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[linsivvi]

alright then try this one.

what mp3 player sold more than apple's top of the line iPod?

Not Sony's network walkman for sure.

 

[plagiarize]

huh? when did i say that. The guitar controller is ONLY used for one game. Atleast one type of game....its not trying to **** up other Genres with its controller.

so the wii remote is *trying* to **** up genres? that's an interesting opinion.

 

[LOCK]

Gotta love GAF

 

[Haunted]

In all honesty, Sony, and to a much lesser extent Microsoft, have advanced technology to the point where it's no longer feasible for the average game consumer to purchase one of their consoles. People here are complaining that the rise of Nintendo means that there won't be any new advances in hardware. That isn't true. It just means advances in hardware will, in the future, more closely follow what consumers will pay for that hardware.

In short, the market can't support Sony's $600 price. That much is blatantly obvious. HD graphics and enhanced DVD (Blu-ray) should've been released when Sony could price it at $300/console. The Wii pretty much came in and took Sony's market, because Sony decided not to sell to their market anymore.

Needs to be quoted again for the truth.

 

[Luckyman]

If PSP sold ~1M software, is it doomed?

 

[psy18]

But you forget why ipod became the ruler. It wasn't because of a product lineup. They won because it had the best ease of use and design. There are many tech heads, myself included, that did not buy an ipod because it didn't offer things like gapless playback, digital audio out, color, etc. We bought our irivers and cowons but had to suffer with poor UI and firmware. (Thank god for RockBox.) Which system is differentiating itself from the others with it's intuitive controller and slim design? Not Sony.

True. Damn you NWA-3000!! (it has better sound though)

 

[linsivvi]

This is not spin.

Playstation = iPod

Playstation have ps1, ps2, ps3, psp
iPod have 1G 2G 3G mini shuffle nano

It is a happy family. ps3 will soar in 2007-2008. iPod launch was expensive and sold less to Creative.

who won the ruler of mp3?

Thanks for putting the apples and oranges together.

So why don't you compare Colgate's entire product line against the Playstation brand too?

 

[Vagabundo]

Sorry [snip]

Sorry if i ...[snip] Sorry if i don't...[snip]

I'm sorry ..[snip]

I'm terribly sorry.

I don't believe you. You not sorry. You enjoyed saying all that.

 

[urk]

Comparing the iPod to the Playstation 3? Really?

I won't get too deep into it, but the digital distribution landscape changes that have allowed Apple to take such a strong foothold in the portable music player department have no analog in the gaming world. Apple launched and had to compete with free music downloads that made the hardware choice for consumers near irrelevant. The iPod's subsequent market domination has less to do with hardware features then it does the software service behind it now that digital downloading, at least for mainstream consumers, has become a pay service.

If you want to compare the iPod and the PS3, then you have to look at what drives their sales, music and games respectively.

 

[REV 09]

i know this is a generalization, and that most on this forum are the "exceptions", but i still don't think that the guy playing the 360 is the same customer purchasing the wii and wii play. Imo, they're truthfully almost exact opposites. One is next gen, and one is "new" gen. I also feel that just because the wii has great success in it's new market, that it won't detract from the standard game market or from publishers making games for the high end systems. Some of you seem to think that just because the wii's successful that all of gaming is going to shift into that direction...it isn't. i think that for the most part, gamers under the age of 14 are playing the wii and ds while gamers over that age are playing the 360 and ps2. I think it's great that these 2 systems are targeting two separate markets and performing extremely well in those markets. Again, i do understand that i'm generalizing the markets and that there are many exceptions.

i own a 360, ps3, and a DS.

 

[CorwinB]

Well, 6-1/2 years is extraordinary even for market leaders and we shouldn't expect ANYthing to match it. It could continue to dominate for another three years, get retired in favor of the DS2/Game Boy Awesome/whatever, and still be significantly behind the PS2.

But to answer your question more directly: DS probably won't last as long as PS2's lifespan because Nintendo will replace it with a competent successor.

Ok. Makes sense.

 

[ZeoVGM]

How can i explain that i wouldn't expect a grown up man spending his own time alone playing a game about making surgeries. I can't explain how he wouldn't be interested in fighting princess peach in SMb.

