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[Nemo]

well, had GT5 had a deadline and releaased early november, maybe would have sold the same number, but it would have charted higher and that would have helped the game too. Sony's weird management and desicions made it split and chart lower in november and not charting in december. That is an example of something that a right management would have not allowed.

Are you saying it would sell more as a result of an NPD chart?

Because that's what this reads like. You even specifically say it would sell the same number, so I'm not really sure why making it chart (but still sell the same number, only earlier) would be good management

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Please spare us the ignorance-fueled lol emoticons.

I don't see how it's ignorant, the statement is spot on, and I do find it funny. I thought for sure those two would have outsold at LEAST Halo Reach.

 

[Metalmurphy]

13 pages and people still talking about Gran Turismo 5. That´s a fail if i ever seen one.

Hating Gran Turismo is one of these things that enter into the "I thought it was just me" category

Just like "Loving Kirby" and "Loving metroid". I really thought it was just me.

It's not just you, but it's not everybody either...

And 5M+ for Prologue, +5.5M in 12 days is hardly "a fail"

 

[BoilersFan23]

Even if GT5 sold only one copy, as long as that copy was me, that's all that matters. That game is amazing and pretty much offers infinite content. I won't need another GT for another half a decade. Of course from a business standpoint for Sony, it was definitely a giant mess up. I'm glad WoW charted so high. It's not the best expansion ever, but it still brought back a bit of magic to the game that I thought was gone.

Why would GT be a mess? GT has NOT been a big seller in the U.S. since GT3. GT sales have mostly been big in Europe. Most Sony first party games are more region specific, where God of War sells big in NA, GT in Europe, etc.

 

[FrankT]

I don't see how it's ignorant, the statement is spot on, and I do find it funny. I thought for sure those two would have outsold at LEAST Halo Reach.

Reach is likely somewhere over 4M at this point that is tall order at retail even for WoW(US mind you). Especially so since it's 3 overall for the year.

 

[EviLore]

I don't see how it's ignorant, the statement is spot on, and I do find it funny. I thought for sure those two would have outsold at LEAST Halo Reach.

New. Physical. Retail. Only.

 

[Metalmurphy]

I don't see how it's ignorant, the statement is spot on, and I do find it funny. I thought for sure those two would have outsold at LEAST Halo Reach.

You don't joke around when PC games are involved.

 

[Road]

Not great since they spent most of the year $100 cheaper.

Perhaps.

The 360 had its price lowered to $199, $299 and $399 in September 2008 and sold 4.74 million that year.

In 2009, it remained stable selling 4.77 million, but it was down Set + Oct + Nov + Dec from the year before.

In 2010, the 360 sells 6.77 million and has its best year yet.



The PS3 had its base price lowered to $299 in September 2009 and sold 4.33 million that year.

In 2010, it remained stable selling 4.33 million, but it was down Set + Oct + Nov + Dec from the year before.

In 2011,...

Spoiler

No, I don't believe the same will happen. For instance, in the last 4 months of 2010 the PS3 was down 20%, while the 360 was down 9% in that time frame of 2009.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't see how it's ignorant, the statement is spot on, and I do find it funny. I thought for sure those two would have outsold at LEAST Halo Reach.

The statement isn't at all relevant to two titles that are most likely going to sell the vast majority of copies through DD.

 

[tzare]

The problem is a PS3 GT game just naturally takes a long time to create. Like I posted many times before, Kaz even said this himself:


http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2007/12/kazunori-yamauchi-dishes-more-gran-turismo-5-details.ars

When it takes 6 times longer to model a car on PS3 when compared to PS2, that explains longer development time there. It wasn't really a mis-managed project, just that developing a car takes a really long time and expensive.

Also, GT3 was a huge game because there were not many simulation racers, not many great games on PS2 at the time, so it became a big thing. GT4 from what I remember didn't even sell half of what GT3 did, and GT PSP didn't really sell in NA. GT still continues to remain popular in Europe, which Sony pretty much knows themselves that's where GT sales come from.

then they should have focused on less cars and less content. Like Forza. And leave all that work for GT6. Or ask for help or outsource. I dunno, i'm not expert. GTPrologue was cool, nice looking, it only needed more content , few extra cars, more tracks and i am sure the game would have sold well.

oh, and i love GT5 btw

Because that's what this reads like. You even specifically say it would sell the same number, so I'm not really sure why making it chart (but still sell the same number, only earlier) would be good management

my apologies for my bad english.
I mean, sometimes the looks are as important as the content. Charting could have been a good 'free' advertisement and maybe attrackt more potential buyers. Maybe.

