Nintendos N64 western 3rd Party support was really something
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ninjablade
Banned
N64 was never known as a kiddie machine, that was the gamecube.
Maybe I remember it wrong, but I feel like it mostly was in Germany. Maybe that was only later in it's life though, when the Pikachu special edition came out and Pokemon was the best thing ever and attracted a whole new younger demographic towards Nintendo consoles. I definitely took over when the GCN came out though, I'd agree with that.
Maybe it also has to do with Germanys USK at that time, that was quite strict and prevented many games to come out. When those games reached Germany, they were often badly censored - C&C had suddenly only robots as units and green blood was also often seen.
I agree completely, that's the point I tried to make. I'd really like to know, why Japan took this step and more or less shut NoA down in that regard, considering their success.
That is true of course, but this thread is specifially for the western third-party support which was quite good.
Japanese studios were quite happy to break free from Nintendo and it's totalitarian reign and Square and Enix not supporting the system was the final nail in it's coffin for japanese third-party support.
A little bit of Hudson, a little bit of Capcom, but otherwise it was a wasteland.
Konami and Hudson were the main japanese publishers who baked N64 (Enix and Capcom to a much lesser extent).
Reason being that N64 sales in Japan weren't brilliant after the launch while in US, N64 was number 1 system until mid 1997, with strong sales after (just not as strong as PS1).
To note also that main sales difference between SNES and N64 was located in the japanese market, on the other hand in America and Europe N64 sold just a couple million units less than SNES.
SNES:
Japan: 17.17 million
America: 23.35 million
Other: 8.58 million
N64:
Japan: 5.54 million
America: 20.63 million
Other: 6.75 million
N64 was actually all Western support, whereas Saturn and Playstation lapped up Nintendo's home soil.
Project Reality was spearheaded by Nintendo collaborating with Silicon Graphics, Paradigm Simulations, Argonaut, Rare, DMA Design, and many more all western developers. N64 Was the most Western console this side of Xbox.
Project Reality was spearheaded by Nintendo collaborating with Silicon Graphics, Paradigm Simulations, Argonaut, Rare, DMA Design, and many more all western developers. N64 Was the most Western console this side of Xbox.
Was Final Fantasy not coming out on the N64 a decision made before the system launched in Japan? I remember the tech demo, but that was well before launch.
Final Fantasy VII was annoucned for PS1 in January 1996, before N64 launch.
As far I know initially FFVII was planned for SNES but later moved to PS1.
It was never really meant for N64 (thetech demo was for SGI, not specifically for N64) due to the lack of CD.
Thanks. Back then - that was basically a death sentence for Japan IIRC. So around 5m on their own back in that market isn't even that bad.
Still - I'd love to know what happened between NoA and NoJ. Was it a SEGA like power struggle? Was NoAs influence growing too much and Iwata felt a need to put an end to that before a potential fallout?
If you look at it, they should have embraced NoA and let them do their stuff while fixing their relationships in Japan. Nintendo would have been much stronger for it I think - they also could have used more western input in their hardware and OS designs.
dreamlongdead
Member
N64 was a beast in the United States. I didn't even realize that.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
The N64 was an amazing console in the west. Overall it had a good mix of games and some very strong genres, particularly FPS and 3D adventure. The ports were usually solid too. Vigilante 8, Gauntlet Legends, NFL Blitz, etc.
I loved the N64.
I loved the N64.
What kind of cherrypicking BS is that?
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Played it last summer. It holds up well.
Yep, I remember this.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
It was basically an insect-themed Starfox and I thought it was pretty damn good, personally.
We could use that sort of imaginative thinking these days.
Leafhopper
Banned
People say third party support was bad for Nintendo after the SNES, which I disagree greatly considering what we got on 64 and the gamecube. The Wii was the first one I was like "Okay this is kinda lame."
Will never forget the first time I read in a magazine when RE4 was revealed as a GC exclusive... Wish I had Internet access at that time to see the meltdowns and rage of all the RE fans that were more than set with their PS2s for a new RE and boom! A Nintendo exclusive became instead
(For a few months ha.)
