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[sircaw]

Well, I like our traditional Dhofari way of meat cooked on stone, but seems there is enough room for variation.

Not me FS, the Fat CAT.

Stop spreading your FUD, Phil.

 

[Throttle]

Say that there is a 399 digital and a 499 disc drive, but the digital only makes up 35-40 percent of produced models... It gives sony the "now starting at 399" price point im sure they covet but also sort of forces buyers to buy the more expensive model. Just because it starts at 399 doesnt mean all the PS5s sold will be 399 thus incurring this huge loss. Plus the money made from digital downloads from the digital ps5. Its alot more grey than just "sony is going to lose x amount of losses at 399." Not to mention we dont know how much sony makes off of ps4 hardware. A 299 ps4, and 499 ps5 dics drive might be enough to make up for whatever loss a 399 ps5 digital would lose.

Perhaps something like this, pure speculation on my part of course:

299 PS4- 50-100 Profit
399 PS5 Digital: 100 Dollar Loss
499 PS5 Disc Drive: Break even

Sony would essentially be breaking even on hardware and profiting from software and services, thats not terrible for a new console launch. But who knows.

PS4 needs to drop to 199 already. Make it a cheap entry point to the ecosystem.

 

[sircaw]

I hope DAGamez is not going to blow a gasket at the above joke, he has been riding me hard all day.

In a none sexual way fs Bo

 

[SportsFan581]

Just out of interest, how can SFS "stack" with zlib-esq RDO'd texture compression? I get that SFS can work with BCn - the textures are random access addressable - but how does SFS save SSD IO bandwidth while trying to randomly access subsets of BCn textures that are using non-random access compression?

If you have to decompress the BCpack textures to RAM first, then benefit with SFS by only keeping the subset you are using, you won't get any IO benefit from SFS - only GPU processing saved and RAM residency saved. But yet again, the PS5 can do all of this too, just with a hardware based IO complex that is more effective and more Raw SSD throughput, so it seems like the Microsoft Engineer is being co-oped to spreading misinformation, or correct information in the wrong context to deceive - will be really interested if SFS can make savings by accessing the subset data without having to decompress the BCn textures to RAM first.

Could it be why they went with their own compression, rather than an off-the-shelf solution? I guess we'll see it in action at some point, or not.

 

[SportsFan581]

I hope DAGamez is not going to blow a gasket at the above joke, he has been riding me hard all day.

In a none sexual way fs Bo

I think I must have missed the joke in my direction completely. Oops, my bad.

I enjoy interacting with everybody (even if I make a fool of myself in comparison to some of these really technical users).

 

[Bo_Hazem]

According to Cerny PS5 has SSD with 5.5 GB/s, but that's average or peak?

5GB/s raw (at least) was the target, it's sustained.

 

[sircaw]

I think I must have missed the joke in my direction completely. Oops, my bad.

I enjoy interacting with everybody (even if I make a fool of myself in comparison to some of these really technical users).

Like wise brother, i am not technically minded at all, and i make mistakes just like everyone out there. As long as you have a sense of humour and can have a laugh and not get to upset, that's all that counts in my eyes.

In the end we are all gamer's, we have a common goal somewhere in all this mess.

Sleep doctor will Blow another Gasket if he reads this.

 

[AeneaGames]

Yes, cute, especially under the magnification of a hunters scope.
With that said Peace to you my furry friend .

Nah, we cool, look:

 

[sircaw]

Nah, we cool, look:

Your to nice to pick a fight with, DAMMIT.

 

[sircaw]

Btw, when are we getting an Xbox hype Choo choo, yes i know that sounded like i was a bloody 10 year old.

Could be one of those Handcars, you know the one that pushes up and down. Better hide now.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Don't worry is clear for me you are not game developer.

But as part of be dev in understand when a new technology is presented, you should understand it as much as you can instead just quote.

See if exists a predecessor of that technology and see if is enough to be presented as feature/improvement to a possible client of the lead of you project.

In the personal I cannot make a presentation in this way:

-Me: With X technology we reduce the footprint in memory in 66%
-Lead project: good but this a new technology with any precedent?because sounds too cool
-Me: I don't know I just use first paragraph of the home page of the company who presented this technology
-Lead project: Do you what ? wait this is not basically the same we used in the last project as part of Y software solution
-Me: I don't know I never checked but the buzzwords are awesome
-Lead: And can we used always ? because is just too good to not have any cost
-Me: yes why not the video say it
-Lead: ....

