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NPD Sales Results for June 2009

boiled goose

good with gravy
disagree with the RPG wii comment.
the rpg platform of choice is the DS. the wii, like the 360 and even the ps3 has a few key titles but in terms of overall support on consoles, it is pretty spread out.

i do think conduit will do ok in the long run. i will like to see sales after the holiday season.

metroid prime trilogy doing better than corruption might be wishful thinking. even if the control scheme is more accesible, the games are much more difficult and "hardcore". more exploring, less linear, etc.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
VerTiGo said:
Also, the RPG argument makes me raise an eyebrow as well because honestly it seems that the Wii is shaping up to be the RPG home platform at this point. Sure, the Xbox 360 has started out being the platform for RPGs with higher profile titles but the Wii is building up a library of RPGs as well, starting out with smaller niche titles, leading into bigger players like Dragon Quest and Tales of. All you need to do to prove this is start a list wars.


You have Tales of Graces coming this Winter and then Dragon Quest X at some point in the distant future.

What else?
 

VerTiGo

Banned
amtentori said:
disagree with the RPG wii comment.
the rpg platform of choice is the DS. the wii, like the 360 and even the ps3 has a few key titles but in terms of overall support on consoles, it is pretty spread out.

i do think conduit will do ok in the long run. i will like to see sales after the holiday season.

metroid prime trilogy doing better than corruption might be wishful thinking. even if the control scheme is more accesible, the games are much more difficult and "hardcore". more exploring, less linear, etc.


The type of game that Metroid is doesn't matter as much. It offers great value, so the casual consumer as well as Metroid fans, or hardcore gamers that wanted to try the games previously, will most likely jump at the opputunity. Value is ultimately the key factor here. Not to mention that the Metroid Prime games are so badass that Nintendo can promote the shit out of this title with no worry of critical negativity.
 

ZAK

Member
I don't know how well MPT would do with casuals... it depends on what you mean by "casual." If that's someone who's barely heard of Metroid and doesn't know anything about the Prime games, they're likely to not even realize the disc has 3 games on it. And even if Nintendo pushes and advertises it as such, Wii Sports is 5 games in one. WSR is what, 12? And let's not even get into the infamous pile of third-party minigames. Point is, I think an ignorant Wii consumer would need to be given more information than "multiple games in one!" to really get the point across, and more information than that might be difficult to effectively deliver.
 

VerTiGo

Banned
schuelma said:
You have Tales of Graces coming this Winter and then Dragon Quest X at some point in the distant future.

What else?

You have already released titles like:

Rune Factory Frontier
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon
Final Fantasy II: The After Years

And upcoming pieces of software including:

Arc Rise Fantasia
Phantom Brave
Tales of Graces
Dragon Quest X
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles The Crystal Bearers
Shiren The Wanderer
Fragile
Valhalla Knights: The Eldar Saga
Monado: The Begining of the World

This itself will end up being a pretty strong line-up of games that we already know are in development and coming soon. I'm not even bothering getting into the argument of what is considered an RPG and what is not because as far as I'm concerned that's a moot point seeing that these games will pretty much cater to the same type of gamer.

Going even further into the discussion, another key genre which the Wii has an advantage in is in true horror games that aren't just action games disguised with horrorific character designs and gore.

It's a horrible misconception to say the Wii doesn't offer much for the hardcore gamer. In fact I would go further and say that it offers more variety to the hardcore gamer than either the Xbox 360 and PS3 but in regards to genres that aren't the popular action-shooter or sandbox games that top charts. It's more of a niche appeal and unfortunately, for arguments sake, many will ignore such facts to prove points which aren't entirely valid.

A more accurate argument, I would believe, that is that the Wii does offer a very good variety of hardcore games, but those more Japanese in origin. When it comes to the western-style hardcore titles, yes, it's not offering much in that regard at all, but if you've started gaming at the latest during the SNES and PSone era and have been a devout hardcore gamer since then, I can't see how the Wii can fail at provide good content.

I've always believed that despite all the shovelware a smart consumer will find something of great value to them on the platform.
 

VerTiGo

Banned
ZAK said:
I don't know how well MPT would do with casuals... it depends on what you mean by "casual." If that's someone who's barely heard of Metroid and doesn't know anything about the Prime games, they're likely to not even realize the disc has 3 games on it. And even if Nintendo pushes and advertises it as such, Wii Sports is 5 games in one. WSR is what, 12? And let's not even get into the infamous pile of third-party minigames. Point is, I think an ignorant Wii consumer would need to be given more information than "multiple games in one!" to really get the point across, and more information than that might be difficult to effectively deliver.

Well that's where the marketing comes in. I have no doubt that Metroid Prime Triology will sell to a good amount of casual consumers, seeing how the largest chunk of Wii owners are just that, because for starters, Nintendo's name itself will forever carry a lot of weight on store shelves.

