Support NeoGAF

[Poodlestrike]

This thread and every other thread like it boil down to people getting really pissed off at people bringing up serious issues with other countries and then they try to spin even doing so as some how "defending" North Korea.



I was stating a number off hand and then corrected it. I don't know what else you want/expect.

I'm inclined to disagree, honestly. What you term "people bringing up serious issues with other countries," I'm inclined to view as whataboutisms, attempts to deflect by brining up largely off-topic problems other countries have and trying to equate them with NK's issues. Some people overreact to that, it's true, but it doesn't excuse the original derail.

 

[bengraven]

You can't judge a country by what they allowed you to see. For every soldier giving you the thumbs up there's a soldier who got caught doing it but now in a labor camp. For every beautiful vista there's 10 senior officers killed because they didn't have room for them anymore. For every child you see with a smile there's a hundred born into concentration camps who's only crime was being the son of a grandfather who once dared say something against the government in private and was ratted out by a friend or family member. We know the atrocities exist, it's not something our media makes up to scare us.

Are family members really eating grass or in some cases their own children? Maybe that's propaganda. But we know for a FACT that they are committing MANY horrible acts against their own people.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

whataboutisms, attempts to deflect by brining up largely off-topic problems other countries have and trying to equate them with NK's issues. Some people overreact to that, it's true, but it doesn't excuse the original derail.

Sure, it's a derail, but "whataboutism" is intellectually lazy. If the problems with North Korea also exist in other countries but in terrible but less severe quantities, I don't think it is necessarily a problem that it comes up. Enforcing topics on political repression to follow a strict subject with buzz words like "whataboutism" seems to be less to do with concerns over the specified subject and more to do with white washing other problems. Appeals to morality do not exist when non of the actors possess the moral high ground.

North Korea is guilty of some serious shit but they're not alone, yet it often just seems like a wall for people to throw their angst against so they can avoid the realities of their own political situation.

Example: The "how dare you vacation to North Korea" seguing into discussions of people vacationing in Mexico, a country that literally has death squads, state sanctioned mass murder, soul crushing poverty and issues with malnutrition, famine, and starvation.

 

[aerts1js]

Sure, it's a derail, but "whataboutism" is intellectually lazy. If the problems with North Korea also exist in other countries but in terrible but less severe quantities, I don't think it is necessarily a problem that it comes up. Enforcing topics on political repression to follow a strict subject with buzz words like "whataboutism" seems to be less to do with concerns over the specified subject and more to do with white washing other problems. Appeals to morality do not exist when non of the actors possess the moral high ground.

North Korea is guilty of some serious shit but they're not alone, yet it often just seems like a wall for people to throw their angst against so they can avoid the realities of their own political situation.

Example: The "how dare you vacation to North Korea" seguing into discussions of people vacationing in Mexico, a country that literally has death squads, state sanctioned mass murder, soul crushing poverty and issues with malnutrition, famine, and starvation.

It's no more intellectually lazy than deflecting a countries problems just because some form of it also happens elsewhere. It happens at its absolute worst in North Korea.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

It's no more intellectually lazy than deflecting a countries problems just because some form of it also happens elsewhere. It happens at its absolute worst in North Korea.

I agree generally, but if someone goes to the lengths of grandstanding that a few people have in this thread I don't think its out of the question to ask them if they feel the same about other examples.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I realise this is an old thread and while I'll admit I'm fascinated by North Korea in a horrible way, I think literally paying the government money to go and see the world they've created to hide the revolting human rights abuses on their people is kind of ....not right.

Reading about those concentration camps feels completely surreal, I can't even process them being real, and so recent (and still running?).

 

[Chittagong]

Since my trip a year ago I have spoken about my experience with many different nationalities during my travels in Asia, Europe and USA. I found fascinating differences in attitude between American, European and Asian reactions to hearing I have been in North Korea. The opinions I have heard in different continents are remarkably universal to all my discussions.

American: They see me going to North Korea as awful. They despise how someone would willingly travel to a totalitarian regime with a dictator and a whole host of humanitarian problems. They think it's morally wrong and seem to think less of me after the fact. They tell to me in no uncertain terms what life in North Korea is like, they are not interested to hear my experiences.

European: They seem to be fascinated by the fact I have been in North Korea and tend not to view it as morally wrong. They are keen to understand how it was like there, whether it was like they have read. They also ask a lot of how I got into the country (the commonly held misbelief is that entry is hard). They are interested of things like everyday routines and media.

East-European: Actively say they would not want to be in a state like that again, that they have seen their share of it already. Not a long discussion.

Asian: Completely passive. They find it unintersting, dull and not sensational at all. North Korea holds no interest to them, and they think it's just an incredibly boring thing to do. Not a long discussion.

 

[gillty]

Since my trip a year ago I have spoken about my experience with many different nationalities during my travels in Asia, Europe and USA. I found fascinating differences in attitude between American, European and Asian reactions to hearing I have been in North Korea. The opinions I have heard in different continents are remarkably universal to all my discussions.

American: They see me going to North Korea as awful. They despise how someone would willingly travel to a totalitarian regime with a dictator and a whole host of humanitarian problems. They think it's morally wrong and seem to think less of me after the fact. They tell to me in no uncertain terms what life in North Korea is like, they are not interested to hear my experiences.

European: They seem to be fascinated by the fact I have been in North Korea and tend not to view it as morally wrong. They are keen to understand how it was like there, whether it was like they have read. They also ask a lot of how I got into the country (the commonly held misbelief is that entry is hard). They are interested of things like everyday routines and media.

East-European: Actively say they would not want to be in a state like that again, that they have seen their share of it already. Not a long discussion.

Asian: Completely passive. They find it unintersting, dull and not sensational at all. North Korea holds no interest to them, and they think it's just an incredibly boring thing to do. Not a long discussion.

I don't know if I said it the first time I read the OP a year or so ago, but you are completely delusional if you believe what you wrote in the OP is an accurate depiction of North Korean society.

Good for a laugh, thanks OP. o7

 

[Chittagong]

I don't know if I said it the first time I read the OP a year or so ago, but you are completely delusional if you believe what you wrote in the OP is an accurate depiction of North Korean society.

Good for a laugh, thanks OP. o7

Of course it's not. It's the facet they want to show us. It's a pretty extensive round trip, several hundred kilometers mostly consisting of very poor country side and ran down second tier towns. The fact that they choose to show that is interesting in itself. Is it the best they have? How bad is it elsewhere then? Or are they showing poorer stuff to make the experience more believable?

The other, considerably worse and better publicised sides of the country and society can not be accessed as a tourist, they can only be gathered from defector interviews or UN reports. There are several good links in this thread.