natjjohn
Member
Take the both sides language out.
Trump and his admin is the only reason this is happening. Period. There is no both sides.
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NYT: How Trump Came to Enforce a Practice of Separating Migrant Families (Because of Stephen Miller)
- Thread starter natjjohn
- Start date
Take the both sides language out.
Trump and his admin is the only reason this is happening. Period. There is no both sides.
Max Legroom
Banned
The actual fact is that the Trump administration created this situation unilaterally. They have said publicly that they think this will help accomplish their goals. The other actual fact is that the Democrats proposed a bill to end it but the Republicans won’t support it because they want to use it as leverage to wring other concessions.
You may feel that both sides want it to continue but facts don’t care about your feelings.
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Cato
Banned
I think there are three sides:
Trump and the white house.
Republicans in congress and senate
Democrats in congress and senate
With both sides I mean Democrats and Republicans in senate and congress.
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camelCase
Member
He didn't even say that. He said both sides use it to push an agenda. The "other-side" was, and is, jumping for joy that they could exploit the plight of detained children.
natjjohn
Member
As was posted, your claim doesn’t appear to be fact based. Dems have crafted legislation to stop it, but no republicans will back it to this point in time. My opinion is the reason they haven’t is they will follow trumps lead to barter children for political concessions.
Again, facts don’t back this. This only exists because of trump and his admin. Legislation has been crafted to explicitly prohibit trump from continuing this, but no republican support. Again, my opinion is they willow follow trumps lead to barter children for political concessions.
Cato
Banned
I don't think my post disputed the fact that Trump did cause this.
We could wait until Trump decides to undo this. But that might take time or even never happen.
My comment is rather about the Democrats and Republicans in the Senate.
The Senate can very quickly legislate and reverse Trumps action here. Not only that, by legislating they could even
prevent Trump from ever doing it again. That would be a desireable outcome, yes?
Now, sadly, Democrats and Replublicans do not show great effort in actually fixing this once and for all.
Last time it was Republicans that refused to work with the Democrats proposal.
This time it is Democrats that refuse to work with a Republican proposal.
While this political posturing goes on, the children remain where they are. Sad.
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Max Legroom
Banned
It’s rarely desirable to reward hostage-takers. They’ll take more hostages next time.
Cato
Banned
If I read this post right it kind of illustrates my point.
With "hostage takers" I take you mean either the Trump administration or the Republicans in the Senate.
Trump would work better here since he caused it but since I am talking about the Dems/Reps in the Senate I assume you mean the Republican Senators with "hostage takers".
"They will take more hostages next time" I read as if we shouldn't do it or next time will be worse, i.e. which also can be framed as if we don't do it we will be rewarded in the future.
Basically, this could be read to mean :
"If we don't co-operate with them now, there will be rewards to reap in the future."
Which is very similar to my entire point.
This really reads very partisan and that it is better not to find a solution right now because it will benefit us later?
I.e. putting the principles of not working with the "enemy" before the interests of the affected children.
Meanwhile the children remain where they are.
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Max Legroom
Banned
The hostage takers are both Trump and the Republicans. They want to use this as leverage. They tried to do it with DACA and the Dems largely caved, but then they wanted even more. Your position appears to be that the Democrats should give the Republicans anything and everything they want and if they don’t then they don’t care about the families. That logic would justify literally any Republican demand. That isn’t working with the “enemy,” that’s enabling a bad faith abuser.
I would also note there is no Republican proposal.
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Max Legroom
Banned
DP
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pramod
Banned
Yes America is such an evil hellhole. That's why millions of people keep trying to come here knowing of the possible consequences.
rokkerkory
Member
How do u know they know the consequences? The folks in the detention center interviewed had no idea that they would be separated.
This is the most cowardice defense of this I can think of. Grow a backbone and stand up against this.
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Probably cheaper than opening our borders like an open flesh wound.
And since when do liberals care about costs?
Oh this is rich
Stop trying to break our immigration laws
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That's the part I still don't get, why can't they touch the children?
Well I mean historically this isn't new.
African Americans
Native Americans
Japanese Americans
LaughingStock
Member
Is Trump kidnapping these families just to separate them? Or are these people willingly trying to illegaly cross the boarder, getting caught and facing the consequences?
I mean, it's sad and parents shouldn't be separated from their children. The easy solution is just not cross the border illegaly.
I mean, it's sad and parents shouldn't be separated from their children. The easy solution is just not cross the border illegaly.
These aren't Concentration Camps. These are holding shelters for criminals. CRIMINALS. They're lucky they get shelter. They get Shelter, free food, showers, etc where as they should be getting turned at the border.
