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[Frozenprince]

I know it ain't a paradise and bad stuff happens, but ALL countries commit atrocities and it is just the mystery surrounding NK that makes me want to visit.

Again.

The US doesn't have forced labor camps where we get 3 generations of people to be slaves and work themselves to death.

We don't kill people for simply questioning the government. We don't have massive famine that kills millions because of the greed of the central government.

NK is a totalitarian hellhole, it's not even remotely comparable to having Gitmo.

 

[aerts1js]

Look at the past 25 years of hard lined isolation and tell me what good any of it has done.

I don't understand what you mean by "walling them off."

The only ones preventing North Korea from getting more foreign investment and reform is North Korea themselves.... until they make some serious improvements (humanitarian, non-pursuit of nuclear weapons / military aggression, and just overall willingness of cooperation in the region) then they are going to continue to shut themselves out from the rest of the world.

Problem is North Korea wants to be isolated because once they open that door and people actually see first hand what's happening in that country........

 

[munchie64]

Excellent post. I knew NK was fucked up, but it wasn't until I read 'Nothing To Envy' that it really sank in. I highly recommend it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_Envy

Thanks for the recommendation. Looks like there's an audiobook too. Definitely will take a look.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I don't understand what you mean by "walling them off."

The only ones preventing North Korea from getting more foreign investment and reform is North Korea themselves.... until they make some serious improvements (humanitarian, non-pursuit of nuclear weapons / military aggression, and just overall willingness of cooperation in the region) then they are going to continue to shut themselves out from the rest of the world.

Problem is North Korea wants to be isolated because once they open that door and people actually see first hand what's happening in that country........

North Korea is not going to dismantle their political system. You have two choices,

A> Maintain isolation, the North Korea system continues and the nation still suffers chronic shortages.

B> Ease isolation, the North Korea system continues and the nation suffers less under less shortages.

If you goal is to alleviate suffering then the latter is your only option.

Opening up international discourse was the solution for Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and China. No reason to believe it won't be the same for North Korea.

 

[pgtl_10]

I would like to visit North Korea. I generally want to see things for myself and draw my own conclusions.

 

[TomShoe]

I would like to visit North Korea. I generally want to see things for myself and draw my own conclusions.

Same. Adding to my bucket list.

 

[andycapps]

North Korea is not going to dismantle their political system. You have two choices,

A> Maintain isolation, the North Korea system continues and the nation still suffers chronic shortages.

B> Ease isolation, the North Korea system continues and the nation suffers less under less shortages.

If you goal is to alleviate suffering then the latter is your only option.

Opening up international discourse was the solution for Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and China. No reason to believe it won't be the same for North Korea.

Most people would say that if you open up more economic aid to NK, that they'll just funnel all of that to the military and that the citizens will continue to starve and be enslaved in concentration camps.

 

[Frozenprince]

Most people would say that if you open up more economic aid to NK, that they'll just funnel all of that to the military and that the citizens will continue to starve and be enslaved in concentration camps.

That's already what happens with the limited aid we give them.

 

[aerts1js]

Most people would say that if you open up more economic aid to NK, that they'll just funnel all of that to the military and that the citizens will continue to starve and be enslaved in concentration camps.

This already happened. The government of NK views their own people as expendable and an easing of isolation isn't going to change that. This isn't China or Vietnam.. NK is its own, unique beast.

 

[aerts1js]

I would like to visit North Korea. I generally want to see things for myself and draw my own conclusions.

What are you talking about? You'd only be seeing what the NK government wants you to see. It's strictly a guided tour and you aren't free to walk around and explore wherever you'd like.

 

[andycapps]

That's already what happens with the limited aid we give them.

This already happened. The government of NK views their own people as expendable and an easing of isolation isn't going to change that. This isn't China or Vietnam.. NK is its own, unique beast.

Right, I was trying to play devil's advocate. But yes, I would assume that the pattern would continue if we were to loosen restrictions.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Most people would say that if you open up more economic aid to NK, that they'll just funnel all of that to the military and that the citizens will continue to starve and be enslaved in concentration camps.

