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[Metalmurphy]

In any case we know that total WoW sales are at 5.5mil, which makes DD close to 50% on the game, no reason not to think that starcraft didn't have the same %.

WoW is an MMO. People are already online, already have their credit cards tied to the account. It's easy to purchase and update. Apples to oranges imo.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Sure. It's the best evidence we've got though, and the evidence suggests a huge portion of games are purchased online on the PC.

The shoe is now firmly on the other foot: if you have evidence that WoW or SC significantly underperformed on digital distribution channels, please provide it.

I don't think anyone is making that claim, however, those claiming the overall sales were better than what's shown (especially if you think it breaks into the top 3) are the ones who need to provide the burden of proof.

 

[JGS]

Its still pretty beast, although not as insane as last year.

From the blog:

"The Nintendo Wii business looks increasingly like a gift purchase business, which means they will have to have a price cut in order to sustain it during non-gift-giving seasons," said John Taylor, managing director of Arcadia Investments.

So January numbers should be about 10 unless the Wii gets a price cut.

 

[Why For?]

Also you gotta explain me how cutting down content that's already been done is gonna shorten the development time.

I DO know what GT is.

But times change, tastes change and markets change. Hell, your own userbase can change.

As BoilersFan23 mentioned, GT3 supposedly had less content than 2 and yet sold amazingly. History has shown us this gen more than any other that streamlining your product usually results in better sales.

Who is talking about cutting existing content?

I'm going to assume, given PD's MO, that they're planning let's say 200 or so premium cars for GT6, and they'lll carry over whatever is in 5 to use in 6.

Instead of 200, make it 100 and choose the cars more carefully. Maybe PD should invest some time and money in research into which cars are wanted?

Use the website and do surveys. Get information from the existing userbase, find out what they want. They might find out that no one is touching Skylines anymore, so all of a suden they can stop creating 87 of them in every future version of Gran Turismo.

This is all hypothetical of course but you see what I'm getting at yeah?

 

[Road]

So mods, will we still get some info tonight ?

One thing that struck me :

“Nintendo has sold more game systems than anyone else for five years running,” said Charlie Scibetta, Nintendo of America’s senior director of Corporate Communications. “Of the quarter billion hardware systems sold in the United States during the past 10 years, Nintendo sold more than half. We look forward to bringing fun new experiences to consumers when Nintendo 3DS launches in March.”

This includes the entire PS2 reign. Holy shit.

Nintendo (Wii, NDS, GBA, GCN) - ~130 million
Sony (PS2, PS3, PSP) ~80 million
MS (XBX, 360) ~40 million

Something like that.

 

[FrankT]

From the blog:


So January should numbers should be about 10 unless the Wii gets a price cut.

$179 all over the place so we'll see. Though I kind of do agree with the statement as it was down big time before the holidays. Fake price cut and the holidays saved it.

 

[Kenka]

I don't think anyone is making that claim, however, those claiming the overall sales were better than what's shown (especially if you think it breaks into the top 3) are the ones who need to provide the burden of proof.

Need a hand ?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...e_Sales_Were_Digital_In_Last_Three_Months.php

December 17, 2010

NPD: 29% Of U.S. Game Sales Were Digital In Last Three Months

An average of 29 percent of games acquired in the past three months in the U.S. were obtained digitally, as consumers have ever more ways to download game content, according to a recent survey from market research firm NPD Group.

and no, DLC is not included. We're talking about fully fledged games.

 

[jambo]

WoW is an MMO. People are already online, already have their credit cards tied to the account. It's easy to purchase and update. Apples to oranges imo.

And SC2 is a massively online game that is available on the same DD system as WoW, with the same easy to purchase-ness.

 

[Opiate]

Yeah, still though, I wonder if DD sales (even with that article talking about 60% of sales) if those games would have passed the top 3, I would imagine they would land in the top 10 though.

Maybe not, though. Again, there is another significant factor working against PC games here: that PC gaming's weakest markets are Japan and the US. It does much better in China, Korea, Europe, and a large swathe of developing markets (Brazil, etc).

By contrast, the US is, by a wide margin, Halo's strongest market. It would be like looking at Fifa Soccer sales in Europe and concluding that Soccer -- and the Playstation 3, which the franchise sells best on -- are dominating the market (not that either do terribly, mind you, just that they would look disproportionately good based on the perspective).

 

[EviLore]

I don't think anyone is making that claim, however, those claiming the overall sales were better than what's shown are the ones who need to provide the burden of proof.

