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[AndersTheSwede]

Ok, good point :lol

But still, if Rock Band was competing with GH3 on Wii, it would've have outsold the 360 version by as much, if at all.

I think its also important to note that GHII came out a relatively short while ago on the 360. When I heard the ship date for GHIII I remember thinking "already?!" A lot of prospective buyers for GHIII may have just stuck with II. The differences between them are negligible.

So that + rock band spreading people out = missed top ten.

Not trying to downplay the Wii versions success, just explain the 360 versions respective weakness.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

No, it says Microsoft's marketing campaign to move beyond the original Xbox demo is a big fat failure.

The X360 demographic is the best demographic to have.

 

[mm04]

I'd be interested to know what real PSN download numbers look like. How many people actually use it etc. Maybe they need to add content as they get it like Xbox Live because a game like Uncharted actually had a demo available before the game's release so there is no excuse for the lackluster sales (I bought it btw).

Either the Uncharted demo wasn't as good people think or the vast majority of PS3 owners aren't logging in or they have no idea that Thursday is content day. Maybe most PSN users log on sparingly. It would be nice to know how many people actually downloaded the Uncharted demo. As you know, when a demo has high download numbers on Xbox Live, it's almost always a precursor of good sales. So which is it, GAF? Are people just not logging onto the PSN store or does Uncharted just look too generic for the average PS3 owner?

 

[jgwhiteus]

Seems to say the 360 is biased towards games that rank in the top 10.

Well, there's no doubt that M-rated games are leading the sales charts, but I'm pretty sure you need more than the revenues from just the top 10 games to turn a profit. Basically, Microsoft's (and its publishers') concern should be that its mega-successes tend to be of a very specific type - AAA, huge marketing budget, M-rated "hardcore" games. If you're a publisher/developer who can afford to produce that type of game, then it seems you're golden on the 360, even if Microsoft never sells another system (excluding expensive flops like Stranglehold, K&L, etc.)

But what if you're not a mega-publisher or well-funded developer - i.e. the vast majority of developers out there? What if you want to produce a family game? A puzzle game? A game that mainly targets female gamers? What if you don't have a huge budget? Where do you go? Last gen, most of those developers and publishers went to the PS2 (or the GBA), because it was so dominant and widely-appealing that it covered multiple demographics. This gen it seems they're going to Wii and DS, and if Microsoft ever wants to approach the PS2's success, it'll have to fight for that demographic as well (which I realize it's trying to do with Arcade and stuff like Scene It, but it takes more than a repackage and one casual game to change the perception of the system).

Even if these small and mid-level developers aren't as high-profile as the EA's and Activision's of the world, and their games never appear in the top 10, they're still important to the ultimate success and profitability of any console.

 

[Zzoram]

The X360 demographic is the best demographic to have.

It's the most desirable demographic in all other forms of media, so expect some in-game billboard ads to rake in serious dough.

 

[chespace]

Sorry for asking again, but does anyone know how NFS Prostreet did? I'm very interested in knowing if it bombed or not (hopefully it did)

Ditto. Not the bomb part, because I am really just curious about its numbers since its formula change.

 

[Zzoram]

Well, there's no doubt that M-rated games are leading the sales charts, but I'm pretty sure you need more than the revenues from just the top 10 games to turn a profit. Basically, Microsoft's (and its publishers') concern should be that its mega-successes tend to be of a very specific type - AAA, huge marketing budget, M-rated "hardcore" games. If you're a publisher/developer who can afford to produce that type of game, then it seems you're golden on the 360, even if Microsoft never sells another system (excluding expensive flops like Stranglehold, K&L, etc.)

