North Korea just shelled them some South Korea

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LiveFromKyoto said:
Buffer state. They gain by having NK distract the opposing powers in the region and tie up resources and attention. NK poses little to no threat to them because they're utterly dependent on China for their continued autonomy, and make a good proxy antagonist on their behalf.
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China is also worried about a unified Korea affecting their influence in the region and prefer to keep the status quo with NK in place.
 
BocoDragon said:
Appeasement? Really?

Give into Kim this time, and next time the goal post will move. It'll just be something else which the South has done to "provoke the North". And Kim gets more and more of what he wants. Don't give the North an inch.. They'll take a mile.

Besides, there is nothing out of the ordinary with a miltary drill on ones border. Russia performs drills on the border with Canada! Kim isn't actually threatened by it in the slightest. He knows it's a show. The whole reason the North acts as if they are threatened is because they are a military state. It's in their best interests at home to portray the SK drill as a big threat to them, even if they know it isn't. Then they can play "homeland defender" and legitimize their power.

Buts it's reasonably the same purpose in the south. They're both just posturing on a pretty equal field, and each side knows it. No need to ask one side to back off. It's part of the game of deterrence.
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It's in EVERYONE'S best interests to not start any type of war/attacks. Call it appeasement or whatever you want it doesn't matter. If NK is falling apart, and has a great chance to collapse when Kim dies (very soon), then why not delay any provocation to attacks?
 
Mr. E. Yis said:
What does being in the 'wrong' matter when we're the instigators of the fight? If stopping millions from dying and billions of dollars from being wasted, means stopping a worthless drill that's just meant to show our manhood and instigate trouble, then why not?? NK's tin foil hats that the US is out to get them become more true by the instant.
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The US isn't involved in this exercise. SK could stop it, but that would be politically crippling or fatal to their president.

Anyway, it's unlikely the north will attack while one of their favorite US VIPs is in the country.
 
Mr. E. Yis said:
It's in EVERYONE'S best interests to not start any type of war/attacks. Call it appeasement or whatever you want it doesn't matter. If NK is falling apart, and has a great chance to collapse when Kim dies (very soon), then why not delay any provocation to attacks?
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What you're essentially saying is "if you don't demonstrate that you can defend your borders, then no one will attack you". Which is of course the opposite of the truth. These drills are part of deterring attacks in the first place.

You are falling for Kims "self defense" argument, which is actually a ruse not even intended to convince the international community, but to secure legitimacy at home.

As I said, he didn't even attack the island because he was threatened by the drill, he used the drill - a regular occurance - in order to launch an unprovoked attack that would help transfer power to his son. After all, in a "miltary first" state, a leader needs any excuse he can get to play "military defender".. Even if the "defense" in question is in response to a regular drill that no strategist would consider a real threat.

There's also no reason to presume the state is falling soon.. We heard the same thing in 94. Any appeasement you do now could move the goalpost for decades to come.
 
You don't get peace by giving into the demands of a totalitarian state. They see it merely as a sign of weakness, then demand more.
 
Smiles and Cries said:
all the videos on CNN seem to talk of some kind of tension :?
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Let me break it down for you.

  • Way back when the UN gave some waters/islands to South Korea and the North never acknowledged it.
  • South Korea wants to affirm that it is theirs, so they hold regular drills there.
  • North decides to be insane and says stop doing that in our area or we'll shell your shit because you are making us do it.
  • South goes ahead with drills, North attacks civilian areas, shells are exchanged.
  • Defense minister for South quits because shit got too real.
  • South Korean president is pissy, US and Korean defense heads encourage each other to act tougher and air strike shit if the North does it again.
  • New drills are planned to say "You don't control us" to North.
  • North says if South does that, they will strike again, harder than last time.
  • Rest of the world says hey everybody, calm the fuck down.
  • Involved parties continue to act like they want war.
 
Dice said:
People have already died. How much is "something" to you?
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well we all act like when South Korea is attacked and a few die, nothing happens, just keeping with the flow of things

thats why I'll come back in about 10 days when a few more die and nothing happens and ask "I thought this shit was over?"
 
Gues who's starting real shell firing exercice today ?

And guess who's just land in SK a couple of hours ago ? :D (now I need to find a place to play StarCraft 2)
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1815809120101218

Dec 18 (Reuters) - The U.N. Security Council will most likely convene an emergency session on Saturday on the escalating tension between North and South Korea, council diplomats said.
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Yeah, this isn't over yet.

