Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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IntentionalPun said:
It says in the description DLSS like feature.
Click to expand...

Sorry in having trouble seeing that but I just learned that the two are not the same.

MLvsDL.png


 
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Fortuneelsewhere said:
They want everything but don't have a clear strategy for anything.. thinking that game pass will save them is very naive.. they failed to build that brand recognition that do wonders for Sony and coming next gen I really can see them being really hard banged..

Right now is like ms is in a void.. hallo hype Is near to zero after that unbelievable show case..and is like they really don't have anything else to get them in the fight again to build enthusiasm.. the few exclusives they have are years away.. let's hope they have something in the sleeve to counter Sony..
Click to expand...

Well, I still think that what we're seeing is a result of Microsoft initially having decided to exit the console hardware market. Years ago they started shedding development teams which looked to me to be a signal that they were NOT going to wait around with endlessly deep pockets throwing money into the console race. I believe they had decided or almost decided at that point, to concentrate on gaming as a service and stick to the software game, where Microsoft has often been wildly successful. This changed about two years ago when they started acquiring developers again. I believe that someone had won an internal battle at that time (maybe Phil?) and convinced company management that hardware dreams weren't dead. But...they didn't TOTALLY win the argument. So they 'split the baby.'

So what we have is Microsoft going after their "Xbox as a platform" software only strategy. That is why the focus has been on games that will run on XSX, XB1 and even mobile. This is cool for gamers, IMHO by the way as buying one copy of a game and run it on your new XSX, let the kids run the same copy on the 'hand me down' XB1 and then let you run the same game on your phone while at work (on break of course! :) ). So that is Microsofts master and main plan right now, make no mistake about it. I believe they will push Game Pass much harder and eventually start offering that via other gaming platforms once they exit the hardware arena.

On the other hand, they had plans for a very powerful hardware console. So they went ahead and finished the design and released it. This whole decision on whether to exit hardware or not, again, IMO only, is the probable reason that it has been reported that MS was behind on dev kits. I believe they had the XSX design finished and had progressed to a point but put it on hold until they decided to go ahead with the release again. So the design was done (no last minute rush jobs) but they were behind in the testing and hardware iteration game by just a little bit. So again, they've decided to go ahead and release the XSX. BUT, their focus is still and CLEARLY on the games as a service "Xbox as a platform" model and NOT on hardware. They had another problem as well, that we're seeing now. Because they had decided to exit the hardware business (maybe even the gaming market itself?) they had shed many of their development houses, even the crown jewel of Bungie. They started re-acquiring as previously mentioned, but many of those teams just got brough on board a year or two ago. So they are not in a position to have XSX specific titles ready for launch. In fact, they may not have any, or at least very few, until 2022 or so. For this reason, they are continuing to double down on the "Xbox as a platform" model.

Look, Microsoft has a great piece of hardware coming out. It's very capable. But because they waffled in the decision making, it is behind the curve as far as software. That's ok with MS. They basically at this point want to sell units to their loyal base and use the XSX to gin up excitement about xCloud and GamePass. I believe this is because their cloud technology will allow them to stream games as a service to ANY platform in the future...perhaps even Playstation.

So all my opinion and conjecture, obviously, but I think there's some solid reasons to believe this is the case. Microsoft knows what they're doing, so them not having software to show on their supposedly flagship product and other issues we've seen has to have SOME cause and I don't think it's likely to be the result of just Microsoft being stupid or making huge mistakes. I think it's evidence of a shift in strategy and a TOTAL shift that for some reason they re-thought down the line. If the XSX is wildly successful, I think they would probably re-think this again and STAY in the hardware market. But if it sells like XB1, I think they will use this as their last hardware generation and use it to transition to a software only model.

Time will tell.
 
Killer Sakoman said:
But RX5700xt is already as good as 2070 super and PS5 is 13% stronger than RX5700XT in raw power without considering change in architecture.
So he is logically right, PS5 is equivalent to RTX2080 Super. Also from Gears 5 demo, it seems that XSX could be little stronger than 2080 super as it was running with same performance and extra graphics features. So his guess is not bad at all.
Click to expand...
As the TF are not a magic mesurement for XSX neither is for PS5, my equivalence is based in what DF said and the highest RDNA available anything else
is just speculation based in TF even if I agree or not in the result.
jimbojim said:
fy3Z.gif


This is comedy GOLD :

sQwxyme.jpg


10Rkrm1.jpg


gaVWqxh.jpg


EDIT: of course, he blame others for taking his words differently
Click to expand...
Era should ban Tom after he is basically always speculating using his position as verified for be inmune .... that remain me some people
which do the same.
 
Metroiddarks said:
As the TF are not a magic mesurement for XSX neither is for PS5, my equivalence is based in what DF said and the highest RDNA available anything else
is just speculation based in TF even if I agree or not in the result.