But what if you're not a mega-publisher or well-funded developer - i.e. the vast majority of developers out there? What if you want to produce a family game? A puzzle game? A game that mainly targets female gamers? What if you don't have a huge budget? Where do you go? Last gen, most of those developers and publishers went to the PS2 (or the GBA), because it was so dominant and widely-appealing that it covered multiple demographics. This gen it seems they're going to Wii and DS, and if Microsoft ever wants to approach the PS2's success, it'll have to fight for that demographic as well (which I realize it's trying to do with Arcade and stuff like Scene It, but it takes more than a repackage and one casual game to change the perception of the system).

Even if these small and mid-level developers aren't as high-profile as the EA's and Activision's of the world, and their games never appear in the top 10, they're still important to the ultimate success and profitability of any console.

If you're a small developer, release an Xbox Live Arcade game for 800 points and get tons of sales. The Xbox community is very online-focused, we know they don't mind buying Arcade games or DLC because Guitar Hero 2 sold 300,000 downloads of the first DLC released. Over 50,000 people apparently paid $2.50 for horse armor.

 

[Speevy]

If we're being perfectly honest here, the reaction to last year's Xbox 360's numbers was one of impatience.

We were waiting for the great market leader to come galloping through the gate, and aside from the Wii, that never happened.

One year ago, no one imagined that Microsoft's "good enough, I guess." hardware sales and "OMGWTF fantastic" hardware sales would in fact become the standard that Sony would fail to reach.

But here we are. A market leader that isn't selling the highest budget software. A second place contender that is moving practically all the software. And a machine which has a problem, which is that hardly anyone wants it, and if I spent days researching I couldn't come up with a great reason as to why that is.

I'll try though.

At first, the PS3 was going to be seen as a technologically superior system with all the games you remember playing on your PS2, and can get on no other system.

The problem with the graphics part is that no one really cares. The second problem is that Sony apparently created their development tools in Latin or something.

The other problem is obvious. This is the multiplatform generation, and since there's

A) No HD system that can possibly sell above 50 million
and
B) The Xbox 360's ability to move software is phenomenal.

Sony can kiss most third party exclusives goodbye.



But those aren't the real problems, are they?


The problem is that the PS3 launched under a cloud of negativity, about its price, about its lack of games.

Sony outmatched Microsoft last generation by selling a system that just had games.

To one-up itself, Sony decided that they needed a system that does everything else first, mainstream be damned.

I used to say that the Xbox 360 didn't have enough features, not enough hard drive space, but this only made people realize the system was for gamers. And now that's the focus of their marketing. The system with the games you want to play.

I used to say (well, still do) that the Xbox 360 was a piece of junk hardware. Now it's just a PS2 with a disc read error problem, a utilitarian machine for everyone.

Nintendo saw spikes of success last generation by keeping its identity (the release of Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Mario Kart), but Sony doesn't really have that.

The best Sony can hope for is for the Wii to lose favor among the public, and for HD gaming in general to take off the way the PS2 and Xbox moved software around 2003-2004.

Otherwise, we'll just see a big snowball of gloomy outcomes, and a Sony system cut short in a few years time.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

I'd be interested to know what real PSN download numbers look like.

Another intersting point stemming from this that we will never know. Do weekly DLC content from XBLA, PSN and Wii VC affect sales? If somehow everyone jumped onboard and bought Wipeout on the PSN, that would actually make a blip on a "real NPD" chart, won't it?

 

[Gahiggidy]

nm.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

I'd be interested to know what real PSN download numbers look like. How many people actually use it etc. Maybe they need to add content as they get it like Xbox Live because a game like Uncharted actually had a demo available before the game's release so there is no excuse for the lackluster sales (I bought it btw).

Either the Uncharted demo wasn't as good people think or the vast majority of PS3 owners aren't logging in or they have no idea that Thursday is content day.

The demo did nothing for me. Or to be precise, it did nothing to drive me towards buying the game. It was pretty, but the demo area ranks among the uglier of the environments in the game. It felt schizophrenic, as if the game didn't know what it wanted to be; a shooter, a platformer, and adventure game? The combat also felt almost prohibitively difficult. All of these issues were found to be non-issues in the full game, but the demo very nearly caused me to avoid the game.

