Support NeoGAF

[TheOddOne]

Well if we're going to reduce this to absolute moral relativism then lets not criticize people for running through the streets naked stealing from everyone.

I burst out laughing while reading this line. So good.

 

[Opiate]

that works for private businesses

not for public ones where the shareholders don't like executives doing interpretive dance over burn piles of $100 bills

An even more important point. And this goes directly back in to the same feedback loop I described before. People on GAF often decry shareholder interests: shareholders are shortsighted and don't see the true artistic genius that Microsoft or Sony or whomever is trying to bring forth, or so the argument goes.

The problem is that shareholders aren't just some parasitic entity. The reason they exist is that they gave a gigantic influx of capital to these firms at one point by buying shares. If a company does not wish to be beholden to my personal interests, then don't go public and don't accept my purchase of 1 billion shares of their stock. Once they allow me to do that, though -- they suddenly have enormous quantities of my (and other shareholders') money.

So if you don't want Sony (or Microsoft or whomever) to be beholden to the interests of shareholders, then you should tell Sony or Microsoft to return the money. Just buy up all the shares. The reason they aren't doing that: because they can't realistically afford to. They need that money to fund the Playstation and Xbox. Nintendo needs the money to fund the 3DS, and so forth. So again, I see two moral choices.

1) Accept shareholder investment capital. You now have lots more cash flow to work with, but you also now owe it to your investors to pay attention to their needs. They gave you a whole lot of money, after all. It does not mean you have to bow to every whim, but ignoring them entirely is wrong.

2) Do not accept shareholder investment capital. You get to make all your own choices, but good luck beating the big boys when they have billions of dollars to work with and you don't. It happens, but it's rare: more likely you're lucky to maintain a small clientele. Extremely few private firms become international corporate conglomerates a la Sony.

What is not okay, however, is taking billions of dollars from investors, and then telling them to butt out when they would like a say in the direction of the company. Imagine this scenario: you loan your friend 2,000 dollars. Typically people do this under the assumption that your friend is paying off student loans or getting out of debt in some fashion and requires immediate assistance. If I did that and my friend went and blew it all at a casino, I'd be pissed, and I'd have a right to be pissed. What he did was wrong. Shareholder investment is the same concept writ large.

If you do not like how public firms work -- if you reject the notion of C corporations and S Corporations or even reject the entire concept of incorporation entirely -- then you are essentially rejecting the entire foundation of modern business. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but that's a much bigger discussion that's far outside the scope of this thread.

As it stands, however, this is how every major business works. Including Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, EA, ActivisionBlizzard, Ubisoft, and Take 2. If you reject these principles, you're essentially shaking your fist at "the man" for keeping you down. If you do not reject these principles, then it stands to reason that it is immoral for CEOs to disregard shareholders (since they gave them lots of money), and in turn, it is immoral for studios to ignore CEOs (since the CEOs, in turn, gave the studios lots of money).

If you don't want to be told what to do, then don't borrow money from other people and go it alone.

 

[rosjos44]

Does anyone have the LTD's for PS2, PsP, 360, PS3, Wii , and Nintendo DS in the states?

 

[Gamecocks625]

awesome post

Excellent explanation. I'd give you a tag but I'm not you.

 

[onipex]

Well that is pretty stupid, third parties will not even bother if they are the ones left to sell the peripheral for Sony. More developers are more willing to develop for something once it userbase is their.

Same reason why there are very few WM+ games since Nintendo hasn't expanded its base yet.

The motion plus base has had steady growth, because WSR has had steady sales. Nintendo also included it with the hardware for a while now so the base is pretty big. I think the reason you don't see many motion plus games from third parties is that you don't see many third party Wii games at all.

In a few ways Nintendo has pushed motion plus more than they pushed the balance board. The Wii Remote plus replacing the Wii remote it a big push for it too.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Indeed, both Kinect Sports and Dance Central have sold more than GT5.

hmmm, i'm just wondering if that would've been a "troll-worthy" prediction if it had been said back in mid 2010.

 

[Megadragon15]

hmmm, i'm just wondering if that would've been a "ban-worthy" prediction if it had been said back in mid 2010.

