ethomaz
Banned
Mesh Shaders are done by Primitive Shader unit inside the Geometry Engine.
RDNA can do Mesh Shaders.
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RDNA can do Mesh Shaders.
ethomaz
Banned
Compared with last generation.
Cerny talk specifically about GE to perform primitive shading that is indeed new with RDNA and Turing.
The API side the same.
For example Turing have hardware support to Mesh Shaders since Turing launch in 2018 while AMD added Primitive Shader Units to GE with RDNA in 2019.
MS only supported it with DX12U released few weeks ago... 2 years after the hardware.
Sony will support that now in their API... something new and not present in PS4/PS4 Pro.
There is nothing weird at all... it is really new to consoles.
On PC even without the feature being supported directly by the API you have extension to use it in DX11, DX12, Vulkan and OpenGL.
Consoles lacked hardware and software support for Mesh/Primitive Shader.
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ethomaz
Banned
Well 12nm is just 16nm+++ rebranded so 7nm is a big move for them and probably allow that much more into the GPU at same time.
Clocks should reach new levels too.
That is the biggest advantage from nVidia over AMD... they have a better GPU tech even with a dated lithography process.
The scenario is different from Intel that always had the lithography process advantage and when they lose it (Intel 10nm lol) they suffered a big loss to AMD.
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Shmunter
Member
You could be right. However from memory, culling triangles and vertexes was discussed as the task of the Geometry Engine. Obviously mesh/primitive shaders do the opposite and could be a feature of a single unit.
Whether the full feature set Sony was talking about is part of stock RDN2 is inconclusive tho unless I'm missing something.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
He doesn't seem to ever say 'APU'. Just 'main custom chip' or 'silicon die'. He does say the following that makes me pretty sure it is a APU:
Mark Cerny said:
ZywyPL
Banned
Michael Pachter's second account? ;p
Neo Blaster
Member
So many generations and people still think the first footage is console gameplay? Exceptions apart(GOW first trailer), everything comes from PC first, ye olde downgradable material.
EventHorizon
Member
There are different bottlenecks for rendering a frame. It's not all about the teraflop count. You can have all the teraflops in the world, but if you don't have the data for them to work on, you can't do anything. That's why loading screens and other tricks exist. It's not that the GPU can't draw the frame. It's that the full data to draw it isn't ready. The fact that data needs to be streamed is one of the main reasons why open world games look less graphically complex than linear games even though they both run on the same hardware.
The PS5's SSD greatly reduces the streaming bottleneck. It allows the 10TF to more efficiently be utilized. With it you don't have to limit the graphical complexity of the game because of streaming issues. You don't have to use as much duplicate gemorty and textures. You can load more animation data. You can load more sound. You can have more light probes to improve illumination. And so on. That kind of stuff doesn't significantly affect computational requirements, but it does make the final results look and feel a lot better.
Handy Fake
Member
It's like putting a Ferrari engine in a Mini Cooper.
Vaztu
Member
Only recently found him, so have no idea what about his claims; but others don't seem to find him credible.
It's interesting how two Youtubers came to the same conclusion about 6 months apart (foxy and moore's). Either they talked to each-other/ same source OR found out info independently from different sources OR both are bullshitting but with the same scoop.
Either way, time will tell us who are credible among the sea of insiders.
Thanks to
Snowdonhoffen
for posting this video here first.
EventHorizon
Member
Microsoft's amplification shader can paradoxically be used to cull geometry. Mesh/primitive shaders can do it to. It's all part of RDNA2 because all they are is new capability to allow some of the gemetry processing functionality that was hardwired into the GPU to now be under the control of a shader program written by the devs. With them, the devs can do whatever they want to the geometry. They can programmatically add geometry to add detail, or they can take it away to improve performance based on whatever criteria they decide.
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PaintTinJr
Member
As per the NV Mesh Shading demo:
This is how both consoles will handle the geometry, A LOT of resources saved on things no one would even noticed. The close-ups/cut-scenes will be glorious on next-gen systems.
