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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Nope the mid grade gpu in PS5 makes it non premium.
Also Sony ssd will probably be less than 0.9gb usable for games because SSD needs to provision extra space to perform. With the OS, idk maybe you can only use 90% of it for games.
The GPU inside the Series X is mid-grade at the end of this year as both AMD and Nvidia are releasing new cards, Nvidya's first on 7nm.
I hate Nvidia but they'll have a 3060 card that will blow the series X away, 3070/3080 and 3080 Ti will obviously be crazy fast. The Series X is more standard off the shelf parts so they will be able to price match Sony.
My point is, with actual exclusive games to awe people with, PS5 will still outsell the Series X at the same price ($450).
FranXico
Member
It looks nice, if a bit bulky. But it stings that it resembles the OG PS so much, when BC only supports PS4 games.Another PS5 concept design.
I kinda like it.
Felessan
Member
Cerny himself said that in his presentation, that SPU is not bound to audio only (though he sounded like he personally prefers audio).
It's actually should be quite big for compute/AI-assisted tasks (like physics, DLSS, other adaptive things like VRS management and overall performance management)
The question what is the raw power of this unit.
Blitzmangoman
Member
I am getting more and more hyped. Pretty sure the PS5 will deliver.
Eagerly waiting for that video Cerny mentioned where they will show us the cooling system etc. Not even too bothered about the games at the moment.
Eagerly waiting for that video Cerny mentioned where they will show us the cooling system etc. Not even too bothered about the games at the moment.
rnlval
Member
Wrong, Both consoles have similar CPU, hence similar BW usage. PS5 GPU's BW is under RX 5700/5700 XT's 448 GB/s when desktop-class CPU's BW is factored in.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
It smells of desperation in here. So much energy spent defending an obviously less powerful console is laughable at this point. They will both have great games, just get over the power battle. That is already over.
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Metroiddarks
Member
Just searching I saw the geometry engine will do primitive shaders also know as mesh shaders .... why they love to use different names for the same thing
https://www.starcitizen.gr/2642867-2/
"This Nvidia dev blog goes more in-depth about the system (but this is not Nvidia specific, AMD just calls them primitive shaders) and from what I can
tell this is the future"
Do you think Sony just extract this feature in a separete chip ? or this will be in all RNDA 2 gpus in the same way?
Because at least how Xbox PR works don't think so and they just say will use mesh shaders as feature but never mention will be in a separate chip and
how angry was one Dev of Sony when someone said XSX will have the same as PS5 (VRS with a Primitive Shader chip) I think Sony decides to put it
apart so in this way the devs can have more control of the same (is just a theory).
https://www.starcitizen.gr/2642867-2/
"This Nvidia dev blog goes more in-depth about the system (but this is not Nvidia specific, AMD just calls them primitive shaders) and from what I can
tell this is the future"
Do you think Sony just extract this feature in a separete chip ? or this will be in all RNDA 2 gpus in the same way?
Because at least how Xbox PR works don't think so and they just say will use mesh shaders as feature but never mention will be in a separate chip and
how angry was one Dev of Sony when someone said XSX will have the same as PS5 (VRS with a Primitive Shader chip) I think Sony decides to put it
apart so in this way the devs can have more control of the same (is just a theory).
rnlval
Member
Don't base your judgment on max clock boost i.e. work on the average clock speed.Ok guys. Had some time to let everything process a bit and yes Microsoft has built a beast of a console. However, I wouldn't count Sony out in any away. Sure, their PR and marketing is sucking royally right now but in terms of their design goals and their overall performance I don't think the difference is as big as it may seem on paper (looking at TFLOP ratings and such). In fact, I think it's possible that the raw performance difference may be <10% or even <5%!! Here how:
There is a lot that we don't know yet about both consoles, but let's review what we do know in terms of GPU performance. First, we know that both are RNDA 2.0 GPUs, which brings a certain amount of efficiency improvements over RNDA 1.0 that we do not know yet. But for the sake of this comparison let's keep it apples to apples and use RDNA 1.0 as a reference (whatever the RDNA 2.0 improvements are will be moot since both consoles should see the same benefits).