One anecdotal example of a person buying Cata digitally, then? That's a tough one.

 

[desh]

How is an expansion pack to an MMO the kind of game you would want to own on disc?

Obviously, you're not old school.

 

[tzare]

I DO know what GT is.

But times change, tastes change and markets change. Hell, your own userbase can change.

As BoilersFan23 mentioned, GT3 supposedly had less content than 2 and yet sold amazingly. History has shown us this gen more than any other that streamlining your product usually results in better sales.

Who is talking about cutting existing content?

I'm going to assume, given PD's MO, that they're planning let's say 200 or so premium cars for GT6, and they'lll carry over whatever is in 5 to use in 6.

Instead of 200, make it 100 and choose the cars more carefully. Maybe PD should invest some time and money in research into which cars are wanted?

Use the website and do surveys. Get information from the existing userbase, find out what they want. They might find out that no one is touching Skylines anymore, so all of a suden they can stop creating 87 of them in every future version of Gran Turismo.

This is all hypothetical of course but you see what I'm getting at yeah?

Yeah.they need the management side of western developers to help them focus. That and the great talent at PD could make an awesome GT6 game. And in a fraction of the time they previously needed.

 

[Nikashi]

One anecdotal example of a person buying Cata digitally, then? That's a tough one.

I purchased it digitally!

YOU HAVE MY SWORD!

 

[Haunted]

better

I couldn't pass up the opportunity of a good alliteration.

I don't think anyone is making that claim, however, those claiming the overall sales were better than what's shown (especially if you think it breaks into the top 3) are the ones who need to provide the burden of proof.

Are you saying these games sold zero digital copies?

 

[Opiate]

I don't think anyone is making that claim, however, those claiming the overall sales were better than what's shown (especially if you think it breaks into the top 3) are the ones who need to provide the burden of proof.

If you are arguing that the sales are not "Better than what's shown," then you are by definition arguing that it underperformed digitally. In fact, you are arguing that it sold ~0 copies digitally. By contrast, Halo Reach did, in fact, sell 0 copies digitally, as you could only buy it at retail. 100% of its sales are recorded.

How much better did WoW do, with DD included? Gosh, I don't know. Again, I'm not convinced it would have bested Halo, as the US is Halo's strongest market while it is WoW's weakest. But would WoW have been much closer? Yes.

Let me put this another way: virtually no one but you is surprised or amazed that Halo beat WoW at retail in the United States. We are all, instead, arguing that you aren't looking at this the right way.

 

[Kenka]

Nintendo (Wii, NDS, GBA, GCN) - ~130 million
Sony (PS2, PS3, PSP) ~80 million
MS (XBX, 360) ~40 million

Something like that.

I think you're overestimating GBA and underestimating Xbox but I see the point. Thank you.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Need a hand ?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...e_Sales_Were_Digital_In_Last_Three_Months.php



and no, DLC is not included. We're talking about fully fledged games.

That doesn't really prove any of the questions at hand, also from that article

But PC games weren't the only growth contributor. NPD said 42 percent of digital purchasers bought games through app stores or cell phone carriers.

 

[Metalmurphy]

I DO know what GT is.

But times change, tastes change and markets change. Hell, your own userbase can change.

As BoilersFan23 mentioned, GT3 supposedly had less content than 2 and yet sold amazingly. History has shown us this gen more than any other that streamlining your product usually results in better sales.

Who is talking about cutting existing content?

I'm going to assume, given PD's MO, that they're planning let's say 200 or so premium cars for GT6, and they'lll carry over whatever is in 5 to use in 6.

Instead of 200, make it 100 and choose the cars more carefully. Maybe PD should invest some time and money in research into which cars are wanted?

Use the website and do surveys. Get information from the existing userbase, find out what they want. They might find out that no one is touching Skylines anymore, so all of a suden they can stop creating 87 of them in every future version of Gran Turismo.

This is all hypothetical of course but you see what I'm getting at yeah?

Yes, that's true, GT3 had less content then 2. But so did GT5 compared to GT4. If you think about it there's really only ~230 new cars, the rest is legacy content, and that includes some tracks. And I am SOOOO glad they made that decision.

But GT4 however had the most cars in any GT game and you can expect to GT6 to be similar. They're developments methods are pretty much similar. New engine, less content, but the hard part is done and it'll be easier to make content for it now.

And SC2 is a massively online game that is available on the same DD system as WoW, with the same easy to purchase-ness.