 

[Fafalada]

The question here is if developing multiplatform games on Xbox 360 first and then porting to Ps3 is the most efficient strategy.

It's not.
The only thing less efficient then that, is taking PC as primary platform, then porting down to 360, and then PS3.

It's still not as bad as last gen though.
Last gen the most efficient strategy was to use PS2/GC as base, and port up. The few cases that tried the opposite (Xbox->PS2/GC) were mostly complete disasters (as in, the lowend console versions were borderline unplayable), with a few exceptions that turned "ok" (as in, below average standards of the platforms).
Even if XBox did have 5x the userbase, there was no sensible multiplatform strategy to choose it as the primary platform.

In present time, ports to PS3 won't be completely horrible, but it's still wasting of resources.

Ditto. Not the bomb part, because I am really just curious about its numbers since its formula change.

Considering Underground averaged like 3milion for hollidays on PS2 alone (and over 4 on all platforms), I think not seeing ProStreet in top 10 safely says it DID bomb (relative to its series expectations at least).

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

If you're a small developer, release an Xbox Live Arcade game for 800 points and get tons of sales. The Xbox community is very online-focused, we know they don't mind buying Arcade games or DLC because Guitar Hero 2 sold 300,000 downloads of the first DLC released.

Geometry Wars on the Arcade is a prime example.

The 360 covers huge developers and small developers well. Its the middle ground people that are left behind. Ultimately they can't afford HD assets and can't generate the sales nessecary to stay afloat.

 

[beelzebozo]

i had swapped my 360 with a friend to play his ps3 and the uncharted demo and was severely underwhelmed. it was the reason i was going to buy the system, but the demo summarily convinced me i could wait until well into next year

 

[Zzoram]

It because they don't know what else to spend thier money on... they litterally have no interests beyond xboxin'.

I have a DS Lite for Cooking Mama which I play with my girlfriend or on the bus, and I play PC games (I bought Oblivion, Orange Box and The Witcher for PC in recent memory). I have an Xbox 360 and for some reason unknown to me, I've bought more 360 games in 1 year than I have bought PC games in the last 3 or 4 years. It's like there's a disease in the box.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

I have a DS Lite for Cooking Mama which I play with my girlfriend or on the bus, and I play PC games (I bought Oblivion, Orange Box and The Witcher for PC in recent memory). I have an Xbox 360 and for some reason unknown to me, I've bought more 360 games in 1 year than I have bought PC games in the last 3 or 4 years. It's like there's a disease in the box.

I'm pretty sure he was jokin'

 

[Zzoram]

Geometry Wars on the Arcade is a prime example.

The 360 covers huge developers and small developers well. Its the middle ground people that are left behind. Ultimately they can't afford HD assets and can't generate the sales nessecary to stay afloat.

Then release $40 games, that price turns meh/ok games into sales.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

i had swapped my 360 with a friend to play his ps3 and the uncharted demo and was severely underwhelmed. it was the reason i was going to buy the system, but the demo summarily convinced me i could wait until well into next year

Cue the sales pitch... or maybe not. You can wait until next year. It's a very good game, and the demo is a pretty poor snapshot of the game... but it's nothing I'd run out and buy a system for.

 

[Sean]

I'd be interested to know what real PSN download numbers look like. How many people actually use it etc. Maybe they need to add content as they get it like Xbox Live because a game like Uncharted actually had a demo available before the game's release so there is no excuse for the lackluster sales (I bought it btw).

Either the Uncharted demo wasn't as good people think or the vast majority of PS3 owners aren't logging in or they have no idea that Thursday is content day. Maybe most PSN users log on sparingly. It would be nice to know how many people actually downloaded the Uncharted demo. As you know, when a demo has high download numbers on Xbox Live, it's almost always a precursor of good sales. So which is it, GAF? Are people just not logging onto the PSN store or does Uncharted just look too generic for the average PS3 owner?