You're right. You can't explain it.

All you did was say WHAT they would be doing in the game and that in NO WAY made your point valid.

Fun fact: SSBM is still played all over college campuses to this day. Just this week a local college here had a huge tournament.

"I wouldn't expect a grown up man to play a game about making surgeries." Um.. why?

How is that kiddy? You're not EXPLAINING anything because you can't. You have NO argument. You are wrong.

ecause i can't tell you why i wouldn't expect a grown up to walk into a theatre to watch Cars on his own.

Uh, wow man. This just proves how out of touch you are. I saw Cars with my girlfriend and it was MAINLY teenagers and people in their 20's. Lots of kids too, obviously. You just used an example that actually proves MY point. Games like SSB and Trauma Center, just like movies from Pixar, are for EVERYONE. People of all ages love them. That isn't in any shape or form arguable.

Also, you said "to watch Cars on his own", adding "on his own" to try and make your point more valid.

Sorry uh, people play video games on their own all the time. It's far less likely that someone will go to a movie theater by him/herself. Whether it be Cars or The Departed.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

so the wii remote is *trying* to **** up genres? that's an interesting opinion.

only Genres that require precise timing and controls.

If SSB: BRAW was using the Wiimote there would have been Riots? Why is it not using the Wiimote you think? it is one of the biggest games.

 

[soul creator]

It probably won't happen, but I'd love to see if MS could reach a point before the end of the year where they can comfortably sell the core 360 for $199, (ideally with HD cables and the small memory card included). They will have been out for 2 years in November, so I would imagine there'll be some sort of cost reduction on the 360. I guess the reason I'll be curious is because everyone's saying Sony and to a lesser extent MS has priced themselves out the market, which is true...but MS is pretty much a price drop away from "mass market".

It'd be interesting to see how the Wii and 360 would match up if they're roughly similar prices. In this way, you'll pretty much always know that customers are making a direct "gaming philosophy I like" decision rather than "damn it costs too much" decision. Oh, and this idea would require the elimination of the "premium" system and having all hard drives be sold separately. That way people can't look at the 360 and say "well, the real price is $299...". If there's only one model for $199, then they pretty much have to look at it as that price

 

[Tritroid]

Didn't we have this very same argument in the PSP/DS wars, back when they were competitive? "OMFG NON-GAMES ARE RUINING THE INDUSTRY," etc. etc.?

In all honesty, Sony, and to a much lesser extent Microsoft, have advanced technology to the point where it's no longer feasible for the average game consumer to purchase one of their consoles. People here are complaining that the rise of Nintendo means that there won't be any new advances in hardware. That isn't true. It just means advances in hardware will, in the future, more closely follow what consumers will pay for that hardware.

In short, the market can't support Sony's $600 price. That much is blatently obvious. HD graphics and enhanced DVD (Blu-ray) should've been released when Sony could price it at $300/console. The Wii pretty much came in and took Sony's market, because Sony decided not to sell to their market anymore.

That is right on the money.

 

[brain_stew]

I don't see him saying the momentum is slowing down, more that the system won't last for another 4.5 years, I think it will most likely be replaced by then.

Well considering the GBA is STILL trucking, over 2 years since the launch of the DS, I don't think the introduction of a new handheld really heralds the end for the DS.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

"I don't want to live in a Nintendo-dominated future."

"Nintendo will ruin my hobby"

"blah, blah, blah, non-games/gimmicks, blah blah"

:lol @ the spin. I had a long reply to stuff, but seriously, there's nothing needed to be said besides... THIS IS SPARTA! THIS IS MADNESS!

Didn't we have this very same argument in the PSP/DS wars, back when they were competitive? "OMFG NON-GAMES ARE RUINING THE INDUSTRY," etc. etc.?

In all honesty, Sony, and to a much lesser extent Microsoft, have advanced technology to the point where it's no longer feasible for the average game consumer to purchase one of their consoles. People here are complaining that the rise of Nintendo means that there won't be any new advances in hardware. That isn't true. It just means advances in hardware will, in the future, more closely follow what consumers will pay for that hardware.