Not to the same costumers base... the ones that already do have everything ready.

 

[MYE]

I'm so glad Epic Mickey hit the top 10! Highly deserved!

Fuck yeah

 

[user_nat]

Halo Reach did, in fact, sell 0 copies digitally, as you could only buy it at retail. 100% of its sales are recorded.

Except the ones in the hardware bundle.

So more like 99%

 

[FrankT]

Need a hand ?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...e_Sales_Were_Digital_In_Last_Three_Months.php



and no, DLC is not included. We're talking about fully fledged games.

Through consoles, PC, phones, ect. Yea I could easily see that.

 

[The Technomancer]

One anecdotal example of a person buying Cata digitally, then? That's a tough one.

Technomancer
yo ******, anecdotal evidence time
Tech's WoW playing friend
?
Technomancer
how many people do you know online who bought Cataclysm throuhg DD?
Tech's Friend
Well
I know I did lol
Technomancer
really? thought you went midnight launch
Tech's Friend
Nah
I'd say at least a good 40:60 split
I mean a TON of people bought DD so they could play the moment the server was up
Anyone on the west coast who was playing when servers came up had to of bought DD in order to do it

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

If you are arguing that the sales are not "Better than what's shown," then you are by definition arguing that it underperformed digitally. In fact, you are arguing that it sold ~0 copies digitally.

Halo Reach did, in fact, sell 0 copies digitally, as you could only buy it at retail. 100% of its sales are recorded.

How much better did WoW do? Gosh, I don't know. Again, I'm not convinced it would have bested Halo, as the US is Halo's strongest market and the US is WoW's weakest. But would it have been much closer? Yes.

Let me put this another way: virtually no one but you is surprised or amazed that Halo beat WoW at retail in the United States.

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about digital sales, you PC guys are. I'm saying it's doubtful to me that DD sales would bump either of those games into the top 3, but I would imagine they would bump into the top 10.

You're second statement is what I'm saying, and I agree.

 

[apana]

Then how have you seemingly made up your mind that The Last Guardian is going to even be good?

Great developer and new concepts. I'm not saying that the past has zero value, just we shouldn't place so much emphasis on it. People can break out of or change old patterns, at least that's my hope.

 

[Haunted]

Yes, that's true, GT3 had less content then 2. But so did GT5 compared to GT4. If you think about it there's really only ~230 new cars, the rest is legacy content, and that includes some tracks. And I am SOOOO glad they made that decision.

But GT4 however had the most cars in any GT game and you can expect to GT6 to be similar. They're developments methods are pretty much similar. New engine, less content, but the hard part is done and it'll be easier to make content for it now.

GT6 doesn't need more cars. It needs more premium cars. I for one hope they replace the PS2 models with current generation quality instead of adding new premium cars while keeping the PS2 models around just so marketing can trumpet lines like "now with 1200 cars! more than ever before!".


edit: or they can keep the PS2 cars around but enable a "premium only" mode so I don't have to see the fuckers.

 

[Opiate]

You're second statement is what I'm saying, and I agree.

No one argued with that in the first place, and I can genuinely say you don't understand the market if you honestly thought that WoW or SCII would beat Halo at retail in the US.

We were not arguing that WoW beat Halo at retail in the US. We have been arguing that you don't understand the market if you think that's a relevant comparison.

 

[Guardian Bob]

PS3 deserved more sales.

 

[jambo]

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about digital sales, you PC guys are. I'm saying it's doubtful to me that DD sales would bump either of those games into the top 3, but I would imagine they would bump into the top 10.

 

[Metalmurphy]

GT6 doesn't need more cars. It needs more premium cars. I for one hope they replace the PS2 models with current generation quality instead of adding new premium cars while keeping the PS2 models around just so marketing can trumpet lines like "now with 1200 cars! more than ever before!".

Well, when I said more content, I meant "new" one. And yes, that includes standards upgraded to premium, something Kaz already said will be happening. I just hope they put the oldies on the top of the list, would love to drive this baby with cockpit view :lol

But they'll obviously be adding new "new" ones as well.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

No one argued with that in the first place, and I can genuinely say you don't understand the market if you honestly thought that WoW or SCII would beat Halo at retail in the US.

We were not arguing that WoW beat Halo at retail in the US. We have been arguing that you don't understand the market if you think that's a relevant comparison.

I know far more people that play WoW than Halo, also as a Halo fan I see Reach as more or less bombing, I sincerely thought it would under perform in 2010 as a whole.

