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NPD Sales Results for June 2009
- Thread starter EviLore
- Start date
JoJo13 said:
Errr..I don't think people are really arguing that point all that hard. The argument is against your seeming belief that "traditional gamers" are 16 year old kids that play Halo all day long and nothing else.
MWS Natural
Member
JoJo13 said:
Dude just say "core gamer" and people won't jump on you, same shit but for some reason it's doesn't ruffle their feathers as much.
Either way the majority of the "core gamer's" I know own Wii's anyways, for their kids and family. I have neither and Nintendo has not made a very good case for me to own one yet. I'm still waiting for more mature titles or WiiHD, whichever comes first.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
gerg said:
Clear, consice, logical arguments. Well done. You, sir, should be elevated to member status as soon as possible.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
JoJo13 said:
I can almost guarantee the same "hardcore" gamers who have played CoD have played MKWii.
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
JoJo, you need to let this one go.
Nintendo has no doubt taken a more casual approach, but I think we're using the term casual in the wrong way.
Mario Kart isn't casual.
One of my fondest gaming memories is playing Mario Kart 64 for hours with mates. Mario Kart 64 is the game that turned me into a multiplatform player/owner after being a hardcore Sega fanboy from 8 years old onwards.
Most of Nintendo's games have 'broad appeal' but I wouldn't call most of those traditional Nintendo games like Mario Kart casual.
But then again, Call of Duty, Madden and Halo are all broad appeal games. They sell to many, and at various times, have brought in new gamers, despite the 'mature' content (except in Madden).
I'm surprised people are still upset over the Wii to be honest. It's not really doing anything different to what the PS2 did, except it's given a new control option. I barely played my PS2, and I barely play my Wii. So I'm consistent to say the least.
Nintendo has no doubt taken a more casual approach, but I think we're using the term casual in the wrong way.
Mario Kart isn't casual.
One of my fondest gaming memories is playing Mario Kart 64 for hours with mates. Mario Kart 64 is the game that turned me into a multiplatform player/owner after being a hardcore Sega fanboy from 8 years old onwards.
Most of Nintendo's games have 'broad appeal' but I wouldn't call most of those traditional Nintendo games like Mario Kart casual.
But then again, Call of Duty, Madden and Halo are all broad appeal games. They sell to many, and at various times, have brought in new gamers, despite the 'mature' content (except in Madden).
I'm surprised people are still upset over the Wii to be honest. It's not really doing anything different to what the PS2 did, except it's given a new control option. I barely played my PS2, and I barely play my Wii. So I'm consistent to say the least.
Vilix said:
Thank you.
JoJo13 said:
Except if you're talking about demographics, then why bring up "hardcore gamers"? I'd gladly agree that a lot of hardcore gamers are 18-35 males, but would strongly disagree to the statement that all 18-35 males are hardcore gamers. Correlation is not causation. Afaic, theoretically anyone from any demographic (barring the youngest of all children) can be a hardcore gamer.
Furthermore, Mario Kart appeals to a much wider audience than Call of Duty does. Part of the audience that plays Mario Kart also plays Call of Duty, and visa versa. Whether or not Mario Kart is as successful at appealing to the same audience to which Call of Duty appeals is debatable, but I don't see how the former doesn't cater at least partially to this audience.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Jojo13 said:
manueldelalas said:
I'm not going to join in on Jojo's demographic argument, but this argument makes my head hurt every time I see it.
Developers/publishers determine which platforms are the strongest for each genre.
The Wii's hardware power, lack of storage solution for DLC/patches, and Nintendo's lack of online infrastructure are the reasons devs don't even bother with the platform whatsover for shooters.
The HD consoles have become an increasing focus for developers of shooters because they offer similar performance to PCs that PC devs have to scale for anyway, there are more day 1 buyers than the PC, there is less piracy than PC, there is precedent for charging for DLC in the console space, and being closed platforms they can deliver a more stable, universal online experience.
Controls are a moot point, because the majority of FPS fans have grown accustomed to playing with dual analog and accept it as the standard. Motion controls or kb/mouse are blu-ray to dual analog's DVD. Even if they are objectively superior, very few people care enough to change.
Simply being more popular won't ever change this over the course of this console generation. Otherwise the DS would be the primary console for EVERY genre, and it clearly isn't.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Not entirely sure of why The Conduit was anticipated as being on the inflection point for hardcore productions or 'serious' FPS releases on Wii. It might be the first to lay claim to the intention of appealing to that crowd, but I think all of this talk about it being a real preview of what the userbase on the Wii will accept going forward is extremely premature.
The first 'hardcore' RTS releases on console this generation, just like the first 'hardcore' FPS releases on console didn't all do well and their failure to capture the market the same way they had their way with the PC crowd, as I recall, didn't mean they couldn't do better in subsequent releases, both in terms of sales and in an objective assessment of their quality of execution. They had to be followed on by better understanding what works and how it should work on consoles.
