longdi
Banned
Re quoting this gold, you know to clean up those half truth attempts by certain agents....
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Just because a piece of hardware comes with theoretical specs doesn't mean a game has to use every ounce of it. There is energy loss in real life. That's why the numbers are theoretical. I don't think the SSD speed is going to add to a game such that it makes the game unusable on the PC platform. I could guess as to how I would get around it. 1) Require an SSD. It doesn't have to be as fast as 5.5G/s (i.e. A regular SSD/XSX SSD is sufficient). 2) Increase the RAM requirements to offset the extra speed requirement of fetching data from I/O.
The processors and DMA, etc.. can all be available on regular hardware for the PC. Aside from not getting 3D audio, I'm not seeing what the big deal is with any of the next-gen console parts (both XSX and PS5) that would leave a game unplayable on a PC.
The focus should really be on how ray-tracing can fit into a game at reasonable framerates. It's really the only thing that will give that leap in visuals.
Ptarmiganx2
Member
I could not agree more. The reviewers loved to hate the game. It was my second favorite game this generation. Only topped by Horizon.
Audiophile
Member
Hence the term "some time".
If a fundamental gameplay mechanic requires the SSD speed of the PS5 at a given visual fidelity their options on PC are mandate an SSD of equal effective performance, reduce scene complexity to potato levels or ideally allow some level of scalability in between. It all depends on how much of the integrity of their creation they're willing to allow users to forgo for lower specs.
SportsFan581
Member
What matters is the max throughput, 10GB at 560GB/s is not a bad design, it's an improvement over the bandwidth offered by a 256bit bus. Both machines will need to have memory for the CPU and sound processors to access, Sony will have faster memory in that instance (but these calls are generally handled in a memory pool with a lot less bandwidth on PC - but better latency).
megreotsugua
Banned
In the PS5, GPU can fetch from the entire game data when needed. I don't see how an increased RAM can off-set that. Sony first party devs will have the preoccupy themselves with prediction again about which data will be cached to the RAM. I guess that possible, or they can require 64GB or more of RAM.
Sure. But you cannot beat PS5 I/O throughput with just including those hardware. It has to integrated as to make all them work in concert. I mean the PS5 SSD can feed the GPU with data as soon as the player turns view. It's in Cerny's presentation. No wonder a lot of developers are praising the PS5 architecture.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I don't know who said that but I could see it being that way for some games. But a gameplay mechanic? Hard to visualize.
The PS5 will be limited by what is rendered and at what framerate (like every platform is). You can't shove infinite data at the PS5 assuming that the GPU can process it all. The limit of the GPU will be the PC's advantage. 64G of RAM won't be required.
I saw that presentation and I"m saying that the PC won't need an SSD for that. It's much much better to have 2 memory pools (VRAM and CPU RAM) than 1 memory pool.
If the PS5's SSD is you guy's salvation, you are going to be disappointed. It's not going to be what you hope.
You have no idea what PC tech will look like in 3 years when the Sony hits its stride in first party games. By then the standard gaming SSD could be twice that speed shit will move in 3 years. You think Sony built invincible technology that will never be surpassed by PC by brute force?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
As for the recent chat about PS5 vs PC ports (SSD vs slower or zero SSD), the devs will make ports work.
No different than a game being released on PS4 and PS5. PS5 will work better with the new tech, but devs will still adjust things so PS4s with its stock HDD or USB external still work.
No different than a game being released on PS4 and PS5. PS5 will work better with the new tech, but devs will still adjust things so PS4s with its stock HDD or USB external still work.
megreotsugua
Banned
LOL. Ok. We'll see about that.
I can't wait to see the games. I'm sure Sony first party studios can't wait to show their games too.
