Support NeoGAF

[EliteClarity]

I mean look at these next gen puddles using RT to reflect the *roof* above them ... (timestamped)

Bearing in mind the Cannabis growing, its probable with Hydroponics for the place to have puddles.

 

[chilichote]

I mean look at these next gen puddles using RT to reflect the *roof* above them ... (timestamped)

All I can see is that the puddles show no reaction when someone walks through and that the scene has pretty severe tearing.

 

[Bojanglez]

So some speculation from an old tweet



Note what Matt is teasing here, can intersetion engines calculate bounce across CUs ? You can only do that if CUs are sharing more information.

Is this an L1 infnity cache tease or more to do with ps5 custom cache handling ?

There is more to be learned, and some people already know the answer and we dont, so frustrating.

allot of Post processing techniques performance is about speed, caches and sharing data across Cus. @Elog this is for you.

Also remember that Matt and NXGamer are quite pally. Matt is an expert at talking around any NDAs he may be subject to by posing knowledge he clearly has as questions (it's an artform). Michael ( NXGamer ) is far too sensible to throw any potential source under the bus too. I find it interesting though that NXGamer was giving a few nods and winks in his latest video about Infinity Cache that implies the principles rely on high clock speeds (sound familiar ).

Ahead of the AMD showing tomorrow I'd highly recommend watching NXGamer video on the subject as it breaks down the principles and importance of minimising cache misses and how this may help.



Remember also



So it will be interesting to see if either of the consoles are 'derivatives', certainly one seems to adhere to at least one aspect of the principles (faster clock rates) more than the other

 

[EliteClarity]

Also remember that Matt and NXGamer are quite pally. Matt is an expert at talking around any NDAs he may be subject to by posing knowledge he clearly has as questions (it's an artform). Michael ( NXGamer ) is far too sensible to throw any potential source under the bus too. I find it interesting though that NXGamer was giving a few nods and winks in his latest video about Infinity Cache that implies the principles rely on high clock speeds (sound familiar ).

Ahead of the AMD showing tomorrow I'd highly recommend watching NXGamer video on the subject as it breaks down the principles and importance of minimising cache misses and how this may help.



Remember also



So it will be interesting to see if either of the consoles are 'derivatives', certainly one seems to adhere to at least one aspect of the principles (faster clock rates) more than the other

Speak to me like a have a Brain injury....Whats the best, POSSIBLE situation in this. Little words.

 

[geordiemp]

Speak to me like a have a Brain injury....Whats the best, POSSIBLE situation in this. Little words.

10 TF x 1.22 is similar to 12 TF.

1.22 AVERAGE is multiplier for shared cache. Its allot more complex than that, some is 1.5 x , some work its only 1.04 %

So it depends what the game is doing. Ray tracing reflections (BVH) is a big one.

 

[EliteClarity]

Speak to me like a I have a Brain injury....Whats the best, POSSIBLE situation in this. Little words.

The Irony of that is not lost....

 

[EliteClarity]

10 TF x 1.22 is similar to 12 TF.

OK. Little words, but MORE of them please.

 

[Sethbacca]

Watch Dogs just looks pretty awful to me. Like a remaster of a much older game where old assets are just rendered at a higher resolution and certain effects are just slapped over the scene to make it look "better" without any artistic direction. The prevalence of puddles is clearly a next gen feature, but they've even got them under cover here

The video quality across the UBI titles has been spotty at best. Some of the videos I've seen for Valhalla are crisp and vibrant, and others look like they've been dragged through mud for the same video just on another channel. I do think a lot of these will look better once we're playing in non crushed streams with hdr in 4k. A lot of the problem is just how shit looks in their engines though.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Star field and 2021?

The only way that happens is it looks like Halo. As in unpolished. Perfect for Gamepass. They can update it as they go. Follow the star citizen model.

I honestly think it's 2023 for that game.

Full development started in 2015, so 2021 would mean 6 years of development. Do you think it will take 8?

 

[Mr Moose]

I mean look at these next gen puddles using RT to reflect the *roof* above them ... (timestamped)

Is it me or is the movement on the characters a bit weird?

 

[jasondefaoite]

Full development started in 2015, so 2021 would mean 6 years of development. Do you think it will take 8?

what have you seen so far for 5 years of work? A trailer with the name. You think it's coming out next year?