 

[demosthenes]

No real system sellers? Really? The revisionist history is astonishing :lol I remember when every first party PS3 title was a sure-fire system seller.

Now people are debating whether GT5 was profitable. Amazing.

Good post :lol

Can't stand seeing crap like that.

 

[Why For?]

Yes, that's true, GT3 had less content then 2. But so did GT5 compared to GT4. If you think about it there's really only ~230 new cars, the rest is legacy content, and that includes some tracks. And I am SOOOO glad they made that decision.

But GT4 however had the most cars in any GT game and you can expect to GT6 to be similar. They're developments methods are pretty much similar. New engine, less content, but the hard part is done and it'll be easier to make content for it now.


Not to the same costumers base... the ones that already do have everything ready.

GT turned a lot of my friends into Sony fanboys ever since GT1.

The only thing I ever heard them talk about what the tuning up of the car. They loved being able to generally pick the car they owned and tune the shit out of it without using real money, and 'drive it for real'.

This aspect of GT never has to leave. But why have soooooooooooo many cars? It's just not necessary. There's no reason GT6 couldn't be great with a total of say 300 cars. No reason whatsoever.

PD just needs to do some legitimate research into what the userbase wants. Given Europe is now the no.1consumer of GT, why is the car list so Japan-centric? Cut the driftwood and focus on great road cars. You obviously still need the Japanese tuner cars, but there's no need to have:

Skyline R32
Skyline R32 B-Spec
Skyline R32 B Spec II
Skyline R33
Skyline R33 etc. etc.

Do your research, find out which cars were the most popular and cut it down to the 3 or 4 most popular Skylines.

Want the game to do better in the US? Do some research find out what American's drive and what they WISH they were driving.

I truly believe culling the car list and researching it to find the right balance would make all the difference to both sales, cost andd ev time.

 

[Haunted]

^^ Good post, Why For.

I just hope they put the oldies on the top of the list, would love to drive this baby with cockpit view :lol

Oh yeah baby, sign me up for some of that shit. Never played GT for the high performance cars. It's all about vintage and production cars for me.

I know far more people that play WoW than Halo, also as a Halo fan I see Reach as more or less bombing, I sincerely thought it would under perform in 2010 as a whole.

So basically you're admitting that you're not only clueless about WoW and SCII sales (as well as the digital market as a whole), but Halo's sales as well.

Well, glad we've cleared that up.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Need a hand ?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...e_Sales_Were_Digital_In_Last_Three_Months.php



and no, DLC is not included. We're talking about fully fledged games.

So I'm guessing not just Steam, but Games on Demand, XBLA, PSN, and WiiWare are kind of a big deal now.

 

[Kenka]

That doesn't really prove any of the questions at hand, also from that article

It's a good point but 58% of 29% is still 17% of the overall unit sales for the past three months. And it represents games purchsed through a non-retail plateform for PC and consoles.

You can argue further that September through end of November traditionally account for 30% of total sales during a year.


We could roughly say that during this period, 6% of all games sold in the market were dowloaded for either PC or consoles. How much of it is strictly PC I don't know but you realize that it probably represents a big load of bucks, huh ?

Downloaded sales matter. And we have good reasons to think that PC gets a large chunk of it (compare how many games are available on DD for both plateforms and we'll talk).

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

So basically you're admitting that you're not only clueless about WoW and SCII sales (as well as the digital market as a whole), but Halo's sales as well.

Well, glad we've cleared that up.

That's not what I'm saying at all, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

It's a good point but 58% of 29% is still 17% of the overall unit sales for the past three months. And it represents games purchsed through a non-retail plateform for PC and consoles.

You can argue further that September through end of November traditionally account for 30% of total sales during a year.


We could roughly say that during this period, 6% of all games sold in the market were dowloaded for either PC or consoles. How much of it is strictly PC I don't know but you realize that it probably represents a big load of bucks, huh ?

Yeah, it's definitely a lot of money, but I (and I'm sure a lot of people here who aren't admitting it) figured SC2 and WoW would beat out Halo, both were HIGHLY anticipated titles (DD withstanding).

I wonder if they will ever release the DD numbers for those two.

 

[Forkball]

I, for one, welcome our Just Dance overlords.

 

[_Alkaline_]

When I saw the Last Guardian trailer, I felt it was the first time video games had surpassed hollywood in terms of cinematic vision. Ueda-san is really on to something here, this may be a hit.

