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[ksamedi]

At this point the poor quality > poor sales > poor quality cycle is something of a chicken-or-egg thing. Sales are poor, so publishers lower their Wii budgets or put their 'B-teams' on Wii development, which results in poor sales, which hardly motivates publishers to do their best.

Resident Evil 4 did reasonably well, but until there's a breakout third party title that shows quality can sell on Wii even without a Nintendo logo on the box, I'm afraid all we'll see are B-quality titles from these publishers -- which, in turn, means that the cycle won't be broken and that breakout title will never appear.

The precedent set by the DS isn't particularly encouraging either: great third party games exist, but they're the exception rather than the rule -- and more often than not, their sales are nothing to write home about.

The titles released on Wii so far are just rush jobs to get a piece of the Wii pie, it has nothing to do wih how publishers perceive the system, its just that they rushed what could be rushed and they probably still made a profit. I think by the end of 2008 you will see some reall quality from third parties on the Wii, be it casual or hardcore. Good software takes time to make, you cant expect something to sell with only 6 months of dev time (Boogie) unless you have an idea like Brain Training.


EDIT: And why doesn't Resident evil count? It has a chance to hit a million when Capcom was expecting 420k.

 

[AniHawk]

I wonder whatever happened to Michel Ancel. The last I read of him, he was working on the first RRR. He hasn't come out publicly for anything in over a year that I know of though.

 

[ksamedi]

I wonder whatever happened to Michel Ancel. The last I read of him, he was working on the first RRR. He hasn't come out publicly for anything in over a year that I know of though.

RRR2?

 

[AniHawk]

RRR2?

Maybe. It's just weird that we haven't heard anything from him though.

 

[plagiarize]

The titles released on Wii so far are just rush jobs to get a piece of the Wii pie, it has nothing to do wih how publishers perceive the system, its just that they rushed what could be rushed and they probably still made a profit. I think by the end of 2008 you will see some reall quality from third parties on the Wii, be it casual or hardcore. Good software takes time to make, you cant expect something to sell with only 6 months of dev time (Boogie) unless you have an idea like Brain Training.


EDIT: And why doesn't Resident evil count? It has a chance to hit a million when Capcom was expecting 420k.

RE4 doesn't count because if it did, well, there'd be a precedent that showed the people were wrong!

the Wii is in a similar position to the DS was at this point of it's life. it wasn't really until the second year of the DS that we started to see third parties treating the system with respect and doing more than quick ports and other B grade crap.

that's why i'm not worried. publishers see how much money NINTENDO is making on the system. they don't think... oh well, only Nintendo can make money! they think... i want me some of that.

Madden sales i think show that the Wii really is bringing new people into gaming rather than just appealing to the people that were brought in by Sony. if it was the sony casual, the type that only buys a coulpe of games a year, games like Madden and GTA, then we'd have seen solid Madden sales. but it's not. the Wii has the Nintendo fan (including the lapsed nintendo fans) who don't really give a crap about Madden, and the new gamers who probably don't give a crap about Madden either at this point.

EA tried to make it appeal to the new gamers with the Mii implimentation, but then marketing forgot to market it.

 

[ksamedi]

Maybe. It's just weird that we haven't heard anything from him though.

He must be ashamed that he's working on a minigame collection.

 

[Farmboy]

Like Red Steel/Rayman? Or Dragon Quest: Swords?

DQ:S is Japan, where the situation is different (esp. DS-wise, which bodes far better for Wii as well). Red Steel and Rayman did sell relatively well (bolstered by being launch titles, of course), though I'd hate for Ubisoft to get the message that Red Steel's quality is 'good enough'. I also have my doubts that Red Steel 2 would be as successful. I'm more hopeful about Raving Rabbids 2, but then that's a minigame collection -- not really what the Wii needs in terms of expanding its library, which is ideally what increased third party support is all about. It's something, but it's been almost a year since launch, and I'm starting to worry about ever seeing a great and successful third party title again (if, indeed, we ever did -- YMMV on whether these Ubisoft games were indeed 'great').