And what Metroid fan on here isn't seriously going to contemplate picking up this collection when its released? Its definitely an enticing offer, even more so after playing Corruption and being thoroughly impressed with its interface.

I'm not saying that I believe I'm 100% correct about all of this but I will say that I do think that what I'm saying is valid to an extent and in all likelihood is a possible outcome that isn't too outrageous... I'll leave that bullshit to hacks like Pachter.
 

Spiegel

Member
Wii is shaping up to be the RPG home platform at this point

VerTiGo said:
You have already released titles like:

Rune Factory Frontier
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon
Final Fantasy II: The After Years

And upcoming pieces of software including:

Arc Rise Fantasia
Tales of Graces
Dragon Quest X
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles The Crystal Bearers
Shiren The Wanderer
Fragile
Valhalla Knights: The Eldar Saga
Monado: The Begining of the World

Are you serious?
 

VerTiGo

Banned
Spiegel said:
Are you serious?

Offer up a better alternative on a platform that isn't a handheld. Ultimately, an HD console doesnt' offer a much better alternative aside from the presentation argument. Especiall when considering that Arc Rise Fantasia is a "Tales of" game without Namco and just as good in quality, when Monado is coming from Nintendo's own Monolithsoft of Baten Kaitos and Xenosaga fame, when Tales of Graces is the next premier title in the franchise (and when a farmed out title like Dawn of the New World sells better than a mainline tales in its home country), and when you have Dragon Quest X, the king of all traditional RPGs exclusive to the platform.
 

Busaiku

Member
How is BlazBlue comparing to Guilty Gear?
It seems to be doing good on its own, but is it already a bigger series than Guilty Gear was?
 

Spiegel

Member
VerTiGo said:
Offer up a better alternative on a platform that isn't a handheld. Ultimately, an HD console doesnt' offer a much better alternative aside from the presentation argument.

I'd not say that PS3 has a worse upcoming JRPG lineup

- Tales of Vesperia
- White Knight Chronicles
- Demon's Souls
- Final Fantasy XIII
- Final Fantasy Versus XIII
- End of Eternity
- Final Fantasy XIV
- Last Rebelion
- Atelier Rorona
- Trinity Universe

Both consoles have a sparse lineup. Mix of big games and low budget ones coming from awful developers.
 
I think that DS jrpg should be considered a diferent genre than home console ones. I found them too limited in all the senses (graphic, cinematics, saves, length, diversity, etc). I really miss that high production PS2 (or late PSX) rpg games. Paying now, in 2009, 40$ for a SNES quality rpg (or a SNES remake in early 3D), no, thanks.

But I hope that DQ IX will change my opinion about the DS jrpg.
 

Luckyman

Banned
VerTiGo said:
I actually find all this "The Conduit" bombing talk to be complete nonsense because I can promise that the game will sell the same numbers the next month if not even more based on Wii software trends, take a look at Force Unleashed for instance, which is still selling 30,000 units plus a month according to June NPD figures (I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a million seller in NA sometime soon, if not including the Euro market already).

"The Conduit" is not "Starwars" and matching first month sales is not much of an achiviement as the bar is so low.

The game will be in bargain bins pretty soon and Sega got burned again.
 
DangerousDave said:
I think that DS jrpg should be considered a diferent genre than home console ones. I found them too limited in all the senses (graphic, cinematics, saves, length, diversity, etc). I really miss that high production PS2 (or late PSX) rpg games. Paying now, in 2009, 40$ for a SNES quality rpg (or a SNES remake in early 3D), no, thanks.

But I hope that DQ IX will change my opinion about the DS jrpg.

Well that sounds like a personal problem.

ignignokt.gif
 
charlequin #2248

You can't put the majority share of the blame on N for it.

3rd parties invested in HD. Not gonna turn that into profit early in the gen even if HD was dominate. So not many companies have money. Nintendo would be the one making most of the investment if they did partnerships and would likely want even more of any money made. And Nintendo seems overly controlling.
 

laserbeam

Banned
Just a statement on DQX. For all we know the game could be in development for a year already. I would imagine DQ9 was done for sometime and besides a small team tweaking bugs and whatever else the vast majority moved onto get X underway.

Luckyman said:
"The Conduit" is not "Starwars" and matching first month sales is not much of an achiviement as the bar is so low.

The game will be in bargain bins pretty soon and Sega got burned again.

I dont think anyone can state what the future of The Conduit is and its silly to say Sega got burned considering they are still airing Television Ads for the game. Madworld had its ads yanked after their first week when they saw sales. Conduit Ads are running for nearly a month now if not more.
 

Hcoregamer00

The 'H' stands for hentai.
There are lots of posts about companies not wanting to go to the Wii since they invested so much in HD assets. Since this assertion seems to be quite commonplace, I wonder what the possibility would have been had Nintendo had a console that was a decent HD machine.