 

[xacto]

What can I add that others didn't? You are spreading simple disinformation about PS5s tf numbers. And actually, if they were true, I would just be quite given that, from what we have been shown, games seems to look significantly better on PS5 than on XSX.

 

[LiquidRex]

 

[Deleted member 775630]

what have you seen so far for 5 years of work? A trailer with the name. You think it's coming out next year?

Bethesda is known to wait to show anything proper until 1 year before launch. So yeah, I still believe it might come out next year.

 

[Rossco EZ]

Bethesda is known to wait to show anything proper until 1 year before launch. So yeah, I still believe it might come out next year.

 

[Dodkrake]

Bethesda is known to wait to show anything proper until 1 year before launch. So yeah, I still believe it might come out next year.

I'd argue they haven't shown anything proper in a few years. Anything? Sure. Proper? I can give 76 reasons for that not to be the case.

 

[EliteClarity]

10 TF x 1.22 is similar to 12 TF.

1.22 AVERAGE is multiplier for shared cache. Its allot more complex than that, some is 1.5 x , some work its only 1.04 %

So it depends what the game is doing. Ray tracing reflections (BVH) is a big one.

So, Effectivly, It can provide the same TF as the Series X by doing this? Or close to it.

 

[geordiemp]

OK. Little words, but MORE of them please.

How about a picture, look inside the red box, that is how often a SINGLE CU is doing work in a recent AMD paper on optimising GPUs.

A TF would be useful only if everything inside the red box is green, then TF would be a gaming metric.

And that red box is just 1 CU, the more CUs you have, for gaming generally the less green bits there are. The lazy work black bits are looking for data in caches or memory etc, lots of reasons.

The red box will never be full of green work, but it can be FULLER. Some work, like ray tracing, means CU is looking for data, so less green and more black.

So Ps5 with its fast clocks and caches was always going to creep up on XSX, and maybe beter at some stuff, and worse at other stuff, but its going to be so little it will be a hollow victory in each case.

Enjoy the games. Riky it needs a trigger...thanks.

 

[Mr Moose]

Bethesda is known to wait to show anything proper until 1 year before launch. So yeah, I still believe it might come out next year.

 

[3liteDragon]

Graphics won't improve much this gen for consoles. Instead most if not all games will run at 60+ fps instead.

Calling it now

This is not gonna age well lol.

 

[Compsiox]

This is not gonna age well lol.

I'll eat a live branco on stream if not

 

[FunkMiller]

Yeah but I mean that if you are going to charge less, and also need that money to provide all the other services within Prime, there isn't a lot of margin left anymore. Knowing this industry, and it's business model, not so sure if it's so viable for them.

I'm not so sure they'll even see it as a profit making venture. Amazon are sometimes happy to lean on loss leaders to get people shopping on Amazon. This may well end up being another string to that bow. GamePass and Xcloud exist for their own merits. They are solely a games subscription service, and therefore have to justify their own existence in terms of profit. Not sure the same will necessarily apply to Amazon Luna. Amazon's main goal is to get people to do all of their shopping on Amazon, which is where the profit lies. E-commerce is where they make their money.

 

[FunkMiller]

are you seriously comparing gamepass subscriber numbers to user base of all Amazon properties? This lacks any logical sense.

No. I'm stating the fact that Amazon can directly sell their products to more people than Microsoft can. It'll be easier for them to attract consumers to Amazon Luna that it is for Microsoft to attract people to GamePass and Xcloud.

 

[EliteClarity]

How about a picture, look inside the red box, that is how often a SINGLE CU is doing work in a recent AMD paper on optimising GPUs.

A TF would be useful only if everything inside the red box is green, then TF would be a gaming metric.

And that red box is just 1 CU, the more CUs you have, for gaming generally the less green bits there are. The lazy work black bits are looking for data in caches or memory etc, lots of reasons.

The red box will never be full of green work, but it can be FULLER. Some work, like ray tracing, means CU is looking for data, so less green and more black.

So Ps5 with its fast clocks and caches was always going to creep up on XSX, and maybe beter at some stuff, and worse at other stuff, but its going to be so little it will be a hollow victory in each case.