Another example might be Sonic & The Secret Rings -- I personally thought the game was pretty bad, but on the whole its been well received (it certainly beat the crap out of the 360/PS3-installment). Sales weren't particularly hot, though.

How'd you get here from the year 2006?

Well, I guess it's my fault for not clarifying that, since this is an NPD thread, I was referring to Western sales and, predominantly, to Western developers -- although the Japanese developers don't do too well on the DS either in the west, with the exception of Square-Enix and, on occasion and to a much lesser extent, Capcom or Konami. Still, what 2007 games are you referring to that changed everything? Notice that I know these titles exist (as I said in the earlier post) -- they're just scarce. I can think of only a few -- in terms of Western sales, are there more than five?

The DS problem is different of course, in the sense that budgets are less important than good ideas. It's more about having a firm grasp on what works on the platform -- Nintendo has that, third parties are a bit more uneven. On the Wii, however, budget is a factor too -- as well as having a grasp on the hardware and putting in the effort (which is related to budget: effort has a lot to do with development time, and time = money).

 

[Weisheit]

Originally Posted by Joust Williams:

I see a lot of butt-hurt people in here becase Wii sales are to the moon but third parties still don't care about it. And why should they?

I see a lot of butt-hurt people in here because Wii's sales are raping their console of choice, GAFs criteria for winning the "console warz":

Hardware sold>Software sold>Third party software sold

 

[szaromir]

RRR2?

He's working on something else. A while ago a former Ubi Montreal employee said here on neogaf that he's working on BG&E2 after threatening Ubi that he would leave the company if he was forced to work on Ravin Rabbids 2.

 

[Haunted]

RRR2?

He's not working on that.

Hardware sold>Software sold>Third party software sold

:lol so true. If you can't win the argument, shift the discussion to one where you can win, even if it's not as important.

 

[ksamedi]

He's working on something else. A while ago a former Ubi Montreal employee said here on neogaf that he's working on BG&E2 after threatening Ubi that he would leave the company if he was forced to work on Ravin Rabbids 2.

Go Ancel. I knew he was not the type of guy to be doing minigame sequals. The first one was ok for a launch game but thats more than enough rabbits for the Wii.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Originally Posted by Joust Williams:

I see a lot of butt-hurt people in here because Wii's sales are raping their console of choice, GAFs criteria for winning the "console warz":

Hardware sold>Software sold>Third party software sold

Or rather, in the Real World, Wii conquers all (as most understand to be true and infallible) and stellar third party support keeps 360 at the top of the Hi Def pecking order and that pipe dreams like no Blu-Ray and no standard HDD having any significant impact on multiplatform 360 games will not most likely never come to pass.

Or, no, folks are just weally steamed at the Wii making bad times with the wuvvable 360 and they don't want it to get huwt.

 

[AniHawk]

He's working on something else. A while ago a former Ubi Montreal employee said here on neogaf that he's working on BG&E2 after threatening Ubi that he would leave the company if he was forced to work on Ravin Rabbids 2.

Awesome.

Dunno what else to expect from the most badass French Knight that ever lived.

 

[Jokeropia]

Another example might be Sonic & The Secret Rings -- I personally thought the game was pretty bad, but on the whole its been well received (it certainly beat the crap out of the 360/PS3-installment). Sales weren't particularly hot, though.

Actually, it sold pretty well and certainly beat the crap out of the 360/PS3-installments in this respect.

 

[AniHawk]

Go Ancel. I knew he was not the type of guy to be doing minigame sequals. The first one was ok for a launch game but thats more than enough rabbits for the Wii.

I read an interview where he seemed a little enthusiastic, but he had so much more in mind for RRR than what wound up happening (rush it for launch). ...and I think it's possible he knew Ubi had a yearly-update-MP-type-thing in store for the series.