 

[BowieZ]

So when do you guys think Wii will reach Reggie's 45 million "we'll announce Wii 2" ballpark?

It has about 10 million to go.

2007 - 6.3M
2008 - 10.2M
2009 - 9.6
2010 - 7.1M
2011 - ???
2012 - ...

Is there ANY scenario under which it could reach 45 million before E³ 2012??

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I don't see how it's ignorant, the statement is spot on, and I do find it funny. I thought for sure those two would have outsold at LEAST Halo Reach.

In what universe would that make sense for US retail sales?

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

The statement isn't at all relevant to two titles that are most likely going to sell the vast majority of copies through DD.

What makes you think those two titles are going to sell mostly through DD?

New. Physical. Retail. Only.

So damage control has already ensued?

I guess I would see this as a relevant argument if there was some backing showing that most of the sales for these were digital.

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

- N
- PS3 just plain bad, there can be no spin with GT5 (what horrible mis-managemnet) not even placing top 10! What a clusterfuck of a generation it's been for Sony. Maybe just maybe next year with all the heavy hitters coming out, we'll see growth... these titles deserve to sell more.

I'd love to have a business model that allowed me to sell 1.2 million units at $299 a pop: put things in perspective. Arm-chair quarterbacking business solvency based on said company's third place standing in a competitive market is absurd. Sure PS3 is trailing the competition but its not as if the sky is falling and they put out an absolute flop that's selling at Sega Saturn levels.

 

[iceatcs]

Also, $100 cheaper for most of the year.

That was 2009.

I don't think they have cut further in 2010

 

[Opiate]

I don't see how it's ignorant, the statement is spot on, and I do find it funny. I thought for sure those two would have outsold at LEAST Halo Reach.

Halo is:

1) US Centric
2) Sold exclusively through retail

Starcraft and WoW are:

1) Worldwide centric (I'm not even sure where to put the "center" for these games. Possibly asia? In any case, it's not the US. We have figures for WoW, and the EU and Asia are BOTH stronger markets for that game).
2) Sold largely, if not primarily, through digital distribution, which is still not factored in by NPD.

According to NPD, Portal has sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 0 copies on PC. Does that seem likely to you?

 

[Lonely1]

What makes you think those two titles are going to sell mostly through DD?

Realities of the PC market?

 

[DaBuddaDa]

2007 - 6.3M
2008 - 10.2M
2009 - 9.6
2010 - 7.1M
2011 - ???
2012 - ...

Is there ANY scenario under which it could reach 45 million before E³ 2012??

2011 - 7M
2012 Jan-May - 3M

? Extremely unlikely, but possible, especially with a price drop.

 

[_Alkaline_]

DKCR on reflection might even be my GOTY, so for it to hold strong and very very likely have a better second month is a fantastic sight. This is no small matter - Donkey Kong virtually became a dead franchise last generation. Nintendo's decision to appeal to nostalgia was sly but genius, and the game is so much more than that anyway.

GT5 is like the opposite. Sony's biggest franchise and it's pulling out terribly mediocre in sales in any place that isn't called Europe/Australia. Granted its strong presence there will keep it from being a disaster, but it's fair to say that it's been completely underwhelming in the US and Japan. Not to mention the ridiculoous development cycle and complete mishandling of its release. It's been a trainwreck.

To me, as good as the Wii and DS performances were (and Wii software was very, very good this time around, and two third party hits would be encouraging) the real 'winner' was Microsoft. They have essentially revitalised their platform as Kinect will help ensure that it has a few more years of life in it. It's the only console to go up YoY, and even more impressive is that it just had its best christmas - 6 years into its lifespan.

 

[Guy Legend]

PS3 isn't that far behind XB360 world wide. PS3 won the format war for them. They system has the technological equipment to last for a long time (ie won't be getting outdated anytime soon). The system isn't a massive failure has some portray with their comments.

GT5 looks like it has underperformed in NA, but worldwide sales overall will be again very high. The games tumultuous development time was bad, the disorganized release was even worse.

$599 hurt Sony, especially in North America. Other than that, they haven't done much wrong. Instead of bashing Sony, give credit to Microsoft for making the Xbox a big hit this generation, especially in North America.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Realities of the PC market?

Yet of any game I would think THOSE would be the most likely that people would want the physical form of, perhaps I'm just old school.

 

[FrankT]

So when do you guys think Wii will reach Reggie's 45 million "we'll announce Wii 2" ballpark?

It has about 10 million to go.

2007 - 6.3M
2008 - 10.2M
2009 - 9.6
2010 - 7.1M
2011 - ???
2012 - ...