Unless you're shooting or stabbing the shit outta the ratbird, don't expect it to sell all that well.

 

[BoilersFan23]

Yeah.they need the management side of western developers to help them focus. That and the great talent at PD could make an awesome GT6 game. And in a fraction of the time they previously needed.

I really don't think they'll be working with the western development side at all. I would believe that Kaz wants to keep the project to his team only to design it the way he wants to.

Its difficult because its not like PD can hire tons of new programmers in order to make the project they wish. The amount of high end graphic programmers in Japan continues to shrink, compared to the west where many people are going to school learning high end graphics programming (kind of like in an article where Yoshida from SCE WWS mentions about the power shifting from Japan to the west). FFXIII had a similar problem too which probably explains why HD towns and so on could not be used.

Tons of games from Japan these days are getting made in the west instead, such as Castlevania, Devil May Cry, Dead Rising, Front Mission, Silent Hill, and so on, due to high end graphic programmers being on the west.

This aspect of GT never has to leave. But why have soooooooooooo many cars? It's just not necessary. There's no reason GT6 couldn't be great with a total of say 300 cars. No reason whatsoever.

PD just needs to do some legitimate research into what the userbase wants. Given Europe is now the no.1consumer of GT, why is the car list so Japan-centric? Cut the driftwood and focus on great road cars. You obviously still need the Japanese tuner cars, but there's no need to have:

Skyline R32
Skyline R32 B-Spec
Skyline R32 B Spec II
Skyline R33
Skyline R33 etc. etc.

Do your research, find out which cars were the most popular and cut it down to the 3 or 4 most popular Skylines.

Want the game to do better in the US? Do some research find out what American's drive and what they WISH they were driving.

I truly believe culling the car list and researching it to find the right balance would make all the difference to both sales, cost andd ev time.

Kaz just has a dream of wanting pretty much every kind of car into a game. He's just really big into cars. I remember him wanting Formula 1 racers included too, but Sony no longer licenses F1.

It may be more practical to go to fewer cars, but he just wants pretty much every car imaginable in a game. I'm not really sure if few cars would go so well since I remember many complaining about GT5P only having like 70 or so cars in NA/EU? I could understand the need for more tracks, but having 70 or so was not bad.

 

[Rolf NB]

Dollar Sales

Dollar Sales	 	                                Dec '09   Dec'10  CHG  2009    2010    CHG
	 	 	 	 	 	 
Video Games Software (Console+Portable - New Physical)  $2.57B    $2.37B  -8%  $9.92B  $9.36B  -6%

Total Software Sales - (Console+Portable[b]+PC[/b] New Phys))  $2.67B    $2.53B  -5%  $10.60B $10.06B -5%

So the difference here is the physical PC games market.

100M$ or 3.7% in December '09. 680M$ or 6.4% in the full year.
160M$ or 6.3% in December '10. 700M$ or 7.0% in the full year.

...

 

[Boney]

I, for one, welcome our Just Dance overlords.

Just Dance Kids is coming. I don't understand why they're trying to ruin the franchise.

 

[EviLore]

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm -- 1.5MM
Disney's Epic Mickey -- 1.32MM
Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit -- 906.4K


Numbers are real, unable to comment further. And this is not a policy shift re: leaks, so don't get any ideas.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Just Dance Kids is coming. I don't understand why they're trying to ruin the franchise.

Kids is out in the US already. I don't think, in the eyes of your average hardcore gamer, Just Dance can be 'ruined,' they have nowhere to go but up.

 

[Kafel]

Please someone post some figures, this is becoming a GT5 thread.

edit : wish granted, thx

 

[_Alkaline_]

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm -- 1.5MM
Disney's Epic Mickey -- 1.32MM
Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit -- 906.4K


Numbers are real, unable to comment further. And this is not a policy shift re: leaks, so don't get any ideas.

farooqdamn.gif

 

[V_Ben]

DAMN, Epic Mickey! :O

 

[Lonely1]

When is Activision releasing its own Dance franchise?

 

[schuelma]

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm -- 1.5MM
Disney's Epic Mickey -- 1.32MM
Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit -- 906.4K


Numbers are real, unable to comment further. And this is not a policy shift re: leaks, so don't get any ideas.

Wow at Epic Mickey. Very impressive.

 

[Kenka]

Just Dance Kids is coming. I don't understand why they're trying to ruin the franchise.

And we still haven't heared of Just Dance School Years yet. :lol

 

[apana]

Wow at Epic Mickey, just realized how well it did.