 

[Pureauthor]

Well, I guess it's my fault for not clarifying that, since this is an NPD thread, I was referring to Western sales and, predominantly, to Western developers -- although the Japanese developers don't do too well on the DS either in the west, with the exception of Square-Enix and, on occasion and to a much lesser extent, Capcom or Konami. Still, what 2007 games are you referring to that changed everything? Notice that I know these titles exist (as I said in the earlier post) -- they're just scarce. I can think of only a few -- in terms of Western sales, are there more than five?

The DS problem is different of course, in the sense that budgets are less important than good ideas. It's more about having a firm grasp on what works on the platform -- Nintendo has that, third parties are a bit more uneven. On the Wii, however, budget is a factor too -- as well as having a grasp on the hardware and putting in the effort (which is related to budget: effort has a lot to do with development time, and time = money).

But in general handhelds don't move software well. This has been turned around to a large extent in Japan (not sure 'bout Europe, but Brain Age is still hanging on the charts.), but it hasn't changed in America. Thus this comparison, while true, isn't exactly relevant/valid.

 

[Blimblim]

Maybe. It's just weird that we haven't heard anything from him though.

Don't worry

 

[AniHawk]

Don't worry

Beyond Good & Evil 2 Fall 2008 PS3 and 360 simultaneous release or probably 360 exclusive confirmed maybe.

I just want to see him doing what HE wants to do and not what he's been forced to do. That's what made Rayman, Rayman 2, and BGE so great.

Rayman 2 was sort of my surprise of the year for 1999. Just pure at every fucking turn. The same thing happened in 2003 when I finally gave in to GAF's peer pressure and bought it. I thought the two games were remarkably similar in a way I couldn't put my finger on, and only found out later that it was made by the same guy. I'm now a fan for life. In the scariest way.

 

[gregor7777]

God only knows if it has been asked somewhere in this 38 page mess, but do we have any way of counting the PC sales in the US for Bioshock? Not including Steam of course, IIRC, they never release their numbers.

 

[Farmboy]

The titles released on Wii so far are just rush jobs to get a piece of the Wii pie, it has nothing to do wih how publishers perceive the system, its just that they rushed what could be rushed and they probably still made a profit. I think by the end of 2008 you will see some reall quality from third parties on the Wii, be it casual or hardcore. Good software takes time to make, you cant expect something to sell with only 6 months of dev time (Boogie) unless you have an idea like Brain Training.

I really do hope you're right (since I see a lot of untapped potential in the Wii). But unlike plagiarize, I don't really see the DS as a good precedent. Square-Enix excepted, few third parties have been able to really make the system sing. I love Phoenix Wright, but they're GBA ports (I'm looking forward to #4 though, it might change my mind although I wasn't wild about the extra case in #1). I like the Castlevania's, but they aren't particularly creative and their use of the hardware is 'confused' at best (they also didn't sell well, which could mean Konami's support entering the downward spiral I referred to in my original post). Sega's been hit and miss, although it's been one of the better ones.

One thing's undeniable, though: Western third parties are mostly total suckage on the DS, continuing to this day. I can only hope that's not indicative of what'll happen to Wii. We'll know more by the end of next year, I guess.

EDIT: And why doesn't Resident evil count? It has a chance to hit a million when Capcom was expecting 420k.

Oh, it counts -- and it's a fine way of creating a worthwhile Wii-title with a lower budget and less effort. But if it encourages third parties to focus on upgraded last-gen ports, I'm not sure we should be happy about the precedent it sets. Even if they're handled as well as Capcom handled this one (and most wouldn't be), I'd prefer new titles.

EDIT:

But in general handhelds don't move software well. This has been turned around to a large extent in Japan (not sure 'bout Europe, but Brain Age is still hanging on the charts.), but it hasn't changed in America. Thus this comparison, while true, isn't exactly relevant/valid.

True, but they do keep making games for the thing (because the ROI is still good) and their quality isn't improving at all (I'm talking mainly about Western developers here). I understand that the Wii-situation is quite different, though. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the future of (western) Wii third party support.