For the Xbox Series X, it's pretty straightforward. Looking at the RX 5700 XT Anniversary Edition (overclocked), we see an RDNA 1.0 GPU that is almost exactly 10TFLOPs based on the max boost clock. We know that Xbox Series X GPU is 12 TFLOPs which is exactly a +20% increase in the amount of raw compute power. So we could extrapolate that if the Xbox Series X was just an RDNA 1.0 card, then it would roughly be +20% higher performance than an RX 5700 XT AE. Looking at the relative performance chart below of actual game benchmarks, let's figure that the RX 5700 XT AE is ~15% higher than the RX 5700 (+2% for the AE overclock). Then adding an additional 20% will put the XBSX at 135% above the RX 5700 which will put it right in between the RTX 2070 Super and RTX 2080 at 4K.
Now, for the PS5 Sony took a different approach. We know that the actual GPU config in terms of core count, memory bus width, memory bandwidth etc is exactly a match for a base RX 5700 GPU. However, Sony just went ahead and overclocked the hell out of it. In fact, the 2.23 Ghz GPU clock speed is roughly a +30% increase in the clock speed alone (and thus the raw TFLOP rating). So adding +30% to the RX 5700 performance gets us to 130% which is right above the RTX 2070 Super in the chart below.
Now, this is NOT a comparison of absolute performance so whatever source you look at and whatever benchmark is used doesn't really matter. The point is looking at the relative performance in real world games between the RX 5700 (PS5 config) and RX 5700 XT AE (XBSX is +20%) tells the story. We end up with relative performance of 130% (PS5) and 135% (XBSX) which is only a delta of 5%!! Again both consoles should be even further beyond a RX 5700 than what this comparison says given the RDNA 2.0 architecture but the relative delta between the 2 should remain.
Now before you guys go crazy, keep in mind the following:
The real takeaway here is that:
- Yes, I already pointed out that this comparison is assuming both GPUs are RNDA 1.0 which they are not. For the sake of an apples to apples comparison, the assumption of RDNA 1.0 makes the delta easy to see since we can base it on actual real world hardware today and the RDNA 2.0 benefits will effectively cancel out since both console will see it
- It is safe to assume that the RDNA 2.0 efficiency gains will put the effective performance above what I just computed above. We don't know how much more perf/clock we can expect in RDNA 2.0 but it will likely be between 10-20%. That would theoretically put PS5 GPU at RTX 2080 perf at 4K and the XBSX perf at RTX 2080 Super level perf at 4K (at least)
- This comparison really is a baseline as the actual system performance should be higher. This doesn't take into account the optimizations in the GPUs and throughout the systems, console specific optimizations, SDK/driver efficiency, throughput improvements, memory differences etc.
- This also doesn't take into account the clock speed vs core count differences. Sony claims that the PS5 GPU should be more efficient, easier to utilize, and faster at the non-compute aspects in the GPU given the higher clock speed. We shall see what impact this may have
A) The GPU differences in actual game performance may not be as pronounced as it seems when just looking at TFLOPs and theoretical hardware numbers and
B) while XBSX has a beast of a GPU, the PS5 GPU is no slouch and not too far behind (if at all). It just achieves it's performance in a different way.
Now I'm just anxious and excited to start seeing some games and seeing how all of these advancements will change the games we play
.
From https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/34.html
RX 5700 XT has 1887 Mhz average, which yields about 9.66 TFLOPS.
RX 5700 XT has 448 GB/s bandwidth for itself.
From https://www.techpowerup.com/review/sapphire-radeon-rx-5600-xt-pulse/27.html with updated drivers
This Sapphire RX 5600 XT has 1712 Mhz average clock speed, which yields 7.9 TFLOPS with reduced memory bandwidth i.e. 336 GB/s. PS5 has CPU consuming BW from the shared 448 GB/s BW
Yup, but they keep going .
PocoJoe
Banned
Then go to shower?
Only thing that is laughable is the insecurity of xbots. Why cant people talk about console specs and new chips/tech and what could they offer in theory? This is gaming forum and thread is about next gen consoles after all.
I still haven't seen this "defending or damage control" anywhere, just discussion about new stuff that PS5 have and what could it mean to gaming.
You really think that we talk about PS5 stuff because "omg xbox fast, must prove ps5 faster herp derp!!"?
Nobody seriously cares about how fast xbox is (vs ps5) other than xbox fanboys whom have to prove it time after time
Stop that childish bullshit already.
Talking about what tempest engine, ssd+i/o or other ps5 customizations can offer above the normal stuff have nothing to do with which console is more powerful. It have been clear from day 1 of reveal that xsex have more raw tflops+cpu perf. get it? No, because _you_ are one of the desperete insecure people whom have to repeat this "lol lol lol ps5 lose lol lol dont talk about it it is damage control lol lol xsex best yesssssss" bullshit.
