Support NeoGAF

[jonnyp]

Okay, now it makes sense!

"The Console Centipede" movie

 

[Fun Fanboy]

I'm still on team 9.2

 

[Shmunter]

Higher resolution:

 

[Thedtrain]

I'm still on team 9.2

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

 

[LED Guy?]

I'm still on team 9.2

Too bad it is NOT Navi 10 Lite as the GitHub stated, It is Navi 2X, It'll be as powerful as XSX if not even more.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Did that meant something ?
Tired of these riddles.

Actually no, it was just a game and the hidden number was 13.8, the same one he used before in a post just to give an example, and people began thinking it was a hint.
On the other hand, he reiterated that (like he said before), the real piece of information to people look out, was the gif itself.

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

That doesn't follow at all the narrative they are building in their articles since last year: PS5 is Navi 10 (RDNA1) at 9.2 tflops. They seem to be so convinced about that, they probably can't change their mind now. Or it's going to take time.

I know man, I am just making fun. Somebody has fed them with wrong information all this time and now it is time for this:

 

[IR3TR0]

Really cant wait to get eyeballs on some next gen footage, console specs can wait for all I care, all about dem games

 

[Throttle]

Hearing maybe shortages due to CODIV-19 haven't heard anything about a delay. Also still haven't heard anything about full backwards compatibility. (I said full PS4 bc from day 1) Not saying it's not happening just saying I still haven't heard anything about it.

Have you heard anything about next gen PSVR?

 

[SmokSmog]

Mark Papermaster clarified in the Q&A section afterwards. TSMC are now just including N7+ in N7 as additional libraries, AMD are just following their nomenclature now. They're still 'N7+' products in that they use EUV for some layers

 

[mckmas8808]

Mark Papermaster clarified in the Q&A section afterwards. TSMC are now just including N7+ in N7 as additional libraries, AMD are just following their nomenclature now. They're still 'N7+' products in that they use EUV for some layers

So what does this mean.....really?

 

[Evilms]

Hey man, I am very surprised that DIGITAL FOUNDRY did not talk yet about RDNA2 on PS5. I mean it is 16:20 here in the UK and I cant find anything in their twitter, eurogamer.net or YouTube channel.

What is going on, man?

it's probably just a coincidence

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'm still on team 9.2

 

[SmokSmog]

So what does this mean.....really?

Zen3 7nm EUV 100% sure
RDNA2 was marked as 7NM+

 

[DeepEnigma]

Hey man, I am very surprised that DIGITAL FOUNDRY did not talk yet about RDNA2 on PS5. I mean it is 16:20 here in the UK and I cant find anything in their twitter, eurogamer.net or YouTube channel.

What is going on, man?

On a more serious note, it will probably happen with 70% XSX retcon talk and "comparisons" to the "unknown".

 

[Mriverz]

https://i.redd.it/3qu1a8lmg2l41.jpg

The mummy OsirisBlack Returns!

OsirisBlack

 

[sonomamashine]

Wondering MS DXR 1.1 might run better than Sony solution (RT)
-People talking about the cost :
If they put RDNA2 into consoles they gonna sell those millions of units they deliverd, they (AMD) don't need to worry about marketing or drivers, if they put their ship on consoles they would sell more than the desktop GPU, would also promote their own GPU's, games would be optimised for RDNA2 etc...
Good thing Xbox serie X is a 2080 S/TI competitor & would not use much energy, i'm not worried about Sony delivering something great.

 

[geordiemp]

So what does this mean.....really?

My understanding is EUV being a more precise litho process but excrutiatingly expensive hardware from ASML, they will use the precision of EUV for a layer or 2 to help the 7nm process - the difficult ones. So if there are 50 + layers and many masks and process steps, they may use EUV for 1 or 2. Sensible,

EUV is a litho process, 7nm is a node / gate size, RDNA is a circuitry technology designed for for 7nm. They are not mutually exclusive until marketing try to simplify too much with a single slide is my understanding. I do semiconductor physics but not high end Litho so pardon me if I am wrong.

 

[llien]

Mark Papermaster clarified in the Q&A section afterwards. TSMC are now just including N7+ in N7 as additional libraries, AMD are just following their nomenclature now. They're still 'N7+' products in that they use EUV for some layers

 

[Aceofspades]

Mark Papermaster clarified in the Q&A section afterwards. TSMC are now just including N7+ in N7 as additional libraries, AMD are just following their nomenclature now. They're still 'N7+' products in that they use EUV for some layers

Does it mean that PS5 & XSX APUs are on N7+ node?