There was a huge "Uncharted demo" banner on the PS store, no one could've missed it. In fact it was still showing up for me the other day. It's not like a ton of PS3 demos are being released either for that one to get lost in the shuffle.

 

[watership]

PC CRYSIS (M) 87K
PC UNREAL TOURNAMENT 3 (M) 34K

Oh my God. I don't believe those numbers.

 

[Speevy]

i had swapped my 360 with a friend to play his ps3 and the uncharted demo and was severely underwhelmed. it was the reason i was going to buy the system, but the demo summarily convinced me i could wait until well into next year

Gameplay-wise? Visually, Uncharted paves practically any game on current gen. systems.

 

[Zzoram]

I'm pretty sure he was jokin'

I know, but my example is supposed to dictate how the Xbox 360 has the power to make you buy games, even when you don't buy games as often on other platforms.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Oh my God. I don't believe those numbers.

believe

 

[Gahiggidy]

It's the most desirable demographic in all other forms of media, so expect some in-game billboard ads to rake in serious dough.

Sorry, thats bullshit... young "women" are the most sought after demo for marketers.

 

[Zzoram]

Gameplay-wise? Visually, Uncharted paves practically any game on current gen. systems.

That's obviously not enough, as much as people claim that's all Gears of War had to it. Co-op campaign is what made that game huge.

 

[beelzebozo]

Gameplay-wise? Visually, Uncharted paves practically any game on current gen. systems.

definitely gameplay-wise. graphically it's beautiful, but i wanted more indiana jones/prince of persia and less "gears of war jungle"

 

[luoapp]

Geometry Wars on the Arcade is a prime example.

The 360 covers huge developers and small developers well. Its the middle ground people that are left behind. Ultimately they can't afford HD assets and can't generate the sales nessecary to stay afloat.

I think they will be bought by big companies like EA or AB. Of course, we are talking about western company, right?

 

[HK-47]

Can anyone whip up a decent list of PSP million sellers? I know both GTAs, Ridge Racer, SW: Battlefront and both Monster Hunters are there but I'm not that familar with the numbers for the machine.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Gameplay-wise? Visually, Uncharted paves practically any game on current gen. systems.

You'd be suprised how many people miss the small details in the game. Most people don't even notice that his pants get wet after you walk in water until I mention it.

 

[namor7]

Yeah, that would be better, another fucking WWII shooter. What really would be better is COD5: Future Warfare. And not fighting humans. Imagine what these guys could do with an alien fighting theme.

WW2 or modern, the whole real world war FPS genre is to me the most awful thing that's ever happened to video games. i cant believe people continue to sink money and time into the stuff, well made or not.

 

[jgwhiteus]

If you're a small developer, release an Xbox Live Arcade game for 800 points and get tons of sales. The Xbox community is very online-focused, we know they don't mind buying Arcade games or DLC because Guitar Hero 2 sold 300,000 downloads of the first DLC released. Over 50,000 people apparently paid $2.50 for horse armor.

True, XBLA and PSN might eventually be good options, especially for smaller developers, but online/DLC still has its limitations and is in its relatively early stages. Also, I'm not sure it's an attractive option for "mid-level" publishers - it doesn't cover the entire userbase, and you don't get the same exposure as from being on a retailers' shelves.

Let's take the example of Disney (again - sorry). How do you want to release your latest version of a Hannah Montana game? On the shelves of Walmart and ToysRUs, in physical form where you know your customers are likely to shop, or expecting a 9-year old to ask her mother to log on and download it from the Internet (assuming they have a broadband connection in the first place). Even the "hardcore" don't get their games online completely when given the option (e.g. Warhawk).

If Microsoft wants to attract these publishers to get the broadest possible demographic, it'll have to do more than tell them to "go on XBLA". And I think Microsoft realizes this as well.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

There was a huge "Uncharted demo" banner on the PS store, no one could've missed it. In fact it was still showing up for me the other day. It's not like a ton of PS3 demos are being released either for that one to get lost in the shuffle.