When in reality should be:

-Me: boss did you remember the Y software solution?
-Lead: yes why?
-Me: now is part of the new API and they reduce the cost of use it, but we still need to think the best way of use it as you now is not free
-Lead: still sounds awesome so we don't need waste so many time for the next project, please present the improvement against the
only software solution for the next meeting

Are you having random made up conversations with yourself now? Maybe time to put me on ignore because it's getting ridiculous.

 

[pawel86ck]

5GB/s raw (at least) was the target, it's sustained.

I will believe you, but only because I will be buying PS5 for myself and I want PS5 SSD to be faster rather than slower. Maybe multiplatform games will not use it, but ND and other developers will.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I hope DAGamez is not going to blow a gasket at the above joke, he has been riding me hard all day.

In a none sexual way fs Bo

 

[sircaw]

WTF is going on hah

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Geometry culling is common practice and nothing new the textures are in memory already before the geometry is culled. You are absolutely loading texture data for geometry that becomes culled. Have you ever waited for a level to load .. its loading the textures.... then a small amount of extra textures are streamed.

13.5 x 2.5 = 33.4 gbytes .. i was being conservative by saying effective 24-32 gigs equivalent ram usage.

Spoiler

 

[FeiRR]

WTF is going on hah

Jelly of a big fish, gill breather?

 

[sircaw]

Jelly of a big fish, gill breather?

Fs Winston. No 3d Chess.

 

[Fordino]

So, the only video supposedly running in real-time on XSX is from a game releasing exclusively for PC right now? When did we get into inverted world?

I think it is a bit cheeky from Microsoft.

They're happy for people to assume it's Series X footage, cos of the XBox logo (for Game Pass) and 'captured in real-time 4K' text, but as someone else mentioned it is very likely to be PC footage.

How many PC players play at 4K?

 

[IntentionalPun]

So, the only video supposedly running in real-time on XSX is from a game releasing exclusively for PC right now? When did we get into inverted world?

Huh? There's a beta coming out in a month for PC.. the game is going to release simultaneously isn't it?

 

[MasterCornholio]

WTF is going on hah

WTF is going on hah

Spoiler: We all know how the story ends.

 

[sircaw]

Spoiler: We all know how the story ends.

When i say man i mean AMANDA.
Correct image, wait no, don't lol.... no no no

 

[Metroiddarks]

Are you having random made up conversations with yourself now? Maybe time to put me on ignore because it's getting ridiculous.

Do whatever you want man is a free world.

I wish you luck trying to use "arguments" based in marketing quotes or personal preferences in the same forum where I am.

 

[prinz_valium]

5GB/s raw (at least) was the target, it's sustained.

Let's hope they achieve that and won't drop to 4.5 or 4GBs under heavy load when a first party optimizes.
We need to see the console teardown. I want to know how they cool their SSD controller.

Or is the controller put into the main SOC silicon? But that would make the SOC much bigger and more expensive.

 

[Lethal01]

Ah, because multipliers are so much better than actual numbers, so deceptive...

what kind of numbers would you consider useful?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Let's hope they achieve that and won't drop to 4.5 or 4GBs under heavy load when a first party optimizes.
We need to see the console teardown. I want to know how they cool their SSD controller.

Or is the controller put into the main SOC silicon? But that would make the SOC much bigger and more expensive.

That's why every module has its own channel (12-channel for 12 modules), so yes, I doubt it'll make any serious heat to begin with. But 4-channel for 16 modules? You figure that out.

 

[Lethal01]

Just out of interest, how can SFS "stack" with zlib-esq RDO'd texture compression? I get that SFS can work with BCn - the textures are random access addressable - but how does SFS save SSD IO bandwidth while trying to randomly access subsets of BCn textures that are using non-random access compression?

If you have to decompress the BCpack textures to RAM first, then benefit with SFS by only keeping the subset you are using, you won't get any IO benefit from SFS - only GPU processing saved and RAM residency saved. But yet again, the PS5 can do all of this too, just with a hardware based IO complex that is more effective and more Raw SSD throughput, so it seems like the Microsoft Engineer is being co-oped to spreading misinformation, or correct information in the wrong context to deceive - will be really interested if SFS can make savings by accessing the subset data without having to decompress the BCn textures to RAM first.

Feel free to ask him about that instead of me.

Also yeah, Non of this is meant to imply that only xbox can do it, I'm just talking about the tech itself.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

That's why every module has its one channel (12-channel for 12 modules), so yes, I doubt it'll make any serious heat to begin with. But 4-channel for 16 modules? You figure that out.

What is 4-channel and 16 modules, Bo?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What is 4-channel and 16 modules, Bo?

Low tier NVME are 4-channel, high tier are 8-channel. PS5 is 12-channel for a 1:1 relation.