In short, the market can't support Sony's $600 price. That much is blatently obvious. HD graphics and enhanced DVD (Blu-ray) should've been released when Sony could price it at $300/console. The Wii pretty much came in and took Sony's market, because Sony decided not to sell to their market anymore.

QFT. Everything I wanted to say, concisely written in a well-put post.

 

[Evlar]

The only reason Nintendo released the GBC, the GBA, and the DS was to directly respond to a new challenger to the handheld throne. Otherwise, we saw how they milked the Gameboy.

PSP just got beat down - who else would be foolhardy enough to try and take on Nintendo in the portable realm now?

Someone will. Microsoft has some incentive to encroach a little bit into Nintendo territory, perhaps in another convergence device (MP3/phone/camera/organizer/game system). While toppling Nintendo probably wouldn't be their main objective I could see them pushing the XBox brand as a weapon in their on-going war with Apple's iPod, and then Nintendo would have to respond.

And Apple themselves could conceivable enter the portable gaming market more forcefully in response to MS, and others may jump in for similar reasons. I doubt anyone will enter that market specifically to take down Nintendo but I do think they will enter as part of a larger strategy.

 

[sonycowboy]

World-wide or in the US? WW, definately. US, probably not. It outsold the 360 by 100k - it's going to take a long time for it to catch up at that rate, and we know the 360 will drop in price soon.

It won't catch the 360 this year, as it's behind by 3.2M units, but the Wii is still supply constrained. It probably could have outsold the 360 by much, much more. We have to wait until units stay on shelves to know what the support level by month will be.

We have very good data that suggest that the 360 is going to sell 50-55k/week until either a price drop hits or something signficant with the platform happens. You can look at the release schedule and hope for a bump, but that hasn't happened in the past 8 months despite some pretty big releases (FN R3, Oblivion, GRAW, Madden, Dead Rising, Saints Row, Gears of War, Lost Planet, and Crackdown), so I don't see it happening until at least Halo.

If the Wii can maintain a 80/week in the US this year, it would catch up on the 360 by ~120-150k per non-holiday month in the US and probably by 20k month in Canada based on current results. And then what happens once we hit October-December?

That would let it catch up 1M units before October and who knows how the year would end out?

Again, it almost certainly won't catch the 360 this year in the US, but it will in Europe and worldwide and could pass the 360 sometime in 2008 in the US.

Based on current trends (which can change based on a variety of events/factors)

 

[DCharlie]

go back to playing your commodore 64.

awesome advice - and all those who are only interested in graphics, skip the PS3 and buy a top end PC (and then play C64 games on it)

 

[plagiarize]

only Genres that require precise timing and controls.

If SSB: BRAW was using the Wiimote there would have been Riots? Why is it not using the Wiimote you think? it is one of the biggest games.

you said it was *trying* to mess up genres. something which i can't accept at all.

the wii remote is a great alternative (arguably better) for many genres out there, but obviously it isn't superior for ALL games.

that's why the classic controller exists though.

 

[shpankey]

greatest generation ever bitches!

that mofo is as cool as the other side of the pillow. :lol

 

[Vagabundo]

THIS IS SPARTA! THIS IS MADNESS!

So who is the Spartans?

 

[Nameless]

If you look at the sales of the PS2 over the past several months, and even the Wii sales, I think its obvious that people are content to wait a year or two before getting a next-gen system, in hopes that it will be cheaper. I worked at Best Buy for the PS2 launch and was shocked that both the PSone and the DC were in high as demand as they were--the usual sentiment being that they weren't ready to spend $300 on a PS2 right now, but did want one in the future.

With that said, I wouldn't be suprised to see a MASSIVE shift later on. Though, Wii could possible sustain its steam-- The least expensive option in the past were with defunct systems not recieving much support, this time around its with a new console. But I willing to bet anything that the Wii ultimately won't end up being most owner's only console this generation more so a compliment to the PS3 and 360.

The battle between MS and Sony will come down to who ends up attracting the most late adopters.

 

[TheGreatDave]

only Genres that require precise timing and controls.

If SSB: BRAW was using the Wiimote there would have been Riots? Why is it not using the Wiimote you think? it is one of the biggest games.