Is there ANY scenario under which it could reach 45 million before E³ 2012??

Might be close. I expect another Wii by fall 2012. Who knows though.

 

[antonz]

Well the question is this if we get Wii2 in 2012 when do they announce it this year?

I mean Iwata could tease it at GDC since his Keynote is about the past and future of gaming. He could tie the future togeather with 3DS and Wii2

 

[The Technomancer]

What makes you think those two titles are going to sell mostly through DD?

They're....major PC exclusives? I mean, SC2 maybe, but that's been out for ages, and why would there be a strong drive for a physical disc copy of a WoW expansion?

 

[Metalmurphy]

Halo is:

1) US Centric
2) Sold exclusively through retail

Starcraft and WoW are:

1) Worldwide centric (I'm not even sure where to put the "center" for these games. Possibly asia? In any case, it's not the US. We have figures for WoW, and the EU and Asia are BOTH stronger markets for that game).
2) Sold largely, if not primarily, through digital distribution, which is still not factored in by NPD.

According to NPD, Portal has sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 0 copies on PC. Does that seem likely to you?

Portal is a different story imo. It's a steam game and it came with the orange box. I really don't believe more copies of Starcraft were sold through DD then retail. I can totally see that happening with WoW though.

 

[Why For?]

then they should have focused on less cars and less content. Like Forza. And leave all that work for GT6. Or ask for help or outsource. I dunno, i'm not expert. GTPrologue was cool, nice looking, it only needed more content , few extra cars, more tracks and i am sure the game would have sold well.

oh, and i love GT5 btw my apologies for my bad english.
I mean, sometimes the looks are as important as the content. Charting could have been a good 'free' advertisement and maybe attrack more buyers. Maybe.

GT6 needs needs radical changes outisde it's core mechanics:

- UI revamp

- Less cars. Focus on quality over quantitiy, this horse shit 87 Skylines and 65 Lancers that only .01% of the userbase bothers with is ridiculous

- Online overhaul

- Real damage

Changing those 4 alonse I feel would make a big difference. Cutting the car list dramatically will help with both cost and time.

 

[Haunted]

Maybe GT5 is 11th and the 10th place sold a ridiculously high amount of units.

Yet of any game I would think THOSE would be the most likely that people would want the physical form of, perhaps I'm just old school.

Acceptable alternative assessments would be "out of touch", "10 years behind" or "clueless".

But hey, it's no problem. We're always glad to inform and educate people unfamiliar with the market.

 

[BoilersFan23]

then they should have focused on less cars and less content. Like Forza. And leave all that work for GT6. Or ask for help or outsource. I dunno, i'm not expert. GTPrologue was cool, nice looking, it only needed more content , few extra cars, more tracks and i am sure the game would have sold well.

oh, and i love GT5 btw

If they would have went with less content, people would have complained about the game not having as much content as GT4 leaving some disappointed. Some felt that way about GT3 when compared to GT2. That's why its difficult to do.

That didn't help them at all this year, and they had a few big ones.

The thing is, most PS3 exclusives or big games came out in the first half of the year. There was a BIG interests in PS3 in NA throughout the first half of the year. Unfortunately, there was a shortage of PS3 consoles when Heavy Rain, FFXIII, MLB 10: The Show, GoWIII, etc. came out. I know that for certain because why was GameStop taking preorders on future PS3 console shipments, and people were coming into stores constantly looking for a PS3 console (but sold out)? That I feel was their biggest mistake in NA because if they would have been able to meet demand, they could have continued to keep momentum going instead of having people considering the competition (due to not finding a PS3).

$599 hurt Sony, especially in North America. Other than that, they haven't done much wrong. Instead of bashing Sony, give credit to Microsoft for making the Xbox a big hit this generation, especially in North America.

Even if PS3 would have come out cheaper than that price in North America, I kind of doubt it would have beaten 360. Last gen, the PS2 got off to a huge lead due to lack of competition. Once the popularity of Halo kicked in, the Xbox brand was becoming the popular brand among many people. I remember Xbox performing better than PS2 in 2004 if I remember correctly, but in NA only (but then MS did pull the plug on Xbox in 2005 to move onto the next gen).

All I'm trying to say is that the PlayStation brand in NA was definitely not as strong in the middle of the PS2 lifecycle compared to the middle of the PS1 lifecycle. Xbox brand kept gaining in NA so there's no surprise 360 just sells better in NA. Throughout Europe is a bit different.

 

[Opiate]

What makes you think those two titles are going to sell mostly through DD?



So damage control has already ensued?

