SonGoku
Member
Yamauchi and PD aint got no time for that type of distraction.
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Tetragrammaton_Knight
perm reply ban warning for FUD in nextGen
I have provided a VALID leak. That was posted over a year ago and has been proven right. Then I have provided further logical explanations showing how sound that leak is and how it all makes sense contrary to what some people post here.
And you provide no arguments, no logic and simply say that someone who just have taken some random number out of their *ss is right to spread misinformation and waste people's time on non-sense. Ok, if that works for you.
P.S. This is the last time I have wasted my time on you.
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Fake
Member
Valid leak? Oh, you're not answer me anymore. Suit yourself.
Radical_3d
Member
And this is risky as well. Not including a drive in a version of your console usually ends up in being bullied by the retailers, which it threatens.
Gamerguy84
Member
Uncharted 4 Animator Joins Microsoft's The Initiative
Uncharted Animator Joins Microsoft’s The Initiative
gamingbolt.com
SONY! Move out of that building, Santa Monica is doomed. At this rate, even Cory gonna jump ship!!!!111 Another gonna shit-talk over twitter? On a serious note, how many did move past few months?
Whats MS trying to accomplish, they trying to be Sony.
They tried copying
Nintendo with the Wii success. When the current gen began they copied Sony as much as they could.
Changed their controller, changed policies, tried to copy Sony as much as possible.
Throughout the gen they realized they needed 1st party studios because Sonys best stuff comes from there. So they do what they do and copy and throw money at everything.
Now they have those studios and they want everyine that works at Sonys studios.
Phil has an easy job, watch Sony and do what they do. Csnt they figure anything out for themselves?
MasterCornholio
Member
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Tetragrammaton_Knight
perm reply ban warning for FUD in nextGen
First of all, please share where you got detailed Bloomberg estimates. It looks strange, because I don't even see motherboard in this list.
Secondly, APU could be much much cheaper if they reuse scraps from XSX and put most of the chip costs into XSX price.
Thirdly $15 estimate for UHD Blu-ray seems way too low.
Fourthly PSU will also be significantly cheaper, as well as cooling, case and assembly.
And lastly, because console won't have a blu-ray drive, gamers won't be able to buy and resell physical discs and will be forced to use GamePass subscription and/or digital versions of the games, which will result in increased profits for Microsoft that they can subsequently use to drive XSS price down. Subsidize it basically.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I don't think this is any concern. She and many like her are developer 'drifters'. Go job to job on short-term contract for a few months at a time.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
They could wait until yields are high, sure, but they would still be losing a metric ton on each Lockhart sold. The one positive in that scenario is that it would possibly make Lockhart the niche model out of the two and ensure higher partition of XSX production and SKUs since the proposition of selling more versions of the unit you lose less money on (and to the people who are more likely to buy more software at the start to begin with, same with peripherals) is just the brain-dead better choice from a business POV.
That just sounds like one of the logistical/economic reasons I'd rather Lockhart (as a 4 TF local-hardware 1080p60 machine) not actually be a "thing", at least not at launch. Here's to hoping it's a streaming-focused box, it's by far the best approach to a budget next-gen option. If they want it to play games locally, have it just focus on XBO and X BC, that way you phase out need to manufacture the XBO S and X on the older process nodes and components (which will cost more over time), and through optimizing it with Xcloud it still serves as a great streaming box.
I think that type of Lockhart could get away with 12 GB RAM, lower-powered CPU, much smaller GPU (4 TF), maybe cut out the disc drive to focus it as an all-digital system, decently-sized SSD (maybe 512 GB instead of 1 TB), remove the expansion card port, make a few other changes and you can probably get it out there for $299 without taking a loss.
But marketing it would be key, and they'd have to hammer home that regarding next-gen gaming it supports it through Xcloud streaming only; if you want the native local experience, you have to buy an XSX. That's the only other way I see Lockhart working if it's not a streaming-only device, honestly.
"Damned if you do, damned if you don't". Absolutely amazing levels of salt, sir.
PS5 has more than 16GB.
They have 'a large pool' of SRAM stored in the I/O unit.
Define "large". SRAM is crazy expensive and has lower densities than DRAM, let alone NAND. If large is 16 MB - 32 MB you might be right. But more than that is honestly pushing it.
By that margin, you can try counting the caches in the GPUs and CPUs to stretch you implicating the systems have more than 16 GB RAM. You'd technically be right, but it's honestly pushing the limit of what people mean when they talk about RAM (main memory, or you can say L4/L5 memory) in gaming consoles.