Nice stealth edit.

 

[Dabanton]

hmmm, i'm just wondering if that would've been a "troll-worthy" prediction if it had been said back in mid 2010.

You would have been pilloried for it no doubt.

 

[CadetMahoney]

It could've been ban-worthy, maybe in the GT5 thread. You never know about these things. As for being trolled I think that would've been pretty much guaranteed. Not many ppl thought two kinect games would each outsell GT5, heck even Kinect was a big underdog with Move seen on equal terms (or more) and now everything is topsy turvy.

 

[Four_Chamber]

God bless you Travado. The misguided will soon see the error of their ways.

That's even better than Alberto's paraphrase

 

[poppabk]

If I were to rate these 3 criteria against MS with Kinect, it would be:

- Software: About the same as MS
- Commitment: MS was 2 levels above them in this respect ($500M campaign, getting Kinect on Opera, marketing the thing even a year in advance etc...)
- Advertising: Again, MS was definitely a notch above Sony in this respect.

So Sony's mistake was that they were unable to follow through the same way MS did.

Sony's mistake was trying to differentiate the Move as a controller for 'gamers'. MS went with the 'Wii is too complex' angle and it paid off. MS also released a dance game just as dance games became the new phenomenon.

 

[Jeels]

It could've been ban-worthy, maybe in the GT5 thread. You never know about these things. As for being trolled I think that would've been pretty much guaranteed. Not many ppl thought two kinect games would each outsell GT5, heck even Kinect was a big underdog with Move seen on equal terms (or more) and now everything is topsy turvy.

People thought Move and Kinect were going to be on equal footing? I bought and prefer Move but it was fairly obvious what was going to play out by the ways in which both companies were talking about their product.

 

[Plinko]

Sony's mistake was trying to differentiate the Move as a controller for 'gamers'. MS went with the 'Wii is too complex' angle and it paid off. MS also released a dance game just as dance games became the new phenomenon.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Tmac]

People thought Move and Kinect were going to be on equal footing? I bought and prefer Move but it was fairly obvious what was going to play out by the ways in which both companies were talking about their product.

NA wise the kinect is a front loaded release while the move could (if sucefull) be compared with a sleeper hit.

The real winner will be the one who have longer legs.

Play and technology wise i still think the move have much more potention. It will all depends on the software.

 

[Megadragon15]

NA wise the kinect is a front loaded release while the move could (if sucefull) be compared with a sleeper hit.

The real winner will be the one who have longer legs.

Play and technology wise i still think the move have much more potention. It will all depends on the software.

This seems like wishful thinking.

 

[_Alkaline_]

NA wise the kinect is a front loaded release while the move could (if sucefull) be compared with a sleeper hit.

The real winner will be the one who have longer legs.

Play and technology wise i still think the move have much more potention. It will all depends on the software.

Uh....good luck with this.

 

[Tmac]

This seems like wishful thinking.

Not at all. Explain why them.

Front loaded = Lots of marketing = lots of initial sales (can lead to a long lasting success or not)

Sleeper hit (the way sony vision Move to be) = something that is released with little marketing and due to its quality increase their sales over time due to mouth to mouth buzz. - That's Sony strategy for move, not necessarily what will happen.

The Winner is obviously the one who have longer legs.

Them i posted a personal opinion and stated that. I PERSONALY think move is a better technology. Any problem with that?

 

[_Alkaline_]

nvm

 

[Boney]

Quick somebody bring out those if Kinect stopped selling it would take Move 200 months to catch it at this pace thingy.

 

[Tmac]

Maybe thats how it souded but problem is, i wasnt defending anything, just trying to analise different market approachs. Sony intended to lay low with move release, while MS went for a high profile launch.

Both are valid market approachs and both worked in the past with different products. Noone is a sure hit and only time will tell which company did the right bet with their new product.

 

[duk]

NA wise the kinect is a front loaded release while the move could (if sucefull) be compared with a sleeper hit.

The real winner will be the one who have longer legs.

Play and technology wise i still think the move have much more potention. It will all depends on the software.