Would Nintendo's domination this generation been absolute like the PSone and PS2?
 
Hcoregamer00 said:
There are lots of posts about companies not wanting to go to the Wii since they invested so much in HD assets. Since this assertion seems to be quite commonplace, I wonder what the possibility would have been had Nintendo had a console that was a decent HD machine.

Would Nintendo's domination this generation been absolute like the PSone and PS2?


Maybe, but it's a slippery slope. Once graphics start to become the focus of your console then inevitably the focus moves away from other things. It's arguable they may have put more focus into graphics and less focus into motion controls whether that comes from a marketing perspective or a design perspective.
 
VerTiGo said:
Offer up a better alternative on a platform that isn't a handheld. Ultimately, an HD console doesnt' offer a much better alternative aside from the presentation argument. Especiall when considering that Arc Rise Fantasia is a "Tales of" game without Namco and just as good in quality, when Monado is coming from Nintendo's own Monolithsoft of Baten Kaitos and Xenosaga fame, when Tales of Graces is the next premier title in the franchise (and when a farmed out title like Dawn of the New World sells better than a mainline tales in its home country), and when you have Dragon Quest X, the king of all traditional RPGs exclusive to the platform.

Not having Mass Effect, Oblivion, Dragon Age, Fable 2, Fallout 3, and Final Fantasy XIII hurts the Wii just a lil bit for rpg fans doesn't it?
 

Jim Gazoline

Neo Member
I expected the conduit to sell 80/90k but it managed to sell even less!

I think it'll have legs for its first full month an do 60k in July to soften the bomba.

It's too bad an ugly and average game like this made by a C-team with low budget is the benchmark to judge third party success on the Wii for the
dumbass-filled videogame industry. Pitiful.
 
Would Nintendo's domination this generation been absolute like the PSone and PS2?

In hardware sold, for sure.
In software sold, probably.
In catalog, I doubt it.

The main difference between this generation and the PSX-PS2 is that the third party support for the "looser" consoles is bigger than for the "winner" console.

It's like the home console market has split in two different markets. The HD consoles and the Wii (the definition of multiplatform for almost all developers has even change to 360-PS3-PC, ignoring the Wii existance). Different technology, different kind of products, different target. So thinking in Wii vs 360 in terms of sales is more or less like thinking in PSX vs GameBoy.
 

JoJo13

Banned
VerTiGo said:
I actually find all this "The Conduit" bombing talk to be complete nonsense because I can promise that the game will sell the same numbers the next month if not even more based on Wii software trends, take a look at Force Unleashed for instance, which is still selling 30,000 units plus a month according to June NPD figures (I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a million seller in NA sometime soon, if not including the Euro market already).

It's a horrible misconception to expect front-loaded game sales for any piece of Wii game software, even for those with high debuts, meaning Nintendo's premier Wii software (Mario Kart, Smash Bros, SMG, or their Wii __ line of game titles). You would think that those monitoring Wii's software sales every month here would understand this by now. Being a devout RPG gamer and owning both Wii and 360, I'm happy with both platforms when it comes to satiating my RPG desires.

Also, the RPG argument makes me raise an eyebrow as well because honestly it seems that the Wii is shaping up to be the RPG home platform at this point. Sure, the Xbox 360 has started out being the platform for RPGs with higher profile titles but the Wii is building up a library of RPGs as well, starting out with smaller niche titles, leading into bigger players like Dragon Quest and Tales of. All you need to do to prove this is start a list wars.

And if Nintendo wants to create Dragon Quest recognition on its platforms, as it has been lucky to obtain as of late with Square Enix remaking its older DQ games for the DS, it would be wise to encourage a port of Dragon Quest VIII for the Wii. If offered at a value price prior to the release of Dragon Quest X it could help their cause further.

Oh and one more thing, expect Metroid Prime Triology to push the first-person market on the Wii even more so than Metroid Prime Corruption itself. It offers great value to the consumer as well as a proven and more accesible control scheme than even The Conduit. The Conduit offers great controls once you tailor it to the game but for casual consumers, Retro's games offer more accesibility from the start without much tinkering. I'm expecting Triology to do better than Corruption in the long run. Ideally, in addition to High Voltage Software's efforts, it would be great to see Retro Studios take their Metroid Prime Corruption controls and apply it to an original multiplayer FPS for the platform. Once Nintendo embraces this market with a high profile title, the ball will start rolling.

Nintendo has the casual market now they need to make more strides bringing the hardcore gamer to their platform, and third parties have picked up the ball in that response. No, consumers aren't picking up their games in droves, but the evergreen sales trends are bringing these games to casuals in addition to gamers like us who will pick up Rune Factory Frontier and Overlord day one. If niche games like this continue to come, which they are, along with established Nintendo efforts like Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid Other M, Monado, and bridge games like Punch-Out!! you'll see a greater balance in software performance.