To build M.2 SSDs supporting a PCIe 4.0 x4 interface, new controllers are (obviously) needed, and right now the only company that has them ready is Phison. In fact, the company is readying two such controllers: the PS5016-E16 for high-end drives, as well as the PS5019-E19 for mainstream drives. The E16 has eight 800 MT/s NAND channels for ultimate parallelism and sequential read performance of up to 5 GB/s (write speeds depend on the actual chips/SSD capacity, in the best case scenario it is said to reach up to 4.4 GB/s), whereas the E19 has four NAND channels to minimize the die size and cost.

Phison’s PS5016-E16 & PS5019-E19: The First PCIe 4.0 Client SSD Controllers

www.anandtech.com

 

[kyliethicc]

Considering the front cover design so far, what would we see in case there is a XSS? 'XBOX SERIES - XBOX ONE'?

Lockhart won't play discs. So it has no box art. Digital only.

This 4th gen of Xbox is just called "Xbox" and there will be Series X or S, both will play "Xbox" (really Xbox 4) games. That's why the Series X game case can't just says Xbox Series X, it has to just say Xbox. Then have the "Optimized for Series X" logo thing. But Lockhart is discless, so the game cases are only for Series X.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Low tier NVME are 4-channel, high tier are 8-channel. PS5 is 12-channel for a 1:1 relation.

To build M.2 SSDs supporting a PCIe 4.0 x4 interface, new controllers are (obviously) needed, and right now the only company that has them ready is Phison. In fact, the company is readying two such controllers: the PS5016-E16 for high-end drives, as well as the PS5019-E19 for mainstream drives. The E16 has eight 800 MT/s NAND channels for ultimate parallelism and sequential read performance of up to 5 GB/s (write speeds depend on the actual chips/SSD capacity, in the best case scenario it is said to reach up to 4.4 GB/s), whereas the E19 has four NAND channels to minimize the die size and cost.

Phison’s PS5016-E16 & PS5019-E19: The First PCIe 4.0 Client SSD Controllers

www.anandtech.com

I agree 4-channel is probable for the XSX SSD but I was more curious about the 16 modules. I think the XSX SSD is something very similar to the below Toshiba BG4.

Everything contained in a single small chip and it looks to be a very similar size to the XSX SSD minus the heat sink casing.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Yeah, hellblade 2 in real time... People will set themselves to massive disappointment.

But is real time, any studio will make a prerender scene to a fraction of 4k to only 24 fps.

The thing is see how good that looks running in a XSX not a PC with steroids.

If I have to speculate they will try to reach that graphic fidelity quitting to 60 fps for 30 fps
and using directml in order to reach or be close to 4k, If this happens is good for me.

This could be the first big game of Xbox studios not released in the old gen because you know
the old gen doesn't hold back anything is just for the memes.

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

I predict PS5 will be:

Drive 449
Digital 399

And they will disappear from shelves like hot cakes in a winter morning...

 

[Neo Blaster]

Lockhart won't play discs. So it has no box art. Digital only.

This 4th gen of Xbox is just called "Xbox" and there will be Series X or S, both will play "Xbox" (really Xbox 4) games. That's why the Series X game case can't just says Xbox Series X, it has to just say Xbox. Then have the "Optimized for Series X" logo thing. But Lockhart is discless, so the game cases are only for Series X.

And you know Lockart is discless how?

 

[sircaw]

I predict PS5 will be:

Drive 449
Digital 399

And they will disappear from shelves like hot cakes in a winter morning...

Run for an election, you got my vote.

 

[pasterpl]

Inside Unreal: The Coalition on Gears 5 and Gears Tactics

WHAT Let’s give a warm welcome to The Coalition! They will cover the latest from The Coalition such as Gears Tactics on PC, and Gears 5 on Xbox Series X - while revisiting some of their tech from Gears 5 like Facial Animation systems, Dynamic Character Rigs, Lighting, Cover System and...

forums.unrealengine.com

WHAT
Let's give a warm welcome to The Coalition! They will cover the latest from The Coalition such as Gears Tactics on PC, and Gears 5 on Xbox Series X - while revisiting some of their tech from Gears 5 like Facial Animation systems, Dynamic Character Rigs, Lighting, Cover System and Streaming/level setup. Join us for an opportunity to get to know more about these titles and ask your questions during the Q&A.

WHEN
Thursday, July 16 @ 2:00PM ET - Countdown

WHERE
Twitch

WHO
Mike Rayner: Studio Technical Director, The Coalition - @MikeJRayner
Colin Penty - Studio Technical Art Director, The Coalition - @colinpenty
David Coleman - Technical Art Director, The Coalition
Nick Christiani - Lead Level Designer, The Coalition
Victor Brodin - Community Manager - @victor1erp

RESOURCES
Gears Tactics uses the Gears formula brilliantly to offer a fresh tactical experience

not sure if posted already

 

[Physiognomonics]

So, the only video supposedly running in real-time on XSX is from a game releasing exclusively for PC right now? When did we get into inverted world?

