NVIDIA Helping Sony with PS3 GPU

Kseutron said:
well this might be the Bad news

the ps3 is gonna be available one year later just to "match" the xenon ? if so, sony is so d00m3d

clearly, it's gonna be on par with the xbox2, but not much more powerfull

I think there has been info that PS3 will be playable at E3 2005. Has this changed ?
 
ourumov, what makes you think the NVIDIA GPU in the PS3 will be anymore capable of producing real-time GC graphics than that of the ATI card in the XB2. As for the 2 years statement that means 1 year sitting round the table lashing out contracts and such like. Seems to me that all machines will graphically look virtually the same. Which puts MS early release in the west in perspective. What ever way you colour it all machine are using PC graphics technology next gen
Nothing, nothing...I was just dreaming ;) .

Just suppose, like all people here suppose, we have a system with 2 PEs, one for the CPU and one for the GPU.
In my mind the GPU is absolutelly free from T&L load. It just does pixel operations.
Anyways we are talking about 256-256 GFLOPS from each part.
XBOX on the other hand will feature a 80 GFLOP CPU and an ATI GPU. This ATI pirece should deliver 432 GFLOP in order to equal PS3 figures. 423 GFLOP...not NVFLOPS or ATIFLOPS or OURUFLOPS... Highly unlikely.

Then again why Sony should bother so much about PS3 when they could be on par with XB2 with just one PE and a silly GPU (just a rasterizer with a couple of functions like the GS) ? Here is where the equation fails... I have no answer.
 
cybamerc said:
It's been speculated that Sony would team up with Nvidia ever since Jen-Hsun called PS3 a "miracle machine". This news hardly comes completely out of the blue.
You wouldn't happen to remember when that quote was uttered? I don't need a link, I beleive you, I just would like to know the timeline of events.
 
shpankey said:
Why are you comparing 2000 GPU hardware to 2004 PS2 software?

Probably because that 2004 PS2 software is running on 1999 PS2 hardware, making the comparison valid ;)
 
mashoutposse, I only say there will be little or no difference as many people including yourself tend to think that games like GT4 look better than any racer on Xbox (which is a fair point). Xbox has graphics technology 1.5 years ahead of the PS2. With the next gen, we noe know that all the machines are using PC solutions for GPU and they will release within 3-6 months of each other. So if the gap for 1.5 is small the gap for say 4 months will be tiny, its nothing to do with machine support, I will be queuing for PS3 on launch date like many others, but if this was a PR by MS it would have been roundly slated. For the record it reads to me that a Nvidia GPU solution is going to be used in a machine containing cell technolgy, but hey that how I've read it.
 
shpankey said:
Why are you comparing 2000 GPU hardware to 2004 PS2 software?

Because "2004 PS2 software" is still running on the same unaltered 2000 PS2 hardware.

PC graphics hardware wasn't even close to matching PS2 performance, much less exceeding it.
 
Freeburn said:
Probably because that 2004 PS2 software is running on 1999 PS2 hardware, making the comparison valid ;)
Not when he was quoting me when I was refering to hardware.


mashoutposse said:
Because "2004 PS2 software" is still running on the same unaltered 2000 PS2 hardware.

PC graphics hardware wasn't even close to matching PS2 performance, much less exceeding it.
He was talking hardware (or at least I understood it that way). If he was meaning software then my bad.
 
The combination of the revolutionary Cell processor and NVIDIA's graphics technologies will enable the creation of breathtaking imagery that will surprise and captivate consumers."

and u don't blast your current roadmap and all associated work out the wazoo unless u have a much better alternative.
 
The pr doesn't give a definintive answer about either way and it really depends on how you read it. It's just that the supposed NV50 cancellation last week may simply be a coincidence....or not :p
 
seanoff said:
and u don't blast your current roadmap and all associated work out the wazoo unless u have a much better alternative.

I think that is what has a lot of us thinking in the same direction.

