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NYT: Newest Scam in US Health Care, Taking Advantage of ER Patients Unable to Say No.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/u...-in-network-but-the-doctors-are-not.html?_r=2
When Jennifer Hopper raced to the emergency room after her husband, Craig, took a baseball in the face, she made sure they went to a hospital in their insurance network in Texas. So when they got a $937 bill from the emergency room doctor, she called the insurer, assuming it was in error.

But the bill was correct: UnitedHealthcare, the insurance company, had paid its customary fee of $151.02 and expected the Hoppers to pay the remaining $785.98, because the doctor at Seton Northwest Hospital in Austin did not participate in their network.

“It never occurred to me that the first line of defense, the person you have to see in an in-network emergency room, could be out of the network,” said Ms. Hopper, who has spent months fighting the bill. “In-network means we just get the building? I thought the doctor came with the E.R.”

Patients have no choice about which physician they see when they go to an emergency room, even if they have the presence of mind to visit a hospital that is in their insurance network. In the piles of forms that patients sign in those chaotic first moments is often an acknowledgment that they understand some providers may be out of network.

But even the most basic visits with emergency room physicians and other doctors called in to consult are increasingly leaving patients with hefty bills: More and more, doctors who work in emergency rooms are private contractors who are out of network or do not accept any insurance plans.

When legislators in Texas demanded some data from insurers last year, they learned that up to half of the hospitals that participated with UnitedHealthcare, Humana and Blue Cross-Blue Shield — Texas’s three biggest insurers — had no in-network emergency room doctors. Out-of-network payments to emergency room physicians accounted for 40 to 70 percent of the money spent on emergency care at in-network hospitals, researchers with the Center for Public Policy Priorities in Austin found.

“It’s very common and there’s little consumers can do to prevent it and protect themselves — it’s a roll of the dice,” said Stacey Pogue, a senior policy analyst with the nonpartisan center and an author of the study.

While patients have complained of surprise out-of-network charges in hospitals from some other specialists — particularly anesthesiologists, radiologists and pathologists — the situation with emergency room doctors is even more troubling, patient advocates say. For one thing, patients cannot be expected to review provider networks in a crisis, and the information to do so is usually not readily available anyway. Moreover, the Texas study found that out-of-network fees paid to emergency room physicians eclipsed the amount of money paid to those other specialists.

When emergency medicine emerged as a specialty in the 1980s, almost all E.R. doctors were hospital employees who typically did not bill separately for their services. Today, 65 percent of hospitals contract out that function. And some emergency medicine staffing groups — many serve a large number of hospitals, either nationally or locally — opt out of all insurance plans.

As more insurance plans contract with narrower networks of doctors to form offerings tailored to the Affordable Care Act, insurers have acquired greater leverage in cutting payments to physicians. While an insurer would have little power to drive a hard bargain with a major hospital that the company needs in its network, it can often pick and choose among physicians, excluding some or offering rates so low that many doctors say their practices are unsustainable.

Dr. Jeffrey Bettinger, chairman of the reimbursement committee of the American College of Emergency Physicians, said that out-of-network emergency room doctors were an unusual phenomenon and expressed doubt that the practice was widespread. When it occurred, he added, it was typically because of insurers’ unwillingness to pay doctors a reasonable rate compared to what they pay hospitals for their services.

The average salary of an emergency room physician was $311,000 in 2014, rising from $247,000 since 2010 — a period when many other types of doctors experienced declines in salaries, according to Merritt Hawkins, a physician staffing firm.

Hospital charges for emergency care vary widely. A recent study found that hospital charges for a visit involving a serious medical issue in California varied between $275 and $6,662, just for the facility fee. “Much of the variation we observe may in fact be entirely random,” wrote the authors, emergency physicians at the University of California San Francisco Medical Center. But that variation often does not directly affect patients, since most hospitals participate in the big insurance plans in their area, and patients tend to know which are in their network, so the insurer covers most of the bill.

But it is a different matter with emergency room doctors who bill out-of-network fees, experts say.

When Dr. Michael Schwartz’s daughter went to an emergency room in the Philadelphia suburbs for a reaction to a medication in 2010, she went to an in-network hospital, Bryn Mawr. She was there for a few hours on a cardiac monitor. While most of her care was covered by his family’s insurer, Capital Blue Cross, a bill of more than $2,000 from the out-of-network E.R. physicians for cardiac monitoring was not.

“I tried to negotiate with the physician group, but they wouldn’t budge,” said Dr. Schwartz, a pediatrician, who ended up paying $1,200, the amount his plan required for his share of out-of-network care. “It was ridiculous. I’m a physician and I understand how this works. There was no sign saying, ‘Our physicians are out-of-network.’ ”

Likewise, when Luke Adami, 6, sustained a gash to his chin on a playground, his parents rushed him to an emergency room at an in-network facility, Valley Hospital in New Jersey. The parents, Greg and Madeleine Adami, asked about a plastic surgeon to sew him up. Mr. Adami recalled: “You go to a hospital that’s in network, your kid’s bleeding. What are you going to say?”

The nurse did not mention that the surgeon she called was out of network and would charge a separate fee. Neither did the plastic surgeon say anything about costs when he came in.