Don't you have to go to the store to see it? Say what you will about XBLM's advertising, it is 24/7 telling you about 360 games, every where on every blade.

 

[chespace]

Cue the sales pitch... or maybe not. You can wait until next year. It's a very good game, and the demo is a pretty poor snapshot of the game... but it's nothing I'd run out and buy a system for.

I felt like the demo was pretty representative of the final game. You got a little of the nice cutscenes, you got a little platforming (which, proportionately, was pretty minor in the overall gameplay experience), and you got mostly combat (2 meaty firefights) which is exactly what the game is -- a never-ending shootout. And they left out the vehicle bits -- probably for the better too.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

definitely gameplay-wise. graphically it's beautiful, but i wanted more indiana jones/prince of persia and less "gears of war jungle"

There is definitely more of that in the full game, maybe not as much as you would want but definitely more than the demo suggests. That's not to say it's not combat-centric, but there is a good chunk of adventure moments.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

I know, but my example is supposed to dictate how the Xbox 360 has the power to make you buy games, even when you don't buy games as often on other platforms.

Its because live is filled with a ravenous horde of people who jump from game to game like the hot blonde virgin who just walked in the door at an orgy.

The day the game comes out my friends list instantly switches and my message box fills up with "DUDE GET THIS GAME". Peer pressure is a dangerous thing, but at least the guys on live have great taste in games.

 

[painful fart]

I think its also important to note that GHII came out a relatively short while ago on the 360. When I heard the ship date for GHIII I remember thinking "already?!" A lot of prospective buyers for GHIII may have just stuck with II. The differences between them are negligible.

So that + rock band spreading people out = missed top ten.

Not trying to downplay the Wii versions success, just explain the 360 versions respective weakness.

It can´t possibly be like that. Nobody reasoned like that when the 360 Madden outsold the PS2 Madden earlier in the fall.

 

[MWS Natural]

Hmm... I wonder how the PS3 will do once Prologue hits...

...and the cycle begins anew.

 

[duffey]

My jaw hit the floor seeing the DS + Wii numbers in addition to the COD4 360 ones, holy god.

December should be mighty interesting!

 

[Zzoram]

Its because live is filled with a ravenous horde of people who jump from game to game like the hot blonde virgin who just walked in the door at an orgy.

The day the game comes out my friends list instantly switches and my message box fills up with "DUDE GET THIS GAME". Peer pressure is a dangerous thing, but at least the guys on live have great taste in games.

I'll admit this is true. Every time I check my friend's list, everyone has moved on to the next big game, and it makes me want them more. I know some more casual 360 owners who me and a few of my buddies introduced to games like Bioshock and Mass Effect, that otherwise wouldn't have been on their radar, and they loved them.

 

[Zzoram]

It can´t possibly be like that. Nobody reasoned like that when the 360 Madden outsold the PS2 Madden earlier in the fall.

How is that a comparison? It's not like the PS2 had a Madden game in March to mess up the PS2 numbers.

 

[Meier]

No, it says Microsoft's marketing campaign to move beyond the original Xbox demo is a big fat failure.

Despite the intent behind the quote, there's a lot to be said about this. They've at least made a concerted effort even if it hasn't panned out completely.

I'll say this though, my girlfriend enjoys playing or watching Arcade games (and Rock Band) whereas she hated basically all things Xbox before. XBLA has done wonders in terms of changing her opinion, but I can't imagine she'd ever buy a system (if she didn't have access to mine) just to play casual games.

 

[painful fart]

How is that a comparison? It's not like the PS2 had a Madden game in March to mess up the PS2 numbers.

Don´t be a moron.

 

[Zzoram]

Despite the intent behind the quote, there's a lot to be said about this. They've at least made a concerted effort even if it hasn't panned out completely.