The realised bandwidth between the platforms will be interesting if the numbers ever get talked about in a GDC talk, due to the XSX slow pool being slower than the PS5's memory and what type of impact this has on realised bandwidth when your are switching between the two rapidly.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
kyliethicc
Member
Quite the opposite. There's a reason Ferrari doesn't want to sell as many Ferraris as the market demands. Apple is a huge brand because the iPhone is exclusive to them. They will never let you put android on it. Or iOS on a Samsung. That's how to build a brand. Ubisoft and EA aren't brands of any relevance. They just make games. Nintendo and PlayStation are brands. Mario is iconic. Windows isn't a brand. It's an OS anyone can use, on any hardware, even on a Mac. It's great software, makes money, works. But it's not a brand. Building brands are all about selectivity and exclusivity. Even if it's just marketing BS, if people think it's cool and special then it worked. Nothing is special about FIFA or Call of Duty. Anyone can play it on any console. It's super profitable. Great business. But not special.
kyliethicc
Member
And this is my concern. I don't want the variability of PC hardware limiting PS5 games. I want Sony devs to make the best games they can for 1 console. Jut PS5. Pure design to the max.
kyliethicc
Member
Guerrilla devs said they couldn't get flight working in HZD because of the hard drive and CPU of the PS4. That's a gameplay mechanic (flying on a storm bird around a huge map) that could, perhaps, require a very fast SSD to work. Just a guess.
Considering MS flight simulator I doubt you need a super SSD for flying in super quality. Ps4 had was more than HD limited it also had what 5.5 gigs usable ram and sub 2tf.
VFXVeteran
Banned
kyliethicc
Member
The MLB thing wasn't a choice. The MLB was going to take away their license unless they did. But software and hardware combined sell ecosystems and brands. Nintendo gets it. That's why Mario isn't on any other platform. They sell 20 or 30 million units of every Mario Kart just because there's no other way to buy it. That's genius. PlayStation is going to end eroding their unique brand to chase short term sales. It's dangerous, risky.
ethomaz
Banned
Yeap look how detailed the world of Flight Simulator is when you look at the ground...
That is definitely not the ideia of flight that Guerrilha was thinking.
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CJY
Banned
No. I'm not interested in anything you have to say because you bring nothing to the conversation. I don't consider you an insider, I consider you to be a troll.
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Learn your lines from the Sony presser man. The PS5 is the most innovative console ever. The SSD is the biggest game changer in gaming even bigger than 3d or online play. Read the script and memorize it.
It is good to hear both sides keep it up.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
LOL. Ok. We'll see about that.
I can't wait to see the games. I'm sure Sony first party studios can't wait to show their games too.
according to
VFXVeteran
PS5 games will only look as good as Assassin's Creed looks today at max PC settingsGuy is very unbiased and knowledgeable about these things
CJY
Banned
And apparently he thinks Horizon 2 is going to be released on PC day-1 and it will look better on PC, because PCPCPCPCPC.according to
Guy is very unbiased and knowledgeable about these things
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
You Sony fans are crazy thinking a PC port can't look better than the original PS game.
As a start a game like Horizon is only 1080p/30 fps to begin with.
As a start a game like Horizon is only 1080p/30 fps to begin with.
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Audiophile
Member
Take for eg. the time travel section of TitanFall2. It entails switching between two different time periods (time travel) and as you switch you're having to make split-second decisions in terms of traversal, combat etc.. This of course is possible on HDDs as it is an PS4/XB1 title, but take this same concept and scale it up to an open world with dense, next-gen graphics and greater interactivity. These transitions take less than a second. Now imagine this is pushed to the max and a first party studio is taking full advantage of the PS5 SSD.
That's a 5.5GB/s baseline , 8-9GB/s typical and occasional peaks as high as 22GB/s. Across 12 Ch.
Now translate that to PC.. 7 GB/s peak on PCIe4, 8Ch.
A gameplay possibility is now only possible on that PS5 unless you're willing to make a considerable reduction in the complexity of your scene.
