Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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FeiRR said:
100 hours is exactly why I haven't touched it. I'll be stuck with one game for 2 months. But right now with no big hitters coming until the launch, I think it's the time.
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Well I played slow, on hard, and got the platinum trophy, 100%'d it. The main story is probably ~ 40 hours if you just want to finish it. Maybe less on easy/normal difficulties.
 
Mahavastu said:
I do not think that Sony has to buy "very fast NAND"
Most rumors say that XBox is using a 4 channel SSD, while Sony is using 12 channels. This means that Sony has 3 times the amount of channels, but "only" slightly more than twice the raw speed (2.4 vs 5.5 GBs).
This would mean that the performance per NAND chip is much lower on the Sony SSD and Sony can buy rather slow (cheap) NAND chips.


Yepp, Sony has 25% less size, which is another reason why together with the IMHO slower NAND chips I think that Sonys solution is way cheaper than XBox, despite the insane performance.
Yes, you need a better SSD controller (more channels, higher bandwith), but the costs for that should be next to nothing compared to the savings with the NAND chips.

... this is without the I/O block (decompressor and so on). Thats in the SoC and i have no idea about size / price here...
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Yeah I agree. When I was sayin fast nand, I was really just thinking about both consoles using fast flash. It would seem Sony could afford to use relatively slower nand given they have 3x more channels.
 
Regarding the price for PS5 and XSX, I think it would be useful to look at the pricing strategies we've seen this gen. The PS4 for example launched at 399 and stayed there for quite some time. If the PS5 or XSX were to launch at 599, there's no way they can maintain such a price for long. They might sell out at launch, but sales would plummet very quickly afterward. They would have to drop the price pretty quickly, since 599 simply isn't a mass market price in the long term. I think to a lesser extent this is also true for a price of 499. If they launch at 399 they would lose money on their hardware at first, but it's a price they can maintain for years.

I think they either eat the cost and launch at 399, or they start with 499 or higher, but will cut the price within the first year.
 
ToadMan said:
While I wouldn't let the hype build, I am hopeful that an additional game or 2 will be announced as launch window if not launch day - could be demons souls but we didn't see gameplay yet ... but I could certainly see GT7 or even R&C making it just because of the amount of gameplay they showed running on PS5.
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I have a similar feeling. Demon's Souls gameplay wasn't shown but it's not entarly a new game. I asume that the heaviest works are needed for visuals.

As much as I'd like to have all those titles released at launch Sony will probably try to spread them through coming months. Will see.
 
MasterCornholio said:
Well they were confusing me because they made it seem it would close the I/I gap when all it does is save space on the ram. Which the PS5 does with it's I/O because it only needs to store the next second or two of data instead of double that amount.
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Its taken you 4 months to finally realise that PS5 SSD > XSX SSD. Even after Cerny GDC speech. Forget us in here. Even after Tim Sweeney told you. You actual believed in Xbox PR fluff. Just wow. Marketing really works on easy marks eh. You really eat up marketing got damn.

4 months. Never go full console war retard! Listen to the devs ,architects & Tim Sweeneys of the gaming world. Meh at least you made it & your up to date with the rest of us now.

Xo_O said:
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This is just embarrassing. What happened to the green?? They are copying so hard they even forgot their brand colours & went with blue. SMH!! I ain't a product manager ,but I have been on product shoots & edits. But got damn this sloppy work.How do you forget your brands own colours. That's like Nike forgetting to add the swoosh.

Xbox have spent the whole gen copying PS UI. That copying is the very reason why PS are making a new UI. Xbox really trying hard to play the me too card. "We are just like them" You can see why PS are going heavy on "NEW". They do not want to be lumped in with other brands. They are really pushing for PS to stand out as a different product.

Easy money bet. Once the PS5 UI gets showcased .Maybe a glimpse at games con. Xbox will drop an article saying they will upgrade their UI again. The Metro Ui was'nt even bad!!! I thought it was cool with block shape sizing thing going on.
 
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Wraith Phantom said:
Listen to the devs ,architects & Tim Sweeneys of the gaming world.
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Be2IZBd.jpg
 
Elysion said:
Regarding the price for PS5 and XSX, I think it would be useful to look at the pricing strategies we've seen this gen. The PS4 for example launched at 399 and stayed there for quite some time. If the PS5 or XSX were to launch at 599, there's no way they can maintain such a price for long. They might sell out at launch, but sales would plummet very quickly afterward. They would have to drop the price pretty quickly, since 599 simply isn't a mass market price in the long term. I think to a lesser extent this is also true for a price of 499. If they launch at 399 they would lose money on their hardware at first, but it's a price they can maintain for years.