They already confirmed that what they showed was running on a 2080ti.

32 GB RAM, RTX 2080 Ti Used to Run Microsoft Flight Simulator on X019

During the X019 event, numeruos materials from Microsoft Flight Simulator were presented. One of Reddit users, participating in the event, revealed the hardware specs of the computer used to run the game, and shared his impressions about the title.

www.gamepressure.com

Edit: apparently it's from a reddit user, nothing official. But yes, if they didn't confirm it's actually running on a Xbox... then it's most probably not.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

I remember when I said that this game could run 4k 60fps, you had the usual suspects with their lol emoticons. I mean how could you not see that the majority of what's being pushed here is as a result of the blazing SSD. I can see games running at 4k 60fps on PS5 with even more of a budget for facial details and ATD than what we saw in the Unreal demo....And of course PS Studios will do just that.....

The Unreal demo was just a glimpse of what PS5 can do, roughly it's texturing and lighting capability, it was not meant to show 4k 60fps. I told folk with time if this turns out to be a real game, it can easily do 4k 60fps with more dev time, and lo and behold......

UE5 demo was meant to show the technology with raw input to demonstrate its efficiency. It was running an advanced light that was running fully in real time.
Developers can effectively combine it with baked lights to ease it on gpu. Also developerscan vary textures quality. They don't need 8 k texture all the time. We should get games running with same graphics at higher resolution in probably 3 years.

 

[kyliethicc]

And you know Lockart is discless how?

I'm just guessing. The box art only saying Xbox One and Xbox Series X seems to indicate this. I think it's a cheaper digital console designed to sell GamePass, a digital only service.

here's my guess on Xbox Lockhart specs.

same CPU as Series X
same SSD as Series X
20 CUs @ 1.625 GHz
9 GB GDDR6 @ 336 GB/s
no disc drive
no expansion card slot
HDMI 2.0b out port
2 USB ports
cheaper cooling
smaller power supply
compact box design

$300 / $25 per month for 24 months (Xbox All Access)
Holiday 2020

 

[SynTha1]

I'm still standing by my prediction of $349.99 diskless
$449.99 disk version ps5 dominates regardless but at these prices it will be totally annihilation.

 

[MasterCornholio]

no expansion card slot

What you said seems reasonable but I disagree with Microsoft leaving out an expansion slot for the memory. I don't think it will break the BoM if they include it in the system. Plus people will worry less about space if they have that option.

Just my opinion.

 

[Neo Blaster]

The box art only saying Xbox One and Xbox Series X seems to indicate this.

Considering there's no official announcement so far, it would be strange if it was there. My question regarded how MS would reference it in the front cover if it was already announced.

 

[pawel86ck]

What I'm surprised is seeing the lack of understanding on your part about any technical terms.

Currently something similar is already done with software now like with the Far Cry 4 (Adaptive Virtual Texture) and even now UE (Virtual texturing)
can do the same, only now Xbox introduce this as part of its API and use hardware to reduce but not eliminate the overhead in your
CPU when you are using it, is very important companies like Xbox introduce this kind of technologies to its API for a simple reason not all
the devs will have the time or money to introduce this to its respective engine so have already as part of your API of Direct 12 ultimate
with a reduce overhead compare to the last gen is good news for them.

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gdc2015/presentations/Chen_Ka_AdaptiveVirtualTexture.pdf
https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Rendering/VirtualTexturing/index.html#:~:text=Unreal Engine 4 (UE4) supports,Streaming Virtual Texturing (SVT).&text=Supports very large texture resolutions,by the GPU at runtime.

This reminds me of 2013 when basically Tiled resources were used as magic thing.

They mentioned SF cannot be used in every texture request, in addition this same technology is 100% compatible with turing
(it is almost as if it was not exclusive), think if it was so spectacular you would have NVIDIA using it as a basic marketing
weapon.

I'm not a software developer, so of course my technical knowledge is limited. I however always read what experts have to say and try to understand how certain things works.

Jason Ronald build XSX therefore he is a real expert in my book. No offence man, but I prefer to trust him rather than listen to some random dude like you.

 

[Brudda26]

I'm not a software developer, so of course my technical knowledge is limited. I however always read what experts have to say and try to understand how certain things works.