Canning the NV48, due to it being a '20Mhz' refresh was understandable, no-one has really put forward a similar justification for the NV50 being canned, most sites that reported this seemed to add a "wtf are they up to?" or a "they must have something else but what???" element to the end of such articles, although there were a few that put forward the notion that the whole ATI/WGF relationship has affected Nvidias roadmap.

Interesting to speculate, but ultimately it's stil going to be a while before anything is really known about what they are up to.
 
Pug said:
mashoutposse, I only say there will be little or no difference as many people including yourself tend to think that games like GT4 look better than any racer on Xbox (which is a fair point). Xbox has graphics technology 1.5 years ahead of the PS2. With the next gen, we noe know that all the machines are using PC solutions for GPU and they will release within 3-6 months of each other. So if the gap for 1.5 is small the gap for say 4 months will be tiny, its nothing to do with machine support, I will be queuing for PS3 on launch date like many others, but if this was a PR by MS it would have been roundly slated. For the record it reads to me that a Nvidia GPU solution is going to be used in a machine containing cell technolgy, but hey that how I've read it.

If you consider the current crop of consoles "practically the same" graphically (and I share that sentiment), then I agree that the PS3 and XBOX 2 will likely be just as close.

Still, based on what we've seen, it looks like NVidia completely abandoned their previous plans for future GPUs, and I can't help but think that this project has something to do with it...
 
acklame said:
The pr doesn't give a definintive answer about either way and it really depends on how you read it. It's just that the supposed NV50 cancellation last week may simply be a coincidence....or not :p

Well, it would have just said "NVIDIA is developing the GPU for the next generation PlayStation system". But it's doesn't. So there is clearly a collaboration in "development" (not just "impementation") terms between Sony and NVIDIA.

IMO of coz.
 
There's no way NVIDIA is going to be using cell I think, at least according to this press release. CELL IP is owned by Sony, and IBM and there's no way Sony could alone make the decision by themselves to disclose CELL information to NVidia.
 
thorns said:
There's no way NVIDIA is going to be using cell I think, at least according to this press release. CELL IP is owned by Sony, and IBM and there's no way Sony could alone make the decision by themselves to disclose CELL information to NVidia.

You're right, maybe Sony made the decision with IBM :p
 
It just doesn't fit. Assuming CELL is doing all the T&L, then the GPU just needs to be a really fast rasteriser/shader. How are the current PC cards set up? Are they separate T&L chips, or all on one?

PC chips seem focussed on resolution and T&L, offloading CPU load. I don't see thats what Sony wants.

Maybe its dangerous to speculate on the architecture as it could be significantly customised for console needs.


As for a CELL GPU, I don't see that in the release, just different reading of the words. Although Sony *could* use some kind of two-way licensing to get NVidia onboard with lower costs, and in return get inroads into the PC graphics card game.
 
shpankey said:
He was talking hardware (or at least I understood it that way). If he was meaning software then my bad.

If the PS2 is generating graphics that far exceed what is possible with even the highest end PC hardware of its time, then what is it exactly that makes that PC hardware superior? Hardware is more or less defined by its software, and graphically, there is a wide gulf between PS2 and, say, a Geforce 256.
 
acklame said:
You're right, maybe Sony made the decision with IBM :p

Then why no mention of IBM, or NVidia "licensing" CELL technology explicitly? Do they really want to open up all their research to Nvidia?
 
Well, there is another part of the PR that leads to believe this is gonna be a Cell/NVIDIA technologies based GPU. Where it says:
"The agreement will encompass future Sony digital consumer electronics products."

I hardly believe Sony will use a plain NVIDIA GPU in their consumer electronics division.
 
mashoutposse said:
If the PS2 is generating graphics that far exceed what is possible with even the highest end PC hardware of its time, then what is it exactly that makes that PC hardware superior? Hardware is more or less defined by its software, and graphically, there is a wide gulf between PS2 and, say, a Geforce 256.
Not when it's on the PC platform. PC software never fully takes advantage of the hardware. You know that. And wasn't that the Geforce 4 Ultra era anyhow?
 
thorns said:
Then why no mention of IBM, or NVidia "licensing" CELL technology explicitly? Do they really want to open up all their research to Nvidia?