If someone talks about specs of new ferrari will you go and repeat how some other model have more horse power?
PS5 and xsex are both consoles, but it doesnt mean that everything must be competition. People can talk about PS5 without caring other systems.
It is exhausting to read this xbox bullshit day after day, grow up and find a new hobby if only interesting thing on xsex is that it have more raw perf and it makes you jealous when people find PS5 still to be interesting
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Obviously you have your panties in a bunch over your precious piece of plastic. I've seen your post history, don't pretend you aren't a champion for the cause or above it all.
kensama
Member
Power battle is over and?
Seems all Xbox's Fanboys are focus on power battle more than in game themselves.
But just remeber, that that was only MS fanboys care for power raw batlle since Xbox360.
In the same time at Sony's WWS they delivered at each generation greatest technically games and it won't change with the nextgen.
The only one Studios to be follow is The initiative which i'm waiting for for great purpose.
M-V2
Member
People like you are annoying, because people are discussing the possibilities of what the PS5 could possibly bring to the table, regardless of it's true or not. This thread about speculations, BUT people like you DESPERATELY trying to convince others that ma console is mo powa(ful) than yours and try to downplay anything positive about the ps5, if you have acounter argument feel free to post it and the guys will answer you, otherwise go to dealer or colt twitter account to downplay the ps5, believe me they will give a
pasterpl
Member
B_Boss
Member
Interestingly enough Goku, Cerny is totally inspired by Nintendo's approach to game development, how they keep a majority of their team members to create quality titles throughout the years. I love it.
Another PS5 concept design.
I kinda like it.
Sony Dreamcast
.
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kareemna
Member
Just searching I saw the geometry engine will do primitive shaders also know as mesh shaders .... why they love to use different names for the same thing
https://www.starcitizen.gr/2642867-2/
"This Nvidia dev blog goes more in-depth about the system (but this is not Nvidia specific, AMD just calls them primitive shaders) and from what I can
tell this is the future"
Do you think Sony just extract this feature in a separete chip ? or this will be in all RNDA 2 gpus in the same way?
Because at least how Xbox PR works don't think so and they just say will use mesh shaders as feature but never mention will be in a separate chip and
how angry was one Dev of Sony when someone said XSX will have the same as PS5 (VRS with a Primitive Shader chip) I think Sony decides to put it
apart so in this way the devs can have more control of the same (is just a theory).
FYI PS1 had Geometry Transformation Engine coprocessor in the CPU. (Ken you are a genius)
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Looks cool, but it's cross gen? I thought Sony wasn't doing this and that this is amazingly bad for the community. What's the reason to buy the PS5 if I can play these games on my PS4...
SportsFan581
Member
The SDF marches on, while accusing others of marching...
Couldn't help myself.
bitbydeath
Member
3rd party by the looks of things.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Thanks, wanted to say this but I didn't want to spend too much energy and give too much attention to "muh PS5 weaker why talk" people.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
People like you are annoying, because people are discussing the possibilities of what the PS5 could possibly bring to the table, regardless of it's true or not. This thread about speculations, BUT people like you DESPERATELY trying to convince others that ma console is mo powa(ful) than yours and try to downplay anything positive about the ps5, if you have acounter argument feel free to post it and the guys will answer you, otherwise go to dealer or colt twitter account to downplay the ps5, believe me they will give a
I honestly don't care which console does better. I'm just tired of the hypocrisy around here. If the roles were reversed (XseX and PS5 specs flip flopped), instead of hearing non-stop SSD and I/O being the true game changer, we would be hearing about how dumb of a design choice it was and how weak the Xbox SeX was based on the specs.
Just pathetic and transparent goal post moving is all I see here.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
"Sony wasn't doing this muh"
It's a third party developer, they got a deal and apparently devs didn't want PS5 only.
Let's see if Sony is stupid enough to decide crossgen for actual first parties where it has complete control, first.
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kareemna
Member
So the Sony's (Cerny's) approach for the less than a month of Time to Triangle was actually keeping the same numbers in the GPU except the clock rate, knowing that the RDNA is already more efficient per CU than GCN. Then you include the CU is bigger in RDNA 2.0 and other enhancements, most probably the same TMU, ROP setup add things up with the clock rate of 2.23 GHz.
The point is the SoC is overall smaller than XSX thus lesser heat dissipation, the reason why they were able to have such a high clock rate.
