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[legend166]

Then there wouldn't be an FPS on PS3 and Xbox 360; I mean, the controls are just plain horrible, paid or bad online infrastructure, bad and dated graphics (not even HD, lol), etc. The only choice for serious fans of FPS games is the PC.

PC gaming, high five!

 

[Sleeker]

Mario Kart is Hardcasual

 

[Macho Madness]

Motion controls or kb/mouse are blu-ray to dual analog's DVD. .

Horrible analogy. Blu Ray is growing overtime and is a new technology, while those controls are not. Dual Analog controllers are a more streamlined way to play games, and that's why they win. The keyboard and mouse is generally just too clunky and overbearing to just play games for most people (including myself) and that is why the Dual Analog has taken over.

I love first person shooters, always have. I have just never taken to a kb/mouse. I started out with a controller and it's how I feel most comfortable. Any advantage gained with the precision of the mouse is lost to me due to the clunkiness of using a keyboard.

 

[Firestorm]

Point and shoot is clunkier than fiddling around with two sticks. You heard it here first.

 

[Milabrega]

Look personal preference for an inferior control scheme is fine, but attacking the superior control method to justify your own preference is not kosher.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Nope. Don't say you're correcting me about something where you don't actually seem to have all the relevant information.

How is me saying that Nintendo most likely had something to do with DQX being on the Wii due to the fact that it was announced prior to DQIX (in which the games release was highly important is it was meant to test the waters of another platform arena) not relevant against a statement that Nintendo did supposedly "nothing" to get the game on their console?

I don't see how I said anywhere in my post that SE wanted to "test" the DS' ability to sell a DQ game.

I wasn't explaining why you thought they did but more so me.

Mario Kart is Hardcasual

Off-Topic - But the PC Case in your avatar is the same one I have at home. Mindblown!

Horrible analogy. Blu Ray is growing overtime and is a new technology, while those controls are not. Dual Analog controllers are a more streamlined way to play games, and that's why they win. The keyboard and mouse is generally just too clunky and overbearing to just play games for most people (including myself) and that is why the Dual Analog has taken over.

I love first person shooters, always have. I have just never taken to a kb/mouse. I started out with a controller and it's how I feel most comfortable. Any advantage gained with the precision of the mouse is lost to me due to the clunkiness of using a keyboard.

Dual Analog has only "taken over" on consoles and that's because those are the only controllers that are packed in with those platforms.

 

[DangerousDave]

Point and shoot is clunkier than fiddling around with two sticks. You heard it here first.

Any advantage gained with the precision of the mouse is lost to me due to the clunkiness of using a keyboard.

He's not saying that point & shoot is clunkier. He's saying that using the keys for all the other actions is clunkier, i suppose that due the lack of analog precision in the keys.

I always play shooters in PC, if it's duable. But sometimes I miss the analog sensibility of the triggers or the left stick for moving. Also, i found easier the combination of actions that allow using the right hand for almost all actions (keeping the left one for movement). in PC, using the left hand to manage the movement and, in the same time, using the crouch, jump, use and recharge buttons (typical c, space, e and r, and shift to run) makes me loose reflexes. But I still prefer PC for FPS (but not for sandbox or other games where driving-movement is more important than shooting precision).

 

[ComputerNerd]

Horrible analogy. Blu Ray is growing overtime and is a new technology, while those controls are not. Dual Analog controllers are a more streamlined way to play games, and that's why they win. The keyboard and mouse is generally just too clunky and overbearing to just play games for most people (including myself) and that is why the Dual Analog has taken over.

I love first person shooters, always have. I have just never taken to a kb/mouse. I started out with a controller and it's how I feel most comfortable. Any advantage gained with the precision of the mouse is lost to me due to the clunkiness of using a keyboard.

You started out with a controller? What was your first FPS?

 

[crazy monkey]

since we are talking hardcore and casual. I still don't know how you describe hardcore is it just the difficulty of the game? or the length of the time you play the game. some of the gamers who say they are casual, play 100's of hours in call of duty and WOW.

And funny yhing I have friend who describes him self as hardcore mobile game player He plays more game on his mobile phone than on console or PC.

 

[Macho Madness]

You started out with a controller? What was your first FPS?

Probably Zero Tolerance on the Genesis. Bad example of an FPS though.

 

[SuperBonk]

I agree. As someone who values skill/challenge over presentation/graphics, this is a shame for me, but it hardly affects me anyway. The highest skill quotient available for such games can be found on PC, and that's not affected. Essentially, I just wish more people shared my value for challenge and skill, but that isn't happening. The answer to my wish is, "too bad, Opiate."