In addition to this, a PC doesn't have dedicated I/O hardware providing multiple levels of priority, so instead of a Zen CPU with 8C/16T, you're probably going to need a 16C Zen CPU.
So it ends up a question of how much of the integrity of the vision do you give up in order to set a minimum PC spec.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but for the masses on PC, something's gotta give and with these first and second party titles being showcases for the PlayStation brand and the ecosystem... How much will they be willing to sacrifice to get the game to those masses; and what will the cost-benefit ratio be that helps inform this?
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Metroiddarks
Member
Will looks better than the first version in cases like horizon for new games they will need use another
approach like use a huge quantity or ram or something similar until the ssd market reach that speed in general.
Vroadstar
Member
according to
Guy is very unbiased and knowledgeable about these things
Yes I remember him when he was In Era, downplaying God of War graphics, going as low as nitpicking that the snow doesn't shine enough, therefore, reasons, so yes he
definitely is unbiased /s
CJY
Banned
Really don't think anybody thinks that. I certainly don't.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
I think it's going to be limited to reflections mostly. Full path tracing taxes even the 2080ti at 1080p, and that is with extremely simple old games.
Some say in less than ten years we'll have the singularity. But barring that consoles are not going anywhere.
Sony might have plans to release games on pc, perhaps even all games. But not only does steam take a hefty cut, people don't want to download other stores. If they get significant sales at full or near full digital price, they may do so, even if software sales drop on console. But if they can only get sales at bargain bin prices, it would be stupid not to drop the approach.
Even a sata ssd? These are only 2-5 times faster than an hdd in loading. Don't know if that's their speed when streaming, etc. Cerny seemed to imply such was the case due to the bottlenecks. If that's their speed that's still far below a 100x improvement in speed.
They can become available in future pcs. But as far as we know there is nothing comparable off the shelf. Or if there was there wouldn't be any bottlenecks for Cerny to remove.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Sony doesn't own MLB licence, though
VFXVeteran
Banned
CJY
Banned
Throw enough money at it, anything is technically possible on the PC. The possibilities are literally endless. It boils down to being a business decision. The fact there is one person out there who is trying to peddle the bullshit that Sony are activitely trying to get out of the hardware business seriously needs to get their head checked and that's not an opinion, it's a fact.
CJY
Banned
PC. PC!!! PC? PEE... CEE?
Kacho
Member
I wonder if they're going to go the extra mile and get rid of the smoke and mirrors in the console version. A lot of the assets in the world didn't react to the player in convincing ways for example. Lot of room for improvement there.
VFXVeteran
Banned
It wasn't a downplay. It was a professional opinion about the graphics tech. Not the subjective artistic vision of the directors.
VFXVeteran
Banned
according to
Guy is very unbiased and knowledgeable about these things
Sup Sawyer! I'm glad you remember the good old days!
CJY
Banned
It's my professional opinion that your opinion masquerading as a professional opinion is dumb.
VFXVeteran
Banned
CJY
Banned
How very professional of you.
SonGoku
Member
I think they'll wait a gen before releasing games on PS5. The reason to wait a gen its to not devalue the brand rather than technical
There's a precedent for this with Sony releasing PS3 games on PC during the PS4 gen, so they'll likely follow this strategy next gen releasing PS4 games on PC
It makes sense to release last gen exclusives on PC, it gives the game a second wind of sales, introduces people to playstation ecosystem while not devaluating the current gen console brand
PC could certainly run PS5 exclusives, with a 3GB/s drive it would take 24-27GB DDR4 dedicated as a buffer to match the typical compressed output of PS5 (8-9GB/s). More if some devs exploit the upper limits in edge cases (20GB/s). It would also need to use 1 or 2 cores for check-ins
They could reduce the DDR4 buffer needed by going with compressed data but that would use more CPU resources.
From a business point of view i don't think they'll release PS5 1st party games on PC until end of gen
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
True. But do we know what's optimal? Would 16GB in an rx 5700 xt be wasted? Could no future title requiring that ram amount run on it if it had it?