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Fake
Member
Lets leave him.Shouldn't he talk toMod of War if he's providing us with inside information?
THE:MILKMAN
already provide an info about why Lockhart could be not 'that' cheap.
JerryinSoCal
Member
Would lockhart really hold the XSX back if they are both basically in the same family of tech but one is just much more capable? I would think that doing cross-gen would cause problems but doing two consoles that are basically the same just on a difference scale shouldn't cause too many problems should it?
SonGoku
Member
Even $300 is too cheap, nothing stops PS5 from hitting $400 if lockart is that cheap.
APU won't be that much smaller, they'll have 6 GDDR6 chips minimum, removing disc drive and 500GB SSD will give it an edge but not enough to be over $100 cheaper
This is one of the reasons i think lockart if it exists will launch 2-3 years later
Radical_3d
Member
Multi platforms have already to make a potato PC version. So it wouldn't be that much of a change. I'd be more concerned if it didn't include a PCIe SSD.
Tetragrammaton_Knight
perm reply ban warning for FUD in nextGen
Have you tried reading the thread first?Shouldn't he talk to
MasterCornholio
Member
Seems like they were pretty wrong about the PS5. Plus they got the SSD speed wrong for the X. It's why I have some doubts over that leak.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Fake
Member
Was the ideal, but I forget Benji mention about Microsoft stop manufacturing Xbox One X? Maybe in favor of Series?
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MasterCornholio
Member
I honestly don't see them swapping out the SSD for a HDD so I can't guess how they will get the price so low.
They could take a massive loss on the system.
Killer Sakoman
Member
Calm down people and read the article. She is a contract animator who worked on Uncharted 4 and Battlefield V with dice. Usual gamingbolt click bait.
MasterCornholio
Member
If I'm not wrong alot of times people get hired temporarily to work on a project. It's something that happens quite often on the gaming industry.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
That's the interesting thing. The difference in APU size between Lockhart and PS5 is the same as PS5 to XSX, with mostly the same fixed costs.
I suspect MS is going to charge a lot for XSX to subsidize the Series S so it looks better against PS5, otherwise it's not.
Killer Sakoman
Member
They could wait until yields are high, sure, but they would still be losing a metric ton on each Lockhart sold. The one positive in that scenario is that it would possibly make Lockhart the niche model out of the two and ensure higher partition of XSX production and SKUs since the proposition of selling more versions of the unit you lose less money on (and to the people who are more likely to buy more software at the start to begin with, same with peripherals) is just the brain-dead better choice from a business POV.
That just sounds like one of the logistical/economic reasons I'd rather Lockhart (as a 4 TF local-hardware 1080p60 machine) not actually be a "thing", at least not at launch. Here's to hoping it's a streaming-focused box, it's by far the best approach to a budget next-gen option. If they want it to play games locally, have it just focus on XBO and X BC, that way you phase out need to manufacture the XBO S and X on the older process nodes and components (which will cost more over time), and through optimizing it with Xcloud it still serves as a great streaming box.
I think that type of Lockhart could get away with 12 GB RAM, lower-powered CPU, much smaller GPU (4 TF), maybe cut out the disc drive to focus it as an all-digital system, decently-sized SSD (maybe 512 GB instead of 1 TB), remove the expansion card port, make a few other changes and you can probably get it out there for $299 without taking a loss.
But marketing it would be key, and they'd have to hammer home that regarding next-gen gaming it supports it through Xcloud streaming only; if you want the native local experience, you have to buy an XSX. That's the only other way I see Lockhart working if it's not a streaming-only device, honestly.
"Damned if you do, damned if you don't". Absolutely amazing levels of salt, sir.
Define "large". SRAM is crazy expensive and has lower densities than DRAM, let alone NAND. If large is 16 MB - 32 MB you might be right. But more than that is honestly pushing it.
By that margin, you can try counting the caches in the GPUs and CPUs to stretch you implicating the systems have more than 16 GB RAM. You'd technically be right, but it's honestly pushing the limit of what people mean when they talk about RAM (main memory, or you can say L4/L5 memory) in gaming consoles.
Thicc wall of text is the best
Tiago07
Member
Yep probably you're right.
My crazy came because of this:
"She is also one of many former PlayStation talents that The Initiative have scooped up, and joins former SIE executives, multiple God of War developers, and more at the studio. Former employees of Rockstar, Insomniac Games, and many more have also been tapped up by the studio over the last year or so."
Look at the great studios these profissionals worked !