The hardcore gamer is never coming to the Wii (outside of the hardcore Nintendo fans).

Also, the Conduit is probably not going to sell well at all next month if it follows Madworld's trend.
 

Firestorm

Member
VerTiGo said:
I actually find all this "The Conduit" bombing talk to be complete nonsense because I can promise that the game will sell the same numbers the next month if not even more based on Wii software trends, take a look at Force Unleashed for instance, which is still selling 30,000 units plus a month according to June NPD figures (I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a million seller in NA sometime soon, if not including the Euro market already).

It's a horrible misconception to expect front-loaded game sales for any piece of Wii game software, even for those with high debuts, meaning Nintendo's premier Wii software (Mario Kart, Smash Bros, SMG, or their Wii __ line of game titles). You would think that those monitoring Wii's software sales every month here would understand this by now. Being a devout RPG gamer and owning both Wii and 360, I'm happy with both platforms when it comes to satiating my RPG desires.

Also, the RPG argument makes me raise an eyebrow as well because honestly it seems that the Wii is shaping up to be the RPG home platform at this point. Sure, the Xbox 360 has started out being the platform for RPGs with higher profile titles but the Wii is building up a library of RPGs as well, starting out with smaller niche titles, leading into bigger players like Dragon Quest and Tales of. All you need to do to prove this is start a list wars.

And if Nintendo wants to create Dragon Quest recognition on its platforms, as it has been lucky to obtain as of late with Square Enix remaking its older DQ games for the DS, it would be wise to encourage a port of Dragon Quest VIII for the Wii. If offered at a value price prior to the release of Dragon Quest X it could help their cause further.

Oh and one more thing, expect Metroid Prime Triology to push the first-person market on the Wii even more so than Metroid Prime Corruption itself. It offers great value to the consumer as well as a proven and more accesible control scheme than even The Conduit. The Conduit offers great controls once you tailor it to the game but for casual consumers, Retro's games offer more accesibility from the start without much tinkering. I'm expecting Triology to do better than Corruption in the long run. Ideally, in addition to High Voltage Software's efforts, it would be great to see Retro Studios take their Metroid Prime Corruption controls and apply it to an original multiplayer FPS for the platform. Once Nintendo embraces this market with a high profile title, the ball will start rolling.

Nintendo has the casual market now they need to make more strides bringing the hardcore gamer to their platform, and third parties have picked up the ball in that response. No, consumers aren't picking up their games in droves, but the evergreen sales trends are bringing these games to casuals in addition to gamers like us who will pick up Rune Factory Frontier and Overlord day one. If niche games like this continue to come, which they are, along with established Nintendo efforts like Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid Other M, Monado, and bridge games like Punch-Out!! you'll see a greater balance in software performance.
Did you just compare "Conduit" to the branding juggernauts that are Star Wars, Mario, Smash Bros, and Wii? Really? Really? Conduit isn't the game mommy picks up when she buys a Wii for Tommy. Conduit is the game forum nerds who read IGN (and specifically IGN) every day bought the day it came out.

And RPG Home Platform of choice. Right. Okay.
 

Cheez-It

Member
Jim Gazoline said:
It's too bad an ugly and average game like this made by a C-team with low budget is the benchmark to judge third party success on the Wii for the
dumbass-filled videogame industry. Pitiful.

Blunt, and perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but yeah.

The hardcore gamer is never coming to the Wii (outside of the hardcore Nintendo fans).

What is the hardcore gamer? While not a hard rule,I think anyone who doesn't own or plan on owning a Wii probably has a lower likelihood of being a hardcore gamer. A true hardcore gamer enjoys the best of gaming, and some of the best games this generation are on the Wii.
 

jtb

Banned
Jim Gazoline said:
I expected the conduit to sell 80/90k but it managed to sell even less!

I think it'll have legs for its first full month an do 60k in July to soften the bomba.

It's too bad an ugly and average game like this made by a C-team with low budget is the benchmark to judge third party success on the Wii for the
dumbass-filled videogame industry. Pitiful.

Well, it just gives you an idea of the shit developers and publishers are putting on the Wii.
 

Mithos

Gold Member
Jim Gazoline said:
It's too bad an ugly and average game like this made by a C-team with low budget is the benchmark to judge third party success on the Wii for the
dumbass-filled videogame industry. Pitiful.


NO

The bad thing is that the A- and B-teams of bigger studios have NOT been able to make an FPS that's so tremendously much better, making it possible for an C-team with low budget (HVS doing the Conduit) to compete in making an FPS-game that uses more features, and better/improved control.

So the shame is on the A- and B-teams of bigger studios in my book.


