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[Funyarinpa]

Before I begin:
1) Excluded the US because I feel like the thread would be a Fuck Trump™ thread then. Which is fine, fuck Trump, but that's just not I want from this thread. If you're from the US, you're welcome in thread anyways- welcome to my world (see below).

2) By "1984-esque" I don't mean "AAAAAA SURVEILLANCE" or "ALTERNATIVE FACTS". I'm talking more about the Two Minutes' Hate, Hate Week, Malabar Front sort of stuff. So basically, moments of collective ego masturbation over shared religion/nationality/hatred.

---

So, I was going home from school today. I'm Turkish and 17 for the record, a high schooler. Context for the ignorant: Erdogan, who's been in power since 2002, is a radicalizing, Islamist, sexist, fascist piece of shit. There've been calls from his voter base recently to legalize the death penalty to execute the culprits behind the July 15th coup attempt.

The bus driver supports the AKP (Erdocuck's homies). So, he happened to have the radio tuned to a speech Erdocuck was making during the opening of some art gallery (I think) in the city of Kahramanmaraş.

Turkey is supposedly a secular government. Keep that in mind as you read these, said by the democratically elected Prime Minister of Turkey(paraphrased by me, the original isn't this wordy but I want to get the full meaning across):

Praise be to Allah for letting me be the Prime Minister of this valiant nation! Praise be to Allah! May we too be deserving of the high rank of Heaven bestowed upon the martyrs of July 15th!

Faithful comrades lead us to freedom, while nonbeliever comrades lead us astray.

Inshallah, we will be passing the April 16th referandum (which will remove power from the National Parliament and turn the country into a presidential republic if it passes).
(Unified, loud chant of "DEATH PENALTY!" from the crowd.)

That which saved the Turkish nation from its darkest hour (referencing the Turkish War of Independence) was a divine will coming from faith! Our victory and freedom is thanks to our belief in Allah!

It doesn't matter to me what Winstons or Georges say, I only listen to Mehmets and Ahmets and Ayşes and Fatmas!...(all Turkish names)... and THE WORD OF ALLAH!
("ALLAHU AKBAR" chants from the crowd at this point.)

(End speech.)

This is fucking terrifying to me. I'm a liberal, would like to see myself as respectful toward minorities and women, and I also happen to be an atheist. It's terrifying to me beyond words, seeing these people call themselves Turkish while chanting for execution in the name of Allah.

Doesn't help that I reread 1984 with the rest of my English class for half a semester.

This is just too similar to WAR IS PEACE. I've lived my whole conscious life in a perpetual Hate Week.

Thread for venting on authoritarian ultranationalism, I guess. Or comfort me, that works too.

Heh.

 

[Boylamite]

Cuck? Really?

 

[Funyarinpa]

Cuck? Really?

1) No respect for the likes of him.

2) I kind of like the way it sounds compared to his actual name.

3) Thought it might avoid a filter or something if people googled his name or something lol.

4) Insulting him makes the whole thing feel somewhat less depressing

 

[GAF A60-Rim A]

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

 

[diaspora]

religious conservatism ruins everything

As for the main topic of the thread, walk down any street in london with CCTV cameras probing your anus.

 

[Boylamite]

1) No respect for the likes of him.

2) I kind of like the way it sounds compared to his actual name.

3) Thought it might avoid a filter or something if people googled his name or something lol.

4) Insulting him makes the whole thing feel somewhat less depressing

You must realize that this is the go to insult from alt right trump supporters right? It isn't a good look.

Sorry, I have nothing to add to this topic so I'll bow out.

 

[womfalcs3]

religious conservatism ruins everything

As for the main topic of the thread, walk down any street in london with CCTV cameras probing your anus.

Without religion, tribes and people resorted to believing in stuff anyway. The Pharaohs, Greeks, Romans, Aztecs, etc.. and their gods. That will always be exhibited by people. It's nature to examine our existence.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

When we were at war with a neighboring country in the 90s on top of already been in a civil war/internal conflict/terrorism

 

[Lime]

Mass surveillance as uncovered by Snowden

Drone attacks based on big data algorithms

Fascist news media becoming mainstream and acceptable (Fox News, Daily Mail, Breitbart, etc.)

Young white men being radicalized and enlist as this era's brown shirts / Sturmabteilung.

 

[BlitzKeeg]

You must realize that this is the go to insult from alt right trump supporters right? It isn't a good look.