Enjoy the games.

So really, we are talking efficency more then raw power?

 

[RogueHALLINAN]

Is it just me but with every change to the PlayStation controller it gets closer to the the Xbox controller, not a bad thing as I struggled with the dual shock always felt awkward in my hand.

I hope every unboxing today is done on a bed lol

 

[Hawking Radiation]

How about a picture, look inside the red box, that is how often a SINGLE CU is doing work in a recent AMD paper on optimising GPUs.

A TF would be useful only if everything inside the red box is green, then TF would be a gaming metric.

And that red box is just 1 CU, the more CUs you have, for gaming generally the less green bits there are. The lazy work black bits are looking for data in caches or memory etc, lots of reasons.

The red box will never be full of green work, but it can be FULLER. Some work, like ray tracing, means CU is looking for data, so less green and more black.

So Ps5 with its fast clocks and caches was always going to creep up on XSX, and maybe beter at some stuff, and worse at other stuff, but its going to be so little it will be a hollow victory in each case.

Enjoy the games.

OK so hear me out here and correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not tech person at all.

The PS5 system makes more use of its available CU's compared to Series X which in turn means the lower CU count can accomplish the same amount of work as the Series X?

If so this lines up with what Heisenberg said a couple pages back that the console wars are going to kick off in a big way soon enough and this related to developers having PS5 dev kits on hand longer than Series X meaning the gap probably won't show the 12Tf advantage of the Series X for a long time yet. This also in conjunction with reports that devs are very happy with PS5 development tools.

That God Of War for next year is bound to blow the socks off gamers who are looking for THAT next grn title to kick things off. I've got that feeling it's going to be this gens Killzone Shadowfall moment.

 

[jasondefaoite]

Bethesda is known to wait to show anything proper until 1 year before launch. So yeah, I still believe it might come out next year.

Define proper? A trailer showing nothing more than a name? Or something more?

 

[EliteClarity]

OK so hear me out here and correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not tech person at all.

The PS5 system makes more use of its available CU's compared to Series X which in turn means the lower CU count can accomplish the same amount of work as the Series X?

If so this lines up with what Heisenberg said a couple pages back that the console wars are going to kick off in a big way soon enough and this related to developers having PS5 dev kits on hand longer than Series X meaning the gap probably won't show the 12Tf advantage of the Series X for a long time yet. This also in conjunction with reports that devs are very happy with PS5 development tools.

That God Of War for next year is bound to blow the socks off gamers who are looking for THAT next grn title to kick things off. I've got that feeling it's going to be this gens Killzone Shadowfall moment.

This was my thinking, but with less brain power my end.

 

[geordiemp]

OK so hear me out here and correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not tech person at all.

The PS5 system makes more use of its available CU's compared to Series X which in turn means the lower CU count can accomplish the same amount of work as the Series X?

If so this lines up with what Heisenberg said a couple pages back that the console wars are going to kick off in a big way soon enough and this related to developers having PS5 dev kits on hand longer than Series X meaning the gap probably won't show the 12Tf advantage of the Series X for a long time yet. This also in conjunction with reports that devs are very happy with PS5 development tools.

That God Of War for next year is bound to blow the socks off gamers who are looking for THAT next grn title to kick things off. I've got that feeling it's going to be this gens Killzone Shadowfall moment.

Sort of, Cerny tried to explain filling 48CU with useful work was harder than 36CU, the amount you can utlise is always less by adding CUs. Hence the recent archetectural changes in ampere and RDNA2.

Thats why ps5 and XSX there is no performance difference yet detected, and in which direction, as number of CU is nota metric, neither is TF. Its how much you can do in game and there is so much more to it.

Thats why we will see the big CU cards are doing other things than adding CUs. Tomorrow we will see more.

We will see a 23 TF card take on an Nvidia 30 TF card. How close will they be ? Dadada daaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Shmunter]

The power of software evolution

 

[Hawking Radiation]

So really, we are talking efficency more then raw power?

Yes appears so.

To me this looks like a case of 6 cylinder turbo engine car vs big NA V8.
Both are putting out same power but one is just using its power more efficiently and the other is sorta brute forcing it.