Vast majority of PS3 'game-changers' have not worked or the competitor's offering has faired better including: six-axis motion controls, home, psn, etc.

While early, Move seems to on the road of fail.

 

[Baki]

Quick somebody bring out those if Kinect stopped selling it would take Move 200 months to catch it at this pace thingy.

Except that's not really the case. The MOVE is realistically at around 5M shipped WW while Kinect is at 8M shipped worldwide. Which really harpers back to what Opiate said, the Xbox is an extremely regional product.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Except that's not really the case. The MOVE is realistically at around 5M shipped WW while Kinect is at 8M shipped worldwide. Which really harpers back to what Opiate said, the Xbox is an extremely regional product.

That's not really accurate. Our last number is 4.1 Move controllers shipped worldwide. We don't know how it has shipped or sold since then, and since we don't know the average number of controllers people have purchased, we have no idea of knowing the effective install base.

If the average is, for example, 1.5 move controllers per person, then that'd be 2.73 million install base on 4.1 million. At 2.5, that's 1.64 million. Imagine trying to tell Wii sales by number of Wiimotes sold.

 

[Cipherr]

Kinect is a fad then that will burn out any day now and be overtaken by the PS3 and 36....wait.

 

[Psychotext]

The Winner is obviously the one who have longer legs.

Surely the one that sells the most / has the best attach rate is the winner?

I could sell 20 million of something in two months, with 50 million games... and you could sell 5 million over the next 5 years, with 10 million games. What you're selling would have the longer legs, but it wouldn't be more of a success (assuming the same profit margin on both).

 

[shinshero]

.

 

[_Alkaline_]

That's a fair assessment. But Publishers usually just look at absolute numbers.

But that's besides the point, the point I was trying to make was that the previous user statement was not an accurate assessment regarding the gap between the two products.

I thought Baki said that?

 

[Baki]

I thought Baki said that?

Posted with my brothers account accidentally. One of the bummers of using the main desktop.

 

[Megadragon15]

I thought Baki said that?

Maybe shinshero is Baki's alternate?
Edit: Or what Baki said above

 

[Opiate]

Not at all. Explain why them.

Front loaded = Lots of marketing = lots of initial sales (can lead to a long lasting success or not)

Sleeper hit (the way sony vision Move to be) = something that is released with little marketing and due to its quality increase their sales over time due to mouth to mouth buzz. - That's Sony strategy for move, not necessarily what will happen.

The Winner is obviously the one who have longer legs.

Them i posted a personal opinion and stated that. I PERSONALY think move is a better technology. Any problem with that?

What is your evidence that the Move is a higher quality product? Other than "I personally think it is."

I can give evidence that it isn't: it's getting clobbered in the market place right now by Kinect. You seem convinced that this is an illusion -- that conusmers are, in essence, being fooled -- but that eventually consumers will wake up and realize their mistake and start buying the "better" product.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm asking for you to provide evidence that you're right.

 

[GavinGT]

So, given that the top Kinect games are selling 20 times better than the top Move games, is it now fair to say that Sony's report of 4 million sold (or whatever the number) is in no way comparable to the same number of Kinects sold?

 

[boiled goose]

People act as if Sony decided not to advertise and Microsoft decided to advertise and the fact that microsoft decided to do it resulted in the better sales of kinect.

Sony is not stupid. Marketing people determine how much more sales some advertising will get you and then you decide how much to advertise. For kinect it is clear that people at microsoft believed that more advertising would result in much more sales. for move, the people at sony probably determined that much more advertising would have resulted in only marginally better sales. advertising is an investment. companies decide if the investment is worth it or not.

why would advertising for kinect result in more sales than advertising for move? kinect seems different and exciting. move seems like a (maybe improved?) wiimote. the gaming media and developers are equally aware of both devices, so advertising is not affecting them, yet there is much more enthusiasm for kinect.

 

[slade]

The Playstation name, at least in the US, doesn't carry that much weight anymore.

If this generation should have taught anyone anything, it's that brand name has very little to do with gaining the number one spot in th VG market. Price, marketing and motion gimmicks rule the day.