When Cerny was talking about the Geometry Engine he made reference to eliminating back facing triangles - presumably he meant the drawcalls for back facing triangles getting eliminated before the mesh shading happens.
So in the example from the Nvidia mesh shading video, using LOD 1, the model has 20 polygons and is roughly cuboid with 6-sides, and only 3-sides facing the camera at anyone one time, and their picture seems to show 10 visible polygons as expected. But in their video, the model will still be 20 polygons and the polygons facing away from the camera are a 50% waste in drawcalls. So I'm now thinking, that what Mark was trying to highlight is that the GE will save those drawcalls giving mesh shading 30-50% more capability, meaning that the polygon counts in the GE could be double a GPU without GE at the same LOD, or could render with a lower LOD, but same visible detail.
It might seem like a pretty small benefit, but with cube maps and shadow maps all wanting the best LOD level for models in their own frustum/view, this feature could be a major win (IMHO). It will be interesting to see if it is complimentary to RT BVH acceleration structures, too.
It reminds me of ATI providing an offline model optimisation tool (in the PS3/360 generation) to re-wind polygons in a model to reduce overdraw – by winding them so that polygons closer to the model origin were typically sent later for drawing, so that outer (front facing) polygons were already rendered – causing redundant fragments to statistically fail the depth test more frequently – irony being that the nvidia products like the PS3's RSX benefited the most because of the lower fill-rate and higher polygon throughput.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
I think a better way to think about it is without the SSD (HDD) these consoles would be like sports cars, but with the SSD/IO they get turned into F1 cars.
If Sony/MS had spent their budget on further GPU/CPU power they would be selling you a Buggatti, but by going this route they built a Formula 1 car. Not as fast on a straight line, but they gave power the freedom it needs to express itself in other ways.
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Can the culls be done before draw calls?
EventHorizon
Member
A CPU without data is like a car without gas. Neither is doing anything. The equivalent of before SSDs is a Ferrari that had a very tiny gas tank, which limited where it could go. If there were many gas stations around, it could go all out, but if there weren't, either it couldn't go there at all or had to reduce its speed to improve its gas millage.
So a better car analogy is that the PS5 gave the Ferrari a big enough gas tank that it could go wherever it wanted at full speed even if there weren't gas stations around.
EventHorizon
Member
Absolutely. A game only tries to draw what is immediately around the player. So if you are outside, the game isn't going to try to draw the interior of room two blocks away. Most of the level data is culled this way because it's easy to determine that you are nowhere near it. Things go to the GPU for culling when they are closer and you don't really know if it should be culled until you do some more calculations at greater detail. For example it's possible that you could see the back side of a box in front of you. You only know you can't when you do the calculation to find out that side is facing away.
martino
Member
But am i wrong or software (as games exploiting the feature) don't exist at all for now even on pc ?
Darius87
Member
i think ps5 GE is customized from rdna2.0 that's why they talked about like it's big deal ms talked about VRS which we know GE is superior to VRS and that's why sony didn't mention VRS even if ps5 supports it, also that would suggest that this customized GE will be only in ps5 other way ms also would had it if was standart RDNA 2.0 feature but ms didn't even talked about it so asume it's not there. at this point all major features are out of the bag for both consoles.
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ethomaz
Banned
Games can uses Mesh Shaders via extension on Turing GPUs.
If there is any that already use I have do to more research.
This is a demo from 2018:
This demo uses Mesh Shaders with Vulkan Extension:
Humus - 3D
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SportsFan581
Member
VRS and Primitive shaders are different forms of culling, they should be used together. MS spent a great deal of time talking about primitive shaders, so I'm not sure why anyone would say they didn't.
AudioSlave92210
Member
But with ray-tracing, what happens with the culling. Take the reflections for an example, you can't have a reflections of an object outside of the viewpoint if it's culled?
I don't understand how it can work with ray-tracing. For a good ray-tracing, you need to simulate the light bounces even on the back face of the objects?