The point is the SoC is overall smaller than XSX thus lesser heat dissipation, the reason why they were able to have such a high clock rate.
pasterpl
Member
Is the Xbox Series X repeating Sony’s biggest mistake?
The Xbox Series X’s use of proprietary storage smells strongly of Sony's brilliant-but-doomed handhelds
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
If the situation was reversed some people would do as you say, some people won't.
Move on because you know FUCK about all the people in this thread, come here and blabbling about anyone discussing PS5 potential efficiency has been done several times and it's useless and incorrect.
Thank you.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
This user has been permanently removed from. This is a speculation thread. People will have theories and wait for it, speculation.
No thanks, I think I'll stay and continue to shit on secret sauce theories.
kensama
Member
You don't know? I dooesn't understand why you care about this?
Let stupid people on the both side doing their war and ignore them. You know bvoth MS and Sony fanboy are pathetic.
If really you don't car why answer like you do?
For I/O SSD and other stuff why you denied it? Are you an architect in hardware as mark cerny? The way he took is radically different than XSX Why this approach can be reduce the gap between XSX and PS5? Why many developers around the world praise this philosophy? Are you a developer?
So you are not better than those you criticism
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
So really we are at the point where someone can't discuss about how efficient Tempest or Smartshift are without you coming and calling out hypocrisy?
What?
Some people are simply intrigued by how PS5 exactly works, for example me. Shitting on stuff just for trolling has nothing to do with this.
Blitzmangoman
Member
Pretty mature.
lepermessiah
Member
ReaKs Of DeSPeRatiON iN hUrrrr
Yeah, no. Series X has more compute, yes, the GDDR6 memory bandwidth is higher, meanwhile, PS5 has advantages as well, with higher clocks, thus non-compute components will run faster, and then there's how the SSD is integrated in the system and its blistering speed that's faster than Series X (and the potential of freeing up more available ram, removing important bottlenecks, and uber-fast streaming...). One commentator on REDDIT said this:
"So in any given scene, potentially, PS5 can have 2x to 3x more details/textures/assets than XSeX. Yes, XSeX will render it faster, higher FPS or higher frame-buffer resolution (not both, perf difference is too low). But the scene itself will be less detailed, have less artwork."
So, I'm calling it now - a trade-off with some sub-4K drops and some frames lost (and not a huge amount, mind you) for a superior LOD and more detailed textures and other streamed assets in favour of PS5. The physics and A.I. edge will most likely go to series X (though the tempest engine might bridge that gap...), and obviously, the output res will be higher on average on series X, however, there's still quite a bit we don't know outside of zero-sum theoretical pissing contests.
Digital Foundry and the like will set us all straight and be prepared for some nuance, these machines are too close lmao
Yeah, no. Series X has more compute, yes, the GDDR6 memory bandwidth is higher, meanwhile, PS5 has advantages as well, with higher clocks, thus non-compute components will run faster, and then there's how the SSD is integrated in the system and its blistering speed that's faster than Series X (and the potential of freeing up more available ram, removing important bottlenecks, and uber-fast streaming...). One commentator on REDDIT said this:
"So in any given scene, potentially, PS5 can have 2x to 3x more details/textures/assets than XSeX. Yes, XSeX will render it faster, higher FPS or higher frame-buffer resolution (not both, perf difference is too low). But the scene itself will be less detailed, have less artwork."
So, I'm calling it now - a trade-off with some sub-4K drops and some frames lost (and not a huge amount, mind you) for a superior LOD and more detailed textures and other streamed assets in favour of PS5. The physics and A.I. edge will most likely go to series X (though the tempest engine might bridge that gap...), and obviously, the output res will be higher on average on series X, however, there's still quite a bit we don't know outside of zero-sum theoretical pissing contests.
Digital Foundry and the like will set us all straight and be prepared for some nuance, these machines are too close lmao
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I'm criticising hypocrisy. Not the discussing of tech. I think that the tech is interesting and worth exploring. But the constant threads/posts about how this is the silver bullet is out of control.
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Smoke6
Member
For now it does!
until a full reveal we actually still don't know and I dunno know why people are coming to this assumption as much as y'all are from a developers talk about this console!
why would a dev need to know there BC for a console they are making games for moving forward when they have dev kits for the systems before it?
that slide cerny showed, had plenty of in-used space to continue going backwards!
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Tell me what a "non-compute component" would be.
Also, is the clock higher? Maybe, or maybe it's not being boosted. Or maybe it is, and the CPU is taking the hit. The unknowns around this variable clock setup to me seem like the most impactful (for good or bad) of the specs revealed.