 

[jedimike]

So, given that the top Kinect games are selling 20 times better than the top Move games, is it now fair to say that Sony's report of 4 million sold (or whatever the number) is in no way comparable to the same number of Kinects sold?

Stump has you covered just a handful of posts up...

 

[_Alkaline_]

If this generation should have taught anyone anything, it's that brand name has very little to do with gaining the number one spot in th VG market. Price, marketing and motion gimmicks rule the day.

Correct. Brand loyalty is essentially a myth in this industry.

 

[jedimike]

People act as if Sony decided not to advertise and Microsoft decided to advertise and the fact that microsoft decided to do it resulted in the better sales of kinect.

Sony is not stupid. Marketing people determine how much more sales some advertising will get you and then you decide how much to advertise. For kinect it is clear that people at microsoft believed that more advertising would result in much more sales. for move, the people at sony probably determined that much more advertising would have resulted in only marginally better sales. advertising is an investment. companies decide if the investment is worth it or not.

why would advertising for kinect result in more sales than advertising for move? kinect seems different and exciting. move seems like a (maybe improved?) wiimote. the gaming media and developers are equally aware of both devices, so advertising is not affecting them, yet there is much more enthusiasm for kinect.

AFAIK, Sony hasn't revealed how much advertising they spent on Move. Anecdotally, I saw as many ads on TV for Move as I did for Kinect. It wasn't as if Sony didn't advertise the hell out of Move... they did, MS just went a bit further with Kinect on cereal boxes and half racks of pepsi.

 

[GavinGT]

Stump has you covered just a handful of posts up...

Right. I'm just saying that, given the software sales data, that should hush the people who keep trying to compare Move and Kinect sales apples-to-apples. Some were trying to twist the numbers to their own ends.

Correct. Brand loyalty is essentially a myth in this industry.

If your only talking about mainstream audiences, sure.

 

[boiled goose]

If this generation should have taught anyone anything, it's that brand name has very little to do with gaining the number one spot in th VG market. Price, marketing and motion gimmicks rule the day.

a pretty naive view. ( and subtle trolling) brand name matters. nintendo was not a good brand at the end of the cube era, for that reason they tried to separate Wii from nintendo as much as possible. if sony's next console is the ps4, the associations people have with the playstation brand will matter.

Correct. Brand loyalty is essentially a myth in this industry.

Brand loyalty is not a guarantee for success by a longshot, but to say that brand associations dont matter is naive.

why is the DS the 3DS?
why was the ps2 the playstation 2?
why was the snes the super nintendo?
why was the Wii not the nintendo 5?

Brand associations matter, and they can be both positive or negative for different people.
that does not mean that your entire current audience will carry over.

 

[plagiarize]

I still kind of seethe from one of those Last Guardian threads where someone took a picture of Ueda and the dogthing on the TV behind him and said "He is looking at his master and thanking him for his creation" or something like that.

Like, I think a part of my mind actually exploded reading that.

It is the same reaction I would have reading a Dan Brown novel.

The famous man picked up the green cup. It was hot.

 

[Celsior]

If your only talking about mainstream audiences, sure.

You mean the gaf theory of Team Ico games are crafted by a god is not a common theory. I for one am shocked.

 

[plagiarize]

AFAIK, Sony hasn't revealed how much advertising they spent on Move. Anecdotally, I saw as many ads on TV for Move as I did for Kinect. It wasn't as if Sony didn't advertise the hell out of Move... they did, MS just went a bit further with Kinect on cereal boxes and half racks of pepsi.

and their advertising was better too.

i doubt it cost them much to get on Oprah and Ellen relatively speaking.

 

[Tmac]

What is your evidence that the Move is a higher quality product? Other than "I personally think it is."

I can give evidence that it isn't: it's getting clobbered in the market place right now by Kinect. You seem convinced that this is an illusion -- that conusmers are, in essence, being fooled -- but that eventually consumers will wake up and realize their mistake and start buying the "better" product.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm asking for you to provide evidence that you're right.

I clear stated that it was a personal opinion, therefore theres no evidence to proove anything.