I hope people will join in on the Conduit, because its a good game.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
JoJo13 said:
The hardcore gamer is never coming to the Wii (outside of the hardcore Nintendo fans).
.

I find your likely definition of that gamer woefully inadequate.
 

Firestorm

Member
Mithos said:
NO

The bad thing is that the A- and B-teams of bigger studios have NOT been able to make an FPS that's so tremendously much better, making it possible for an C-team with low budget (HVS doing the Conduit) to compete in making an FPS-game that uses more features, and better/improved control.

So the shame is on the A- and B-teams of bigger studios in my book.


I hope people will join in on the Conduit, because its a good game.
The A and B teams are making great shooters. They're just not making them on the Wii. They're on the PC and to an extent, 360 and PS3.
 

Mithos

Gold Member
Firestorm said:
The A and B teams are making great shooters. They're just not making them on the Wii. They're on the PC and to an extent, 360 and PS3.


Like I said, the shame are on the A- and B-teams for NOT making something that's so tremendously much better for me to pick up on Wii.


If they show me better on Wii then it will be sad that "the Conduit" got so much publicity, but right now there ain't much better and thus "the Conduit" is the best we have.


And to compare the FPS-games made by C-teams on Wii with the FPS-games made by A and B-teams on PS360, well that's for me a ...... moment.


VALVE prove me right or wrong, put Half-Life 1/2/episodes on Wii and make it so good that we laugh at "the Conduit".
 

JoJo13

Banned
P90 said:
Please define "hardcore gamer".

Traditional gamers.

I.e., those that play Madden, Call of Duty, etc.

Wii is exclusively based on Nintendo's expanded audience genres and their lesser selling hardcore titles that appease their fans (Mario and Zelda)
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
JoJo13 said:
Wii is exclusively based on Nintendo's expanded audience genres and their lesser selling hardcore titles that appease their fans (Mario and Zelda)

I'm sure you are aware that those "lesser selling hardcore titles" have sold more than every single PS3 title and most 360 titles (with Halo and probably CoD as an exception).

I think its clear that their isn't much of an audience for FPS's on Wii and probably never will be. Don't think you can say the same for every single other genre besides expanded audience games.
 

Archie

Second-rate Anihawk
JoJo13 said:
Traditional gamers.

I.e., those that play Madden, Call of Duty, etc.

Wii is exclusively based on Nintendo's expanded audience genres and their lesser selling hardcore titles that appease their fans (Mario and Zelda)
:lol what. Those franchises are as casual as can be. They just specifically target the 18-35 male demographic. A hardcore gamer is someone that gets to level 9999 in Disgaea, still plays adventure games, or things like that.
 
JoJo13 said:
Traditional gamers.

I.e., those that play Madden, Call of Duty, etc.

Wii is exclusively based on Nintendo's expanded audience genres and their lesser selling hardcore titles that appease their fans (Mario and Zelda)


So casual gamers are hardcore gamers?
Ah, GAF, you never cease to amuse me.
 

JoJo13

Banned
schuelma said:
I'm sure you are aware that those "lesser selling hardcore titles" have sold more than every single PS3 title and most 360 titles (with Halo and probably CoD as an exception).

I think its clear that their isn't much of an audience for FPS's on Wii and probably never will be. Don't think you can say the same for every single other genre besides expanded audience games.

Most high selling traditional games have been from multiplatform third party efforts like Madden, Call of Duty, Gran Theft Auto, etc.

There really is never going to be any audience for FPS on the Wii because the online infrastructure is horrible, the graphics are hugely dated, and there are better options out there for serious fans of the FPS genre.

None of those issues above are hindrances for Nintendo's expanded audience genres, which is why the Wii has been able to be so successful despite being so behind the curve.
 
V

Vilix

Unconfirmed Member
JoJo13 said:
The hardcore gamer is never coming to the Wii (outside of the hardcore Nintendo fans).

Most hardcore gamers have multiple consoles. The Wii is a secondary (albeit distant secondary ie hardly ever played) console to hardcore gamers who own a PS3 or 360.
 

gerg

Member
charlequin said:
Because advancing such credit presumes its own conclusion: that Nintendo is a canny, mobile operator whose masterminds cleverly look a step forward in every situation while lumbering industry beasts Sony and Nintendo blink slowly and miss opportunities due to their ignorance, preconceptions, and/or partial focus on non-gaming market elements.

In reality, we've already seen the limitations of Nintendo's strategies begin to bear unfortunate fruit. Rather than use the Wii as an opportunity to forge a brand-new relationship with third-parties (and thereby load off a portion of software development work to relatively risk-free partners, while continuing to reap the benefits thereof), Nintendo chose to carry on in their PTSD-esque post-N64 fashion: third-parties betrayed us once, so we should never trust them again. That, in turn, contributed to a fairly significant downturn in Wii sales in Japan when combined with another problem: a drastically underperforming holiday season anchored solely by Animal Crossing and Wii Music, and a lack of software momentum following it, with no major third-party releases to fill in the gaps.