Jason Ronald build XSX therefore he is a real expert in my book. No offence man, but I prefer to trust him rather than listen to some random dude like you.

The point is your misunderstanding what jason is saying

 

[splattered]

Because Sony always goes for "elegance" and put a ton of over engineered tech in this system i am expecting it to come in at $599, maybe $549 at the most.

Digital version $499 as the only difference is it's missing the disc drive. It still has all of the other overly expensive tech in it including the sure to be overly expensive controller. Then again maybe that's the key... the console won't have a disc drive AND controllers sold separately? $349 with no controller?

Xbox disc version i have no idea... i'm expecting anywhere from $399 to $499

If there is a Lockhart it's hard to put a number down on paper until we know true specs. For the sake of a guess i'll just throw $299 out there.

 

[Entroyp]

Because Sony always goes for "elegance" and put a ton of over engineered tech in this system i am expecting it to come in at $599, maybe $549 at the most.

Digital version $499 as the only difference is it's missing the disc drive. It still has all of the other overly expensive tech in it including the sure to be overly expensive controller. Then again maybe that's the key... the console won't have a disc drive AND controllers sold separately? $349 with no controller?

Xbox disc version i have no idea... i'm expecting anywhere from $399 to $499

If there is a Lockhart it's hard to put a number down on paper until we know true specs. For the sake of a guess i'll just throw $299 out there.

What's elegant or over engineered about the PS4 and PS4pro? Sound to me like they fell short on that regard in order to reduce cost.

 

[Darklor01]

What's elegant or over engineered about the PS4 and PS4pro? Sound to me like they fell short on that regard in order to reduce cost.

I laugh when I read stuff like this. The Xbox Series X has just as many solutions in their box and somehow the PS has been over engineered. Lol. The biggest two differentiators being fix clocks vs. variable, and SSD Speeds.

Other than that, they've taken different approaches to things and have code names for them. Velocity, Kraken, ...etc.

 

[kyliethicc]

Considering there's no official announcement so far, it would be strange if it was there. My question regarded how MS would reference it in the front cover if it was already announced.

I think I understand you... I don't think the game cover will ever mention Series S/Lockhart. It's only going to be bought for Series X because I think Lockhart won't play discs. So the physical game case for Halo Infinite will only say Xbox One / Series X because Lockhart won't be able to play that disc.

I think the official box art for Far Cry 6 is final and official. It will not need to change after Lockhart is announced because it still won't mention it on the physical game case. I think.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I think I understand you... I don't think the game cover will ever mention Series S/Lockhart. It's only going to be bought for Series X because I think Lockhart won't play discs. So the physical game case for Halo Infinite will only say Xbox One / Series X because Lockhart won't be able to play that disc.

I think the official box art for Far Cry 6 is final and official. It will not need to change after Lockhart is announced because it still won't mention it on the physical game case. I think.

Those case arts are just mockups.. why do you think they couldn't change when MS announces Lockhart?

That game isn't out for 7 months minimum...

 

[Metroiddarks]

I'm not a software developer, so of course my technical knowledge is limited. I however always read what experts have to say and try to understand how certain things works.

Jason Ronald build XSX therefore he is a real expert in my book. No offence man, but I prefer to trust him rather than listen to some random dude like you.

Is not offense, the thing is Jason is not lying is you who doesn't understand what he is saying.

I can say something to some person but if that person doesn't know the topic is very easy the person misunderstand my argument and use it in a wrong way, example:

Argument A.-The new consoles can do raytracing even are power enough do make path tracing.
Argument B.-The new consoles can render a game to 4k and 60fps with better models than the last top tier graphics games

Conclusion.- The new consoles run games to 4k, 60 fps with better models and path tracing in the same time

The argument A and B are true but a lack of knowledge is what can make you think the conclusion is correct.

Maybe you say that is obvious the conclusion is wrong but is because you know that the path tracing is incredible expensive to be combine with a
game as the argument B said.

Basically our lack of knowledge can make us conclude a wrong thing.

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

Because Sony always goes for "elegance" and put a ton of over engineered tech in this system i am expecting it to come in at $599, maybe $549 at the most.

Digital version $499 as the only difference is it's missing the disc drive. It still has all of the other overly expensive tech in it including the sure to be overly expensive controller. Then again maybe that's the key... the console won't have a disc drive AND controllers sold separately? $349 with no controller?

Xbox disc version i have no idea... i'm expecting anywhere from $399 to $499

If there is a Lockhart it's hard to put a number down on paper until we know true specs. For the sake of a guess i'll just throw $299 out there.

No way in hell Sony will break the 500 limit... as matter of fact I'm more confident in that than in my wife not cheating on me

In all truth I don't have a wife...