What does "This collaboration is made under a broad, multi-year, royalty-bearing agreement" mean? Not attacking your assumptions, just asking for clarification.
 
As correctly assumed by the skeptics here, the two-year number is sleight of hand. As of one year ago, the collaboration between nVidia and Sony was apparently not finalized, and rather was being explored as one of two or more PS3 GPU possibilities. Sony attempted but apparently failed to develop a graphics solution in-house, and as I understand it was approached by nVidia with the suggestion that a competitive solution would require shader and other technologies Sony was ill-equipped to deliver on par with ATI's Xbox2/NR chips.

From what was said by an nVidia insider at the time, Sony's in-house solution was set to be little more than a dramatic polygon count evolution of the PS2's graphics chip, scaled in rough approximation to the PS1-PS2 jump, with relatively few new hardware effects (and perhaps lacking support for emergent display technologies). The theory behind nVidia's discussions with Sony was that the Japanese hardware and software development communities had generally missed the boat on the various next-generation shadowing, texturing, shading, and geometry technologies incorporated into ATI and nVidia chipsets, and consequently had fallen behind Western developers on the software development curve for such features.

Now that all of the major console hardware players have partnered with Western graphics chipmakers, the expectation is that the next generation (or two) of software will begin to show more dramatic visual gains than the last one did. EA's recent "screenshots", for example, aren't too far off from reality except in the specifics.
 
TTP said:
Well, there is another part of the PR that leads to believe this is gonna be a Cell/NVIDIA technologies based GPU. The agreement will encompass future Sony digital consumer electronics products."

I hardly believe Sony will use a plain NVIDIA GPU in their consumer electronics division.

Good point, especially since Sony has said repeatedly that they will use Cell for other consumer electronics.

But honestly we are all just making a bunch of speculations and assumptions right now.
 
TTP said:
What does "This collaboration is made under a broad, multi-year, royalty-bearing agreement" mean? Not attacking your assumptions, just asking for clarification.

Probably that Sony is going to be paying nvidia royalties for each PS3 sold? That's what I understand from it anyway.
 
shpankey said:
Not when it's on the PC platform. PC software never fully takes advantage of the hardware. You know that. And wasn't that the Geforce 4 Ultra era anyhow?

No, Geforce 2 era if that. I know the Gforce3 was not out yet. Why argue if PC software never fully takes advantage. Performance doesnt matter if nothing ever takes use of it.
 
Then why no mention of IBM, or NVidia "licensing" CELL technology explicitly? Do they really want to open up all their research to Nvidia?


IBM/Toshiba gain from cross licencing with NVidia because the more chips they sell the more money comes in, the more money comes in the more the development costs get spread, the less risk involved.

U think IBM and Toshiba did this to help sony. No they did it to make money. If they can get someone like Nvidia using their tech it make all the more sense and they all make more money. Nvidia if the chip is a beast, IBM/Toshiba because they get some royalties from every chip, sony because they get Nvidias help for a dimunition of their royalties from the chip and the PS3 gets a fully resolved graphics development environment.

Fuck!! How do u think business operates. Its not a collection of fucking fanboys.
 
I don't know about other digital devices. For a TV for example, a single CELL would be plenty for fancy UI stuff in software. you don't need billions of polys/sec. So a GPU would be overkill.

Maybe for Vaios down the line? Or a future rev of PSX.
 
DSN2K said:
Panajev hinted at this a very long time ago, wonder if he knew anything. :)

Considering how quiet Nvidia has been and all the hints in the past, speculating it wouldn't have been that hard.

EDIT: Thank you very much cybamerc!
 
Not when it's on the PC platform. PC software never fully takes advantage of the hardware. You know that. And wasn't that the Geforce 4 Ultra era anyhow?

That's true. But do you really think that a GF256 compares to the PS2, regardless?

And yes, the PS2 came out almost simultaneously with the GF256, a full three generations back from the GF4 series.