I guess I would see this as a relevant argument if there was some backing showing that most of the sales for these were digital.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2057...nloads_dramatically_outpace_retail_sales.html

In the first half of 2010, DD accounted for approximately 60% of all game sales on the PC. I would assume that would only climb in the second half of the year, as DD rapidly consumes the market.

Please stop with the baiting. Anyone claiming WoW -- World of Warcraft -- is underperforming in any form can't have a firm grasp of the market. If you'd like to claim that WoW and SC are special and different and for some reason are far less likely to be downloaded, please provide some evidence.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

They're....major PC exclusives? Do you actually pay attention to the PC market at all?

PC exclusive and DD don't necessitate each other.

Had I bought either of those games (prefer DoW over SC and quit WoW) I would have ordered the physical copies of both, as I said before though, I'm probably the exception.


I assume none of you have the numbers on DD then?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2057...nloads_dramatically_outpace_retail_sales.html

In the first half of 2010, DD accounted for approximately 60% of all game sales on the PC. I would assume that would only climb in the second half of the year, as DD rapidly consumes the market.

Please stop with the baiting. Anyone claiming WoW -- World of Warcraft -- is underperforming in any form can't have a firm grasp of the market.

I was simply astounded that Halo outperformed it, not that it underperformed.

 

[Lonely1]

Portal is a different story imo. It's a steam game and it came with the orange box. I really don't believe more copies of Starcraft were sold through DD then retail. I can totally see that happening with WoW though.

Perhaps not more, but a significant amount?

 

[Wallach]

Halo is:

1) US Centric
2) Sold exclusively through retail

Starcraft and WoW are:

1) Worldwide centric (I'm not even sure where to put the "center" for these games. Possibly asia? In any case, it's not the US. We have figures for WoW, and the EU and Asia are BOTH stronger markets for that game).
2) Sold largely, if not primarily, through digital distribution, which is still not factored in by NPD.

According to NPD, Portal has sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 0 copies on PC. Does that seem likely to you?

Actually, I'm not sure WoW's market is bigger in the EU than it is in NA. Still, we know Cataclysm is pretty close to 5 million (if not already beyond that by now) and it launched in December worldwide.

 

[timetokill]

My guess is we see a GT6 sooner rather than later, and it's basically GT5.5... some new tracks and things but not a huge update. They'll want to try and get what they can out of that development time.

 

[truly101]

We're never going to stop this "year of the PS3" bs are we? We've got maybe 2-3 years left in this gen and it is ALWAYS going to be in 3rd place in NA and fighting for the scraps of 2nd place with MS in other territories. The only thing that is likely in 2011 is that they'' most likely hit that 20 million mark, a new precedent for a 3rd place console, but it will still be behind the other two. This has long been decided, I'm not sure why anyone acts surprised anymore

 

[Metalmurphy]

GT6 needs needs radical changes outisde it's core mechanics:

- UI revamp revamp is a harsh word. It only needs some minor changes.

- Less cars. Focus on quality over quantitiy, this horse shit 87 Skylines and 65 Lancers that only .01% of the userbase bothers with is ridiculous No. If you're asking for less cars then you just don't get what GT is...

- Online overhaul Online in GT5 is brilliant.

- Real damage Meh... mechanical damage is there and works, don't really give a shit about broken mirrors and neither does any sim racer.

Changing those 4 alonse I feel would make a big difference. Cutting the car list dramatically will help with both cost and time.

Also you gotta explain me how cutting down content that's already been done is gonna shorten the development time.

 

[Fredescu]

Yet of any game I would think THOSE would be the most likely that people would want the physical form of, perhaps I'm just old school.

Both games are extremely online focused and both games allowed pre loads prior to release. The fanbase for these games would rather take the option that allowed them to have the game sooner. A shitty cardboard box is meaningless. I'm not going to make any claims as to which method sold more, but DD would have made up a substantial portion of both games sales.

 

[ntropy]

Euphemism for "out of touch", "10 years behind" or "clueless".

better

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Both games are extremely online focused and both games allowed pre loads prior to release. The fanbase for these games would rather take the option that allowed them to have the game sooner. A shitty cardboard box is meaningless. I'm not going to make any claims as to which one sold more, but DD would have made up a substantial portion of both games sales.

See, a person like me who bought both would have got special additions, which would be physical, I realize that's not the majority though.

Still a number accompanying the DD sales of both would be "nice."

 

[Metalmurphy]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2057...nloads_dramatically_outpace_retail_sales.html

In the first half of 2010, DD accounted for approximately 60% of all game sales on the PC. I would assume that would only climb in the second half of the year, as DD rapidly consumes the market.