I don't understand how it can work with ray-tracing. For a good ray-tracing, you need to simulate the light bounces even on the back face of the objects?
martino
Member
Games can uses Mesh Shaders via extension on Turing GPUs.
If there is any that already use I have do to more research.
This is a demo from 2018:
This demo uses Mesh Shaders with Vulkan Extension:
Humus - 3D
www.humus.name
probably i wasn't clear . i know this demo i was asking if i missed a game using it.
EventHorizon
Member
The Geometry engine is just the PS5 API for using geometry shaders on the RDNA2 GPU. Microsoft calls them mesh and amplification shaders in their DirectX Ultimate API. It's just different names for the same thing.
The geometry engine is not superior to VRS. They each do different things and will have different performance effects based on what you are trying to draw in the frame. It's almost a certainty that the PS5 and XSX will have the capability to do both.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
Looks like that new Assassins Creed Trailer did not have any gameplay footage. Schrier is right, most likely we'll have to wait till next week to see something, also looks like the Series X event will be next week as well. And Sony will will likely be doing their event on June 4th if that ResetEra leak was correct.
EventHorizon
Member
That's a real problem. I saw a video, don't remember where, talking about a bug in the ray traced Minecraft caused by something like this. Culling was removing ceiling blocks at the far end of a tunnel because they couldn't be seen. However, that made the ray traced lighting think it was open to the sky, so it made the end of the tunnel light up. My guess is that the solution to this is to code in hints that certain things shouldn't be culled.
B_Boss
Member
Interestingly enough dude (and I'm sure you already know this but still awesome to read again anyways):
sources:
1 - https://www.videogameschronicle.com/features/who-is-mark-cerny/
2 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Cerny
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Rusco Da Vino
Member
?
He did not claim that this "leak" is his, he is just speculating about it.
In fact, it is public how he knows about that "info":
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FranXico
Member
Ah, I see. Thanks.
ThisIsMyDog
Member
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Vaztu
Member
MLID does say he is getting leaks about the new Horizon. Correcting his wording from "I'm seeing" to "I'm getting". I didn't think he talked about leaks from other Youtubers without mentioning them.
Uzupedro
Member
Ahmad usually talks about things that are going to happen soon, if it's not the same day, it's at most 1 or 2 days later, and he usually gets it right.
Gediminas
Banned
your comment is vogue, can you elaborate?
Ptarmiganx2
Member
I'm open to bets that nothing Microsoft shows will touch Horizon 2. Despite the TF "gap" Sony has the hardware configuration they think will fuel next gen. It's a different approach, but I think after seeing it in action it will be impossible to continue justifying TF as the sole measurement of power. It's something the pundits are going to have to see in action to believe, but I have a feeling all the TF press in the world will be put to rest...
Rusco Da Vino
Member
Man, it is public how he knows about that. I just posted his tweet.
So if you want to discredit the guy for something he did not do, go ahead, this thread is full of FUD and false claims.
I am not here to talk about grammar or provide moral lessons about how other people need to credit the info/leaks they get.
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Agnostic2020
Member
I m sure ms will annouce the xss reveal event today for May 7th .
Thedtrain
Member
HYPE
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Finally someone confirms game showings....
Interesting they specifically say Series X games. Still not ready to acknowledge Lockhart?
Interesting they specifically say Series X games. Still not ready to acknowledge Lockhart?
So, they don´t show first party titles? because the tweet says "Check out First Look next-gen gameplay from our global developers partners " So they will show third party titles?
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Agnostic2020
Member
Haha what do u know. I was right .May 7
Bladed Thesis
Member
Here we go
marvifrom
Member
There is no Lockhart my friend.
Agnostic2020
Member
So do we think xss reveal is here or they keep it for June?
Uzupedro
Member
MS usually calls their First Parties that way. In addition, it may be that they have partnerships, which are not necessarily XBOX exclusive, that will use the MS stage for Marketing, so they end up having to use this term to encompass everyone.
Andodalf
Banned
What else would they say? That's the name of the console
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