Never had a problem with any of the third party support Nintendo systems got until the Wii. N64 and Gamceube were both my primary consoles during those generations and I bought plenty of third party games. They just got overshadowed by the ridiculous support Sony was getting is all. Saying that either system didn't have good third party support is a joke. Look at the Wii U, that's what a lack of third party support looks like.
If that's what you're into... personally, I much preferred the (still not great) attempts to win back Japanese third parties in the Cube and Wii era. Tales of Symphonia, Baten Kaitos, FF:Crystal Chronicles are much more important to me than all those western 3D platformer collectathons or racing games that the N64 was full of.
MrCunningham
Member
Rare almost took center stage as the N64's primary developer.. Goldeneye was like the second or third best selling game on that console and they pumped out almost as many first party games that Nintendo did. It was a console that was carried more by western software than it was Japanese software.
Though I do also think that the Sega Mega Drive/ Genesis was carried by a lot of western third party software as well. Outside of Sega of Japan's first party software, There was a lot of European and American third party support for the machine thanks to the Amiga scene. Sega of America also developed/ produced a lot of first party games for the machine too.
Capcom only published three games for the N64. Resident Evil 2 which was ported by Angel Studios (now Rockstar San Diego) , then there was also Magical Tetris Challenge and Mega Man 64. They were also developing Resident Evil Zero for the machine, which was moved to the GameCube. But overall, their support was beyond token. There must have been a lot of ass kissing from Nintendo to get the Capcom Five deal for the GameCube.
Konami published something like 30 games games for the N64, with quite a few sports games and some that were Japanese exclusives. They actually did give the N64 a lot of support.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Actually it was.
Nintendo made the 64DD to keep both Square and Enix on their hands. They knew both were developing Final Fantasy VII and Dragon Quest VII, so a machine with more space was needed to keep the two J-RPGs giants into their ground. Somehow, Nintendo was already aware the N64 wasn't good enough for J-RPGs, so an add-on was necessary.
Square had a shaky relationship with Nintendo by that time. Nintendo wasn't providing Square carts with the space needed for their games. Games like Romancing Saga and Secret of Mana had cuts because of that. While Nintendo gave Enix the proper storage carts they needed. This angered Square. To makes things even worse, Nintendo backed down the deal to let Square publish Super Mario RPG and decided to do themselves.
Square decided to cut loose their relationship with Nintendo and jumped to Sony. It wasn't because Nintendo made carts. Sure, it was a limitating factor indeed, carts are nowhere near CDs, but the real reason were the sparks both company had. The "official story" is mostly a cover up, to not expose the spark with Nintendo and, of course, sincewhile they were tagged with Sony, they made a story to antagonize Nintendo and it's decision to go carts. If CD-Roms were the real reason to jump off the train, then Square would have tagged with Sega way before, as they were supporting this media even prior to Sony joining the game.
Afterwards, this sparked a chain reaction in the japanese development scenario and started a mass exodus. The reason why Nintendo decided to go carts was mostly to keep their control over third-parties and the carts manufacturing demand. Piracy and no loading times were just appealing excuses. Once Square jumped off, every major japanese developer did the same, as it represented a "fuck you" to Nintendo's control over third-parties.
That's why Nintendo didn't gave two fucks to the 64DD. The major liaison, Square and Enix, were lost, so there was no reason left to support it.
Nintendo later tried to get a FFVII port made by Angel Studios. Square rejected it. So they decided to do RE2 instead.
Control over media manufacturing is still a serious issue regarding Nintendo. They still keep this practice till today, that's why they still support carts for portables or try different media formats than everyone else in order to have control. With Wii U's failure and consequently lost of every single third-party, this will probably be ended by Kimishima.
Nope.
FFVII as never really considered for N64 during development.
Source?
It shouldn't be mutually exclusive though. NoA was set up to continue what they where doing. NoJ could have easily courted Square-Enix and Co. exactly the way they did to get them back while still staying with their western approach through NoA and Rare.
Pretty interesting theory. I often wondered why Nintendo abandoned the DD so quickly..
I actually think I heard of that before. Maybe it's a rumor, but I heard that the RE2 port guys approached Square beforehand to port FFVII.