I think they either eat the cost and launch at 399, or they start with 499 or higher, but will cut the price within the first year.
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A lot of this I have argued over the last year or so and I agree. On top of all this we have the fact that both consoles also seem to be employing to a small or large extent automated construction which would not only massively reduce the 'battery farm' production lines and improve efficiency but also save a lot of money.

I also like to go back to earlier comments from the execs. Phil Spencer back at E3 2019 said about Scarlett price was very important, that they had a design price point in mind and that they believed they would hit it. Given their last two consoles came in at $499 it seems pretty obvious what that goal would be. From that we can logically conclude Lockhart should be $299.

The big question for me now, given the standoff on announcing price, is are Microsoft prepared to go even lower than $499 if they have to?
 
Dubsteniel said:
Now its Correct :) Thank you for you're Attention.

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This image is gibberish and doesn't represent any kind of storage pipeline.

On PS5 (if Sony's patent is correct) the application requests data on the CPU which performs a hash lookup to get the direct LBA address of the data. That gets handed off to a sub-CPU not shown in this image, the DMA controller reserves RAM for the incoming data, the sub-CPU talks to the flash controller over 4x lanes of PCIe4.0 which uses stores a patented compressed LBA-PHY table in its SRAM. The controller gets the data from the physical addresses on the NAND chips, and does a simple data integrity parity check in the same SRAM before streaming that data out over the same PCIe link to the main SoC and directly into RAM. Once there the sub-CPU directs various other bits of hardware like the decompressor (which uses a separate larger pool of SRAM) and the IO Coprocessors that perform decryption and other check-in (offloaded from the CPU) into a new area of RAM ready for the application to use, at which point the sub-CPU informs the CPU/application the data is there.

EDIT: Looking at your image again it could be that all you're trying to say is that the PS5 CPU offloads check-in, and the exact ordering doesn't matter or isn't represented?
 
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BadBreathOfTheWild said:
This image is gibberish and doesn't represent any kind of storage pipeline.

On PS5 (if Sony's patent is correct) the application requests data on the CPU which performs a hash lookup to get the direct LBA address of the data. That gets handed off to a sub-CPU not shown in this image, the DMA controller reserves RAM for the incoming data, the sub-CPU talks to the flash controller over 4x lanes of PCIe4.0 which uses stores a patented compressed LBA-PHY table in its SRAM. The controller gets the data from the physical addresses on the NAND chips, and does a simple data integrity parity check in the same SRAM before streaming that data out over the same PCIe link to the main SoC and directly into RAM. Once there the sub-CPU directs various other bits of hardware like the decompressor (which uses a separate larger pool of SRAM) and the IO Coprocessors that perform decryption and other check-in (offloaded from the CPU) into a new area of RAM ready for the application to use, at which point the sub-CPU informs the CPU/application the data is there.

EDIT: Looking at your image again it could be that all you're trying to say is that the PS5 CPU offloads check-in, and the exact ordering doesn't matter or isn't represented?
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Are you implying that decompression takes the archive from RAM, and then decompresses the expanded file back into RAM? Because that would seem very inefficient. I assumed decompressed files can be read from the onboard cached by the GPU or CPU. Sending it off-chip just to be fed back on-chip would introduce lots of latency into the process of reading compressed data off the SSD. 4 total trips over the CPU<->RAM bus.
 
MastaKiiLA said:
Are you implying that decompression takes the archive from RAM, and then decompresses the expanded file back into RAM? Because that would seem very inefficient. I assumed decompressed files can be read from the onboard cached by the GPU or CPU. Sending it off-chip just to be fed back on-chip would introduce lots of latency into the process of reading compressed data off the SSD. 4 total trips over the CPU<->RAM bus.
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It's how the Sony storage patent describes it. But you're missing the point: with PS5 the CPU isn't involved, neither are its caches. The inefficiency is handed off to dedicated hardware accelerators.

It's a straight dump from FLASH->RAM then the IO Complex decompresses and checks it in to application space RAM.

That doesn't necessarily mean the entire file is resident in RAM before the IO Complex starts work, though.
 