The North Korean military is something g like 80% of the population, so anything that benefits it benefits the vast majority of the people.



ed


Also, with all of this said, the NK regime has been reforming itself. There has been increased reliance on markets and growth in certain economic sectors.

 

[Wilester]

What are you talking about? You'd only be seeing what the NK government wants you to see. It's strictly a guided tour and you aren't free to walk around and explore wherever you'd like.

While this is true, It's still nice to see the country with your own eyes, especially when you get out of Pyongyang and you're driving through more remote villages and towns.

 

[aerts1js]

While this is true, It's still nice to see the country with your own eyes, especially when you get out of Pyongyang and you're driving through more remote villages and towns.

But please don't use the tour to conclude: "everything is okay in NK!"

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

There is a video documentary/movie on Escape From Camp 14 with Shin himself.

Full movie here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihUOHARC_Og

 

[neogaffer1]

The OP legit reads like propaganda/astroturfing.

 

[legend166]

Oh look, this thread still makes me want to vomit.

 

[andycapps]

The North Korean military is something g like 80% of the population, so anything that benefits it benefits the vast majority of the people.



ed


Also, with all of this said, the NK regime has been reforming itself. There has been increased reliance on markets and growth in certain economic sectors.

Unless I'm missing something here, their population is close to 25 million, and active military is almost 1.2 million. That's not near 80%.

 

[aerts1js]

Unless I'm missing something here, their population is close to 25 million, and active military is almost 1.2 million. That's not near 80%.

I just ripped this from wikipedia; it's not close to 80% but still sizable. As far as active it's probably far less than 40%. NK also has a mandatory conscription service of like 10 years if I'm not mistaken.

"The KPA faces its primary adversaries, the Republic of Korea Armed Forces and United States Forces Korea, across the Korean Demilitarized Zone, as it has since the Armistice Agreement of July 1953. As of 2013, with 9,495,000 active, reserve, and paramilitary personnel, it is the largest military organization on Earth.[8] This number represents nearly 40% of the population,[9] and is the numeric equivalent of the entire population between ages 20 and 45.[10]"

edit: yeah, 1.2 million... not even close to 80%; that figure is wrong.

 

[blackflag]

I've only seen it from the DMZ which is plenty surreal enough.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Unless I'm missing something here, their population is close to 25 million, and active military is almost 1.2 million. That's not near 80%.

My mistake.

But 1.2 million active, 600,000 reserved, and another 7 million paramilitary, so roughly 40%, not 80%.

 

[Tesseract]

you have to be kinda gross inside to want to visit there. i don't think anything could change my mind of that, it's too horrendous a place for tourism

 

[ultra7k]

There is an old Korean saying that says : 남남북녀, which means South has the good looking men, North has the beautiful women. Not sure how far back it goes, but I'm pretty certain it is pre-war when the country was still just Korea.

With their record of kidnapping people and general track record, no way I'd ever spend a dime on anything DRPK related. Forget that.

 

[BronsonLee]

you have to be kinda gross inside to want to visit there. i don't think anything could change my mind of that, it's too horrendous a place for tourism

It's basically the most blatant facade of superiority a country could possibly put on. Massive circus-esque events for a group of like 10 people, crazy performances, etc.

 

[Chittagong]

In my opinion, the regime can never open up things at all, or the whole facade will blow the fuck up in less than a week.

Remember that these are people who have not heard of the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Super Mario or Apple. Some of them suspect that something is up when they see westerners rocking their iPads, but most just think that kimche is the world's favourite food everywhere. This surreal world is as fragile as it is weird. I am personally surprised that we got to even keep our devices for the duration of the trip. I guess the small number of tourists make the stories of westerners seem like stories of unicorns.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

In my opinion, the regime can never open up things at all, or the whole facade will blow the fuck up in less than a week.

Remember that these are people who have not heard of the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Super Mario or Apple. Some of them suspect that something is up when they see westerners rocking their iPads, but most just think that kimche is the world's favourite food everywhere. This surreal world is as fragile as it is weird. I am personally surprised that we got to even keep our devices for the duration of the trip. I guess the small number of tourists make the stories of westerners seem like stories of unicorns.

Dunno. Phones are confiscated for sure.