EDIT: Wow, moved to Sunday already, but it looks like the Russians requested it...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BH1BB20101218

Earlier on Saturday, diplomats had said the meeting was tentatively scheduled for 3 p.m. (2000 GMT), but an envoy later told Reuters: "There will not be a meeting today but most likely there will be one tomorrow."

Another council diplomat said the emergency session on North Korea would probably take place at 11 a.m. (1600 GMT) on Sunday, but the time could be changed again.

The meeting was called at the request of Russia, an envoy said. It was unclear what the 15-member council planned to do. Diplomats said they hoped to issue some kind of statement to help ease the tension in the region.
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Looks like it was moved due to the postponement of the live fire exercise again today. Russia will likely put a lot of pressure on SK/US to attempt to stop these exercises altogether.
 
panda21 said:
why is anyone sticking up for NK? Russia isnt even communism any more and NK is just plain batshit crazy at this point
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It's all about stability.

No one is friends with NK :lol
 
Why doesn't that article mention the fake remains they gave to Japan?

And what is this suppose to mean, anyway? Good will to the US has no connection to them telling South Korea to concede their own waters at the threat of violence. People need to call out North Korea on the total bullshit they are trying to pull. Nobody is being unreasonable except them. They are trying to control what goes on in an area that does not belong to them.
 
Dice said:
Why doesn't that article mention the fake remains they gave to Japan?

And what is this suppose to mean, anyway? Good will to the US has no connection to them telling South Korea to concede their own waters at the threat of violence. People need to call out North Korea on the total bullshit they are trying to pull. Nobody is being unreasonable except them. They are trying to control what goes on in an area that does not belong to them.
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dunno returning remains to me seems more of an insult at this time than making peace, is it just to remind them they have 8,000 missing and letting them wonder why they are never going to see an end to this
 
I gotta say, this bullshit has been pissing me off:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101219/wl_nm/us_korea_north
South Korea's Defense Ministry offered no immediate comment on the Yonhap report. Bad weather has so far delayed the planned firing drill at a disputed border that has enraged Pyongyang.

Both sides have said they will use military means to defend what they say is their territory off the west coast, raising international concern that the standoff could quickly spiral out of control.
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They aren't two kids fighting over who gets to play with a toy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Limit_Line

This is an issue of the North no longer (they used to) complying with a SANE border decision made by many nations to keep them from fucking with the function of those islands. What is with reports like these? Trying to impress Russia and China? Cut the shit and tell the facts straight.
 
panda21 said:
why is anyone sticking up for NK? Russia isnt even communism any more and NK is just plain batshit crazy at this point
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beacose the policy of Russia and China is basicly "the oposite of whatever the US is doing" :D
 
In that war imminent thread, someone mentioned something about russian submarines interfering with the last drill or something? What's that about?
 
Dice said:
I gotta say, this bullshit has been pissing me off:

They aren't two kids fighting over who gets to play with a toy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Limit_Line

This is an issue of the North no longer (they used to) complying with a SANE border decision made by many nations to keep them from fucking with the function of those islands. What is with reports like these? Trying to impress Russia and China? Cut the shit and tell the facts straight.
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I subscribe to the theory that this is as much about Kim trying to maintain his authority within his own government as anything, appeasing the hawks by trying to look strong before he hands over the reigns. Otherwise it's just such a random power play to make now.
 
LiveFromKyoto said:
Good breakdown, though I'd amend that last part, they're at war, and always have been, just with temporary states of cease fire.
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Yeah, my emphasis there was on the desire. It's like the world (and much of the civilians) are in the middle saying "Let's be cool... Yeah, you still have shit with each other, but there is a nice wall..." and then the leadership of the countries are all "YOU WANNA GO, HOMIE?! LET'S DO THIS!" at each other.

LiveFromKyoto said:
I subscribe to the theory that this is as much about Kim trying to maintain his authority within his own government as anything, appeasing the hawks by trying to look strong before he hands over the reigns. Otherwise it's just such a random power play to make now.
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What I find interesting about that article is that it reads like this:

UN: "We have to appear to not be worthless!"

UN EMERGENCY TEAM: ASSEMBLE!

Group 1: "Those assholes need to back off! We have to tell them to stop!" (as if they will listen)
Group 2: "Everyone needs to stop doing anything!" (as if both will just never use those waters)
Both: "..."

*sternly glare at each other across the table*

Both: "Shit. This is why it got like this to begin with, huh? Okay, let's just watch."
 
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