Manus
Member
What about articles like this that show this stuff has been going on way before Trump's presidency? Where was the outrage than?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.49a252a497ec
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc7912d3beca
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.49a252a497ec
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc7912d3beca
TheWatcher
Banned
Communists always using children to push an agenda. They should be separated and detained. Further, I would have drones patrol the Mexico US border and initiate strafing runs on caravans of 'refugees'. This is getting out of control.
bigedole
Member
Auf wiedersehen.
DKehoe
Member
What communists are you talking about?
natjjohn
Member
As has been pointed out numerous times, your examples are different and not the same. We are talking about families showing up and being needlessly separated.
What’s going on, is a trump presidency exclusive.
Do you support it?
Manus
Member
It's not different and yes I do support it. People that break our laws should be punished simple as that.
DasPenguin
Member
If you get rid of all illegal immigrants, who will pick up the slack for the jobs they are currently doing? Something tells me that those toothless uneducated rednecks don’t come running down the hill any time soon to wash dishes or work on farms, for example.
America really has turned into a farce. Arguing with allies, bombing countries for no reason (though that has been going on for decades now), making friends with Putin and other dictators, complaining about immigration and spending massive amounts of money on the military, yet you can’t find money to educate poor people or for healthcare. And the country has a two party system that is corrupt to the core.
Land of the free and the greatest country in the world. Irony at its highest form.
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Reserrrved
Banned
I wish we knew some hard numbers for context. I want to know what the percentage of kids that get detained came with their parents.
LaughingStock
Member
Reserrrved
Banned
She's right. My grandparents came from Mexico to clean toliets. It's all they could do. sarcasm btw
bucyou
Member
2k were taken out of 12k total (10k were unaccompanied), so under 20%
rokkerkory
Member
These families are literally WALKING hundreds if not thousands of miles to seek safety. What makes you think separating families will deter that?
TheWatcher
Banned
"Toothless, uneducated rednecks". Nice! These types of words will definitely mend the racial barriers in America.
They make that trek becuase they know if they sneak in they are home free.
rokkerkory
Member
Yeah sneaking in is easy peasy I am sure.
It's easy enough that millions are already here.
natjjohn
Member
How is it the same?
As has been shared, families have tried the legal way, but entries have been blocked preventing asylum seekers from going through the process. When barred to the point of no food/water, they attempt to cross and then get picked up.
It seems Trump attempted to use children as ransom, but it appears it has failed thankfully. Policy seems to be coming to an end.
You mean they attempt to break the law. No one is guaranteed asylum.
TheWatcher
Banned
rokkerkory
Member
Over how long of period of time for millions to be here? You act like this is as easy as walking down the street to the local store.
natjjohn
Member
They can’t attempt to apply for asylum. If they applied, kept the family together during the process, even if the asylum request was denied this would be a non-story as that is typical (not everybody gets it granted). Instead, they seemingly tried to use children as ransom.
Doesn’t matter now as Trump is doing a complete 180 on his own policy. No backbone thankfully when nobody but a small subsection of folks were buying the lies he was dealing.
rokkerkory
Member
Google it. Plenty of hits on why folks are fleeing. If the building is on fire, I am sure you'll run out of it.
Ransom for what? To convince them to not try to break our laws again.
As usaul, we were reward those who break our laws, and then act perplexed why caravans come to our borders.
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natjjohn
Member
Ransom for wall funding and other political points. Trump and admin outright has said as much before the 180 (congress needs to pass wall funding in response to the child separation policy).
Again, doesn’t matter as seemingly Trump has done a 180 and distanced himself from his own policy. I’m sure he’ll continue to lie and blame the Dems for his own policy to gaslight his ardent supporters.
There are no wars, and they aren't real refugee. They claim to be running from gang violence and poverty
"Ransom" for defending our own borders and upholding our own laws. Wow.
I'm sure Democrats will continue to cry about "the children" while doing nothing. It's what they do best.
Vicetrailia
Member
Trumps signage still enables indefinite detainment.
Trump signs an EO against his own policy.
Trump signs an EO against his own policy.
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natjjohn
Member
You seem to be arguing against points that aren’t being made. Defending our borders and upholding our own laws, has nothing to do with securing wall funding (I thought Mexico was paying for that? Another of his many lies).
As has been pointed out, they had drafted simple legislation to make Trump’s policy illegal, but no republicans would sign on for it...
Again, doesn’t matter, Trump reversed on his own policy because again, only a small subsection supported the ransom tactics.
It’s odd he was able to stop his own policy when he said he couldn’t... another lie. Or that only congress could stop it, another lie.
Gaslighting to the extreme and it’s just sad people continue to eat it up as evidenced through this thread and others. When the same debunked points keep getting brought up again and again.
rokkerkory
Member
So there has to be a war for there to be enough reason for you to flee? I am sure all those countries don't have drug cartels running everything, corrupt governments, etc. They are all 1st world countries too.