 

[bearythebear]

The ethics and morality issues are too big for me to even consider going there. Think about it. North Korea is desperate for US dollars. Heck, they have to make counterfeit dollars, and sell drugs just to get a little bit. Tourism is a very straightforward way for them to get US dollars to fuel their stranglehold on the people.

The NK government isn't stupid. They know why people want to go to their country and what they think of it. They play into the whole "controlling and fake" angle just for the tourists. It's also good propaganda when the citizens look at all the white people who are marvelling at the country.

Here's a good article about what the NK defectors think:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/01/tourism-north-korea-right-wrong-ethical-defectors


I also never liked the whole "Dark Tourism" thing. People pay for tours of slums in India. It's super fucked up.

 

[Supermanisdead]

It is intriguing, but I don't think I'll go and give N. Korea my tourism money. I know none of it is going to help the citizens so I feel like I'm just padding government officials' pockets. Fuck that.

This should be everyone's perspective. Who would ever want to shell out thousands so some psychopath murderers can import McDonalds. Just awful, IMO.

The "propaganda" isn't ""Western Media"" lies. It's factual reports from victims, satellite images and human rights groups. A hellhole in every sense of the word.

 

[Lucis]

I don't know about the surreal or friend part.
But beautiful? From the picture in the OP, the country looks loomy and gloomy and is anything but beautiful.

 

[Chittagong]

Dunno. Phones are confiscated for sure.

I kept my phone and tablet and had them all around the country, in bars, shops, parks, monuments, treks. They didn't connect to anything, but I had all kinds of music, videos, photos, magazines and such.

It doesn't sound like much until you think that rock or pop never arrived to North Korea because they are shut down. There is no youth fashion, kids and teens wear old man clothes and listen to march music. In that context an iPad full of films and music is pretty alien.

 

[Allforce]

Chittagong, what was the total cost for everything included in the tour?

 

[-Eddman-]

I certainly understand why some of you would not want to spend a dime in tourism for a horrible regime like North Korea's, but some others condemning people with interest are laughable. As a mexican, I just wish none of you consume drugs imported by mexican cartels or go to get wasted at Acapulco, Cancun, Cabo or whatever since you are supporting a regime who also treats its citizens like shit, but just happens to have a better PR department.

It would not be a "pleasure" or entertainment trip, but I would like to see the NK regime as a visitor with my own eyes if I could get the opportunity.

 

[SecretMoblin]

Yes, the difference between the governments of Mexico and North Korea is that one simply has a better PR department.

 

[-Eddman-]

Yes, the difference between the governments of Mexico and North Korea is that one simply has a better PR department.

Pro-tip: Mexico's biggest problem is inequity. You can find the former richest man on earth and there are many communities in states such as Michoacán, Guerrero or Chiapas that are living maybe in worst conditions of poverty and oppresion than NK.

 

[Supermanisdead]

Are you on the internet? Do you have electricity? Do you have running water? Is half your family in a concentration camp because your third cousin said he doesn't like the President's hair?

 

[Vanish]

It's a pretty cool thing to put on your brag list!

Why the fuck would I want to brag about visiting and contributing my money to a regime responsible for countless atrocities? Are all you supporters serious? You guys do realize that the earth is pretty big place with plenty of other beautiful spots to visit?

 

[-Eddman-]

Are you on the internet? Do you have electricity? Do you have running water? Is half your family in a concentration camp because your third cousin said he doesn't like the President's hair?

If that post was adressed at me, no, I live a fairly comfortable stereotypical western life, but my point was that my country gets a huge % of its income from tourism while thousands and thousands of its citizens are in fact, living under the circumstances you are describing, or worse.

I studied journalism and many of my friends have already been victims of "arbitrary detentions" or beatings by the police while documenting public protests in the last 2 years. A close friend was among the group of reporters fired last week from the MVS network after uncovering the shady home acquisitions by the president and his family. So yeah, I'm not talking out of my ass.

 

[Supermanisdead]

It's really not the same thing and I don't really know where to start to try to explain it. Of course Mexico is not perfect, but the fact that your friends were fired from a media job, the fact that it even exists, the fact that they can even write anything, the fact that they aren't languishing in a labour camp alongside their whole family for the next 3 generations makes it not even remotely comparable.