I'll say this though, my girlfriend enjoys playing or watching Arcade games (and Rock Band) whereas she hated basically all things Xbox before. XBLA has done wonders in terms of changing her opinion, but I can't imagine she'd ever buy a system (if she didn't have access to mine) just to play casual games.

My sister plays XBLA Hexic/Joust, as does my female cousin. My female cousin also plays Guitar Hero.

 

[Gahiggidy]

Despite the intent behind the quote, there's a lot to be said about this. They've at least made a concerted effort even if it hasn't panned out completely.

I'll say this though, my girlfriend enjoys playing or watching Arcade games (and Rock Band) whereas she hated basically all things Xbox before. XBLA has done wonders in terms of changing her opinion, but I can't imagine she'd ever buy a system (if she didn't have access to mine) just to play casual games.

What do you mean by "intent behind the quote"?

 

[Zzoram]

Don´t be a moron.

It's a valid point. A sequel 6 months later is bound to be less successful than if it had more breathing room, especially in a genre that isn't as sales-happy as FPS. Just look at the bomb that was PGR4, 6 months after Forza 2. PGR3 did huge numbers and PGR4 was well reviewed and looked visually better.

But ya, that doesn't explain everything. More likely, people were buying CoD4+AC+ME and didn't have money for another $100 game. That plus they were buying 311K of $170 Rock Band.

 

[Meier]

It can´t possibly be like that. Nobody reasoned like that when the 360 Madden outsold the PS2 Madden earlier in the fall.

In regards to GHIII sales on the PS2: There's absolutely nothing else to buy at this point if you're a PS2-only owner. The argument about the length of time between the release date's is flawed regardless though as Rocks the 80s obviously did not hurt sales of GH3 by any substantial amount and for all intents and purpose, it was a brand new game to a lot of purchasers.

With the 360 though, there's just so many amazing, "AAA" games to choose from, that it's bound to cause a title that's been on the market for a month or two to take a hit compared to a brand new title. On the PS2, Guitar Hero III is still the flavor of the month (and will be for who knows how long) if you will.

 

[Meier]

What do you mean by "intent behind the quote"?

Well, I just meant that your bias is well-documented. I love you for it though. Don't ever change.

 

[Zzoram]

In regards to GHIII sales on the PS2: There's absolutely nothing else to buy at this point if you're a PS2-only owner. The argument about the length of time between the release date's is flawed regardless though as Rocks the 80s obviously did not hurt sales of GH3 by any substantial amount and for all intents and purpose, it was a brand new game to a lot of purchasers.

With the 360 though, there's just so many amazing, "AAA" games to choose from, that it's bound to cause a title that's been on the market for a month or two to take a hit compared to a brand new title. On the PS2, Guitar Hero III is still the flavor of the month (and will be for who knows how long) if you will.

Rocks the 80s isn't a real GH game to a lot of people I know. Did it sell well? I don't know anyone who owns it, and those who have tried it didn't like it.

 

[mm04]

I'll admit this is true. Every time I check my friend's list, everyone has moved on to the next big game, and it makes me want them more. I know some more casual 360 owners who me and a few of my buddies introduced to games like Bioshock and Mass Effect, that otherwise wouldn't have been on their radar, and they loved them.

It's not just that. As bad as it may sound, since a lot of us suckers pay for Live, we make it a fricking point to look for new content all the time and to download and try every demo possible. Like it or not, things like that help boost software sales.

 

[Sean]

Don't you have to go to the store to see it? Say what you will about XBLM's advertising, it is 24/7 telling you about 360 games, every where on every blade.

That's a good point. The PS Store is hidden out of the way in it's own submenu while XBLM has it's own dedicated blade and then ads on each blade. I think that makes a huge difference.

I'm betting Sony is also ashamed of the PS store (just seems like a total rush job to me and still hasn't been fixed a year later), they are probably working on overhauling it before giving it more prominence.

But still, in this case, the Uncharted demo is being advertised six weeks after it was released. Anyone who checks the PS store every once in awhile is bound to find it.