I think something perhaps being forgotten here is the role that the N64 played at the time. Goldeneye was a big breakthrough in getting console owners to play an FPS, and understandably developers viewed it as a safe home for the FPS. The hardware itself did better in full 3D, and developers looking to make a 3D game often turned to the N64. Games that didn't make good use of the hardware, though, were pretty much never going near the console, Capcom's two high-profile ports being the only real exception I can think of.
I personally love the third-party games that did come to the console (the Goemon games, Harvest Moon 64, the great Beetle Adventure Racing, to name some highlights) but the console got nowhere near the attention the PSX got.
I personally love the third-party games that did come to the console (the Goemon games, Harvest Moon 64, the great Beetle Adventure Racing, to name some highlights) but the console got nowhere near the attention the PSX got.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
FF SGI Demo was made with the N64 hardware in mind. SGI/Silicon Graphics was Nintendo's major supporter and partner in the hardware development division. The partnership was started circa 1993. By that time, Square was still into Nintendo's circle. N64 had SGI's technology all around and the tech used into FF SGI Demo was the same from N64's hardware. FF SGI Demo tech was later used into FF7.
64DD was made with Square and Enix in mind, in order to handle the J-RPG genre, as the normal hardware didn't had enough space for, thus they needed something to keep them around.
Cheerilee
Midway published and/or developed so many arcade racing games, simply loved they all for what they were:
California Speed
San Francisco Rush
Rush 2: Extreme Racing USA
San Francisco Rush 2049
Off Road Challenge
Stunt Racer 64
Top Gear Rally
World Driver Championship
Micro Machines 64 Turbo
Hydro Thunder
Wipeout 64
Cruis'n USA
Cruis'n World
Cruis'n Exotica
Rush series holds a special place in my heart, specially Rush 2, that was exclusive to the Nintendo 64. Good times...
California Speed
San Francisco Rush
Rush 2: Extreme Racing USA
San Francisco Rush 2049
Off Road Challenge
Stunt Racer 64
Top Gear Rally
World Driver Championship
Micro Machines 64 Turbo
Hydro Thunder
Wipeout 64
Cruis'n USA
Cruis'n World
Cruis'n Exotica
Rush series holds a special place in my heart, specially Rush 2, that was exclusive to the Nintendo 64. Good times...
Final Fantasy SGI Demo was presented at Siggraph '95 and , as for the other demos which are presented at that show, its purpose was to research new graphics techniques.
FFVII began on SNES then was halted so the team could help with Chrono Trigger development.
When the project resorted it was vaguely intended for N64 DD but production actually never really started for it (they never even received a N64 prototype!).
The switch into production happened directly onto PS1 when they decided that for FFVII CD technology was required.
Final Fantasy SGI demo presented for Siggraph '95 being developed using SGI workstation is a clue that it was intended for N64 as much as Square demo (Chocobo de Battle) for Siggraph '97, again developed using SGI workstation, was intended for N64.
Which wasn't the case at all.
To recap:
Final Fantasy SGI demo was jus a tech demo never meant to be a game on N64 or PS1.
There is no prototype of FFVII on N64 because production never started for it, instead began directly on PS1 due to Square choosing CD technology to store data.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302056
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98617
I meant a credible source (no offense to Cheerilee).
To Far Away Times
Member
Even back then, you bought Nintendo systems for the first party games.
Western support was actually pretty good back then, but gaming was dominated by Eastern games at the time.
Western support was actually pretty good back then, but gaming was dominated by Eastern games at the time.
Wow, what a list!
TreasureHunterG
Banned
If you look at this, it was something N64 hardware could easily handle. The graphics and character models are very N64-like.
We aren't discussing how far FFVII development went but if was initially a N64 project and you pretty much confirms it in the bold. IGN confirms FFVII to be an originally 64DD project.
IGN said:
Neither there is a Dragon Quest VII prototype running on the N64 hardware and it's well know it was originally a 64DD title. No prototype isn't an indication that wasn't originally planned.
It won't surprise me at all if Nintendo wasn't keen to provide Square with enough storage media to support their games again for N64, like they did in the SNES, so they got anger and left.