Okay.

However, I'm not trying to argue that Nintendo's strategy is perfect, but just that it has rationale behind it. I will gladly admit to the problems within the strategy that I see Nintendo as pursuing: it is slow to reach rewards that could be achieved much more quickly, and only fosters good relationships with third parties (with, say, High Voltage Studios, who have a desire to work with the technology Nintendo champions) by giving the middle finger to the industry and letting those who don't want to make games for their platforms die. Nintendo slowly forces change rather than quickly encourages it, and I imagine that there are further, more subtle inadequacies that I could think of if I were to spend more time considering the matter. However, it may be that this strategy is less expensive to pursure than alternative strategies and harbours better relationships with the companies that do eventually produce games for their platforms, because they appreciate the values that Nintendo also appreciates. I imagine that the first proposition can be successfully argued, whilst the second is yet to be seen fully.

But note that I'm not trying to portray Sony and Microsoft as "lumbering beasts" that "blink slowly and miss opportunities, etc, etc..." either. I'm reminded of what kamne-sennin (sorry if I misspell the name, btw) said not so long ago, perhaps in the thread regarding whether the Wii's declining sales were temporary or something much more foreboding. He was paraphrasing Christensen in his analysis of companies, and said that all companies can be viewed through their resources, skill and motivation (iirc). In this manner, he said that Microsoft and Sony have always had the resources and skill to pursue motion controls, but never the motivation. But this is also true of Nintendo - they have always had the resources and skill to make Halo, but never the motivation to do so. Were it not for this rather small difference, all three companies would be very similar - just it turns out simply that this difference has very big effects.

I realise I've segued into somewhat of a tangent here, so let me return more to the point. I would argue that Sony, for example, have been misguided and ignorant of what a consumer wants: they have applied their own strategy (which would appear to be to harness, for a lack of a better word, advanced technology) to the desires of their customers, which turned out to be a big mistake. Consumers don't want technology, but entertainment. Nintendo has been equally misguided and ignorant, but of what external developers would want. Clearly Nintendo thought that they would be as profit driven as they are, and would take any opportunity to make money. This has also turned out to be wrong, as companies are happy to leave money on the table if it means that they pursue less risk. This is only a rough summary: perhaps Nintendo assumed that these developers were more flexible, or had some other quality they apparently do not have. Either way, Nintendo, like Sony, applied their own strategy to another party. It turns out that Nintendo, too, has been misguided, and led to ignorance. My point: the mistakes the companies have made have been made for, in essence, very similar reasons.

In short, I'm not trying to portray Nintendo as some all-perfect company that has played everything to their advantage. Equally, I'm not trying to portray Microsoft and Sony as companies that can only make mistakes. Rather, I see all companies as being very similar in their workings.

Because that presumes that there is actually a profitability benefit from these decisions, which is largely unsupported. The almost complete lack of third-party support has already had a demonstrable effect on Wii's Japanese sales;

Perhaps their strategy regarding third-parties will have a long-term benefit that we are yet to see. I wouldn't say that I know for sure, and I certainly wouldn't say that it will work, but I also don't see why Nintendo hasn't critically evaluated their options.

the complete lack of promotion, poor storage solutions, and anemic (in the US) release schedule for VC/WiiWare have reduced the sales and relevance of these services; etc.

I often read your praise of the iPhone and its digital distribution services, which stand as quite the antithesis of Nintendo's services. My criticism of this method is that it cuts the long-tail business model short by overloading the service with a quantity of games, such that games are simply lost within the crowd, and that there is an artificial trend to lower prices that will prove unsustainable for certain companies.

Of course, I do not want to create a false dichotomy, and I imagine that a service that champions the strengths of both systems can be found. Nevertheless, I don't see why Nintendo hasn't critically evaluated the situation, and made a worse choice out of many. You seem to propose that they haven't made a choice at all.

In order to justify the idea that these decisions are actually made in support of profitability, one would have to assert, essentially, that nothing outside of the ultra-casual market can ever be profitable enough to pursue.

Clearly, Microsoft has found a market of gamers that consistently buys a large volume of games. I will think more about this matter, especially in regards to how "hardcore" the 18-35 male market actually is (I would still state that it is rather casual).

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Edit: I suggest that for the most part the 18-35 male audience contains a large casual fanbase with a central, hardcore fanbase that makes up the vast minority of the total "population", so to speak. The reason why the casual audience's buying habits may be obscured is because of the hardcore fanbase within the centre of the audience. Not to use GAF as representative of all hardcore gamers - I am very different from a lot of GAF, for example - but I imagine that the majority of hardcore gamers own a 360 and buy games for it, just like GAF. Because of interests and other factors, I would argue that very few other demographics (if any at all) have this core fanbase, but I would like to highlight the difference between correlation and causation here. Theoretically, I imagine, a soccer mom can be a hardcore gamer.