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rnlval
Member
I'll bite.
Math: File to load / SSD IO / compression ratio.
For XSX, 2GB / 2.4 / 1.92= 0.43 seconds (general)
For XSX, 2GB / 2.4 / 2.5 = 0.33 seconds (textures target, BCpack's "more than 6GB/s")
For desktop PC** PCI-E 4.0 NVME RAID 0, 2GB / 9.8 = 0.20 seconds. Current desktop NVMe PCI 4.0 products seems to have 5GB/s read range.
For desktop PC** PCI-E 4.0 NVME design limit, 2GB / 7 = 0.28 seconds for non-RAID config.
**Not factoring any GpGPU decompression.
SSD is magnitudes slower than GDDR6-14000 e.g.
PS5, 2 GB / 448 = 0.00446 seconds
XSX, 2 GB / 560 = 0.00356 seconds
RTX 2080 Super, 2GB / 496 = 0.00403 seconds
RTX 2080 Ti, 2 / 616 = 0.00324 seconds
---
With desktop CPU level's bandwidth consumption allocated e.g. 50 GB/s (similar to PC's 128-bit DDR4-3200's 51.2GB/s)
XSX, 2 GB / 510= 0.00392 seconds
PS5, 2 GB / 398 = 0.00502 seconds
Not factoring in memory BCx texture compression factors.
There's DCC IO from GPU for generated read/write results.
M-V2
Member
Because the SSD & the tempest engine is something new never been on a console before, don't expect people to talk about the pump in Teraflops, we are here to discuss what's new & speculate about the possibilities. I don't know why is that a hypocrisy??
Fake
Member
Crysis 1 or Crysis Collection should be on current gen long time ago. They're losing the oportunity.
Even 360/PS3 have their version.
FeiRR
Banned
Click "Report", add a description. Help mods do their work. Then click "Ignore" and smile.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Then at least quote someone and debunk, otherwise you are flaming.
There are terrible fans on both sides, few pages ago we had people pushing 9.2 TFs like it's written in the stone or "the difference in TFs is more than one PS4 bruh, it's so big" while PS5 uses the equivalent of a PS4 CPU only for audio.
Discuss or don't bait, I don't go in SeX threads repeating "lol 17% difference 10 GB audio saves GPU smartshift you all think only TFs" while we still don't know a lot about this things, or me at the very least. It would be bullshit exactly like pretending PS5 is 15 TFs now.
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TLZ
Banned
I suggest we open separate PS5 and SX only threads where fans can enjoy talking about their respective specs without fans of both sides shitting on each other. This has become very tiring. One can not have fun just discussing the specs of both anymore. There's a lot of bait and fake concern posts now.
Man... I really hope this is true. How credible is the person in this video?
3rd party's/multiplats not taking advantage of the unique features due to it being extra coding is my major concern looking forward.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
You're right, I apologise. I was taking my quarantine frustration and unfairly venting it here.
I'll just excuse myself from this thread for awhile.
Be safe, and take the greatest of care.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
It's fine, don't worry, that's why I don't like to use ignore, I know there are smart people capable of reason regardless of the starting point of the discussion.You're right, I apologise. I was taking my quarantine frustration and unfairly venting it here.
I'll just excuse myself from this thread for awhile.
Be safe, and take the greatest of care.
The fucking virus is conditioning me as well, I don't like being aggressive.
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Felessan
Member
Talk about hypocrisy.
You just want your xbox be more powerfull and don't want to have a slightest hint that PS5 might have technology advantage that invalidate XSX better raw spec.
You would like to set in stone that "xbox is better" so people will not bother you with speculations in speculation thread.
But no, some will continue, no matter how hard you rage against it.
Before consoles out, or at least real gameplay from both is shown, all these "xbox more powerfull. end of story" is a preliminary dream of xbox fans.
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JLB
Banned
Another PS5 concept design.
I kinda like it.
Interesting! looks similar in some ways to Sega Saturn
BluRayHiDef
Banned
The power difference is irrelevant. Microsoft has consistently had the most powerful console for each generation that it's released one, yet Microsoft has never won a console generation, even with a headstart of one year. Why does anyone expect any difference for the next generation? Furthermore, the in-engine trailers for the PS5 exclusives Outriders and Godfall look impressive enough to suffice as an appreaciable graphical leap over the current generation. The PS5 will be victorious yet again.
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