Sorry, I have nothing to add to this topic so I'll bow out.

I understand where you're coming from, but the OP isn't from the US so I could see him not having the same immediate negative reaction and association that we have when we hear it.
I think it's a really dumb word, but I also don't want neo nazis to claim it for themselves. They're appropriating and ruining enough stuff as it is.

Spoiler

#SavePepe

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

Holy shit.

A lot of rhetoric from the post 9/11 era has an Orwellian vibe. Most notably the "Patriot Act" which straight up uses "patriotism" as a guise for authoritarian surveillance. The sick part is that most people bought into it and think it makes us more safe.

"Why are you worried if you have nothing to hide?"

Edit: I apologize. Like a typical American I'm taking a thread that is specifically not about me and making it about me.

 

[zeitgeist]

With the webcams on every laptop and even with Kinnect I always thought to myself that we are voluntarily letting the 1984 cameras into our homes.

 

[ZiZ]

I feel like you are overreacting.

 

[The Hermit]

Mass surveillance as uncovered by Snowden

Drone attacks based on big data alghorithms

Fascist news media becoming mainstream and acceptable (Fox News, Daily Mail, Breitbart, etc.)

Young white men being radicalized and enlist as this era's brown shirts / Sturmabteilung.

The whole world is going 1984

Revisionism of history is a thing here in Brazil

 

[balohna]

"Protecting Canadian values" as doublespeak for being anti-Muslim. Happened in this past election with the incumbent PM, but luckily the other parties and the media called him out on it.

Luckily, I don't feel like we have a lot of propaganda or outright deception. The worst we get is dog whistle politics (see above) and parties backpedaling on things they said to get elected (current Liberal government). Which are still shitty things, but not quite Orwellian.

 

[sazzy]

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

That's actually a very smart quote.

edit- there's no doublespeak in there, its pretty explicit what he's trying to say.

1. there are things you know
2. there are things you don't know, but you are aware that you don't know them
3. there are things you don't know, and you are not aware that you don't know them

simple examples of:
1. time of day, day of the week, etc
2. (for me) how to write a computer program
3. this one is pure ignorance. e.g. a bus that's about to run you over, that you don't see coming.

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

I honestly don't know, Norway is a pretty chill place. Surveillance stuff sucks but that's about it.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

"Protecting Canadian values" as doublespeak for being anti-Muslim. Happened in this past election with the incumbent PM, but luckily the other parties and the media called him out on it.

Luckily, I don't feel like we have a lot of propaganda or outright deception. The worst we get is dog whistle politics (see above) and parties backpedaling on things they said to get elected (current Liberal government). Which are still shitty things, but not quite Orwellian.

Yeah, that and Harper trying to spin banning the niqab as being good for feminism was mind-boggling. Especially considering their track record on other women's issues, it just came off so transparent.

 

[Lime]

I honestly don't know, Norway is a pretty chill place. Surveillance stuff sucks but that's about it.

Fremskridtspartiet & anti-immigration resentments

Police still carrying automatic weapons 5 years after Utøya

A national economy dependent on oil & gas towards a future without it

 

[Hermii]

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

That quote actually makes perfect sense to me. Lets say Thailand has developed nuclear weapons, while the whole world "knows" Thailand does not have a nuclear weapon program. The world doesnt know that it doesnt know if Thailand has nukes.

 

[BadenBadenLily]

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!

 

[Iokis]

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

This quote is not an example of Orwellian doublespeak though?

 

[LewieP]

When then Home Secretary, now Prime Minister Teresa May had these randomly driving around London.

 

[TatteredHat]

Nothing yet, ask me again after the Dutch elections next month.

edit: Actually no, I do have some things to add.

Wilders not running his party's budget through the CPB (Central Bureau of Planning) which is responsible for actually checking if a party's plans are even possible, refusing to join in on debates with other parties, and just in general not going into detail on any of his core tenets. He relies almost entirely on empty rhetoric or one-liners to make his point, like the good little populist he is.

He's trying to ape Trump, but it's not really winning him any votes aside from the people who were already part of his constituency anyway.

 

[Aureon]

Berlusconi has been claiming that all of Italy's judiciary is just communists angry against him because he's rich.
It has worked for a long time.

Spoiler

I'm afraid Trump will just have to say 'liberals', as if that's a slur for him anyway

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

That makes sense, though?
Rumsfield engages in a bit of incongruity in the documentary with that name, but that's not really doublethink level - although that explanation does intentionally leave doublethink out, the Known Unknowns, which is what you know but don't want to acknowledge.