You may want to go, and you can if you want. But don't try to compare a trip to Cancun possibly having a portion of it's funds to a city official trying to quiet detractors to directly fueling the most corrupt, malicious and despotic regime on Earth.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Pro-tip: Mexico's biggest problem is inequity. You can find the former richest man on earth and there are many communities in states such as Michoacán, Guerrero or Chiapas that are living maybe in worst conditions of poverty and oppresion than NK.

Something like 200,000+ executions during the Calderon presidency alone, roaming death squads, and all of it is under de facto sanction of the state.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

While this is true, It's still nice to see the country with your own eyes, especially when you get out of Pyongyang and you're driving through more remote villages and towns.

You're not allowed to go to remote villages and towns iirc. I'm not against people going but let's be real here, you will not see the "real image of North Korea".

 

[-Eddman-]

It's really not the same thing and I don't really know where to start to try to explain it. Of course Mexico is not perfect, but the fact that your friends were fired from a media job, the fact that it even exists, the fact that they can even write anything, the fact that they aren't languishing in a labour camp alongside their whole family for the next 3 generations makes it not even remotely comparable.

You may want to go, and you can if you want. But don't try to compare a trip to Cancun possibly having a portion of it's funds to a city official trying to quiet detractors to directly fueling the most corrupt, malicious and despotic regime on Earth.

No, I'm not saying Mexico is the same thing as NK. My point was that the moral issues behind internet-shaming a guy who went to NK are laughable.

And no, Mexico is not (currently) in the same surreal level of corrupt (arguable) and despotic acts as Kim Jong's regime but they're certainly trying:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/12/mexico-james-bond-film-spectre-tax-incentives

 

[_Ryo_]

Supporting North Korea as it is now (except when it is to expose the horrifying nature of the place to the world and to an extent it's citizens but right now doing now it is highly probable that it would lead to their and their families death) is completely immoral and that definitely includes paying anything to visit for tourism. It's selfish, and despicable.

I would immediately break things off with anyone I know who supported and took part in such disgusting behaviour, be it friend, family member or romantic partner. I just can not reconcile someone wanting to entertain themselves at the cost of playing into the hands of one of the worst present governments.

 

[Chittagong]

Chittagong, what was the total cost for everything included in the tour?

Iirc it was about 1700eur all inclusive - flights from and to Beijing, hotels, all meals, guides, transportation, tips and sights for a week. Single payment, and unless you want to buy alcohol that's all cash you will spend all week.

 

[Ayumi]

Why the fuck would I want to brag about visiting and contributing my money to a regime responsible for countless atrocities? Are all you supporters serious? You guys do realize that the earth is pretty big place with plenty of other beautiful spots to visit?

Holy christ, I didn't expect you to take me that seriously. Chill out man. I never said to support NK, all I was trying to do was guessing why people might want to go there!

I never said *I* would go to stop accusing like a child. I do find scary/corrupted things interesting but I wouldn't want to support NK in any way.

 

[Silentium]

Look at the past 25 years of hard lined isolation and tell me what good any of it has done.



Nothing to Envy is one of the better NK books but still has some significant falsifications. One I remember is the book indicating that rice was unavailable in the city markets, which may have been true in certain situations at the time of publishing, but was not a specific "policy" so to speak, and definitely isn't the situation now.

If you're going to make statements defending the NK regime, you're going to need to back it up with evidence. While I'm willing to concede that providing evidence in support of an specific anecdote from a survivor book may be difficult, control over the food supply has been and is an official policy which has resulted in the deaths of literally millions of people.

Washington Post in 2013 concerning NK state control over food supply

...The government can't bring itself to surrender control over food. Though agricultural trade has more flexibility now than it did 15 or 20 years ago, it is still one of the world's most rigidly controlled. With a weak secondary market and virtually no social safety net, it's not difficult to imagine local North Korean communities facing the sort of brief but deadly famines that the rest of the world has largely learned to avoid. Unlike in places such as East Africa, where thousands died of hunger last year, the primary causes are not environmental but human.