Gavin Stevens should be notified by this ..

 

[jackets with pockets]

Okay, now it makes sense!

 

[jonnyp]

wow. absolutely disgusting. just take the L my god.

you get some right. you get some things wrong. its just video games. just be man enough to admit you got some predictions wrong and people will usually forgive you and move on.

Well "predictions" is a nice way of describing what he was actually doing: spamming the forum with "github leak is 100% the PS5 chip and will be 36CU at most" and being arrogant towards anyone who disagreed.

just found out that @R600 requested a permaban, well...

R600 bailed out of NeoGAF like:

 

[sonomamashine]

R600 bailed out of NeoGAF like:

He shouldn't had to, it's all good, we all friends here (i think).

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It's not a big failure mate. I'd say it's average/above average.

It a MASSIVE failure because they were aiming for 200 million and even Bill Gates considered shutting them down

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Does it mean that PS5 & XSX APUs are on N7+ node?

Gavin Stevens should be notified by this ..

You said it yourself: SOME. So still not a full fledged version, but it is really in many ways. That's all.

 

[jackets with pockets]

Martha Is Dead Dev Impressed By PS5's Previously Unannounced Texel Density - PlayStation Universe

The studio behind upcoming horror title Martha Is Dead has praised a number of PS5 features, including Texel density and its SSD. Get more details here.

www.psu.com

PS5's specifications are incredibly exciting – particularly for us is the additional graphical power and inclusion of ray-tracing architecture. Our studio has come a long way over four years and Martha Is Dead will strive for photorealism. We're excited to see the next-generation hardware incoming to support us bringing our vision to players.

We worked a lot in order to use the highest-resolution textures as possible also on PS4; nonetheless, PS5 will allow us to use an incredible Texel density, up to 4096px/m – that means the visual will be fully detailed also in higher resolutions. It's one of the most important advances in visual capacity that we were waiting for.

Dalco also touched base on the PS5's SSD, adding: "High-quality assets are naturally larger in size so will benefit from the faster loads times."

The topic also shifted to ray-tracing, which Dalco described as an "incredible technology for independent studios, allowing games to reach new levels of realism without the need for huge teams."

 

[Kacho]

I'm still on team 9.2

 

[pawel86ck]

To be fair to Gavin Stevens , I think he was working off the assumption "full" RDNA2 was 7nm EUV (as many of us were thinking until yesterday) and that the consoles were going to use 7nm instead of EUV. So any RDNA2 features would've been pulled from the roadmap onto custom APUs of 7nm process node. Doing so could effectively consider them RDNA2 even if they weren't EUV.

Then AMD sideblinded a lot of us by showing RDNA2 was 7nm all along and they're skipping right to 5nm for RDNA3. 7nm EUV's been left in the dust. So I can't hold that against him for speculating RDNA 1.9, a lot of us were speculating similar since we didn't have a full picture of what RDNA2 actually entailed process node-wise.

EDIT: Never mind, he already answered this himself. Hate it when I jump the gun on replies xD.



Just about. It does raise some questions about XSX's form factor, then. It's not massive honestly, but it is unusual compared to typical consoles. I think it fits the theory of them giving some headroom to upclock if they feel the need to against PS5.

So there's a chance PS5 will be more traditional in its size (I hope it's stylized like the V-shaped devkit, just a bit more muted in some areas and smaller sized would do).

pawel86ck So the 13.45TF listing is like its weakest form? Jeezuz. Welp never mind then, I guess the next-gen systems won't quite outdo a 2080TI when it gets serious.

BUT, it's still very impressive how much they blow past the normal 2080 and that alone should commended. They basically fall pretty evenly between 2080 Super and 2080TI (non OC'd), from the looks of it.

I think if people have really bad airflow in their PC case 2080ti clocks can go as low as 1545MHz. But in normal scenario (normal airflow) thanks to GPU boost these cards OC automatically until they reach certain temp.

Here you can see stock results on the left 1890MHz (thats 16.4TF out of the box). On the right manual OC 2146MHz (18.6TF).