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MasterCornholio
Member
That could work but they have to make sure it isn't alot more expensive than the PS5. Otherwise the PS5 could hit the sweet spot for many people.
Not too weak but not overly expensive.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Is the Xbox Series X RDNA stated as RDNA 2?
Where as the PS5 is known as RDNA custom?
I have a follow up question depending on the answers.
So there's a possibility both consoles have features yet to appear for RDNA 3.
Saying Custom gives room either way.
Seriously though, with such questions, you should hang out with Sokrates.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
The Bloomberg estimate was just for the SSD and was in this graph:
I reduced the SSD cost ($150) by 33% for a 500GB one. I will say I think they overestimate the SSD costs all round here though.
No way is it plausible that the XSS APU is a binned XSX APU. That would be very expensive and a total waste! I'm sure I'm missing a few bits that need adding like MB (increases BOM!)
Maybe $15 is low so say $20-$25.
I disagree about the HSF/PSU cost being too high.
The strategy of no BD and GamePass is pretty risky if it backfires. For the sake of a $20 BD drive I would put that in and ween the masses to all digital and remove it in a lter revision if possible.
What would be your full BOM estimate if you think the retail price could be $250?
bitbydeath
Member
The amount wasn't defined and only described as a large pool of RAM that will be used to carry out all of the IO tasks such as decompression to alleviate pressure on the main 16GB.
Tetragrammaton_Knight
perm reply ban warning for FUD in nextGen
SSD speed is listed 1+ Gbps, so it is not wrong. They might not have known exactly how fast SSD chips will be used.
And PS5 info there is also spot on, as it matches the github leak of early PS5 chip with 1,8Ghz GPU speed. And leaker explicitly states that PS5 design is being reworked, which we also saw in github leaks, with several generations of PS5 chips with different clock speeds.
So this whole leak is valid. And predates everything said by anyone before it, which means it wasn't taken/gathered from some other "sources".
And finally, this has specified target price of $250 for Lockhart. So in any speculation we must assume that Lockhart will be priced at $250 at launch until we get any proof showing otherwise.
Killer Sakoman
Member
The initiatives is a newly established AAA studio with large budget. It is normal to hire such talented people, otherwise, they won't be able to pull high quality game. Even naughty dogs and Santa Monica are hiring high excellent talents. I heard it is difficult to get a job within such studios due to compitition.
Fake
Member
I can't see that neither, at least if they're pushing this 'Lockhart will not hold back next gen' premisse.
SonGoku
Member
I mean no reason to keep producing the premium XB1X when the XSX takes that spot. Makes sense to keep selling XB1S/PS4Slim for emergent markets though
At best they shrink it to 500GB
If lockart is $300 then PS5 will be $400.
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MasterCornholio
Member
The Bloomberg estimate was just for the SSD and was in this graph:
I reduced the SSD cost ($150) by 33% for a 500GB one. I will say I think they overestimate the SSD costs all round here though.
No way is it plausible that the XSS APU is a binned XSX APU. That would be very expensive and a total waste! I'm sure I'm missing a few bits that need adding like MB (increases BOM!)
Maybe $15 is low so say $20-$25.
I disagree about the HSF/PSU cost being too high.
The strategy of no BD and GamePass is pretty risky if it backfires. For the sake of a $20 BD drive I would put that in and ween the masses to all digital and remove it in a lter revision if possible.
What would be your full BOM estimate if you think the retail price could be $250?
I also read that RDNA2 GPUs are expensive to make.
Do you think that they could use a previous iteration of RDNA or an extremely cut version of RDNA2 to save costs?
MasterCornholio
Member
Lockhart could play games with a HDD but the experience would be horrible compared to the other systems.
Lockhart had to be good. It can't be trash even at a lower price point. Otherwise people won't buy it.
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Fake
Member
Indeed. At the time I saw the seX specs I guessed seX would take the XB1X place of being a 'premium' console.
Both PS5 and seX have no problems using HDD, but if next gen is about SSD (loading time compared with current gen) I can't see much sense Lockhart using a HDD.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Could they go with a much slower SSD? I mean it won't be anywhere near as slow as a HDD and at a much lower resolution it might work okay.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
The 7nm process is said to be quite a bit more expensive than 16nm and I'm fairly sure the XSS APU will still be >200mm2.
No I think it has to be the exact same arch just cut down on the GPU and possibly lower CPU clocks and 12GB RAM.
MasterCornholio
Member
What about the fact that the price of Ram and storage increased alot recently.
Can't that affect the 250$ target? They could always cut it more to reach that price point but I doubt it.
