then I think they are wasting money and needlessly driving up costs by going with such a large design.

If XSX will be below 12TF then MS should prepare for long shitstorm, because people will remember what Phil Spencer has said in regards to XSX power:

2x xbox x and over 8x xbox one.

There are two different performance descriptions here and only 12TF fits both, therefore there's no room for other interpretations.

 

[Reindeer]

Really hope the ps5 isn't 9tf and the xsx 12,and it's not because i'm a sony fanboy.i want the best graphics and performance from them for my money if the xsx is more powerful i'm worried it will be held back by support for the xbox one one x etc and developers won't bother to use it's full potential. And the price will hold back sales and multi platform games won't use it's extra power either.Then the ps5 will have better exclusives and sell more but will lack power to really push gaming to the next level,I hope they are similar in power around 12tf and price so we get the best out of both.

The visuals wouldn't really need to suffer if devs choose to lower resolution (and use checkerboard solutions) instead of downgrading graphics. Most of that tflop count will be used for resolution. Having said that, they'll (multiplat devs) probably go for higher resolution with reduced graphics .

 

[TherapistGaymer]

Tks,are you expecting the edge for XSX based on your birdie or everyone has pointed the edge for the XSX? Or is just your expectations?
And about the Github leak,does match what your sources has said?

He answered your question in his response man.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I hope you were not serious. RTX 2080 mobile runs in laptops with far less breathing headroom than what consoles will have.

Isn't the 2080 mobile about equal to a 1080ti?

 

[Reindeer]

Isn't the 2080 mobile about equal to a 1080ti?

Yes it is, which is more powerful than 5700XT. We are expecting consoles to be around 1080TI level and that level of performance can easily fit in traditional console form factor, although I'm not sure it can remain completely silent in that form factor.

 

[Zero909]

Arcturus is back

 

[Reindeer]

Arcturus is back

What was it again?

 

[Zero909]

What was it again?

not related to next gen, it's Amd next gen card for professional use

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

i have confidence too. However, if he was told to make a $399 2019 console, then told to try and make that product into a competitive 2020 console...well he is only human.

it is like with original x1. MS designers had to design according to management demads, and that is where the blame goes.

While in the past I could totally see Sony management controlling something like that, with the PS4 he was allowed to design the system as he saw fit (I mean, he is the Lead System Architect of both the PS4/PS5), which look how well that turned out for them, their console sales are through the roof so I don't see Sony messing with that formula at all this gen. What is great about Mark is that not only is he well versed in coding he is also very competent on the hardware aspect of things too which is a mega bonus since that was part of the problem with PS3 and prior consoles, the engineers would design a console and then leave it to the programmers to figure it out which is a horrible way to do things. While I am not saying he is perfect, like you said, he is only human and mistakes can happen with anyone, but based on his life experience in the industry he is a pretty knowledgeable person and kind of knows where the industry needs to go going forward and understands how to navigate those waters. I think that is why one of the first things Sony started talking about with Wired was the high speed SSD, it was almost like they did it so Microsoft would have time to adjust that on the XSX as well since the industry really needs to move to that type storage, otherwise next gen games (specifically 3rd party) would be crippled across both platforms, just imagine if the PS5 had a high speed NVMe and the XSX still had a mechanical drive in it, any multi-plat game would pretty much be crippled because it would be designed around that mechanical drive. I hope this gen both consoles are super close to parity because the winners if that happened would be the gamers, it would help keep development time to a minimal and games will end up looking amazing across the board!

 

[DeeDogg_]

Of course it's fake. XSX will use exactly the same dashboard as Xbox One. They want to make the transition as easy as possible.

Where are you getting this info from? And how will a slightly modified dashboard gonna stop that transition from occurring?

 

[ZywyPL]

Now as to the X1X design, if MS delivers anything less than 11TF, I think they engineered a bad design. That SOC is huge and the form factor is designed with cooling first in mind. If they can't deliver 11+ TF, then I think they are wasting money and needlessly driving up costs by going with such a large design.

The thing is, there isn't actually much more space for the cooling in the XBX than it is in the X1X - that leaked picture of the console's back clearly shows the motherboard goes straight through the middle of the case , leaving just as much height for the cooling until it hits the wall, and the only reason XBX is so damn thick is because the Bluray drive is located on the other side of the motherboard, as oppose to being parallel to the APU's cooling. The only advantage XBX has in terms of cooling compared to current-gen Xboxes is the fact that due to tower design the fan is relocated, leaving some extra room for wider/longer vapor chamber and fins, that's all

That being said, I really wish there would be a drive-less version of the XBX with proper size/proportions

 

[Reindeer]

Where are you getting this info from? And how will a slightly modified dashboard gonna stop that transition from occurring?

Jez from Windows Central said he doesn't think XSX will have a new dashboard.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Jez from Windows Central said he doesn't think XSX will have a new dashboard.

MS changes dashboards like underwear for a console gen. It will most surely change, if not at launch then within the first year.

 

[mckmas8808]

Still nothing huh?

 

[Reindeer]

MS changes dashboards like underwear for a console gen. It will most surely change, if not at launch then within the first year.

You talking about evolution and changing things up, Jez was talking about completely new UI.

 

[TLZ]

It would be fantastic if some of these game company head hochos could have some lessons in being unambiguous. It's partly our fault for over analysing everything said, but this statement isn't really definitive is it?

Key here is "It will be something new in the industry.".

BC with last gen isn't new. So I'm going with BC with every past console, with some limitations. That's definitely new.

 

[DeeDogg_]

Jez from Windows Central said he doesn't think XSX will have a new dashboard.

I do

 

[DeepEnigma]

You talking about evolution and changing things up, Jez was talking about completely new UI.

I think this comes down to semantics, probably.