MastaKiiLA said:
Are you implying that decompression takes the archive from RAM, and then decompresses the expanded file back into RAM? Because that would seem very inefficient. I assumed decompressed files can be read from the onboard cached by the GPU or CPU. Sending it off-chip just to be fed back on-chip would introduce lots of latency into the process of reading compressed data off the SSD. 4 total trips over the CPU<->RAM bus.
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It's SSD->RAM DMA and then RAM->RAM copy for decomp
 
vivftp said:
So let's see what else do we still have to learn about the PS5...

- release date
- prices
- launch day and launch window lineup
- details on services (PS+, PS Now) for next gen
- more details on BC (specifics on enhanced BC for PS4 games, how many titles have been tested for launch, whether the PS5's hardware BC abilities will just let all PS4 games run by default even if they're not tested, if there's any BC for older consoles like the PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP and PSV...)
- wtf all these major third party deals Sony's been signing are for (or at least some of them if they're in the launch window)
- hardware teardown
- UI and system features
- more technical details on what the PS5 can do and what else was customized for it
-PSN 2.0? I remember people talking about it long ago, but haven't seen it discussed for a loooooooooong time. No idea if a major revamp to PSN is due or not.

What else? With that list alone and the fact that we're ~3 months from launch I have to imagine they're gonna open the floodgates within the next 2-3 weeks tops. As always I'm just hoping they give enough advance notice for the next event so I can make sure I'm off work that day.

Oh and why not I'll tack on my one in a million, never gonna happen wishful thinking point...

- When's Sony gonna reveal the existence of the PS5 Pro that's 72 CU's in a butterfly config with a 1.65 TB SSD, and 24 GB of RAM? :D Sure it'll cost $700, but I'll buy it damnit! The only reason I still have a Pro in mind is because it was hinted at by that Japanese reported a while back. Then again maybe he was unknowingly referring to the digital/disc versions and thought it meant a Pro existed?
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More expanded versions of one or two of your bullet points, but..

  • What are the new features of the CREATE button, how does it differ or expand upon from the simple SHARE button.
  • What was that SharePlay 2.0 thing about sharing/curating a playlist of playable/interactive vertical slice from a game (playlist of a game's boss run to challenge your mates for example?)
  • PS5-VR? is the breakout box contained in the headset or in the PS5 itself as was rumored? Is it wireless? What about that handle with individual finger buttons, or the patent for finger tracking gloves?
  • Sony policy on Cross Play (is it standard now or just for select mega-hit games).
  • Does Cross Buy return? Haven't really seen much about it since early PS4/PS3/VITA days
  • PS5 Pro controller? Back button attachment or swapping touchpad for touchscreen like the patent?
Sony have so much to address, even without showing another second of gameplay that it's not even funny anymore.
 
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BadBreathOfTheWild said:
This image is gibberish and doesn't represent any kind of storage pipeline.

On PS5 (if Sony's patent is correct) the application requests data on the CPU which performs a hash lookup to get the direct LBA address of the data. That gets handed off to a sub-CPU not shown in this image, the DMA controller reserves RAM for the incoming data, the sub-CPU talks to the flash controller over 4x lanes of PCIe4.0 which uses stores a patented compressed LBA-PHY table in its SRAM. The controller gets the data from the physical addresses on the NAND chips, and does a simple data integrity parity check in the same SRAM before streaming that data out over the same PCIe link to the main SoC and directly into RAM. Once there the sub-CPU directs various other bits of hardware like the decompressor (which uses a separate larger pool of SRAM) and the IO Coprocessors that perform decryption and other check-in (offloaded from the CPU) into a new area of RAM ready for the application to use, at which point the sub-CPU informs the CPU/application the data is there.

EDIT: Looking at your image again it could be that all you're trying to say is that the PS5 CPU offloads check-in, and the exact ordering doesn't matter or isn't represented?
Click to expand...

The picture is only a rough illustration. I mean, in layman's terms, I think its a good Picture to make it clear that the CPU is not involved and what are the differences to the XBOX. And the path through the system might not be quite correct, but I think it's fine for illustration. I haven't read the patent, by the way. But as you say, the important property is that they have deticated hardware for the entire path.
 
Most folks seem to think Sony has something planned. I doubt they'd let a focus on Gamescom slip by without speaking of their own accord.

I think we'll get another game showcase with several surprises next week, replete with some of the exclusivity bombs and more vague confirmations of what may be launch titles(Holiday 2020 or Launch 2020) with a look ahead to 2021.