But there's clearly more to it than just whether or not something meets some standard. The Conduit doesn't have anywhere near the same level of marketing as your average X360 or PS3 FPS title, nor is there reason to believe that the Wii has a userbase who has been greatly anticipating such titles because those titles simply haven't existed in great numbers on the platform nor has there been a breakout release that has drawn people to the genre and platform, like a Halo has done for MS consoles.
Given how important the platform is to every large publisher out there, seeing how popular FPS titles are on every other home platform, and knowing that the standard controllers can support the genre well enough, I think it's only a matter of time before 'hardcore' FPS titles can do well on the platform and do it pretty frequently. It might take joining it with an already popular license, or it being an already popular FPS franchise, but the chances of it, as a genre, doing well on Wii, I think, are very good. Just don't expect to overtake or sit alongside any of Ninty's heavy hitters.
The first 'hardcore' RTS releases on console this generation, just like the first 'hardcore' FPS releases on console didn't all do well and their failure to capture the market the same way they had their way with the PC crowd, as I recall, didn't mean they couldn't do better in subsequent releases, both in terms of sales and in an objective assessment of their quality of execution. They had to be followed on by better understanding what works and how it should work on consoles.
But there's clearly more to it than just whether or not something meets some standard. The Conduit doesn't have anywhere near the same level of marketing as your average X360 or PS3 FPS title, nor is there reason to believe that the Wii has a userbase who has been greatly anticipating such titles because those titles simply haven't existed in great numbers on the platform nor has there been a breakout release that has drawn people to the genre and platform, like a Halo has done for MS consoles.
Given how important the platform is to every large publisher out there, seeing how popular FPS titles are on every other home platform, and knowing that the standard controllers can support the genre well enough, I think it's only a matter of time before 'hardcore' FPS titles can do well on the platform and do it pretty frequently. It might take joining it with an already popular license, or it being an already popular FPS franchise, but the chances of it, as a genre, doing well on Wii, I think, are very good. Just don't expect to overtake or sit alongside any of Ninty's heavy hitters.
Funny you should mention that, BMX for the Ps2, GC, and Xbox was censored in two consoles because it had topless girls.
GameCube wasn't one of them.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/news-1115864
Also, I'm not sure what this 'core franchises' that aim for kids was aimed at.
IIRC, Mario Kart has always been a party game. And UR MR GAME OF THE YEAR (Galaxy) was actually pretty challenging for core gamers.
Care to point some examples?
DangerousDave
Member
Can anyone tell a racing game, in this generation, more casual than Mario Kart? If Mario Kart isn't casual, I suppose that there will be plenty of them.
Yes, I suppose that this single fact (that may happen by an infinity external reasons that don't have relation with the userbase) automaticly converts the Wii userbase in more hardcore than the 360 one.
MrBubbles, Gerg. I don't know if Juniors can look at other people's post histories, but if you could, you would know there is no point in debating with Jojo13. The guy is embarrassingly console loyal to his Ps3, in his spin to try and create positives, to his irrational hate of the outselling gaming console. Don't know if either of you were lurking when we had Private Hoffman around, but jojo13 would make him proud.
Jaded Alyx
Member
Jesus Christ.Milabrega said:
I want you to pay me money, right now, for making me remember.
Damn it.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
There's a couple of Kart racers on the Wii made by EA (my sims and some other shit) that are definitely more casual than MK; and being "the most casual in a genre" is different from being a "casual game overall".DangerousDave said:
Can anyone tell of an FPS game, in this generation, more casual than Halo? Halo for babies confirmed.
2 Minutes Turkish said:
I agree that Mario Kart used to not be casual, but certainly Mario Kart Wii has gone in that direction. Just look at the plastic steering wheel peripheral and the ability to use automatic transmission. Given that you don't even need to utilize power steering to play the game I think takes away a lot of the challenge.
DangerousDave said:
I'm not saying that, all I'm saying it's interesting to note that the console maker with the 'family' stigma (be it a good thing or bad) can also whip out controversial stuff like that while Sony and Microsoft back away and say no.
Although this gen Nintendo is afraid of anything, so my point was more of a 'KNOW YOU KNOW" type of deal. I just didn't like his attitude.
Current gen Nintendo would rather make a new iteration of the DS and Wii before even thinking of publishing Captain Rainbow or Fatal Frame 4 in the Americas.
Milabrega said:
Oh, noted. I used to be a sole Wii owner myself for 3 years before buying a Ps3 and now recently a 360 and PC. I'm not sure why people like him can't be more mature considering the entry-free for Ps3 is so high one would at least be more financially stable and level-headed to spend 300-600USD on a gaming machine.