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But this assertion is not only poorly backed up by history (before this generation, even the "red ocean" gaming market managed to be fairly profitable for many participants)

The red ocean consists of the "same" casual gamers that contribute the blue ocean. Granted, they consist of extremely different demographics, which would result therefore in different tastes, etc. but I would suggest that the purchasing habits are quite similar.

but also not supported by Nintendo's selection of disruption strategy -- the purpose of which is to step outside the bounds of the existing market to find success, then leverage that success to more easily recapture upmarket customers.

And I would argue that to recapture upmarket customers does not mean to recapture the 18-35 male market, for example. Of course, there is a sliding scale of "hardcoreness" which becomes increasingly vague as you move away from each end. Nevertheless, I would imagine that one could guess that an 18-35 male knows more about games than their parents. (But do they show more interest in the games industry than their parents? Perhaps not.) However, I would still argue that Nintendo's fanbase lacks not a significant core audience - these 18-35 males - but a significant casual audience.

When this strategy is successful, it is wildly profitable -- I direct you to the DS, where Nintendo not only sees huge profits on hardware sales and hit first-party titles like Rhythm Heaven, but also continually draws in significant income from third-party hits which they need to provide little or no real support or financing to.

Has Nintendo made a concerted effort to appeal to third-parties with the DS? The best I can think of is Chinatown Wars.

The DS seems to be run on much the same philosophy as the Wii: disrupt the market, see who cares to make money, and go from there. On the DS lots of companies came to the table, but on the Wii they didn't. Perhaps Nintendo should have realised the differences between the Wii and DS that would have affected how external developers viewed the two consoles. Nevertheless, I can't see how Nintendo has acted much differently with the Wii than it did with the DS.

It really makes much more sense to apply the same standard to Nintendo that we do to other companies: look at their broader strategy and performance and evaluate their success in light of those facts. The Wii, while wildly successful, has seen significantly greater stumbles (both in terms of obvious strategic mistakes and in terms of effects on real performance) than the DS, and attributing these to a Panglossian "well, that's the best conceivable result they could have achieved" seems disingenuous when relatively low-risk options to repair these mistakes can be easily identified.

I'm not saying that Nintendo couldn't have achieved better results than it has managed to with the Wii. However, you seem to be saying that the mistakes they have been made are without reason, and I don't see why this is true.

Because the demonstrated effects of inaction have been a near-complete lack of meaningful third-party support, and a resulting fault-intolerance for scheduling problems or misplays in Nintendo's first-party lineup since there's no externally-dfeveloped software to fill in inconvenient gaps.

I'm not going to deny that Nintendo's sales in the past six months have been disappointing. However, I don't think that this will have much of an effect on their potential success, especially in the long term.

This strikes me as a fairly out-there statement. The DS is the gaming system in Japan and still selling quite a bit more dramatically than other systems in the US at the moment; it's had extremely successful core game titles sell in addition to its expanded-market stuff in both territories. The US certainly hasn't taken to it with the fierceness of the Japanese market (largely since the handheld revolution is a few years behind schedule over here) but the system has had no lack of software for users on any part of the continuum, from ultra-casual all the way to core niche gamers, for almost its entire lifespan -- something the Wii can't claim.

I wasn't referencing the Japanese market when I made the statement, so I agree that it has captured the corresponding 18-35 male market there. In regards to the American market, I do not believe that the majority of the Xbox 360 audience has a DS. In the same way that I say that the Wii is missing a significant casual audience, so too would I argue that the DS is missing a significant casual audience. It's just that this gap is made less noticeable by the system's greater success worldwide.
 

Volcynika

Member
JoJo13 said:
Traditional gamers.

I.e., those that play Madden, Call of Duty, etc.

Wii is exclusively based on Nintendo's expanded audience genres and their lesser selling hardcore titles that appease their fans (Mario and Zelda)

I'm just gonna have to say "what"
 
Oh man, I play Valkyria Chronicles , BlazBlue, Street Fighter IV on my PS3, so surely this means I shall never play Wii's casual games, like Fire Emblem or Trauma Center!
 

gerg

Member
JoJo13 said:
The hardcore gamer is never coming to the Wii (outside of the hardcore Nintendo fans).

I find it wonderfully ironic when people say that Nintendo has "lost the hardcore gamer". In fact, I would argue that Nintendo has the hardcore gamer in the palm of their hands. Yes, we (and I do mean places like NeoGAF) bitch and we moan when they take too long to localise a game, yes we curse them for not producing more AAA "hardcore" games similar to Halo and CoD, but does this effect them in any way? Does our annoyance at their long list of unlocalised games mean we don't buy their other games? No. The Super Mario Galaxies and the Metroid Primes don't seem to suffer because of Nintendo's actions - we eat them up all the same. And sure, if worst comes to worst we may sell our Wiis when it is used only sparingly, but when Super Mario Galaxy 2 comes round Nintendo knows you'll simply buy one again.