Freeburn said:
Super-tinfoil beanie conspiracy theory time:

NV48 & NV50 cancelled due to success in prototyping a Cell-based Geforce chipset, to be unveiled at a later date. ATI heard to be vomiting profusely in the corporate washroom upon receiving the news.

That's what I'm thinking.
 
thorns said:
Probably that Sony is going to be paying nvidia royalties for each PS3 sold? That's what I understand from it anyway.

yeah, or maybe that royalties will come from those (PC manufacturers) who will adopt the Sony/Nvidia technology as well.
 
Pug said:
If the GPU is using Cell technology why haven't they made that abundantly clear?

Because appeasing the curiousity of 1000's of internet-addled gamers & would-be anal cysts is a low priority to them?

Because in a world of intense competition you hold your cards close to the chest until you need to show them?

Because we're just shooting crap out of our mouths because speculation is, like, fun?

Pick one.
 
Pug said:
If the GPU is using Cell technology why haven't they made that abundantly clear?

'cos it could have been like saying that Sony/IBM where going to develop chips for Nvidia perhaps?

probably a PR from Nvidia could help understanding what's goin' on.
 
Pug said:
If the GPU is using Cell technology why haven't they made that abundantly clear?

Why would NVidia reveal something like that while they are currently embroiled in a hard fought GPU war and are looking for every advantage?

If the speculation in this thread is on track, I'm sure that NVidia would love ATi to continue along its path of development until it is too late.
 
i think the strangest part of the announcement is this:

The powerful custom GPU will be the graphics and image processing foundation for a broad range of applications from computer entertainment to broadband applications. The agreement will encompass future Sony digital consumer electronics products.

This leads me to believe that the GPU is a combination of next gen GeForce tech & Cell architecture, but not necessarily that next gen GeForce would be cell based.

ok, i think i should stop talking out of my ass.
 
mashoutposse:

> If the speculation in this thread is on track, I'm sure that NVidia would love ATi to
> continue along its path of development until it is too late.

:lol
 
Awesome! I personally thought that Sony would be going with someone on the outside to help provide for a super-VPU, but nVidia's involvment is surprising! Should be incredibly interesting to see how the two systems (Xenon and PS3) and the future of Nvidia's GPU line turn out. Heh...poor Nintendo...hopefully, Revolution will be all that it's cracked up to be, as far as revolutionary design goes...'cause it looks squarely out of the visuals race at this point.
 
mashoutposse said:
Why would NVidia reveal something like that while they are currently embroiled in a hard fought GPU war and are looking for every advantage?

If the speculation in this thread is on track, I'm sure that NVidia would love ATi to continue along its path of development until it is too late.

I'm sure that Ati's been aware of this for a while. Stuff like this can't be a secret to everybody.
 
MightyHedgehog said:
hopefully, Revolution will be all that it's cracked up to be, as far as revolutionary design goes...'cause it looks squarely out of the visuals race at this point.
ATI's West Coast team (ie, the best engineers at ATI) is doing the Revolution GPU. And has been working on it for at least as long as Nvidia has been working with Sony.
 
You people with your negativity, reserve judgement until we know what type of hardware it is (Revolution) or what the hardware might be capable of (Xbox 2 and PS3). All this doom and gloom based on such limited information is getting to be silly.
 
TekunoRobby said:
You people with your negativity, reserve judgement until we know what type of hardware it is (Revolution) or what the hardware might be capable of (Xbox 2 and PS3). All this doom and gloom based on such limited information is getting to be silly.
Well, not to totally derail this or anything, but I just don't hold out much hope for Nintendo on the visual capability end...they always seem to end up with generally middle of the road capability, relative to their competitors.
 
As acklame said, this is a VERY interesting part:
The powerful custom GPU will be the graphics and image processing foundation for a broad range of applications from computer entertainment to broadband applications. The agreement will encompass future Sony digital consumer electronics products.

Sure hearing about the Nvidia and Sony venture will be awesome for the PS3 but I'm really excited to see what else Sony does with the GPU for other products and what Nvidia brings from that venture to the PC sector.
 
Top Bottom