DangerousDave said:
I, for one, am not trying to deny that Mario Kart is a very accessible game with a large casual audience. However, I don't see why this then makes it a "casual game". If have a large casual audience makes a game casual, then GTA, CoD and Halo are some of the most casual games around. In fact, I'd argue that any game that sells above, say, a million copies in a single market (be it the Japanese, American or European markets) has a large casual audience. This definition also runs into trouble when we consider the Opiate-championed game "Go". It is one of the most played games in the world (if not the most played game in the world), and yet I imagine the vast majority of its players would be casual video-game players. And yet, the game is also one of the deepest games in the world, infinitely more so than Halo or CoD or GTA. I suspect that when people say that a game is "casual" they mean that it is incredibly deep, so the definition also runs into trouble here.
Afaic, the whole situation could be dissolved if people substituted "accessible" for "causal" and "niche/relatively inaccessible" for "hardcore". Mario Kart is an accessible game; GTA is less so. These terms say nothing about a game's depth, and can account for all gaming experiences I care to imagine.
Jaded Alyx said:
Oh, I remember Private Hoffman - I've browsed the TRUE 1:1 motion discussion thread.
But at the very least, arguing against a brick wall will get me to re-evaluate my views, which will inevitably prove useful. Sometimes, getting angry in a debate or discussion can be good. I've had the unfortunate instance of arguing against someone who doesn't quite believe (and understand, I imagine) in evolution. Although it was intensely frustrating, I came out of the experience more affirmed in my views than I had been before.
DangerousDave
Member
Also, being one of the most hardcore racing games in a platform (that is full of crappy or cartoon-licensed racing games) don't make it a hardcore game.
If we have to consider the casualism as the simplicity and accessibility of a game (so anybody, even nongamers, is able to play it without any practice), Mario Kart Wii enters in here. You know if a racing game is hardcore when almost all the players crash in their first run in the first turn because they didn't brake enought.
And I'm not saying that Mario Kart is a bad game. Mario Kart is a GREAT game. A lot of people don't know to differentiate casual from crappy, and get's furious if you say that a game is casual (i don't know if it's the case, no offenses).
DangerousDave said:
Why do you automatically equate simplicity with accessibility?
Look at chess: it's one of the most accessible games created. All you need to play it are the board, pieces (often sold together), a pair of hands, a friend, and a flat surface. And yet there are more moves in chess than there are atoms in the universe (10^120, to be exact). Go is even more accessible, and apparently even deeper. Both of these games are much more accessible than Halo or CoD, and yet much, much more deep.
So, clearly, simple =/= accessible.
DangerousDave
Member
Ok, true. "Rule simplicity" is more accurate.
ViperVisor
Member
Few games are strictly 'hardcore' or whatever you want to call them.
You would of thought years ago that RPG was that. Pokemon changed that.
MMORPG was dehardcored by WoW. It now has both types and the between playing like most games today. Madden and COD both have peasants playing them.
Hard to think of a game that is niche. Most have died or changed since they have become more costly to make.
You would of thought years ago that RPG was that. Pokemon changed that.
MMORPG was dehardcored by WoW. It now has both types and the between playing like most games today. Madden and COD both have peasants playing them.
Hard to think of a game that is niche. Most have died or changed since they have become more costly to make.
DangerousDave said:
Which seems like another way of saying "accessible", to me...
I don't understand why some people (and, honestly, I don't mean to pick on you here) find it very difficult. Mario Kart is accessible. CoD is less accessible. Let's all hold hands and enjoy playing good games.
Mikey Jr.
Member
Alright, there is no way I can read through 100 pages of this thread.
Can someone just answer me one simple question:
Did Infamous sell well enough for there to be a sequel?
I see it at around 400k. Is that good for Sucker Punch. Infamous is my GOTF, so I really hope they have enough motivation to do a sequel.
Can someone just answer me one simple question:
Did Infamous sell well enough for there to be a sequel?
I see it at around 400k. Is that good for Sucker Punch. Infamous is my GOTF, so I really hope they have enough motivation to do a sequel.
I think our definition of casual is too narrow instead of too broad. I mean, if you said casual, most of us would think: Wii Sports, Wii Fit, other "non-games". But, Halo, Call of Duty, Madden, GTA, these are all games that have sold around 10 million copies, and I would easily consider all of these games to be "casual" games. They don't bring in non-gamers, they just bring in casual gamers, the gamers that buy games a couple times a year, don't know what dlc is, probably don't hook up to Live or PSN, etc.
I would consider Mario Kart CASUAL, along with the Wii ______ lineup casual, but they are more than that, they are also accessible. These games are both appealing to the casual gamer, but also are accessible to the everyday person who never touches video games. Brain Age, Nintendogs, these aren't casual games (they're pretty far from games in my opinion), but they are accessible, which is what makes the Wii popular. It's not that they are taking the casual gamer audience (which is comprised of the people that buy GTA, Mario, Halo, etc.) but rather, they are taking the audience that doesn't play games, because it's most accessible.