I'd still bet the elusive price and date will be held back once again until September, probably just before or shortly after Microsoft goes for their second chance(since they pushed stuff back after Infinite delay). They'll play cat and mouse until the very end.

My guess is pre-orders for both systems will open by Labor Day weekend.
 
MastaKiiLA said:
Are you implying that decompression takes the archive from RAM, and then decompresses the expanded file back into RAM? Because that would seem very inefficient. I assumed decompressed files can be read from the onboard cached by the GPU or CPU. Sending it off-chip just to be fed back on-chip would introduce lots of latency into the process of reading compressed data off the SSD. 4 total trips over the CPU<->RAM bus.
Click to expand...


"Markitect Cerny" said:
The sub-CPU 32 divides a file read request issued by the main CPU 30 into read requests for data of a given size, storing the requests in the system memory 14. Thus, in the present embodiment, hardware other than the main CPU 30 handles the major part of data access to the flash memory 20, and the read unit is reduced to a finer one immediately after issuance of a file access request. This allows for parallel access to a plurality of NAND devices, thus providing a high transfer rate. Further, affinity with processing handled by the accelerator 42 such as read data buffering to a built-in SRAM, encryption, and tampering check is enhanced in terms of data size, thus preventing disruption of processing halfway.

The IO bus 38 has the accelerator 42 that handles encryption, data tampering check, and data decompression. Further, data is read from the system memory 14 by a DMAC (Direct Memory Access Controller) not illustrated, subjected to encryption, tampering check, and decompression, and then stored again in the system memory 14 by the DMAC. The flash controller 18 reads a data access-related instruction, issued by the host unit 12, from the system memory 14, reading data from or writing data to the flash memory 20.

The flash controller 18 stores data, read from the flash memory 20, in the built-in SRAM 24 temporarily, subjects the data to ECC (Error-Correcting Code) check, and transfers it to the system memory 14. The memory controller 34 and IO controller 40 of the host unit 12 have ordinary functions to interface with the system memory 14 and the flash controller 18, respectively.
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Bolded the bits that suggest what I said. PS5 doesn't do away with check-in, it just hardware offloads and accelerates it so the CPU and its caches aren't aware, used or needed. The CPU doesn't become a bottleneck to check-in, and check-in doesn't degrade CPU performance in turn.


Also note the two mentions of SRAM, the one referred to as "the SRAM" with a number is the one on the flash controller. The one referred to as "a built-in SRAM" without a number is what I believe to be the "large pool" of SRAM in the IO Complex and is used so that the various check-in accelerators can work in big chunks to speed things up. It's basically a large working cache.

Lastly: so much is made about 2.4GB/s vs 5.5GB/s raw sequential read speeds. That is such a tiny part of what PS5's IO is. That can be had with NAND and a basic controller alone.
Sony has invested massively in extremely low latency IO that prioritises random read performance and access speed.

Compared to PC alone it's like comparing a Ford Focus that tops out at 120MPH versus an Ariel Atom that tops out at 130MPH and saying the Atom is only slightly faster, completely ignoring how fast either accelerates or can change direction.

PS5 getting praised for its "SSD" instead of its entire storage architecture is so misleading, and it's no wonder the PCMR thought it was nothing that special.

PS5 should have called it Titslapping Architecture or some other fast sounding buzzword that merely included the fast SSD and controller as one corner of it.
 
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BadBreathOfTheWild said:
Bolded the bits that suggest what I said. PS5 doesn't do away with check-in, it just hardware offloads and accelerates it so the CPU and its caches aren't aware, used or needed. The CPU doesn't become a bottleneck to check-in, and check-in doesn't degrade CPU performance in turn.


Also note the two mentions of SRAM, the one referred to as "the SRAM" with a number is the one on the flash controller. The one referred to as "a built-in SRAM" without a number is what I believe to be the "large pool" of SRAM in the IO Complex and is used so that the various check-in accelerators can work in big chunks to speed things up. It's basically a large working cache.
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Cool, very nice when people have a clue. So you can complement each other :lollipop_smiling_face_eyes: Because the research is always so exhausting :lollipop_grinning_sweat:
 
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Dubsteniel said:
The picture is only a rough illustration. I mean, in layman's terms, I think its a good Picture to make it clear that the CPU is not involved and what are the differences to the XBOX. And the path through the system might not be quite correct, but I think it's fine for illustration. I haven't read the patent, by the way. But as you say, the important property is that they have deticated hardware for the entire path.
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INFORMATION PROCESSING DEVICE, ACCESS CONTROLLER, INFORMATION PROCESSING METHOD, AND COMPUTER PROGRAM - Sony Interactive Entertainment Inc.