It's bound to have support for the Wiimote. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it Wiimote only before it comes out. I've never seen what's difficult about mapping the game to it anyway.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I'm sure it's been mentioned before in this 50-page thread, but I just can't think of a SINGLE thing that can help PS3 this year.

Wii will continue to sell well and will only get a huge boost with Mario AND/or SSB this year, not to mention whatever else.

360, imagine if it just ditches the dumb core and drops the premium by $100 this summer (and maybe put out a better model with a bigger hard drive -- maybe an HD-DVD player too for the price it is now). They do that this summer, followed by Halo and GTA4? Sales will be huge.

It's going to come down to that this fall. Consumers are going to ask themselves, "well, I want GTA4. Should I pay $600 or $400 (or $300 if the price drops!) for the same game? And if I pay the lesser amount, I can play Halo 3 too!"

 

[FrankT]

It won't catch the 360 this year, as it's behind by 3.2M units, but the Wii is still supply constrained. It probably could have outsold the 360 by much, much more. We have to wait until units stay on shelves to know what the support level by month will be.

We have very good data that suggest that the 360 is going to sell 50-55k/week until either a price drop hits or something signficant with the platform happens. You can look at the release schedule and hope for a bump, but that hasn't happened in the past 8 months despite some pretty big releases (FN R3, Oblivion, GRAW, Madden, Dead Rising, Saints Row, Gears of War, Lost Planet, and Crackdown), so I don't see it happening until at least Halo.

If the Wii can maintain a 80/week in the US this year, it would catch up on the 360 by ~120-150k per non-holiday month in the US and probably by 20k month in Canada based on current results. And then what happens once we hit October-December?

That would let it catch up 1M units before October and who knows how the year would end out?

Again, it almost certainly won't catch the 360 this year in the US, but it will in Europe and worldwide and could pass the 360 sometime in 2008 in the US.

Based on current trends (which can change based on a variety of events/factors)

If you take December out of the equation in the last 8 months this point stands. December was huge for the 360 as I expect this holiday season to be much, much bigger for it, Halo 3, GTAIV, plus price drop, yes indeed it will be huge. Discounting December is like discounting 4 months or more of sales.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

i think that for the most part, gamers under the age of 14 are playing the wii and ds while gamers over that age are playing the 360 and ps2. I think it's great that these 2 systems are targeting two separate markets and performing extremely well in those markets. Again, i do understand that i'm generalizing the markets and that there are many exceptions.

Do people (or more importantly, publishers) honestly believe this? I mean seriously, the whole reason the Wii and DS are receiving so much success is because of games like Brain Training, Wii Sports, Nintendogs and Wii Play which are reaching non-gamers (the majority of which are mature), kids and everything in-between alike; that's their whole strategy and people still put it down to a "kids' ability to admire Pokemon," as Phil Harrison so eloquently put it.

 

[plagiarize]

So who is the Spartans?

the best analogy i think would be the sony fans fighting valiantly against overwhelming odds.

except without the part where it makes a difference in the ongoing war.

 

[xsarien]

don have mp3 mpd data.
who is applecowboy? beep hoink hoink. we need applecowboy!

It's a trick question.

 

[Vagabundo]

Again, it almost certainly won't catch the 360 this year in the US, but it will in Europe and worldwide and could pass the 360 sometime in 2008 in the US.

Based on current trends (which can change based on a variety of events/factors)

I'm very interested in what will happen once production capacity has been increased. How high can the demand go? (for the Wii) And how will the seasons effect the Wii demand.

 

[Arsenal]

PSP just got beat down - who else would be foolhardy enough to try and take on Nintendo in the portable realm now?

Seeing as how Sony makes a nice profit on the PSP, I'm sure they are going to remain "foolhardy" and continue to stay in the market making money. I'm sure they cringe when they see the absurd numbers that the DS is putting up, but as long as the accountants in the back room are seeing black numbers you can count this as a success for Sony.

I'm sure MS is also targeting the handheld market as well. Nobody is going to touch the DS this gen (and probably next too), but that doesn't mean there isn't money to be made and value to be had by establishing a portable platform even if you are not the market leader. The handheld market is only going to get more important in the future and this isn't something that MS is going to walk away from.