He billed the Adamis $4,878 for eight stitches that were coded as “open wound, jaw, complicated.” “When I looked at the bill, I laughed and I told the surgeon’s office, ‘Process this claim with my insurer. I’m not paying out of pocket,’ ” Mr. Adami said. “The hospital has control over who they bring in. But I do not.”

Emergency physicians say they are not to blame. “In general, E.R. physicians try to align themselves with whatever networks their hospitals are in, but sometimes the rates pale compared to what is offered to the hospitals,” said Dr. Bettinger of the emergency physicians’ group. That often leads to protracted negotiations, he said, but eventually the insurers and the doctors come to agreement and sign a contract.

In the meantime, patients are stuck with out-of-pocket charges. Regulations created by the Affordable Care Act specify that insurers must use the best-paying among three methods for reimbursing out-of-network physicians dispensing emergency care: pay the Medicare rate; pay the median in-network amount for the service; or apply the usual formula they use to determine out-of-network reimbursement, which often depends on “usual and customary rates” in the area.

But in most states, doctors can then bill patients for the difference between their charge and what the insurer paid.

In months of dickering over her husband’s bill, Ms. Hopper has learned much about health insurance in Texas. Watching her travails, her husband, a lawyer, told her: “If you were my client, I’d advise you just to pay the $800 and move on with your life.”

She was too angry to take his advice.

But if she or her husband ends up in an emergency room again, she knows they will be vulnerable because only a handful of doctors in any of Austin’s emergency rooms participate in insurance plans. She sighed: “Even knowing everything I know now, it’s completely out of your control.”



Robbery.

Next time you're unconscious in the ER be sure ask if the person saving your life is in-network!
 

Ponn

Banned
Health system is still broken. That was my problem with ACA was that it didn't go far enough to actually fix the problem, it just hand delivered more people into it. I have an over thousand dollar hospital bill to, it wasn't because they were out of network, its called my deductible.
 

Husker86

Member
My insurance treats all emergencies as in-network no matter where you go. I assumed that was standard. Or did they not deem this an emergency?

This really shouldn't be an issue people have to worry about.
 

Tabris

Member
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My insurance treats all emergencies as in-network no matter where you go. I assumed that was standard. Or did they not deem this an emergency?

This really shouldn't be an issue people have to worry about.

Seems like your assumption of "standard" may need adjustment.

Each state has different policies with regards to health insurance, coverage, rates, network, etc. so your experience in one state will differ greatly from another.

Even different providers in the same state will have variances based on the price of the policy.
 

Ermac

Proudly debt free. If you need a couple bucks, just ask.
That feel when turning 26 soon and gonna have to figure all this shit out.
 
It's so mind-boggling that a place like the states can't get a good health care system going


It can, there is just is a lot of dumbfucks that immediately cry socialism or moochers or some other stupid shit.

worst of all is that he infrastructure is already in place both medicare and in the military....
 
It's so mind-boggling that a place like the states can't get a good health care system going

Status Quo Bias.

People are afraid of change and those that benefit fight to keep their benefits.

Most socialized systems were formed in the Shadow of WWII and economic crisis. There was no loss aversion.
 

zma1013

Member
I found out i pay more money for a clinic visit with insurance than without. They actually charge more money because of the paperwork they have to do.
 

Damaniel

Banned
And yet a sizable portion of the US population (about half, if you assume that Republicans aren't offended by their party's position on health care to pick an alternative) considers this type of predatory behavior to be an acceptable part of living in a capitalist society.

Fuck that. We need real universal healthcare now. If we stop bombing random brown people in the Middle East for a while, we'd easily be able to afford it, too.
 

slit

Member
My insurance treats all emergencies as in-network no matter where you go. I assumed that was standard. Or did they not deem this an emergency?

This really shouldn't be an issue people have to worry about.

So does mine, but it depends on on a lot of different factors for other people.
 

The Lamp

Member
Average salary for an ER physician is $300k+? Damn. I hear they have some of the best lifestyles of any physician next to dermas, too.

Still though, this is horse shit. $5000 for stitches?

I experienced this shit earlier this year when I got appendicitis. Had to fight with my insurance company. Thankfully it was all eventually covered by hospital charity because I was just a broke student at the time.
 

Tabris

Member
Status Quo Bias.

People are afraid of change and those that benefit fight to keep their benefits.

Most socialized systems were formed in the Shadow of WWII and economic crisis. There was no loss aversion.

Canada established Universal Health Care in 1984.

Tommy Douglas, the person who brought us Universal Health Care was voted the Greatest Canadian Ever on a nationally televised show. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas . Above our first Prime Minister, our most popular Prime Minister, Terry Fox (my personal hero), and even Wayne Gretzky. That's how much we care about Universal Health Care.

The real truth, is America, as a nation and culture, just isn't as evolved as the rest of the western world in terms of social responsibility and human rights. From slavery to women's rights to civil rights... all the way to universal health care. You have always been behind. You guys will get there, but you are held back by half your nation always dragging you down.
 

linkboy

Member
It can, there is just is a lot of dumbfucks that immediately cry socialism or moochers or some other stupid shit.

worst of all is that he infrastructure is already in place both medicare and in the military....