<div p-id="p-0001">Disclosed herein is an information processing device including a host unit adapted to request data access by specifying a logical address of a secondary storage device, and a contro
www.freepatentsonline.com www.freepatentsonline.com

Take your time with it and have the included figures open in a separate tab/screen to refer back to and it's not that bad of a read. But patents are difficult to read even if in your native language!

If you can wrap your head around it you could make a cool diagram or animation of the flow of logic and of the data.
 
BadBreathOfTheWild said:

INFORMATION PROCESSING DEVICE, ACCESS CONTROLLER, INFORMATION PROCESSING METHOD, AND COMPUTER PROGRAM - Sony Interactive Entertainment Inc.

<div p-id="p-0001">Disclosed herein is an information processing device including a host unit adapted to request data access by specifying a logical address of a secondary storage device, and a contro
www.freepatentsonline.com www.freepatentsonline.com

Take your time with it and have the included figures open in a separate tab/screen to refer back to and it's not that bad of a read. But patents are difficult to read even if in your native language!

If you can wrap your head around it you could make a cool diagram or animation of the flow of logic and of the data.
Click to expand...

Who always finds all these patents? Worse and faster than the NSA ever allows. :lollipop_squinting:
 
ghairat said:
I really hope that the gamescom list is not 100% complete. How in the name of God could Sony miss this opportunity????? Halo Infinite got delayed and they should've made a fuss by now about their console LOL
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It's the difference between marketing team Ms and sony. Ms follows all the (mis)steps sony makes and comments through Twitter in a very pity manner. Americans tend to love it. Sony has its own timetable and has the luxury to lead instead of following.
 
Is this the first time we get the release dates and prices so late?
This Gen everything was revealed on E3 but now we probably have around 3 months left and nobody knows when and how much they will cost.
 
I wish the PS5 would incorporate those stings in that ^^ advert in its startup sequence. You get the PS logo with its sound immediately as it switches on and then it draws the symbols with PlayStation and then bumph, you're ready to go within 5 seconds.
 
I think there will be no announcement this week, this ad is probably prepared exclusively for the Champions League final (how many people watch it, something like half a billion, I think?). We should get news next week. I guess Geoff has something cooking.
 
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vivftp said:
I think my biggest question right now is what is Sony's plan for PS Now? We know they're working on big things but I have so many questions like:

- When will the servers be upgraded to PS5 hardware?
- How're the plans to move to Azure going?
- How're the plans for expansion to more countries going? I already have PS Now in Canada but still curious how the global expansion is going
- How're the plans for expansion to more devices? It's obvious that it'll be coming to phones and other devices so when? If it's on Android then their TVs will be able to access it as well.
- What're the plans for content going forward and what sort of PS5 content will be put on the service?
- Will they do a Plus/Now combo package to migrate a lot of their ~45 million Plus users over to this new package and then continue to build off of that?

So many questions still, and I hope we get some answers in the next month or so.
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  • I think it was AUS & NZ that PSNow is supposed to expand-to soon, leaked thanks to advertisement panels on PSN.
  • I was under the impression that PSNow worked on a load more devices at first, like tablets, Vita, phones, Bravia TVs, and they scaled it right back? I think it's only on PS4 and windows you can access PSNow on now. I could be getting this confused with PS4 PS4 Remote Play though.
  • Is the azure server deal with MS about PSNow streaming, crossplay with Xbox or SharePlay-type interactions? Do we know any finer details at all?
 
RaZoR No1 said:
Is this the first time we get the release dates and prices so late?
This Gen everything was revealed on E3 but now we probably have around 3 months left and nobody knows when and how much they will cost.
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The only odd thing is the price. That usually gets announced at E3. Everything else is basically the same. I mean we've all known both will be November forever and there are only 4 Fridays in November it can possibly be and 3 if you exclude BF and if you further assume Microsoft and Sony don't release on the same Friday then that narrows release down to two dates.

Me? 6th Nov for Microsoft and 20th Nov Sony (NA/Japan) and 27th Nov EU/RoW if not the same day as NA/Japan.
 
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