 

[plagiarize]

Seeing as how Sony makes a nice profit on the PSP, I'm sure they are going to remain "foolhardy" and continue to stay in the market making money. I'm sure they cringe when they see the absurd numbers that the DS is putting up, but as long as the accountants in the back room are seeing black numbers you can count this as a success for Sony.

I'm sure MS is also targeting the handheld market as well. Nobody is going to touch the DS this gen (and probably next too), but that doesn't mean there isn't money to be made and value to be had by establishing a portable platform even if you are not the market leader. The handheld market is only going to get more important in the future and this isn't something that MS is going to walk away from.

and as we're seeing now, and have seen in the past, no one is untouchable.

all it will take is for nintendo to make a dumb move (as they did with the N64 and as sony did with the price and spec of the PS3) and it'll be anyone's game.

 

[Oblivion]

People are STILL comparing PS3 to ipod?

 

[Wiitard]

It probably won't happen, but I'd love to see if MS could reach a point before the end of the year where they can comfortably sell the core 360 for $199, (ideally with HD cables and the small memory card included). They will have been out for 2 years in November, so I would imagine there'll be some sort of cost reduction on the 360. I guess the reason I'll be curious is because everyone's saying Sony and to a lesser extent MS has priced themselves out the market, which is true...but MS is pretty much a price drop away from "mass market".

It'd be interesting to see how the Wii and 360 would match up if they're roughly similar prices. In this way, you'll pretty much always know that customers are making a direct "gaming philosophy I like" decision rather than "damn it costs too much" decision. Oh, and this idea would require the elimination of the "premium" system and having all hard drives be sold separately. That way people can't look at the 360 and say "well, the real price is $299...". If there's only one model for $199, then they pretty much have to look at it as that price

Well, Sony is also one price cut away from mass market. Just cut the price of 20 gig to, say, 300.

So Microsoft cuts price of core to 199. before is was going to sell x million consoles at a profit p. Now they are selling a x+y million consoles at a loss of at least $100 for console.
You get a bunch of people buying the core and never downloading arcade games, never buying life - very profitable customers.

So how much do you they would sell with core at $199? Say 15 million? That is a loss of 1.5 billion. How much would they have sold without that (you know, Halo 3 coming and all that)? At least some 7 million, right. And now they are making something like $40 on hardware (premium). So they go from a profit of 280 million to a loss of 1.5 billion in just one year. That is HALF of what they invested in the original Xbox right there. In just the first year of this brilliant policy. Yeah, core at 199 for the win...

 

[Kabuki Waq]

you said it was *trying* to mess up genres. something which i can't accept at all.

the wii remote is a great alternative (arguably better) for many genres out there, but obviously it isn't superior for ALL games.

that's why the classic controller exists though.

which Genre has the wiimote actually proved to be better for?

mini games dont count as a genre.

 

[shpankey]

Wii Sports! Wii Sports!!! I'm telling you...this is a effing KILLER AP.

i can verify this [anecdotally only, of course]. i have so many non-gamer friends talking about it just out of the blue. people i've known for awhile who never play games are going to parties with Wii's and this game and now it's all they talk about. hell, just the other day some girls from my class i was talking to just randomly went off about how awesome it was. i was pretty shocked.

anyhow, i really like the precedent that selling a console [PS3 I mean] at this price sets [poor sales]. i want every manufacturer of all consoles in the future to KNOW that pricing a new system at this ridiculous price is suicide. i had thought they learned with the 3DO, but alas.... here we are.

time for that price drop now Sony. i wonder if their ego is so huge that they will refuse to drop the price for fear of it seeming like a reaction to these poor sales. i don't see Sony as the type of company who would admit they fuked up, even if it's only indirectly.

 

[Mononofu]

Well, Sony is also one price cut away from mass market. Just cut the price of 20 gig to, say, 300.

So Microsoft cuts price of core to 199. before is was going to sell x million consoles at a profit p. Now they are selling a x+y million consoles at a loss of at least $100 for console.
You get a bunch of people buying the core and never downloading arcade games, never buying life - very profitable customers.