I see you're still using this argument when it has been proven to not make any sense.

 

[Opiate]

I see you're still using this argument when it has been proven to not make any sense.

No, it's still correct. In fact, you pretty much agreed with my point when our conversation was concluded.

Please don't start.

 

[SuperBonk]

No, it's still correct. In fact, you pretty much agreed with my point when our conversation was concluded.

Please don't start.

Sigh. I never agreed with you. The argument ended with you changing your original stance so drastically that it was hard to to see a connection between the two. And even then it had problems.

Like it or not, your argument is highly subjective and contains logical leaps and wild assumptions (i.e. worthless)

 

[Opiate]

Sigh. I never agreed with you. The argument ended with you changing your original stance so drastically that it was hard to to see a connection between the two. And even then it had problems.

Like it or not, your argument is highly subjective and contains logical leaps and wild assumptions (i.e. worthless)

Sure thing.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Truth be told, The Conduit was never meant to be anything more than a B level game that was hyped to AAA+ status by Nintendo fanboys who hoped that if it sold well, then third parties would start porting their PS3 and 360 wares to the Wii. Even if The Conduit sold by the truckload, that never would mean that Resident Evil 5 or Street Fighter 4 would land on the Wii. The Conduit was a shitty trojan horse to be picked.

Also, target markets are completely different. You guys wanted grandmas and soccer moms to buy a Wii but at the same time expected that same base to buy The Conduit.

The Blue Ocean Strategy at work here, people.

 

[SuperBonk]

Sure thing.

See? Now we agree.

 

[Opiate]

Truth be told, The Conduit was never meant to be anything more than a B level game that was hyped to AAA+ status by Nintendo fanboys who hoped that if it sold well, then third parties would start porting their PS3 and 360 wares to the Wii. Even if The Conduit sold by the truckload, that never would mean that Resident Evil 5 or Street Fighter 4 would land on the Wii. The Conduit was a shitty trojan horse to be picked.

Also, target markets are completely different. You guys wanted grandmas and soccer moms to buy a Wii but at the same time expected that same base to buy The Conduit.

The Blue Ocean Strategy at work here, people.

It's an example of the disruption strategy failing, actually. Disruption begins by drawing in previously disinterested consumers, but is intended to gradually move upstream and in to traditional buyers.

That hasn't happened. In fact, it seems to me that the Wii's ratio of traditional buyers is decreasing. Nintendo wanted to get everyone, but instead they got everyone-but-traditional-gamers.

 

[SuperBonk]

since we are talking hardcore and casual. I still don't know how you describe hardcore is it just the difficulty of the game? or the length of the time you play the game. some of the gamers who say they are casual, play 100's of hours in call of duty and WOW.

And funny yhing I have friend who describes him self as hardcore mobile game player He plays more game on his mobile phone than on console or PC.

The semantics of the word have been discussed to death. It has certain connotations that apply depending on context. Most of the time however, it's unnecessary as there's always a better (less vague) word that one can use.

 

[Fredescu]

I'm sure this will be the last gen where dual analog is the prevailing control option for console shooters. It will probably still be a classic controller style option though.

 

[Opiate]

I'm sure this will be the last gen where dual analog is the prevailing control option for console shooters. It will probably still be a classic controller style option though.

I wouldn't say "sure," but I think that's very likely. Other control schemes are encroaching from every direction: the PC remains a stalwart, the Wii has gained tremendous ground this generation, the DS is selling in vastly larger quantities than handhelds had before, using a distinct control scheme, and now even the PS3 and 360 are adding on new control options that they are promoting heavily.

Just 5 years ago, practically every major gaming device besides the PC was using a traditional controller: the Game Boy, Playstation 2, Gamecube, and Xbox. Compare that to what we have now. The writing is on the wall.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

It's an example of the disruption strategy failing, actually. Disruptionbegins by drawing in previously disinterested consumers, but is intended to gradually move upstream and in to traditional buyers.

That hasn't happened. In fact, it seems to me that the Wii's ratio of traditional buyers is decreasing. Nintendo wanted to get everyone, but instead they got everyone-but-traditional-gamers.

The Blue Ocean Strategy's intent was to tap into those who didn't buy games initially. That meant soccer moms, lapsed gamers (insane rants excluded), and grandmas. These are the types of people that would enjoy a game like Wii Bowling or Wii Fit but not give a flying fuck about The Conduit. Those games were meant to be on those "other" machines.