SonGoku
Member
Nope that would break compatibility, same speed but halve the density of each chip for 500GB
What would they gain by making cpu clocks lower though? it'll just make development more complicated that it needs to be
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Totally wrong.
Tetragrammaton_Knight
perm reply ban warning for FUD in nextGen
The Bloomberg estimate was just for the SSD and was in this graph:
I reduced the SSD cost ($150) by 33% for a 500GB one. I will say I think they overestimate the SSD costs all round here though.
No way is it plausible that the XSS APU is a binned XSX APU. That would be very expensive and a total waste! I'm sure I'm missing a few bits that need adding like MB (increases BOM!)
Maybe $15 is low so say $20-$25.
I disagree about the HSF/PSU cost being too high.
The strategy of no BD and GamePass is pretty risky if it backfires. For the sake of a $20 BD drive I would put that in and ween the masses to all digital and remove it in a lter revision if possible.
What would be your full BOM estimate if you think the retail price could be $250?
Ok, so you were trying to guess the numbers. Unfortunately, I don't have any BOM estimates and it will take hours and hours of poking around to get something close to reality. I don't have that much free time to spare on this topic.
Regarding XSX chip reuse - why do you think it does not make sense? Why AMD is reusing the same APU chip in all laptop models, from bottom to top? It makes total sense - no additional development costs for second chip (only this alone is already estimated at several hundred million dollars for 7nm), most of the XSX discarded chips will not be scrapped but used now in XSS, if that won't be enough, then fully working XSX chips will be used to build XSS. And most importantly you can offset most of the costs (if not all) into XSX price, which will make the chip basically free for XSS.
Also, I have previously posted this list of things potentially hinting at XSX chip reuse in XSS:
- Very low target price for XSS at $250. It would be much easier to achieve this target if chip costs would be shifted on to XSX buyers.
- Virtually ZERO leaks about any second chip being developed by AMD for MS. Although we have numerous leaks of 2 consoles, not once there was mentioned a second chip.
- Current XSX dev-kits having both XSX mode and XSS mode. So one single chip is used to develop for both consoles.
So I suggest just to wait and see, this point is not worth speculating any further at the moment.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
Lockhart $300
Book. It.
Book. It.
MasterCornholio
Member
So assuming the leak is correct.
XSS: 249$
PS5: 399$
XSX: 499$
Then what's with the rumors that Sony is concerned about price? Seems like a pretty good placement to me.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Neo Blaster
Member
Replace SSD for HDD is totally pointless, you can scale resolution and fps back, but there's no way around a slower storage.
Metroiddarks
Member
Also could be Xbox has a big stock without any new big to release for first parties until holidays and even in the side of
the third parties will be un until Cyberpunk so they think is not necessary to continue to produce more for now.
SonGoku
Member
Just made this tweet and folks, listen to the video, it seems like John Linneman from Digital Foundry is saying TFLOPS on paper aren't that important and that it may not be as suggested on paper, this podcast just ended hours ago......I know this thread and the tweet that I made are gonna get a whole lot of COW SHIT STORM!!
But it is the truth.
account suspended what happened?
Fake
Member
Tweet not avaliable.
Fake
Member
Tetragrammaton_Knight
perm reply ban warning for FUD in nextGen
Ok, but by the time the production of next-gen consoles starts the prices could go down significantly. We are on a verge of huge economic depression/crisis and nobody knows how each component market will react in the next 3-4 months. Also, MS could have signed some hard future contract long time ago with specific prices for most of the components. Who knows.
So simply not worth trying to guess it now, too many variables. And no matter the market prices, IMHO Microsoft first of all will adjust their consoles prices relative to PS5 price. And they can take a hit, sell at loss (which happened numerous times before in the past, so not something new) just to be competitive and gain market share from Sony. Because this is what they target for - regain marketshare lost by XBox One.
And yeah, MS could have ditched XSS idea all together and we might not see it at all.
That leak mentions $399 for 8+Tflops version of PS5, which was supposed to be launched in 2019. And it also states that PS5 console is being reworked, which was further confirmed by github leaks with multiple chips for PS5.
So $399 is what Sony has targeted for release in 2019, trying to undercut MS and go next-gen earlier. But something went wrong and they now have an updated console version, what price they target now we don't know. And I haven't seen any recent valid leaks, except speculation that the price went up to $450-500.
We just have to wait and see.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
That's my guess as well.
XSS $299
XSX $499
PS5 is the wildcard. I am guessing $399-449 because Sony wants to stay competitive on price.
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