 

[DSWii60]

Don't worry

What do you know?!?!?!?!??!!

 

[ksamedi]

Beyond Good & Evil 2 Fall 2008 PS3 and 360 simultaneous release or probably 360 exclusive confirmed maybe.

I just want to see him doing what HE wants to do and not what he's been forced to do. That's what made Rayman, Rayman 2, and BGE so great.

Rayman 2 was sort of my surprise of the year for 1999. Just pure quality oozed out of the screen. The same thing happened in 2003 when I finally gave in to GAF's peer pressure and bought it. I thought the two games were remarkably similar in a way I couldn't put my finger on, and only found out later that it was made by the same guy. I'm now a fan for life. In the scariest way.

I think he's more a Wii type of guy.

 

[AniHawk]

I think he's more a Wii type of guy.

Yeah, he seems to have a sort of leaning towards Nintendo, but Blimblim is more of a 360 type of guy.

 

[Magicpaint]

I like the Castlevania's, but they aren't particularly creative and their use of the hardware is 'confused' at best (they also didn't sell well, which could mean Konami's support entering the downward spiral I referred to in my original post).

Nonsense. Both DoS and PoR exceeded Konami's expectation and thus we're getting a third DS game. Contra 4 is coming up. Downward spiral what?

One thing's undeniable, though: Western third parties are mostly total suckage on the DS, continuing to this day. I can only hope that's not indicative of what'll happen to Wii. We'll know more by the end of next year, I guess.

So is Handheld = Home Console nowadays? I honestly don't know, but it seems as if it is or isn't depending on how it suits one's argument.

 

[AniHawk]

Nonsense. Both DoS and PoR exceeded Konami's expectation and thus we're getting a third DS game. Contra 4 is coming up. Downward spiral what?



So is Handheld = Home Console nowadays? I honestly don't know, but it seems as if it is or isn't depending on how it suits one's argument.

Well he does have a point. Western third parties are pretty good at milking the little girl fanbase on the DS (which was also present on the GBA). But they're pretty fucking clueless on how to milk the hardcore guys. If LucasArts would just release Grim Fandango or Full Throttle I swear to god...

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

Yep, no one here can see the long term. Sony is in the position to start battling back and it started today in Japan. The line has been drawn!

:lol Keep up the good work Tabris !

 

[Jive Turkey]

DAMN IT! The ONE day my internet goes down is NPD day.

So...Any fun meltdowns I should read?

 

[electricpirate]

Beyond Good & Evil 2 Fall 2008 PS3 and 360 simultaneous release or probably 360 exclusive confirmed maybe.

I just want to see him doing what HE wants to do and not what he's been forced to do. That's what made Rayman, Rayman 2, and BGE so great.

Rayman 2 was sort of my surprise of the year for 1999. Just pure at every fucking turn. The same thing happened in 2003 when I finally gave in to GAF's peer pressure and bought it. I thought the two games were remarkably similar in a way I couldn't put my finger on, and only found out later that it was made by the same guy. I'm now a fan for life. In the scariest way.

Beyond Good and evil was the pickup oppurtunity of the century for one of the big three for an exclusive. The game has built this near Mythic following on people who haven't even played it due to the hype of people who have. Get a real sequal, maybe even re-release the first alongside it and you have a potent exclusive.

It's similar to Bioshock, the legendary status of system shock helped propel the game to the top of the sales chart. MS was smart to get even some exclusivity on it while everyone thought it was going to bomb.

 

[Magicpaint]

Well he does have a point. Western third parties are pretty good at milking the little girl fanbase on the DS (which was also present on the GBA). But they're pretty fucking clueless on how to milk the hardcore guys. If LucasArts would just release Grim Fandango or Full Throttle I swear to god...

Oh, I certainly agree that DS support from western parties is shit. But it's always been that way with handhelds (though earlier on, PSP seemed like it could change it, but western support has almost gone down the drain for that system too), consoles tend to fare much better with the western developers/publishers (at least when it comes to creating games where good time, money and effort is sunk into it).