If the follow through was bringing traditional gamers back into the fold, it never had a chance anyway. A lot of the top sellers (Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc.) were games that traditional gaming masses rejected en masse for generations, since maybe the NES. These were the games made only by the lowliest of shovelware developers during the PS1/PS2 era but this generation, a new control scheme was added, new advertising, and there you go. Core gamers have been leaving Nintendo slowly since the N64 and their first party non non-game Wii efforts haven't deviated much outside of the usual Mario Kart, Zelda, etc. that didn't win too many new games over last generation with the GameCube. Mario Galaxy was fucking awesome but most of the gamers that went nuts for that type of gameplay have long since moved on.

Third party developers have long since known this, which is why almost three years into the system's life, there hasn't been much coming from them outside of the occasional bone mixed in with numerous cash-in party titles and PS2 or PSP port ups.

 

[Opiate]

The Blue Ocean Strategy's intent was to tap into those who didn't buy games initially. That meant soccer moms, lapsed gamers (insane rants excluded), and grandmas. These are the types of people that would enjoy a game like Wii Bowling or Wii Fit but not give a flying fuck about The Conduit. Those games were meant to be on those "other" machines.

Right. That part succeeded. And then from there, they were supposed to move upstream. That part failed.

If the follow through was bringing traditional gamers back into the fold, it never had a chance anyway. A lot of the top sellers (Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc.) were games that traditional gaming masses rejected en masse for generations, since maybe the NES.

It's an interesting question: who is at fault here? Nintendo for lacking execution in bringing traditional gamers in to the fold, or gamers for being profoundly xenophobic? Reasonably, there should be no reason to object so strongly to new people entering the industry, or different people having different interests.

Still, the blame has to fall on Nintendo -- you can't blame the consumer. This simply underscores the challenges Nintendo faces, and the depth of "core gamers" unwillingness to accept other people's preferences. In fact, that's what the term "hardcore" actually means -- a stubborn rejection of change or improvement.

 

[SuperBonk]

I'm sure this will be the last gen where dual analog is the prevailing control option for console shooters. It will probably still be a classic controller style option though.

I'm still unclear as to how Natal will work with shooters. It could be used as a supplement, sure, but as it stands now, it looks like the traditional 360 controller will still be needed.

Of course, MS could come out with their own pointer device/light gun add-on.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Still, the blame has to fall on Nintendo -- you can't blame the consumer. This simply underscores the challenges Nintendo faces, and the depth of "core gamers" unwillingness to accept other people's preferences. In fact, that's what the term "hardcore" actually means -- a stubborn rejection of change or improvement.

People seem to forget this. It doesn't matter what the consumer's think or what the third parties didn't catch. At the end of it it is Nintendo's platform thus it is their job to get games and consumer demographics to their platform.

 

[AniHawk]

Third party developers have long since known this, which is why almost three years into the system's life, there hasn't been much coming from them outside of the occasional bone mixed in with numerous cash-in party titles and PS2 or PSP port ups.

Third party developers don't really get a say in things. It's third party publishers that decide where the money goes, and those guys are pretty much all bleeding to death.

It's an interesting question: who is at fault here? Nintendo for lacking execution in bringing traditional gamers in to the fold, or gamers for being profoundly xenophobic? Reasonably, there should be no reason to object so strongly to new people entering the industry, or different people having different interests.

Still, the blame has to fall on Nintendo -- you can't blame the consumer. This simply underscores the challenges Nintendo faces, and the depth of "core gamers" unwillingness to accept other people's preferences. In fact, that's what the term "hardcore" actually means -- a stubborn rejection of change or improvement.

That's a good point. They've been pretty terrible at third party relations for a long, long time. I mean, decades. It seems they've worked stuff out with some third parties during the Gamecube era, but those were mostly Japanese companies. In fact, the most of the Nintendo's third-party support still comes from Japanese companies. Aside from Acclaim and Factor 5 during the N64 era and Silicon Knights and n-Space during the Gamecube era, I can't think of another western third party that really worked on a Nintendo system. 5th Cell, I guess.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Right. That part succeeded. And then from there, they were supposed to move upstream. That part failed.



It's an interesting question: who is at fault here? Nintendo for lacking execution in bringing traditional gamers in to the fold, or gamers for being profoundly xenophobic? Reasonably, there should be no reason to object so strongly to new people entering the industry, or different people having different interests.

Still, the blame has to fall on Nintendo -- you can't blame the consumer. This simply underscores the challenges Nintendo faces, and the depth of "core gamers" unwillingness to accept other people's preferences. In fact, that's what the term "hardcore" actually means -- a stubborn rejection of change or improvement.

The term hardcore isn't meant to be taken literally as their tastes have changed over time. The hardcore does adapt to new concepts but when the new concepts appear to be taking a few steps back, it isn't going to be accepted.