12TF RDNA2 should be faster than 2080S, but I'm really not so sure if it's enough to beat 2080ti even assuming additional gains compared to RDNA1. But as we all know on consoles developers optimize games to the extreme so I think in the end 12TF consoles should provide experience comparable to 2080ti. For example it's totally impossible to run RDR2 even on Radeon 7970 with comparable to PS4 settings, and PS4 GPU is only around 7850/7870 performance. I cant wait to see how far developers will push PS5 / XSX, games will look amazing for sure.

 

[llien]

I'm still on team 9.2

#metoo

Because console faster than contemporary $800 card is batchit crazy.

In a sense that Sony did not plan for anywhere near 12TF, but could be doing acting to mitigate now.

 

[Physiognomonics]

So what does this mean.....really?

It means RDNA1 designs are 7nm and RDNA2 designs are 7nm+.

 

[SSfox]

Another good thing about PS5 being RDNA2, is now there is a little more chance that PS5 will be full BC with all PS games (specially PS3 which would easily be the hardest console to BC)

So many old games i would really love to replay in PS5, that would be too good, but huh i need to calm down and don't get myself hype too much about it, since it's still not guarantee.

 

[geordiemp]

Does it mean that PS5 & XSX APUs are on N7+ node?

Gavin Stevens should be notified by this ..

Not really, it means they are using EUV litho where it is needed for 7nm critical layers / steps, not for the whole node, see my post earlier. Semiconductor process is very complex and not as simple as 7nm / 7nm+ marketing terms.

 

[jonnyp]

#metoo

Because console faster than contemporary $800 card is batchit crazy.

In a sense that Sony did not plan for anywhere near 12TF, but could be doing acting to mitigate now.

So you're calling Phil Spencer batshit crazy and/or a liar?

 

[Aceofspades]

#metoo

Because console faster than contemporary $800 card is batchit crazy.

In a sense that Sony did not plan for anywhere near 12TF, but could be doing acting to mitigate now.

$800 cards doesn't cost that much, It's basically Nvidia overcharging the hell out of PC peeps. Card can cost $150 max the remaining $650 is pure margin for Nvidia. That's why they quit console contracts, they don't like razor margins.

 

[geordiemp]

So you're calling Phil Spencer batshit crazy and/or a liar?

You have not seen the pricing of XSX or Ps5 yet, so down boy. 7nm RDNA2 will have a cost, what it is we dont know yet.

Dont believe the armchair BOM costs of market analysis and journalists, they could be well out. who knows

 

[jonnyp]

You have not seen the pricing of XSX or Ps5 yet, so down boy. 7nm RDNA2 will have a cost, what it is we dont know yet.

Dont believe the armchair BOM costs of market analysis and journalists, they could be well out. who knows

They are not going to be 800 bucks, that's for sure. And pricing wasn't the point of my post at all.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Another good thing about PS5 being RDNA2, is now there is a little more chance that PS5 will be full BC with all PS games (specially PS3 which would easily be the hardest console to BC)

So many old games i would really love to replay in PS5, that would be too good, but huh i need to calm down and don't get myself hype too much about it, since it's still not guarantee.

Why do you think it's more likely with RDNA2?

The hard part was the SPU tailored code, which, while being GPU-ey for a CPU, still won't translate perfectly to a GPU. PS3 emulation is still heavy on the CPU side. Sony being the manufacturer will no doubt have a more efficient time of it than emulators, but I don't think some more compute capacity on the GPU is going to make or break PS3 emu here.

Still think it's going to be PS4, and then the solution for the PS3 will be streaming. I'm just hoping we get upgrades to PS4 games, at least the Pro level patches, and then allow devs to patch for even beyond the Pro on the 5, this might be my earliest console purchase if that's the case, I've usually waited for a larger library but if it already takes all my PS4 games and upgrades them...

 

[Fun Fanboy]

#metoo

Because console faster than contemporary $800 card is batchit crazy.

In a sense that Sony did not plan for anywhere near 12TF, but could be doing acting to mitigate now.

9.2 for 399. Easy transfer for PS4 to PS5 customers.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why do you think it's more likely with RDNA2?

The hard part was the SPU tailored code, which, while being GPU-ey for a CPU, still won't translate perfectly to a GPU. PS3 emulation is still heavy on the CPU side. Sony being the manufacturer will no doubt have a more efficient time of it than emulators, but I don't think some more compute capacity on the GPU is going to make or break PS3 emu here.