 

[ksamedi]

I really do hope you're right (since I see a lot of untapped potential in the Wii). But unlike plagiarize, I don't really see the DS as a good precedent. Square-Enix excepted, few third parties have been able to really make the system sing. I love Phoenix Wright, but they're GBA ports (I'm looking forward to #4 though, it might change my mind although I wasn't wild about the extra case in #1). I like the Castlevania's, but they aren't particularly creative and their use of the hardware is 'confused' at best (they also didn't sell well, which could mean Konami's support entering the downward spiral I referred to in my original post). Sega's been hit and miss, although it's been one of the better ones.

One thing's undeniable, though: Western third parties are mostly total suckage on the DS, continuing to this day. I can only hope that's not indicative of what'll happen to Wii. We'll know more by the end of next year, I guess.



Oh, it counts -- and it's a fine way of creating a worthwhile Wii-title with a lower budget and less effort. But if it encourages third parties to focus on upgraded last-gen ports, I'm not sure we should be happy about the precedent it sets. Even if they're handled as well as Capcom handled this one (and most wouldn't be), I'd prefer new titles.

EDIT:


True, but they do keep making games for the thing (because the ROI is still good) and their quality isn't improving at all (I'm talking mainly about Western developers here). I understand that the Wii-situation is quite different, though. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the future of (western) Wii third party support.

I think the western handheld scene isn't that good because of the relativly lower software sales of handheld platforms. Still, western support has been improving on the DS, Anno is a great little handheld title, Call of Duty 4 looks good, Bioware is working on the DS, Panzer tactics, BIA, a possible Quake game, The ward, some decent sport efforts and some good younger audiance games.

I think the Wii has had some decent succes with third party titles that were marketed well and actually had some sales potential. All the examples of good selling third party games actually made sense on the system like Tiger (which is a big seller in Europe by the way), Redsteel (great concept, good marketing), Rayman, Sonic, and Resindent evil. None of these games are dumbed down minigames except for Rayman(which was an ok game). The rest of the efforts like a bug filled Madden, ports of mediocre PS2/PSP games, rushed concepts like Boogie and multiplatform games that were designed with 360 specs in mind (Spiderman, Transformers stuff like that) all had no chance of selling to begin with. I think what third parties need to see is that if they want a Wii game to sell, it has to be a significantly better experience with the Wii controller, even better, it shouldn't be possible to make on the 360 without sacrfice in gameplay. Thats what people buy the Wii for. I think there having a hard time with that.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Beyond Good and evil was the pickup oppurtunity of the century for one of the big three for an exclusive. The game has built this near Mythic following on people who haven't even played it due to the hype of people who have. Get a real sequal, maybe even re-release the first alongside it and you have a potent exclusive.

It's similar to Bioshock, the legendary status of system shock helped propel the game to the top of the sales chart. MS was smart to get even some exclusivity on it while everyone thought it was going to bomb.

I don't want to see it go exclusive to any one console, but I do like the way you think!

 

[Cold-Steel]

Except unlike System Shock, Beyond Good and Evil is a terrible game.

 

[lightcrisprefreshing]

What was the end date for August?

 

[AniHawk]

Except unlike System Shock, Beyond Good and Evil is a terrible game.

 

[ksamedi]

Except unlike System Shock, Beyond Good and Evil is a terrible game.

You sir have no taste. BGE > System Shock. But thats for another thread.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Are we seriously comparing Boogie's sales(which was announced, developed and subsequently released in a span of just 6 months) to a well marketed and arguably best version of Madden?

Seriously now.

 

[ksamedi]

Are we seriously comparing Boogie's sales(which was announced, developed and subsequently released in a span of just 6 months) to a well marketed and arguably best version of Madden?

Seriously now.

It's just a simpel excuse for people who dont like to see the Wii on top to troll the system. Dont worry people, your hardcore games wont go anywhere! They fucking sell!