Please stop with the baiting. Anyone claiming WoW -- World of Warcraft -- is underperforming in any form can't have a firm grasp of the market. If you'd like to claim that WoW and SC are special and different and for some reason are far less likely to be downloaded, please provide some evidence.

That's an unfair analysis since it takes into account games that are ONLY sold through DD, bloating the %.

 

[Road]

I'm sure Sony and PD will learn from their mistakes from GT5. It seems like a software management and communication issue.

:lol :lol

 

[Fredescu]

See, a person like me who bought both would have got special additions, which would be physical, I realize that's not the majority though.

I don't know about Cataclysm, but the SC2 special editions were extremely limited and sold out long before release. It's not physically possible for those to be "the majority".

 

[Opiate]

PC exclusive and DD don't necessitate each other.

Had I bought either of those games (prefer DoW over SC and quit WoW) I would have ordered the physical copies of both, as I said before though, I'm probably the exception.


I assume none of you have the numbers on DD then?

Obviously we don't. We provided the best evidence available: that most of the PC market is DD now. Obviously if you more than halve a game's sales at retail, it's going to look comparatively mediocre. WoW could sell 8 million copies in the US alone and still clock in under Halo with these conditions.

I was simply astounded that Halo outperformed it, not that it underperformed.

Halo almost certainly won't, long term, world wide, digital distribution included. There are 12 million WoW subscribers worldwide, 5 million have upgraded, and most (the rest? even more?) will ultimately follow suit. No Halo game has pushed significantly over 10 million, and it doesn't appear that Halo reach will best Halo 3.

 

[I'm an expert]

Why would GT be a mess? GT has NOT been a big seller in the U.S. since GT3. GT sales have mostly been big in Europe. Most Sony first party games are more region specific, where God of War sells big in NA, GT in Europe, etc.

You are correct, and living in Japan I know how much of a long burn the GT series is here as well. This is not a game that really comes out guns'a slingin. Still..you can't deny that the handling of the development time and delays, and the overall marketing for GT5 was not deserved for of such a 'high profile game'.

 

[user_nat]

Yet of any game I would think THOSE would be the most likely that people would want the physical form of, perhaps I'm just old school.

How is an expansion pack to an MMO the kind of game you would want to own on disc?

 

[Sykra]

That's an unfair analysis since it takes into account games that are ONLY sold through DD, bloating the %.

In any case we know that total WoW sales are at 5.5mil, which makes DD close to 50% on the game, no reason not to think that starcraft didn't have the same %.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

I don't know about Cataclysm, but the SC2 special editions were extremely limited and sold out long before release. It's not physically possible for those to be "the majority".

Yeah, still though, I wonder if DD sales (even with that article talking about 60% of sales) if those games would have passed the top 3, I would imagine they would land in the top 10 though.

How is an expansion pack to an MMO the kind of game you would want to own on disc?

It had a LE/SE yes? Art book and all that jazz?

 

[_Alkaline_]

PS3 isn't that far behind XB360 world wide. PS3 won the format war for them. They system has the technological equipment to last for a long time (ie won't be getting outdated anytime soon). The system isn't a massive failure has some portray with their comments.

Sales wise? No, it's not a failure.

But we're talking about a brand that basically went from first (and by a considerable amount) to third in an instant. Sony fucked up, big time, and in terms of mindshare it has definitely been a massive failure.

 

[tzare]

If they would have went with less content, people would have complained about the game not having as much content as GT4 leaving some disappointed. Some felt that way about GT3 when compared to GT2. That's why its difficult to do.

of course. But maybe i am too bored and thinking too much today , but i think everyone in the gaming space has seen PS3 being in trouble since launch, and PD could have helped, in fact i think GTP was launched because of that, and despite some peple being disappointed with less content i think it could have been the better desicion. And the final result is many people disappointed with GTP, and waiting too much for the final game. I know a few that lost interest in the game because it never came.
I think today's gaming business is very different than psone and ps2 era, and if you do not make the right decisions with business in mind, you are screwed.

 

[Kenka]

Maybe GT5 is 11th and the 10th place sold a ridiculously high amount of units.

If you mean cumulative plateform SKU, then definitely no. Kinect Sports, Dance Central and uDraw outsold it. It's #14 at best (and I wouldn't personally bet my shirt on it).

 

[Opiate]

That's an unfair analysis since it takes into account games that are ONLY sold through DD, bloating the %.

Sure. It's the best evidence we've got though, and the evidence suggests a huge portion of games are purchased online on the PC.

The shoe is now firmly on the other foot: if you have evidence that WoW or SC significantly underperformed on digital distribution channels, please provide it.