So how much do you they would sell with core at $199? Say 15 million? That is a loss of 1.5 billion. How much would they have sold without that (you know, Halo 3 coming and all that)? At least some 7 million, right. And now they are making something like $40 on hardware (premium). So they go from a profit of 280 million to a loss of 1.5 billion in just one year. That is HALF of what they invested in the original Xbox right there. In just the first year of this brilliant policy. Yeah, core at 199 for the win...

He speaks the truth.

 

[Pureauthor]

which Genre has the wiimote actually proved to be better for?

mini games dont count as a genre.

Well, thus far, simulation games.

Trauma Centre is <3.

 

[xsarien]

People are STILL comparing PS3 to ipod?

To be fair, it's a smidge more accurate than the $200 steak dinner / Exotic, European sportscar / precious metals bullshit metaphors we usually get.

 

[Nameless]

i can verify this [anecdotally only, of course]. i have so many non-gamer friends talking about it just out of the blue. people i've known for awhile who never play games are going to parties with Wii's and this game and now it's all they talk about. hell, just the other day some girls from my class i was talking to just randomly went off about how awesome it was. i was pretty shocked.

anyhow, i really like the precedent that selling a console at this price sets [poor sales]. i want every manufacturer of all consoles in the future to KNOW that pricing a new system at this ridiculous price is suicide. i had thought they learned with the 3DO, but alas.... here we are.

time for that price drop now Sony. i wonder if their ego is so huge that they will refuse to drop the price for fear of it seeming like a reaction to these poor sales.

I can vouch for that. MY PARENTS knew what a Wii was, and these were the same people who would probably still be in the VHS age if I hadn't bought them a DVD player 5 years ago.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Well, thus far, simulation games.

Trauma Centre is <3.

simulation games? WTF is that? only TRauma centre? you told me Wiimote is better for MANY genres and all you could come up with is TRauma Centre? Medical Simulation Genre?

 

[TheGreatDave]

which Genre has the wiimote actually proved to be better for?

mini games dont count as a genre.

Zelda?

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Zelda?

plays just as well even better in some aspects with the GC controller.

 

[Vagabundo]

which Genre has the wiimote actually proved to be better for?

mini games dont count as a genre.

casual sport games

 

[plagiarize]

which Genre has the wiimote actually proved to be better for?

mini games dont count as a genre.

RTS games. racing games (though those are just as good on the SIXAXIS with motion control). point and click adventure games. football games (based on madden reviews).

these haven't all been released on the wii, but all would play arguably better on the wiimote rather than a joypad.

 

[Vagabundo]

which Genre has the wiimote actually proved to be better for?

mini games dont count as a genre.

console fps's, (yes I own red steel and cod3)

 

[DefectiveReject]

according to Nintendo's press Wii is supply constrained so as Sony Cowboy said we need to wait for supply to meet demand before seeing if Wii can maintain momentum

February, with consumers snapping up virtually every system available in America totaling more than 335,000 units.

 

[Pureauthor]

simulation games? WTF is that? only TRauma centre? you told me Wiimote is better for MANY genres and all you could come up with is TRauma Centre? Medical Simulation Genre?

The fact remains that the Wii is the only one of the three next-gen systems that could pull Trauma Centre off.

Not to mention that Racing Games (Excite Truck) have a more natural control scheme on the Wii as well.

 

[Masklinn]

Do people (or more importantly, publishers) honestly believe this?

No idea, but I'm 24 and own both a DS and a Wii, no 360, no PS2 (I lapsed and went PC from ~'95 to 2006 with the euro release of the DS Lite).

And I can tell you that among my colleague, out of 20 persons there are a dozen DSs and about 2 PSPs.

And many wiis (less than PS2s though, and as far as I can tell no PS3 planned to be bought).

Oh, the population is 22-35 by the way.

simulation games? WTF is that? only TRauma centre? you told me Wiimote is better for MANY genres and all you could come up with is TRauma Centre? Medical Simulation Genre?

Fact: Trauma Center would be utterly unplayable on a 360 or a PS3.
Fact: Trauma Center was first released on the DS.
Fact: The DS just recently got more simulation games (SimCity and Tycoon)
Fact: Expect to see more of these on the Wii, and they won't suck. I remember Sim City on SNES, and boy was it unplayable compared to mouse-controlled versions...