Small note: Boogie will be released on PS2 as well, lets see how that goes.

 

[AniHawk]

Dont worry people, your hardcore games wont go anywhere! They fucking sell!

Or in the case of Warhawk, Ninja Gaiden, Blue Dragon or Failair... they don't.

 

[Shepherd]

What was the end date for August?

Sept 1st.

NPD for the rest of the year. * is a 5 week month.

sep: sep 2 - oct 6*
oct: oct 7 - nov 3
nov: nov 4 - dec 1
dec: dec 2 - jan 5*

 

[gregor7777]

You sir have no taste. BGE > System Shock. But thats for another thread.

No need to rile people up, most of us know you couldn't possibly hold such an asinine opinion, but there may be a Junior or two that took you seriously.

 

[lightcrisprefreshing]

Sept 1st.

NPD for the rest of the year. * is a 5 week month.

sep: sep 2 - oct 6*
oct: oct 7 - nov 3
nov: nov 4 - dec 1
dec: dec 2 - jan 5*

Alright thanks.

 

[ksamedi]

Or in the case of Warhawk, Ninja Gaiden, Blue Dragon or Failair... they don't.

:lol

Notice how the Germans are suddenly liking the Wii.

 

[Haunted]

Don't worry

:O :O :O

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Are we seriously comparing Boogie's sales(which was announced, developed and subsequently released in a span of just 6 months) to a well marketed and arguably best version of Madden?

Seriously now.

You have no idea what's going on, do you?

Zack and Wiki seems like it'll be the litmus test for whether or not real third party support is viable on the Wii.

And seriously, what fucking third party games are so awesome on the DS? I'm looking over my collection and aside from Puzzle Quest, which I've heard the DS version might actually be the worst, I've got FFIV and nothing else. I'm not saying this has anything to do with the Wii, I'd like to know what the hell you guys are talking about in it's own right.

Oh, Phoenix Wright too.

 

[maxmars]

Oh, Phoenix Wright too.

Hotel Dusk?

Worms Armageddon 2? (though somewhat buggy)

Anno 1701?

Just listing some recent releases.

 

[AniHawk]

You have no idea what's going on, do you?

Zack and Wiki seems like it'll be the litmus test for whether or not real third party support is viable on the Wii.

Zack and Wiki is going to bomb so much. So sad...

The $40 pricetag should help it, but the lack of brand recognition right when Guitar Hero III, Smash Bros. and Galaxy hit will just bury it, since I doubt it gets any marketing campaign (my guess is that Capcom's marketing dollars will go to REUC instead).

 

[JudgeN]

So its safe to assume Jean D'arc = bomba?

 

[Neomoto]

Wii is absolutely killing everything hardware sales wise. Incredible, and it just keeps going! Too bad about third party sales but then again, Boogie and Madden Wii aren't exactly premier titles on which you should base conclusions on at all. BioShock did great! Far better than I thought it would. Good sales for MP3 since it whas just 4 days. Hope it continues to sell well in September NPD.

The only 3rd party Wii game gets outsold by an Xbox game. I thought Nintendo said 3rd parties are selling good?

They are, collectivily worldwide LTD though.

So for the top 20

5 360 titles
5 Wii titles
4 DS titles
3 PS2 titles
1 PS3 title
1 Xbox title
1 PSP title

of the 20, 6 are Madden versions (and the only thing that charted for PS3/XBX/PSP)

Don't forget Wii Sports (400.000+ copies of it) since it is a pack-in game and therefore it counts.

 

[Stormbringer]

Zack and Wiki is going to bomb so much. So sad...

The $40 pricetag should help it, but the lack of brand recognition right when Guitar Hero III, Smash Bros. and Galaxy hit will just bury it, since I doubt it gets any marketing campaign (my guess is that Capcom's marketing dollars will go to REUC instead).

Nintendo is publishing it in Europe so I think that it could do pretty well here, at least (given that they will probably push it well enough).

 

[The_Dude]

Don't worry

Don't toy with my emotions...