The challenge Nintendo faces is their own problem: a lack of balance. Nintendo has embraced the Wii Fit set but not those who grew up with the NES. Well, other than condescending efforts like Punch Out that hope to sell millions of copies because of the name on the box and doing little more to evolve the gameplay that is roughly 20 years old.

Gamers didn't leave Nintendo; Nintendo left the gamers.

 

[Fredescu]

I'm still unclear as to how Natal will work with shooters. It could be used as a supplement, sure, but as it stands now, it looks like the traditional 360 controller will still be needed.

Of course, MS could come out with their own pointer device/light gun add-on.

I'd be shocked if Natal didn't include some sort of pointer functionality. Someone even pointed out during the Natal launch that all you'd need is a few detectable points on the back of the existing 360 pad and you have a pointer contoller with very little expense. Creating peripherals at very little expense isn't in Microsoft's DNA, but I'm sure they'll have something.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The term hardcore isn't meant to be taken literally as their tastes have changed over time. The hardcore does adapt to new concepts but when the new concepts appear to be taking a few steps back, it isn't going to be accepted.

The challenge Nintendo faces is their own problem: a lack of balance. Nintendo has embraced the Wii Fit set but not those who grew up with the NES. Well, other than condescending efforts like Punch Out that hope to sell millions of copies because of the name on the box and doing little more to evolve the gameplay that is roughly 20 years old.

Gamers didn't leave Nintendo; Nintendo left the gamers.

 

[Cipherr]

=The keyboard and mouse is generally just too clunky and overbearing to just play games for most people (including myself) and that is why the Dual Analog has taken over.

First off, the dual analog hasn't taken over anything. Its still inferior, and likely on its way out with the Wiimote Natal PSmote stuff incoming. It didnt even have a decent 15 minutes of fame, let alone taken over any damn thing. Now that we have gotten that out of the way...

Its fine if its too complex for you, or if you lack the coordination, or don't know a keyboard well enough to function at the quick pace required by a FPS to play with a KB&M effectively. But that crap doesnt make it any less the best way to play a game of the genre. Analog input is one draw back that can be designed around, the number of input buttons however, and the sheer on pointer accuracy mean more for the genre than any dual analog however could even dream to match.

Im not even going to beat around the bush, fuck it. Dual analog (as far as the FPS genre goes) is the facking Wiimote (in relation of course to traditional console genres previously inaccessible to casuals) to the KB&M. Just makes it a little easier for the less seasoned to get into the game.

 

[a Master Ninja]

First off, the dual analog hasn't taken over anything. Its still inferior, and likely on its way out with the Wiimote Natal PSmote stuff incoming.

Really? Really?

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

The challenge Nintendo faces is their own problem: a lack of balance. Nintendo has embraced the Wii Fit set but not those who grew up with the NES. Well, other than condescending efforts like Punch Out that hope to sell millions of copies because of the name on the box and doing little more to evolve the gameplay that is roughly 20 years old.

Gamers didn't leave Nintendo; Nintendo left the gamers.

Nintendo arguably has one of the strongest line-ups for a console now and near future than every before. Nintendo certainly hasn't left its fanbase.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Nintendo arguably has one of the strongest line-ups for a console now and near future than every before. Nintendo certainly hasn't left its fanbase.

lol, no way

 

[AniHawk]

Gamers didn't leave Nintendo; Nintendo left the gamers.

And you were doing so well, too.

Punch-Out is a condescending effort? Wasn't it only made because the president of NoA asked for it to be made?

How did Nintendo leave gamers, exactly, when they've been the ones to bankroll new platformers like NSMB Wii, SMG 2, and Yoshi's Island DS? I mean, did you ever expect to see a sequel to Yoshi's Island after all those failed spinoffs?

And then there's Sin & Punishment 2. I don't even know how that one got approved. It's a sequel to an almost decade-old game that was only released in Japan and only released online elsewhere in the world.

Fire Emblem and Advance Wars still get made, and they're some of the toughest games around. Hell, they even added online capabilities for the most recent entries.

And then there are the more obvious recent examples like Metroid: Other M, which is a pretty big collaboration for a series that hasn't seen a completely new game since 2002. They had Wario Land made for the Wii because Takahiro Harada wanted to do another one. They bought Monolithsoft to be their RPG company. They're having a sequel to Golden Sun made. They're working with Sora to make a brand new 'core' game for the Wii.

Oh, you have got to be kidding sir. First you think of an idea that has already been done. Then you give it a title that nobody could possibly like. Didn't you think this through...it was on the bestseller list for eighteen months! Every magazine cover had...one of the most popular movies of all time, sir! What were you thinking?