Era should ban Tom after he is basically always speculating using his position as verified for be inmune .... that remain me some people
which do the same.
Click to expand...
Honestly with the PS5 TFlops don't matter anymore. The way its GPU and SSD is designed blows everything mostly out of the water because the pipeline gets saturated. The I/O throughput can move 9+Gbs worth of data for the GPU to render. It is receiving more data to process than any PC card can hope to have.
So even if the cards can do a high TF count in theory, it's still bottlenecked by the lack of usable data from a slow HDD or an SSD that has to go through other layers.
 
MasterCornholio said:
Just trying to piece together what the engineer said about the PS5 not having ML and this information form Toms Hardware.
Click to expand...

What engineer?

The PS5 has a GPU so it has some sort of ML.. I imagine whatever this is talking about is something more specific, at least in tandem wit some of it's specialized hardware knowing Sony.
 
IntentionalPun said:
What engineer?

The PS5 has a GPU so it has some sort of ML.. I imagine whatever this is talking about is something more specific, at least in tandem wit some of it's specialized hardware knowing Sony.
Click to expand...

That Sony engineer that said the PS5 didn't have ML.

www.neogaf.com

Sony Principal Graphics Engineer confirms PS5 has custom architecture that is based on RDNA2. (Update: Read OP)

Please see this post for clarity on this thread going forward https://www.neogaf.com/threads/sony-principal-graphics-engineer-confirms-ps5-has-custom-architecture-between-rdna1-2-deletes-tweet-about-ml.1556484/page-10#post-259359612 The same engineer who "confirmed sub-RDNA2" further...
www.neogaf.com www.neogaf.com
 
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MasterCornholio said:
That Sony engineer that said the PS5 didn't have ML.
Click to expand...
Weird.. this is Sony from Wired:

"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we're seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools."
Click to expand...

www.wired.com

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.
www.wired.com www.wired.com
 
SlimySnake said:
Is it? It was announced in the second wired article.
Click to expand...
Back in March 2019 (1 month before the first Wired article) someone found a patent regarding deep learning
www.playstationlifestyle.net

Sony Patent May Out Deep Learning Adaptive PlayStation 5 Tailored to Your Experience - PlayStation LifeStyle

The PlayStation 5 could come with a deep learning neural network that would tailor experiences directly to you based on historical data, including adapting each game based on player experience level. The information comes from a Sony patent.
www.playstationlifestyle.net www.playstationlifestyle.net
Skullzi managed to uncover one patent among thousands, originally filed in October 2018, that hints at deep learning to adapt the experience to the individual player at the console level. Historically, this kind of adaptive model has been left up to each individual developer, but harnessing the power of the console, developers could potentially tap into completely new ways of customizing players' experiences to them. The patent even suggests that data from across various games could adapt other games to each player (ie. if you are recognized as an experienced or skilled player, it could automatically remove tutorial prompts, or at could add aim assist or other helpful things for beginners and less skilled players).
Click to expand...
Could this be what they are going to talk about?...
 
SlimySnake said:
Neither Xbox or ps5 has machine learning hardware a la tensor cores. Both can use shaders on the gpu to do deep learning which is what Microsoft is doing.
Click to expand...
Right, literally said that like 1 post before that it could just be the GPU doing ML..

But do we know for sure nothing Sony has could work at all with ML? (hardware wise at least, this could just be an API running on CUs)
 
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Metroiddarks said:
As the TF are not a magic mesurement for XSX neither is for PS5, my equivalence is based in what DF said and the highest RDNA available anything else
is just speculation based in TF even if I agree or not in the result.

Era should ban Tom after he is basically always speculating using his position as verified for be inmune .... that remain me some people
which do the same.
Click to expand...
But we are comparing actual performance of RX5700xt and inferring. We are not looking at TF number.
Both XSX and PS5 are much more powerfull than RX5700xt ( both raw power and new architecture) which is equivalent to 2070 super and if we scale performance based on TF numbers, then the two consoles are at least equivalent to 2080 super.
 
MasterCornholio said:
One last question. Do you think this is machine learning?
Click to expand...

parsers.me

Deep learning & Machine learning: what's the difference? - Parsers

- Deep learning & Machine learning: what's the difference? Blog Parsers
parsers.me parsers.me

You know when Sony does things thy go a little extra :) like I've been saying Sony always has something similar or better and don't lag behind 🔥🔥🔥. I mean it's it's been the same with their apis, dx12 response, other features, etc tht has been consistent all through these gens so I don't know why ppl say "well this box has this but Sony doesn't" 😂 😂 ppl always taking loses and don't learn.
 