The more I hear about PS5 the more I believe the system is exactly that 6 cylinder turbo whereby everything is designed with the highest possible effeciency in mind to maximize every system component.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Sort of, Cerny tried to explain filling 48CU with useful work was harder than 36CU, the amount you can utlise is always less by adding CUs. Hence the recent archetectural changes in ampere and RDNA2.

Thats why we will see the big CU cards are doing other things than adding CUs. Tomorrow we will see more.

Yes thag part of Road to PS5 I got from Cerny. Understood it and there is a good reason why they chose the 36CU route if they had other options available to them.

Sony are smart motherfuckers being in the console business for so long. I'm surprised people still underestimate them and there is more we don't knoe about the inner workingz of the PS5. Time will tell.

 

[Jose92]

Our Boy NXGamer Got his PS5

 

[EliteClarity]

Yes appears so.

To me this looks like a case of 6 cylinder turbo engine car vs big NA V8.
Both are putting out same power but one is just using its power more efficiently and the other is sorta brute forcing it.

The more I hear about PS5 the more I believe the system is exactly that 6 cylinder turbo whereby everything is designed with the highest possible effeciency in mind to maximize every system component.

Cool. Explains it nicely. Thanks to you and geordiemp for the info

 

[Mr Moose]

Yes thag part of Road to PS5 I got from Cerny. Understood it and there is a good reason why they chose the 36CU route if they had other options available to them.

Sony are smart motherfuckers being in the console business for so long. I'm surprised people still underestimate them and there is more we don't knoe about the inner workingz of the PS5. Time will tell.

 

[MostScrumptionsYams]

Good Morning everyone looks like NXGamer got his hands on a ps5.



Edit: just saw that this was posted before me, Sorry for the double post.

 

[Zheph]

Our Boy NXGamer Got his PS5

Very nice! It should be the case for major media in EU today/tomorrow

 

[geordiemp]

Our Boy NXGamer Got his PS5

Well done NXGamer , looking forward to some great videoes and teardowns.

I am jelly, still got 3 weeks man.

 

[Jose92]

Seems like Digital Foundry also got one today

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

How about a picture, look inside the red box, that is how often a SINGLE CU is doing work in a recent AMD paper on optimising GPUs.

A TF would be useful only if everything inside the red box is green, then TF would be a gaming metric.

And that red box is just 1 CU, the more CUs you have, for gaming generally the less green bits there are. The lazy work black bits are looking for data in caches or memory etc, lots of reasons.

The red box will never be full of green work, but it can be FULLER. Some work, like ray tracing, means CU is looking for data, so less green and more black.

So Ps5 with its fast clocks and caches was always going to creep up on XSX, and maybe beter at some stuff, and worse at other stuff, but its going to be so little it will be a hollow victory in each case.

Enjoy the games.

I think Mark Cerny indirectly touched on this when talking Tempest Engine in the DF interview he did in April:

Essentially, the GPU is based on the principle of parallelism - the idea of running many tasks (or waves) simultaneously. The Tempest engine is much more serial-like in nature, meaning that there's no need for attached memory caches. "When using the Tempest engine, we DMA in the data, we process it, and we DMA it back out again; this is exactly what happens on the SPUs on PlayStation 3," Cerny adds. "It's a very different model from what the GPU does; the GPU has caches, which are wonderful in some ways but also can result in stalling when it is waiting for the cache line to get filled. GPUs also have stalls for other reasons, there are many stages in a GPU pipeline and each stage needs to supply the next. As a result, with the GPU if you're getting 40 per cent VALU utilisation, you're doing pretty damn well. By contrast, with the Tempest engine and its asynchronous DMA model, the target is to achieve 100 percent VALU utilisation in key pieces of code.

*IF* PS5 does have Infinity Cache then it will be interesting to see just how high the 40% utilisation of the GPU can be pushed. I've always said PS5 has been smartly designed rather than chasing traditional power.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

All right. Off to bed. Enough Gaf.

Not getting up early to watch any unboxing stuff. Will catch it in the am before logging in to work.

Have a nice night fellas.

 

[Zheph]

Yeah, I can see major website in France showing their packages too... its there lads!

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

what have you seen so far for 5 years of work? A trailer with the name. You think it's coming out next year?