Chocobo de Battle, unlike Final Fantasy SGI, was running at a 1.25 million dollar Onyx2 SGI with 2 gigs of RAM. No home console hardware could run that at the time, not even arcades could. On the other hand, FF SGI was very suitable for home console tech. Very different techs and, especially, costs between each demos.
MrCunningham
Member
This demo was playable in real time on an Onyx 1, which was generally used as a development system for the N64. Nintendo did cripple the final N64 hardware to a certain degree with a weaker texture cache and frame buffer, so it may not have been able to get image quality like that. But the N64 was known to be able to render more polygons at a higher framerate than a single Onyx 1 workstation. The Goldeneye team at Rare developed the game entirely on Onyx workstations and they claimed that the game in development ran at worse framerates than what it did on actual N64 hardware. Though they did have to make sacrifices to the final game textures in order to get them to work on an N64 cartridge and texture cache limitations.
Yeah, that demo could have run on real N64 hardware, and Rare probably did purchase some indigo workstations to test the waters with. Though I am sure that some of those machines ended up being used for FFVII development anyway.
Waylon Drums
Member
Once Sony made PlayStation a thing, everything Nintendo became "kiddie" unfortunately.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Body Harvest and Space Station Silicon Valley were both model for GTA III sandbox engine, many features from both games were properly used to build it. DMA Design at the time was a Nintendo development partner. They worked together with Uniracers for SNES and later Nintendo gave the ideas for Body Harvest gameplay. Nintendo, for strange reasons, backed down the deal and Midway published instead.
They were planning to release a GTA 64, based on the first game of the series with enhanced graphics and even an Unreal port for the 64DD.
Nintendo seemly snubbed DMA Design. This proved to be a big, big mistake, as they ended up creating one of the most succesful and influent titles ever made and were pivotal for PS2's success.
Sony recruited many ex-Sega employees to help them into their marketing strategy. They were familiar already with Tom Kalinske's "Sega does what Nintendon't" strategy, which proved successful at grabbing Nintendo's market share and managed to take a hit into it's credibility. Sony's strategy to tag Nintendo as "kiddie" was nothing more than a resuming of Sega of America's.
protomouse
Member
The "kiddie" stigma existed well before Sony was a thing. It was part of Sega's marketing.
Waylon Drums
Member
Absolutely. Sega started it, Sony finished it.
daTRUballin
Member
That's not true though. The N64 was definitely considered a "kiddie" system back then.
That was an example.
A tech demo won't translate directly into a commercial product because the purpose of a tech demo is to test new technology.
The connection between the Final Fantasy VI: The Interactive CG Game and the fabled "Final Fantasy 64" was fabricated by the media.
ninjablade
Banned
Not in the us, golden eye was the equivalent of halo, and mario was the most powerful gaming franchise at the time. N64 was very popular in North America, 20 million units sold was great back then.
FleckSplat
Member
stigmata....lol
Which isn't I don't trust you, but your post read like a rumor/fanfiction.None taken.
Now if a former Angel Studios employee confirmed it and told you so then would changed that.
daTRUballin
Member
Well, sure, the N64 did have many games that appealed to the Western market, but that didn't really stop the N64 from being called a kiddie machine (even in the US). Compared to the PS1, the N64 was looked at as a console with a tiny library with most of the games on it being family friendly. Mario was obviously a family friendly franchise as well, so even though it was very big at the time, it wasn't enough to stop people from calling the N64 "kiddie". Mario was considered a "kiddie" franchise by the "cool kids" at the time.
San Francisco Rush was such a great game. I played the game a ton back in the day. Probably my most played racing game from the PS1/N64 surpassing Mario Kart 64 even.
Not sure how it's aged though.
But yeah, Nintendo had great 3rd party support during the N64 days. I remember going to a friends house and being blown away by Turok when I first saw it hooked up on a big screen TV back in the day.
They had decent support during the GameCube days but as soon as Sega dropped out and Microsoft entered the arena 3rd parties eventually went for towards Sony and MS e.g. GTA: VC and MGS2 which was a huge loss for Nintendo, especially in the West.
It had at least a couple hundred 3rd party games that had honest-to-goodness effort put into their development. Either you know very little about the Wii's library or you don't know what "shovelware" means. I suspect it's the former.