Still think it's going to be PS4, and then the solution for the PS3 will be streaming. I'm just hoping we get upgrades to PS4 games, at least the Pro level patches, and then allow devs to patch for even beyond the Pro on the 5, this might be my earliest console purchase if that's the case, I've usually waited for a larger library but if it already takes all my PS4 games and upgrades them...

If anything having Zen2 in there gives more hope, since emulation for PS3 is working very nice on them at 60fps to boot.

 

[pawel86ck]

He shouldn't had to, it's all good, we all friends here (i think).

But R600 wasnt friendly. He was rude and disrespectful to all 12TF believers.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The dev was talking about ray-tracing on RDNA2 plus DXR.

Seems like to me Microsoft can't program shit, not a surprise since I've experienced it first hand since 1996 with their crappy Windows OS.

 

[llien]

So you're calling Phil Spencer batshit crazy and/or a liar?

It looks like 'two console' strategy was planned upfront. So more expensive 12TF and much cheaper smaller one.
Which puts it within limits.

$800 cards doesn't cost that much...
Card can cost $150 max...

 

[Gamernyc78]

The dev was talking about ray-tracing on RDNA2 plus DXR.

Thanks. I know exactly what the dev is talking about. And my point is for every API Sony doesn't have they create their own and we've seen are very good at it. Nothing changes.

 

[saintjules]

In case you're feeling dry on stuff

 

[Blindarchangel82]

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

If anything having Zen2 in there gives more hope, since emulation for PS3 is working very nice on them at 60fps to boot.

Don't...don't give me hope

 

[demigod]

9.2 for 399. Easy transfer for PS4 to PS5 customers.

Better yet, 12+TF "BC" for easy transfer PS4 to PS5 at $499, trade in your PS4 at GS and make it $399.

 

[jonnyp]

It looks like 'two console' strategy was planned upfront. So more expensive 12TF and much cheaper smaller one.
Which puts it within limits.

Ok, I might have have misunderstood what you actually meant at first. It seemed like you meant it was somehow impossible for the PS5 to be 12 TF when Phil already confirmed their console was.

But considering how sensitive console buyers historically have been with regards to price I have a hard time seeing MS and Sony being able to sell large volumes above 600 dollars.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Yes I am aware that Sony sold more. I don't think anyone said differently. Yes that isn't fanboy shit but facts. That also doesn't change the "fact" that MS did really well that gen and caught up with Sony in sales. Why does it seem like you are upset about this?

You should understand that PS3 is considered a "big" failure in Sony's standards, and the lesser Xbox 360 is considered the peak of success for MS. Try reading that again if you didn't get the idea.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Thanks. I know exactly what the dev is talking about. And my point is for every API Sony doesn't have they create their own and we've seen are very good at it. Nothing changes.

Yep.

What API does Playstation supports?

Sony is using it's own, proprietary APIs. On PS4 ist's GNM for low-level and GNMX for a higher level approach, both come with their own shading language (similar to DX11 style HLSL). PS3 had PSGL based on OpenGL ES and NVidia's cg, but afair that's not available on PS4 and wasn't used widely on PS3 anyway.

Being low-level, GNM is similar to Vulkan, but as it's closed source and you won't get access to it unless you're a registered developer for Playstation you may not find much info on this.

Do visuals differ as you use different APIs?

If there's functional parity between the APIs you use (shader level, precision), then no.

How much work does it take for devs to apply support for a different API other than what they currently use?

Very broad question and probably different for every dev you ask. Strongly depends on your background and how much you actually want or need to support a new API. For commercial devs, API support is also a financial matter. Moving from e.g. OpenGL to Vulkan is not easy and depending on your use-case may not yield what you're looking for.

What API is better for creating a Game Engine form scratch? (Difficulty to implement the API aside)

Another very broad question. That's like asking "what programming language is best for creating a Game Engine". Wrapping a dynamic game engine around Vulkan is hard though, due to the fact that you have to pre or rebuild many of the resources, so going with some of the "not-so" low level APIs may be the easier way.

It must be possible to create a Game engine that supports multible APIs but from what I have seen most games' visuals remains the same while porting from one platform to another (depends in the hardware I guess)

Engines usually use abstraction for their renderer's interface to make the underlying API interchangeable. Adding a new API is then "just" a matter of adding another API backend.

Btw. the Nintendo Switch supports Vulkan out-of-the box. I hope that at least Sony (MS probably won't ever) will support Vulkan in the future though, but I don't think that it'll become first-class as their GNM tooling seems to be pretty good.