Bethesda tends to avoid long marketing campaigns. They release a trailer few months before release, then they release, that's it. So no surprise if the same happens for Starfield.

 

[geordiemp]

I think Mark Cerny indirectly touched on this when talking Tempest Engine in the DF interview he did in April:



*IF* PS5 does have Infinity Cache then it will be interesting to see just how high the 40% utilisation of the GPU can be pushed. I've always said PS5 has been smartly designed rather than chasing traditional power.

I was always searching for when Cerny said the 40 % figure, I just could not find it. Thank you.

I was always trying to explain TF to people is hard work as it assumes 100 % theoretical, which in gaming it gets no where near.

How could you get a 50 % performance increase in Ray tracing BVH if the CU are at 100 % already, you dont.

Cerny and hargatt have teased us, but we have not got anything confirmed, Hopefully after AMD drop the bombs it will free up discussion.

Note the AMD paper on L1 shared already claims 22 % average.

 

[Lovelygamer]

Modder and dataminer of the Souls series shared fresh rumours about Demon's Souls remake.

Modder and dataminer of the Souls series shared fresh rumours about Demon’s Souls remake.

While Sony’s official marketing is silent, youtuber and indie developer lance McDonald, widely known in Soul circles and famous for his videos with cut-out content from games From Software, recently actively published notes on his Twitter related to the remake of Demon’s Souls. Last night, he...

nintendosmash.com

 

[Mahavastu]

Difference here is that Game Pass Ultimate (includes xCloud) is $15 for just Game Pass Ultimate, while Amazon Prime is $13 for everything of Amazon Prime, right? People are already saying that the Game Pass business model might not work, how is Amazon then ever going to make this work WHILE also paying the whole industry more?

Amazon is great at selling/upselling stuff to end users.
The "free" stuff will be a rather small collection, maybe 1-3 major titles and some fillers. It will make the customer prepare their systems, like connecting a controller to PC or FireTV stick.
Once this is done, they have a huge install base they can sell games to. Or larger subscriptions. Or channels like the Ubisoft channel. Or a potential EA Play or XBox channel. They will present themself not as a competition but rather as a platform for 3rd parties to sell on.
And yes, the $13 Dollar won't be enough for everything including games.

Amazon knows how to sell stuff in a way, that the end user is happy to buy. That is their major strength compared to Microsoft or Google.

 

[Bojanglez]

Yes appears so.

To me this looks like a case of 6 cylinder turbo engine car vs big NA V8.
Both are putting out same power but one is just using its power more efficiently and the other is sorta brute forcing it.

The more I hear about PS5 the more I believe the system is exactly that 6 cylinder turbo whereby everything is designed with the highest possible effeciency in mind to maximize every system component.

PS5 = F1 Car
XSX = nascar

 

[3liteDragon]

So what happened, I was told that Series S would just deliver the same Xbox Series X game at reduced resolutions.....Some were even hyping Series S as the 1440p cousin of Series X....

As soon as I saw the memory setup and bandwidth for the console, I already knew this wasn't gonna be a 1440p gaming machine with ray-tracing. But then I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt because of all the Infinity Cache rumours going around.

Maybe it didn't need that much RAM bandwidth if it had such a robust cache setup, I guess this just ruled out the possibility of the Series S having Infinity Cache.

 

[geordiemp]

As soon as I saw the memory setup and bandwidth for the console, I already knew this wasn't gonna be a 1440p gaming machine with ray-tracing. But then I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt because of all the Infinity Cache rumours going around.

Maybe it didn't need that much RAM bandwidth if it had such a robust cache setup, I guess this just ruled out the possibility of the Series S having Infinity Cache.

The other reason why I also dont believe XSX will have infinity cache, even if it was not shown at hotchips, is the max waves per SIMD parameter for XSX is 20 (apple beta data), means XSX needs more waves to shaders to hide data latency (like RDNA1). THe PC parts are all 16 waves per SIMD.

WE dont know the ps5 yet of course, and that XSX info is just stolen from an apple driver so...... all TBC

In addition, MS might not of wanted it, why share data between arrays if your designing a chip to run 4 games on a server just to give better ray tracing BVH performance ? XSX already has decent memory bandwidth so....


But, who knows ?

 

[sandkiller]

Unboxing Streaming (Italian):