I would consider Mario Kart CASUAL, along with the Wii ______ lineup casual, but they are more than that, they are also accessible. These games are both appealing to the casual gamer, but also are accessible to the everyday person who never touches video games. Brain Age, Nintendogs, these aren't casual games (they're pretty far from games in my opinion), but they are accessible, which is what makes the Wii popular. It's not that they are taking the casual gamer audience (which is comprised of the people that buy GTA, Mario, Halo, etc.) but rather, they are taking the audience that doesn't play games, because it's most accessible.
Mikey Jr. said:
Close to 800k shipped to retailers worldwide by now, I'd imagine.
800k x $35 per disc = $28 million
55 Sucker punch employees x $75,000 per employee per year (higher than it probably is, but i'm exaggerating to account for things like overhead) x 3.5 years in development = around $14 million. Hard to account for marketing costs.
That's just a rough estimate, but it's easily made a decent return on the investment.
DangerousDave
Member
About this, I think the deepness of a game don't convert it in a hardcore game... if the player is not required to dig in the deeps of the rules.
For example, Disgaea is a very hardcore game. It requires you to check the rules (thousands of them) and bound them as much as possible to progress. So the game is not accessible for a lot of users.
Hot Shots Golf has a lot of deepness. You can customize the attributes of the characters, use different objects or balls to optimize your skills in that specific course, play with the effects, reversal shots, etc. But anyone, even a non-gamer, can play normally, simply shooting when the strength mark is in the desire position, and close to the center, and advance easily or even finish the game, so it's a casual game.
The same concept casual and hardcore is not referring to the game, is referring of the approach that the target has with the game, or, more concrete, if the player is needs to make an effort, to adapt to the rules, to play the game.
For example, Disgaea is a very hardcore game. It requires you to check the rules (thousands of them) and bound them as much as possible to progress. So the game is not accessible for a lot of users.
Hot Shots Golf has a lot of deepness. You can customize the attributes of the characters, use different objects or balls to optimize your skills in that specific course, play with the effects, reversal shots, etc. But anyone, even a non-gamer, can play normally, simply shooting when the strength mark is in the desire position, and close to the center, and advance easily or even finish the game, so it's a casual game.
The same concept casual and hardcore is not referring to the game, is referring of the approach that the target has with the game, or, more concrete, if the player is needs to make an effort, to adapt to the rules, to play the game.
DangerousDave
Member
Well, the inFamous ending implies a sequel. And probably they will go first for that than for a Sly 4.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I'd like to see them successfully fuse the genre's.AniHawk said:
It can still be an open(ish) world with highly linear platforming elements.
It's in their hearts I know it. I'd prefer a smaller platforming covered city in whatever their next "matoor" game is. Don't lose sight of what makes you great Sucker Punch.
DangerousDave
Member
gerg said:
Well, I think it's a different concept. A more accessible game should be a game where the player don't get lost, where the interface menus are clean and easy to use, where the player don't need to read 64 pages of manual because the rules are so clear that the player will be able to extrapolate the cases to get a general rule, and he will be able to apply in other similar cases.
So accessibility, for a developer (even the one that makes the most complicated tactic-rpgs with infinity of rules), is something good. A game that is not accessible, that their rules are not well explained, that the menus are confusing, is a failure from the game design point of view. The success of Halo, or Goldeneye, was to make accessible a kind of game that it wasn't in console.
Casual is not exactly the same.
But is ok. There is not a exact definition of what is or isn't casual (except in the most extreme cases), and I don't want to spam this thread with this kind of discussion (and get a ban), that can be eternal (the discussion and the ban
). So, I'm pleased to discuss with you about this, and I hope that we'll continue the discussion in a more appropiate thread. I added you in the buddy list.I agree. As someone who values skill/challenge over presentation/graphics, this is a shame for me, but it hardly affects me anyway. The highest skill quotient available for such games can be found on PC, and that's not affected. Essentially, I just wish more people shared my value for challenge and skill, but that isn't happening. The answer to my wish is, "too bad, Opiate."
This is a really poor example, Sho_Nuff. You shouldn't have brought it up.
Look at Japan: despite the system's clear technical inferiority to literally every platform currently available today, it eventually became the JRPG juggernaught because all the games were made for it. And guess what? People bought it. And bought lots of JRPGs.
It's an absolutely clear example that practically any system can provide a viable ecosystem for a genre if it's given clear and unwavering support. I'd argue that any system that gets the exclusive support of Irrational, Valve, Infinity Ward, etc. will be the shooter king, just as any system that gets Dragon Quest, Tales of, Level 5 games, and a plethora of smaller JRPGs get that crown.