The regime needs the secondary food trade to prevent mass starvation, but it appears to fear these markets as threats to its power. There is likely an ongoing cat-and-mouse game, with the state working to keep farmers sufficiently weak, and the secondary markets sufficiently spare, that everyone still relies on the regime to feed themselves. It's about power and control, and it places North Korean families at real risk.

The Economist in 2011

Although the public-distribution system for food has collapsed in much of the country, the regime has tried, albeit imperfectly, to stamp out informal markets, the only succour for many.

Some children in the North live ferally: they are known as kotjebi, or “fluttering swallows”, and roam in packs. When they cannot steal in the markets, they eat dead dogs and rotten food (reportedly chewing toothpaste in the belief that it prevents food poisoning).

The New York Times in 2014 regarding the NK famine of the 90s:

...during the great famine of the 1990s, between 600,000 and 2.5 million people died of hunger. According to the commission’s report, the North Korean regime, then headed by Kim Jong-il, obstructed the delivery of aid to the hungriest regions until 1997, and punished those who tried to earn, buy, steal or smuggle in enough food to survive. The regime was “well aware of the country’s deteriorating food situation” as it stocked airfields, reactors and palaces, rather than food stores.

According to one expert witness testimonial before the commission, the North Korean regime, at the height of the famine, could have closed its food gap by importing between $100 and $200 million worth of food each year, which is just 1 to 2 percent of its national income. Yet rather than using foreign food aid to supplement its own commercial food imports, the commission found that Kim Jong-il used aid “as a substitute for” them, cutting back on commercial food imports when more aid arrived.

----

I would like to visit North Korea. I generally want to see things for myself and draw my own conclusions.

Same. Adding to my bucket list.

While this is true, It's still nice to see the country with your own eyes, especially when you get out of Pyongyang and you're driving through more remote villages and towns.

This is a ludicrous attitude. You are never, ever going to see the real North Korea. The one that thousands of survivors, panels of experts and terabytes of satellite imagery tell us is basically end-game 1984 with a starving populace. It is insanity that you would discount the mountains of evidence in favour of 'seeing things with your own eyes'.

 

[Jenov]

Christ, I wonder if you same people wanting to visit NK would be wanting to visit Nazi Germany during the 1940s. Bu-bu-but, I want to see the camps myself so I can come to my own conclusions on Mr. Hitler and his country! How much did an all-inclusive to the Third Reich cost again?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

If you're going to make statements defending the NK regime, you're going to need to back it up with evidence. While I'm willing to concede that providing evidence in support of an specific anecdote from a survivor book may be difficult, control over the food supply has been and is an official policy which has resulted in the deaths of literally millions of people.

I don't understand what it is with you people and your inability to accept criticism of anything that isn't your politically designated "bad guy". It's easy for reasonable people to accept shitty conditions of multiple countries. I don't know why you people can't handle it and have to resort to jingoism and chauvinism.

 

[Poodlestrike]

I don't understand what it is with you people and your inability to accept criticism of anything that isn't your politically designated "bad guy". It's easy for reasonable people to accept shitty conditions of multiple countries. I don't know why you people can't handle it and have to resort to jingoism and chauvinism.

Huh? How does any of that have anything to do with their post?

 

[aerts1js]

I don't understand what it is with you people and your inability to accept criticism of anything that isn't your politically designated "bad guy". It's easy for reasonable people to accept shitty conditions of multiple countries. I don't know why you people can't handle it and have to resort to jingoism and chauvinism.

You are literally making statements and assumptions about North Korea without providing any evidence, facts, or numbers to back it up. In fact, the numbers you have brought up were incorrect and generally makes me feel as if you have no clue what idea talking about but I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt or the time being.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Huh? How does any of that have anything to do with their post?

This thread and every other thread like it boil down to people getting really pissed off at people bringing up serious issues with other countries and then they try to spin even doing so as some how "defending" North Korea.

You are literally making statements and assumptions about North Korea without providing any evidence, facts, or numbers to back it up. In fact, the numbers you have brought up were incorrect and generally makes me feel as if you have no clue what idea talking about but I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt or the time being.

I was stating a number off hand and then corrected it. I don't know what else you want/expect.