 

[EternalDarko]

When then Home Secretary, now Prime Minister Teresa May had these randomly driving around London.

What the fuck. How come there wasn't more about this or did I just miss the whole scenario?

 

[Stereogatari]

In Istanbul the government changed the name of the Fatih Sultan Mehmet bridge to the 15th July Martyrs Bridge after the failed coup. Literally like a week or two after the road signs had been changed. And there were political posters all over the city congratulating the citizens on saving the country.

I guess I should have mentioned the failed coup itself first. Especially Erdogan on FaceTime on live tv addressing the nation to stop the coup.

Gülen, the supposed instigator of the coup, is Emmanuel Goldstein enemy figure out to bring down the country. The War with PKK being stopped and then being resumed at the government's will or the fact that the government and Gülen used to be allies or that they used to be allies with Syria ("We have always been at war with Eastasia").

Turkey is 1984 come to life.

To be honest it's not just Erdogan. Turkey has been a very 1984-like Statist country throughout its history, even under Secular governments.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

Turkey really is going down the shitter. Such a shame. Been seeing huge increase in Turks trying to immigrate to Australia through my work

 

[His Majesty]

Last time was a few years ago when police officers were using a water cannon rather indiscriminately after a football game got out of hand. Even kids got hit ffs.

 

[lastplayed]

When I lived in England about 10 years ago I was taking my usual walk to work through the dead quiet town centre around 7:30am when this voice suddenly appeared from the fog "Welcome to Hinckley town centre", it was a CCTV camera that noticed me and played a recorded message. It's probably common place now, but felt creepy at the time.

 

[Sqrt_minus_one]

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

This was actually a fairly well known line of reasoning and got blown way out of proportion.

 

[Aureon]

When then Home Secretary, now Prime Minister Teresa May had these randomly driving around London.

Ah, yes.

That's about as 1984 as it gets.
Yes, it's real. No, i'm not kidding. No, i don't know who approved this or why s/he thought it was a good idea.

 

[GAF A60-Rim A]

That quote actually makes perfect sense to me. Lets say Thailand has developed nuclear weapons, while the whole world "knows" Thailand does not have a nuclear weapon program. The world doesnt know that it doesnt know if Thailand has nukes.

This quote is not an example of Orwellian doublespeak though?

That makes sense, though?
Rumsfield engages in a bit of incongruity in the documentary with that name, but that's not really doublethink level - although that explanation does intentionally leave doublethink out, the Known Unknowns, which is what you know but don't want to acknowledge.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. Of course it makes sense. But he's basically justifying the War in Iraq with the notion of "unknown unknowns". It's completely doublespeak: deliberately euphemistic, ambiguous, or obscure language.

It's justifying "we can't find any evidence because we don't know where to look" is disingenuously summarised as: "there are unknown unknowns!" which makes the listener think: "wow, that makes perfect sense" -- as evidenced by your own reactions to the logic.

It's turning the "we can't" into "there are". One is a negative, the other a positive.

I'm not saying that that speech justified the War, but I'm saying, when someone is going around saying euphemistic shit like that, to impressionable inferiors (Bush, etc.), it's a dangerous manifestation of Orwellianism.

 

[Dougald]

What the fuck. How come there wasn't more about this or did I just miss the whole scenario?

This was all over the news when it happened

Sadly seems a bit tame these days

 

[Cosmic Schwung]

That's about as 1984 as it gets.
Yes, it's real. No, i'm not kidding. No, i don't know who approved this or why s/he thought it was a good idea.

You beat me to it. If you just glace at it you'd assume it was satire.

 

[GeoGonzo]

OP being from Turkey makes this a veeeery tough act to follow.

 

[Lach]

Ah, yes.

That's about as 1984 as it gets.
Yes, it's real. No, i'm not kidding. No, i don't know who approved this or why s/he thought it was a good idea.

Sorry I have to ask anyway. This is really real? That's as sinister as it gets!

 

[Famassu]

Everything I've heard of UK's handling of these kinds of things sounds like they are on the verge of going full blown 1984. I mean, a lot of the framework is already there, but it's not necessarily quite as sinister/misused (yet) as it has the potential to be.