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JonnyMP3 said:
Honestly with the PS5 TFlops don't matter anymore. The way its GPU and SSD is designed blows everything mostly out of the water because the pipeline gets saturated. The I/O throughput can move 9+Gbs worth of data for the GPU to render. It is receiving more data to process than any PC card can hope to have.
So even if the cards can do a high TF count in theory, it's still bottlenecked by the lack of usable data from a slow HDD or an SSD that has to go through other layers.
Click to expand...
Actually thatt adds to raw power which makes PS5 reach 2080ti level.
People don't believe that HFW is real time. I don't think any current GPU can handle that easily. Other features such as GE also adds strebgth to PS5
 
MasterCornholio said:
That Sony engineer that said the PS5 didn't have ML.

www.neogaf.com

Sony Principal Graphics Engineer confirms PS5 has custom architecture that is based on RDNA2. (Update: Read OP)

Please see this post for clarity on this thread going forward https://www.neogaf.com/threads/sony-principal-graphics-engineer-confirms-ps5-has-custom-architecture-between-rdna1-2-deletes-tweet-about-ml.1556484/page-10#post-259359612 The same engineer who "confirmed sub-RDNA2" further...
www.neogaf.com www.neogaf.com
Click to expand...

Let me get this straight...

So in recent past we have seen that the PS5 has no Velocity Archtecture, its rdna 1 and has no machine learning. But in the end the Ps5 has something actually better than VA (Geometry Engine), might have custom features that Will be presente in the Future RDNA3 (to bê confirmed) and It has an upgraded machine learning?

Crazy if everything becomes true
 
There are different forms of ML with different strengths and weaknesses. DL is one form that is particularily good at image recognition, among other things IIRC.

Also:
But, but PS5 has no ML... 😭
 
SEGAvangelist said:
Xbox has announced many AAA games:

Halo Infinite
Forza Motorsport
Fable
Avowed
State of Decay 3
Senua's Saga: Hellblade II
Everwild
Age of Empires 4
Flight Simulator

And then we have a ton of unannounced stuff:

Gears 6 (likely)
InXile's AAA game
The Initiative's AAA (AAAA!) game
Forza Horizon 5 (Likely)
Compulsion's next project (they are staffing up to 100+ people, so likely AAA or close)
And who knows what Doublefine will be doing?

Now some of that is GAAS and some of that is not. Games like Avowed, Fable, Hellblade II, the singleplayer portions of Halo and Gears, likely InXile's game, The Initiative's game, Compulsion's game and Doublefine's game (thought they could release a few AA games instead) won't be GAAS but instead singleplayer and story driven (the stuff Sony fans like).

Oh... and all that stuff will be on Game Pass. Xbox is gonna be amazing this gen, but it'll take some time to fight the current hardcore gaming narrative around here and other forums.
Click to expand...

Dude, to be fair, saying that it's about overcoming a "narrative" on forums like this is trying to blame issues on people commenting on an internet forum. Like THAT is causing the issues. No. We are seeing the execution of a strategy and some strategy reversals. No internet forums caused a company like Microsoft to get rid of it's developers, then start acquiring them again, but too late to have product ready for their hardware for several years. THAT causes the "narrative," not the other way around.

Bottom line, Xbox fans should be happy with a LOT about this. Xbox as a platform will let you be much more mobile with where you play and less tethered to specific hardware. Plus, within a few more years you WILL have a good number of XSX specific titles. Generations are pretty long...it doesn't all have to be available day one.

I personally think MS will be exiting the hardware business unless the XSX sells a LOT. But even that isn't necessarily a negative for gamers. It may result in Xbox titles being available to play on even MORE platforms. That would be a win for gamers in general.
 
Moridianae said:
I think Microsoft is fine as a competitor and will be fine, simply because they have a large fan base.

They just seem to excel at finding weird hills to die on, such as the TVTVSports of the Xbox One reveal, as well as the asinine restrictions they initially planned.

Now it's Gamepass and a coexisting ecosystem across consoles, which people seem more hungry to just move on and see the real power of next gen gaming.

Now, they usually respawn and right the battle before finding another hill that looks promising to make a stand on. I expect the same thing here.
Click to expand...

But this time they are launching a next generation console without first party next generation software, leaving it up to third parties to just fill in the gap. That does not seem like a good business strategy; to basically let some other game studios determine your fate. I cannot believe Microsoft ended up in this unenviable position for any other reason than hubris.

Assuming that this trajectory continues, that it is truly representative, how does this situation get any better? It looks years too late to fix. They drew their cards, and now they have little choice but to play them. Microsoft told us back in January that their next generation software was years behind schedule, and it seems the bombshell took a while to sink in. Normally, the launch would be delayed until everything was ready. Is anyone expecting that the PS5 will be plagued with problems for the early years, allowing Microsoft to make a mid-gen comeback, like what happened between the PS3 and 360 in the late 2000s?

What is likely coming is the 'valley of death', a terrifying abyss of fleeing customers that probably will not abate until some time in 2022 or 2023. Until then, the Game Pass service will be the main attraction, and MS will have to pay through the nose to keep it stocked with something compelling to play. Meanwhile, some third parties will rally around the dominate platform that is unlikely to be rivaled technologically until something like RDNA 3 becomes widespread in the PC market. These feedback loops will probably not be easy to counter.

What will Xbox's next-gen market share look like in 2022? Less than ten million? The PS5 might have sold 30 million by then. Now, if MS's studios put out truly compelling content, I would expect them to at least have an audience, but will it be large enough to keep them in the console business?
 
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