If we assume such 16GB is useful in vram for an rx 5700 xt, then ps5 too can fill most of its ram and use it for graphics.
say a game uses 12+GB of vram on ps5. Suddenly even an rtx 2080 with only 8GB will need to scale down assets, probably.
That's without mentioning, how will the loading be in a pc with an hdd? Suppose the assets for indoor of buildings takes 12GB, and the outside city environment assets take 12GB. Suddenly you need 24GB of ram or massive loading inbetween if you don't have an ssd.
With the ssds suddenly the city can be several dozen GB in assets or more. As you can load into memory assets as you move quickly around. Assets of such quality and diversity would be prohibitive on hdds.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
How much data do you think the PS5 can handle AFTER it gets into RAM? Let's say being conservative you have 12G of RAM total to run a game, load textures and any other datasets you want stored in main memory. What is the realworld case of needing to use the full potential of an SSD drive's speed? Let's look at the PS exclusives and assume sequels:
1) God of War 2 - not needed. Easily able to put very detailed shading and lighting with assets into an entire level.
2) Uncharted 5/TLoU2 enhanced - not needed. Again, streaming is not required.
3) Ghost of Toshima - not needed.
4) Spiderman 2 - yep, perhaps. We'll say open world with large map that can't be totally residing in local memory even though it will use several instances of the same buildings.
5) H:ZD 2 - ok.. definitely a possibility
6) DriveClub 2 - nope. Not open world
7) Bloodborne 2 - nope.. linear game as well.
So there's only 2 games that fit the bill for increased I/O bandwidth due to streaming an open world. The rest of the games can easily migrate to the PC with no issues.
I'd love to bet on that.
MarkMe2525
Banned
It was just an analogy. My point being apu customizations didn't matter much in the long run. It was the pure compute advantage of PS4 that showed to be its greatest strength.
megreotsugua
Banned
CJY
Banned
What did he say?
kyliethicc
Member
With God of War, the key would to remove all the stupid loading tricks. All the little doors and squeeze through, etc designed to hide loading.
Also, Cory Barlog said they originally wanted the opening fight with Baldur to be much bigger. They wanted Baldur to punch Kratos miles away from his house, but they couldn't get that to work at the speed needed to move Kratos that far that fast.
No matter what you think currently, developers can find ways to use super fast data streaming to create new experiences. I've seen lots of developers all saying the PS5 SSD is giving them hope to dream of new game designs.
Also, Driveclub is dead. Evolution studios was shut down a long time ago. Gran Tursimo is the true race sim anyway.
And even for GT, imagine how detailed the textures can be on PS5. The tracks and cars are the same. Same speeds, same sizes. But no more loading trees on the horizon and pop in.
For Naughty Dog's new IP / whatever they do next after TLOU 2, they will definitely want the SSD. (And the CPU GPU etc too obviously.)
Even in Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima, etc.... they probably had to limit how they designed the world to accommodate the hard drive limit. Guerrilla said the speed of the mounts was set by the drive. Kojima probably had to divide up the world into East, Central, and West, with sight line tricks and hiding areas underground because of how slow the data could stream in.
This goes on and on. Literally any game would benefit dramatically from freedom given to designers.
CJY
Banned
I'd bet you $100 no brand new Sony PS5 1st Party AAA title will release on PC day-and-date with the console release next generation. (Not including remakes/remasters or games from newly acquired studios that already have games in development for PC/competing console).
Also: DriveClub 2. Lol. OK Boomer.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
Characters in current gen games seem to fluctuate between 50-100~MB in size. We might assume next gen higher quality models of 500MB-1GB might be used.
Put a bit of enemy variety, say 30 different enemy models coming soon in small wave after small wave. That's 30~GB of data easy, without mentioning the level.
When you mentioned Baldur fight, the superman city fight scene came to mind. Similar fights with people flying all over the place could take place.
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