JoJo13 said:
Traditional gamers.

I.e., those that play Madden, Call of Duty, etc.

Wii is exclusively based on Nintendo's expanded audience genres and their lesser selling hardcore titles that appease their fans (Mario and Zelda)

I disagree entirely.

A "hardcore gamer" is a gamer who shows a great deal of active interest in games and the gaming industry. NeoGAF and its members are the epitome of "hardcore gamers" - we look at previews and extensive media coverage. We keep up to date with game release dates, and some of us pore over financial releases and information. To top it all off we spend hours actively browsing forums devoted to games and sharing our opinions.

The "casual gamer" will do mostly none of this. Sure, they may know when the next Madden or Halo is coming. Sure, they might pop onto IGN a few times to read a couple of previews, and watch a few videos. But will they actively follow E3? I doubt it. Will they know a lot about the majority of the games they buy? I also doubt it. They'll talk to their friends about their games, but create thousand post-long threads? No.

And this is the crux of the reason why the terms "hardcore games" and "casual games" make no sense while "hardcore gamers" and "casual gamers" make tons of sense. Afaic, the term "hardcore gamer" (and likewise, "casual gamer") is a pure business word related wholly to buying habits. But it says nothing about demographics and interests - to me, a 40 year-old soccer mum and a 17 year-old male teenager are the same "casual gamer", but of course they'll buy different products relevant to their interests, which are most likely influenced heavily by their demographic. So to use a business term to describe an interest is unworkable - to show me a "casual game" you'd have to show me a game which no hardcore gamer could conceivably enjoy.
 

manueldelalas

Time Traveler
JoJo13 said:
Most high selling traditional games have been from multiplatform third party efforts like Madden, Call of Duty, Gran Theft Auto, etc.

There really is never going to be any audience for FPS on the Wii because the online infrastructure is horrible, the graphics are hugely dated, and there are better options out there for serious fans of the FPS genre.

None of those issues above are hindrances for Nintendo's expanded audience genres, which is why the Wii has been able to be so successful despite being so behind the curve.
Then there wouldn't be an FPS on PS3 and Xbox 360; I mean, the controls are just plain horrible, paid or bad online infrastructure, bad and dated graphics (not even HD, lol), etc. The only choice for serious fans of FPS games is the PC.
 

Jokeropia

Member
JoJo13 said:
Traditional gamers.

I.e., those that play Madden, Call of Duty, etc.
:lol
JoJo13 said:
Most high selling traditional games have been from multiplatform third party efforts like Madden, Call of Duty, Gran Theft Auto, etc.
Mario Kart is every bit as traditional as the above and outsells them all 2 to 1.
 

manueldelalas

Time Traveler
Jokeropia said:
:lol
Mario Kart is every bit as traditional as the above and outsells them all 2 to 1.
Mario Kart is just a game bundled with a plastic wheel, so it doesn't count. Also it's a Nintendo game, it doesn't count.
 

JoJo13

Banned
Jokeropia said:
:lol
Mario Kart is every bit as traditional as the above and outsells them all 2 to 1.

Okay, but there's a huge difference between Mario Kart and Call of Duty. One is for kids, and one is mature. Nintendo has captured the audience of children and families which is what their titles a generally geared towards.

Do Nintendo fans really ever honestly expect the FPS genre to be huge on the Wii? I mean, come on people. It's just not going to happen.

The Wii's base was built on casual experiences and the core Nintendo franchise titles that aim for younger audiences.
 

gerg

Member
JoJo13 said:
Okay, but there's a huge difference between Mario Kart and Call of Duty. One is for kids, and one is mature. Nintendo has captured the audience of children and families which is what their titles a generally geared towards.

Maturity does not lie with content, but with how that content is handled.

CoD, one could argue, is not mature.

The Wii's base was built on casual experiences and the core Nintendo franchise titles that aim for younger audiences.

Every console's base should be built on "casual" experiences (which, fyi, do not exist).

Also, Nintendo's franchises aim for everyone. Everyone =/= younger.
 

JoJo13

Banned
gerg said:
Maturity does not lie with content, but with how that content is handled.

CoD, one could argue, is not mature.



Every console's base should be built on "casual" experiences (which, fyi, do not exist).

Also, Nintendo's franchises aim for everyone. Everyone =/= younger.

So please explain to me why the Wii is going to be the FPS platform of choice then if I'm so wrong?

I don't care about arguing over definitions of what constitutes casual, hardcore, mature, or whatever titles.
 
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