Getting clobbered in the market had nothing to do with a product quality. History tells us that a lot of high quality products had poor sales. Sales doesnt means something is good neither is true that a good product will always have good sales.

 

[jonnybryce]

Aren't apples being compared to oranges? Microsoft positioned Kinect as a console launch and treated it as such. Sony treats Move like an alternate control scheme for those who want it. I don't think Sony is shocked at their results, they know what they put into this and what Microsoft did differently. If Sony wanted Move to be a bigger hit they would have done a lot more. I feel like it's doing what they want it to - satisfy gamers who want some casual/hardcore motion action and allow PS3 to check off "It only does motion."

 

[jman2050]

Aren't apples being compared to oranges? Microsoft positioned Kinect as a console launch and treated it as such. Sony treats Move like an alternate control scheme for those who want it. I don't think Sony is shocked at their results, they know what they put into this and what Microsoft did differently. If Sony wanted Move to be a bigger hit they would have done a lot more. I feel like it's doing what they want it to - satisfy gamers who want some casual/hardcore motion action and allow PS3 to check off "It only does motion."

The problem is that this was not a goal worth going for for them. Maybe if they were the market leader, but not when they have one smart competitor with their own unique take on one side and a 1000 pound gorilla on the other.

 

[Opiate]

I clear stated that it was a personal opinion, therefore theres no evidence to proove anything.

So then, couldn't this argument be made for literally any losing product? Honest question. The Gamecube. Ngage. Walkman MP3 players. The Kin.

Let's say I believe one or all of these is a high quality product. From there, I can say, "As people learn how great it is, things will change." Obviously I can't say that about all these now, as their time has come and passed. I mean saying this during their time.

Getting clobbered in the market had nothing to do with a product quality. History tells us that a lot of high quality products had poor sales. Sales doesnt means something is good neither is true that a good product will always have good sales.

Of course it has something to do with it. It isn't an absolute correlation, but I would strongly suggest that products people like tend to be purchased more than products people don't. Especially in the entertainment industry, where the "quality" is defined by having fun with something, rather than something more objective and specific (i.e. there is not much wiggle room in what is a quality medicine and what is not).

 

[SapientWolf]

People act as if Sony decided not to advertise and Microsoft decided to advertise and the fact that microsoft decided to do it resulted in the better sales of kinect.

Sony is not stupid. Marketing people determine how much more sales some advertising will get you and then you decide how much to advertise. For kinect it is clear that people at microsoft believed that more advertising would result in much more sales. for move, the people at sony probably determined that much more advertising would have resulted in only marginally better sales. advertising is an investment. companies decide if the investment is worth it or not.

why would advertising for kinect result in more sales than advertising for move? kinect seems different and exciting. move seems like a (maybe improved?) wiimote. the gaming media and developers are equally aware of both devices, so advertising is not affecting them, yet there is much more enthusiasm for kinect.

Given Sony's marketing lately it was probably a wise choice.

 

[Truespeed]

Yes they absolutely should if Sony wants to do more than be the video game industry's arthouse darling.

They run a business. All the "oh my god the dogbirdthing from The Last Guardian looks truly alive GAMING IS ART" fetishists in the world can not sustain the PS3 alone.

So, with the exception of telling them to shoehorn motion controls into their games, what additional things should they be telling them to do?

 

[gkryhewy]

Except that's not really the case. The MOVE is realistically at around 5M shipped WW while Kinect is at 8M shipped worldwide. Which really harpers back to what Opiate said, the Xbox is an extremely regional product.

4.5M people bought Move nubbins because they mistakenly though they were sex toys. It's the only thing that would explain the attach rate.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

God bless you Travado. The misguided will soon see the error of their ways.

I'm going to go watch Scanners to remind myself how good I have it.

 

[onipex]

Sony's mistake was trying to differentiate the Move as a controller for 'gamers'. MS went with the 'Wii is too complex' angle and it paid off. MS also released a dance game just as dance games became the new phenomenon.

I think MS went with the we have something much different angle. The same angel Nintendo went with the Wii. Move is just too much like the Wii remote for most to care.

With the way Ubisoft is milking it dance games could only have one year left.