 

[a Master Ninja]

Nintendo certainly hasn't left its fanbase.

If fanbase equals the people that grew up playing the NES/SNES, yeah, in a lot of ways Nintendo doesn't cater to them. If fanbase equals children, then Nintendo has never left them. Nintendo is a lot like Disney in this respect. Their products don't grow-up with you, and you shouldn't expect them to. That doesn't mean you can't appreciate a new Nintendo game or Pixar film now and then, but by and large these products are made for you, the 17-35 year old male. Nintendo is busy creating the next generation of gamers, and I commend them for that.

 

[AniHawk]

If fanbase equals the people that grew up playing the NES/SNES, yeah, in a lot of ways Nintendo doesn't cater to them. If fanbase equals children, then Nintendo has never left them. Nintendo is a lot like Disney in this respect. Their products don't grow-up with you, and you shouldn't expect them to. That doesn't mean you can't appreciate a new Nintendo game or Pixar film now and then, but by and large these products are made for you, the 17-35 year old male. Nintendo is busy creating the next generation of gamers, and I commend them for that.

Pixar doesn't make films for children. They make films for everyone.

Dreamworks makes films for children.

And people with no taste.

 

[laserbeam]

Pixar is actually a great comparison company for Nintendo.

Up for instance was a very mature themed movie wrapped up in a package that was deceptively childlike in presentation. Up at its very core was a story for adults presented in a way everyone could enjoy.

Nintendo makes games everyone can enjoy that dont delibertly get big and macho and say no way not for me.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Pixar doesn't make films for children. They make films for everyone.

Dreamworks makes films for children.

And people with no taste.

Spoiler

put naughty dog in the bottom since daxter and nathan drake make that same face

 

[vilmer_]

Pixar doesn't make films for children. They make films for everyone.

Dreamworks makes films for children.

And people with no taste.

So he should have applied Dreamworks instead of Pixar in his post.

 

[AniHawk]

http://j.photos.cx/pixarvsdreamworks-b0d.jpg

:lol

Spoiler

put naughty dog in the bottom since daxter and nathan drake make that same face

Dreamworks:Naughty Dog is an awesome comparison.

So he should have applied Dreamworks instead of Pixar in his post.

He was talking about Nintendo and not Naughty Dog or Rare, so no.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Those stick figure poses & faces are fucking great.

 

[vilmer_]

He was talking about Nintendo and not Naughty Dog or Rare, so no.

Hey, Uncharted is a mans game!

 

[AniHawk]

Hey, Uncharted is a mans game!

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

If fanbase equals the people that grew up playing the NES/SNES, yeah, in a lot of ways Nintendo doesn't cater to them. If fanbase equals children, then Nintendo has never left them. Nintendo is a lot like Disney in this respect. Their products don't grow-up with you, and you shouldn't expect them to. That doesn't mean you can't appreciate a new Nintendo game or Pixar film now and then, but by and large these products are made for you, the 17-35 year old male. Nintendo is busy creating the next generation of gamers, and I commend them for that.

I'm not sure if this post is serious or not.

Spoiler

put naughty dog in the bottom since daxter and nathan drake make that same face

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Thunder Monkey]

The only way I'd like to see this happen is through DICE. An open-ended first-person platforming playground could be very cool.

Well you can't argue with that.

 

[Pureauthor]

I liked Kung Fu Panda.

Is that wrong?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I liked Kung Fu Panda.

Is that wrong?

Almost criminal.

 

[AniHawk]

I liked Kung Fu Panda.

Is that wrong?

GET OUT

 

[Nonoriri]

I liked Kung Fu Panda.

Is that wrong?

Sure is.

 

[Regulus Tera]

And you were doing so well, too.

Punch-Out is a condescending effort? Wasn't it only made because the president of NoA asked for it to be made?

This is the first time I hear about this.

And then there's Sin & Punishment 2. I don't even know how that one got approved. It's a sequel to an almost decade-old game that was only released in Japan and only released online elsewhere in the world.

It also sold like shit in Japan.

And then there are the more obvious recent examples like Metroid: Other M, which is a pretty big collaboration for a series that hasn't seen a completely new game since 2002.

You're such a rebel, you. :lol

 

[Pureauthor]

It also sold like shit in Japan.

I'm pretty sure the discussion was in regards to how Nintendo was treating the consumers, and not the other way around.

Sure is.

GET OUT

Almost criminal.

NONE OF YOU GET THEIR ARTISTIC VISION YOU PHILISTINES