 

[mo60]

Not sure if this counts but during some anti carbon tax rally last year that some far right media source held were I live which is Edmonton Alberta while a leadership candidate for the federal conservatives in Canada was speaking people started chanting lock her up. They were directing this chant at the current premier of the province who is Rachel notley.I felt disgusted when I heard about this,but I am not surprised since politics were I live has taken dark turn since May 2015.I will find more examples similar to the above one later.Did not mean to make my example trump related.

 

[gngf123]

Everything I've heard of UK's handling of these kinds of things sounds like they are on the verge of going full blown 1984. I mean, a lot of the framework is already there, but it's not necessarily quite as sinister/misused (yet) as it has the potential to be.

That is pretty much where I feel we are, yeah. With Theresa May in charge, it's only going to get worse too.

It's a shame that labour and the majority of the public are also pro-surveillance.

 

[LewieP]

Everything I've heard of UK's handling of these kinds of things sounds like they are on the verge of going full blown 1984. I mean, a lot of the framework is already there, but it's not necessarily quite as sinister/misused (yet) as it has the potential to be.

It's only incompetence holding them back.

 

[Hermii]

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. Of course it makes sense. But he's basically justifying the War in Iraq with the notion of "unknown unknowns". It's completely doublespeak: deliberately euphemistic, ambiguous, or obscure language.

It's justifying "we can't find any evidence because we don't know where to look" is disingenuously summarised as: "there are unknown unknowns!" which makes the listener think: "wow, that makes perfect sense" -- as evidenced by your own reactions to the logic.

It's turning the "we can't" into "there are". One is a negative, the other a positive.

I'm not saying that that speech justified the War, but I'm saying, when someone is going around saying euphemistic shit like that, to impressionable inferiors (Bush, etc.), it's a dangerous manifestation of Orwellianism.

I didn't know he said it in the context of wmds.

 

[commedieu]

Ah, yes.

That's about as 1984 as it gets.
Yes, it's real. No, i'm not kidding. No, i don't know who approved this or why s/he thought it was a good idea.

There's no wiggle room with that. Jesus christ.

 

[x24hrs2livex]

Well, although U.S., one should NEVER forget the Orwellian doublespeak of the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rove era:

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."

— Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense, 2002​

Holy shit Rumsfeld said that? I thought that was from The Boondocks.

 

[Rembrandt]

Ah, yes.

That's about as 1984 as it gets.
Yes, it's real. No, i'm not kidding. No, i don't know who approved this or why s/he thought it was a good idea.

That's so fucking creepy.

Holy shit Rumsfeld said that? I thought that was from The Boondocks.

Lol.

 

[HighResTomato]

 

[DangerMouse]

Holy shit Rumsfeld said that? I thought that was from The Boondocks.

LOL yeah.

 

[Envelope]

Ah, yes.

That's about as 1984 as it gets.
Yes, it's real. No, i'm not kidding. No, i don't know who approved this or why s/he thought it was a good idea.

Not gonna lie I want one of those posters for my wall

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Quebec's current prime minister constantly tells what are objectively lies with a straight face. For example, he cuts drastically in our public services and says to journalists "there has been no cuts". He's not as grotesque as Trump, but he denies reality just like him.

 

[Dingens]

Well... there is a reason why 1984 and stuff like V like Vendetta take place in the UK


It was probably the first time Wikileaks leaked something big when I started paying attention. When Snowden happened I started to care.

I know I will get a lot of flack for this, but the first time I really noticed some concerning borderline propaganda-esque stuff was during the beginning of the whole Ukraine conflict. I was following the events right from the beginning (hint: it didn't start with snipers or the Crimea thing). Initially Reporting seemed fair and well-balanced but than the Crimea thing happened and like from one day to the next pretty much every German news paper and TV station went into war propaganda mode. The tone of reporting changed, the choice of words changed, the news stories changed and "errors" (that made the new government or Ukraine as a whole appear in a more favourable light) were made all the time. This was easily noticeable, since if you speak German, you can easily compare German news to Austrian or Swiss news - same language, but different countries without NATO involvement. Thankfully checks and balances were/are still in place and those news papers and TV stations got called out for biased reporting by programme advisory boards and night shows.
Unfortunately many people who also noticed the initial bias went the other extreme and started paying attention to the other side's propaganda instead. And sadly mainstream media was to slow to react.

In short: it was the first time I got to experience what I previously only read in history books and papers about historic propaganda. Just as Hiram Johnson famously said: "The first casualty when war comes is truth"

 

[TatteredHat]

This is like the CSI version of 1984, especially that first image, lol.