I always get a kick out of the morons who bitch and whine about universal health care being socialism, but them get up on their soap boxes when you start taking about cuts to Medicare or Tricare, which are government ran health care.
 
Health system is still broken. That was my problem with ACA was that it didn't go far enough to actually fix the problem, it just hand delivered more people into it. I have an over thousand dollar hospital bill to, it wasn't because they were out of network, its called my deductible.

Blame Republicans and the millions of idiots who voted for them. The current ACA was the compromise

Welcome to America: Fuck You, Got Mine™
 
When Jennifer Hopper raced to the emergency room after her husband, Craig, took a baseball in the face, she made sure they went to a hospital in their insurance network in Texas.

The story gets bizarre right here for me (from UK). I can't imagine being in a situation where I need urgent medical care and having to drive past hospitals to get to one where my insurance is accepted. It's messed up.
 
Canada established Universal Health Care in 1984.

Tommy Douglas, the person who brought us Universal Health Care was voted the Greatest Canadian Ever on a nationally televised show. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas . Above our first Prime Minister, our most popular Prime Minister, Terry Fox (my personal hero), and even Wayne Gretzky. That's how much we care about Universal Health Care.

The real truth, is America, as a nation and culture, just isn't as evolved as the rest of the western world in terms of social responsibility and human rights. From slavery to women's rights to civil rights... all the way to universal health care. You have always been behind. You guys will get there, but you are held back by half your nation always dragging you down.

This is such bullshit.
 
They can't see past the small increase in taxes to see all the benefits that UHC would provide for them.

Again, they're not dumb stupid automatons. They're risk adverse. The system works for them by and large.

People like at their politically manufactured responses as the reason instead of manifest from their status quo bias.
 

bebop242

Member
Health system is still broken. That was my problem with ACA was that it didn't go far enough to actually fix the problem, it just hand delivered more people into it. I have an over thousand dollar hospital bill to, it wasn't because they were out of network, its called my deductible.

Yup, fully agree. Its awesome to pay $600 a month and still feel like you don't have insurance because you still have a big deductible to pay off to actually get any coverage.
 

slit

Member
Canada established Universal Health Care in 1984.

Tommy Douglas, the person who brought us Universal Health Care was voted the Greatest Canadian Ever on a nationally televised show. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas . Above our first Prime Minister, our most popular Prime Minister, Terry Fox (my personal hero), and even Wayne Gretzky. That's how much we care about Universal Health Care.

The real truth, is America, as a nation and culture, just isn't as evolved as the rest of the western world in terms of social responsibility and human rights. From slavery to women's rights to civil rights... all the way to universal health care. You have always been behind. You guys will get there, but you are held back by half your nation always dragging you down.

The real truth is you have no idea what you're talking about and I'm sure Canada does have a good system. They should, since you know the U.S. will protect you from the boogeyman and therefore you have to spend basically nothing on defense.
 

Argyle

Member

BobLoblaw

Banned
What's the problem? As long as you're conscious and able to speak, just have the presence of mind to ask for a doctor in your network. If one isn't available, just suffer and/or die. /wtf
 

Tabris

Member
This is such bullshit.

Let's compare to the UK, as I'm biased for Canada:

Abolished Slavery
United States - 1865
United Kingdom - 1804 for GB, 1834 for British Colonies

Women Allowed to Vote
United States - 1920
United Kingdom - 1832-1835

Universal Health Care
United States - 20??
United Kingdom - 1948

America has always been behind the times compared to a majority of the western world in social responsibility and human rights. Point me to facts that prove otherwise if you're going to make a statement like this.
 

Mailbox

Member
The real truth is you have no idea what you're talking about and I'm sure Canada does have a good system. They should, since you know the U.S. will protect you from the boogeyman and therefore you have to spend basically nothing on defense.

While I do think the states is a bit behind on one too many things in the developed world (see education, medical, social services), I have nothing wrong with people giving a proper defence against such a stance.

I do, however hate when people bring bs into arguments just to rile people up. The Canadian defence budget has nothing to do with our universal healthcare, nor our social services.

The only reason the U.S. Defence and military budget is ever on the table is due to the over spending by the U.S. Government on such grounds. Unfortunately, that budget and social medical aren't as easy cut as people like to think.

That said, stop being silly and angry with child-like arguments and make proper descussion

Please don't rebut people by simply saying "ours is bigger than yours".
 

kirblar

Member
Let's compare to the UK, as I'm biased for Canada:

Abolished Slavery
United States - 1865
United Kingdom - 1804 for GB, 1834 for British Colonies

Women Allowed to Vote
United States - 1920
United Kingdom - 1832-1835

Universal Health Care
United States - 20??
United Kingdom - 1948

America has always been behind the times compared to a majority of the western world in social responsibility and human rights. Point me to facts that prove otherwise if you're going to make a statement like this.
English speaking western world probably a better qualifier. (You are right.)

The biggest difference is likely the ratio of urban residents to rural ones- the US has a massive bias towards the latter that slows social progress.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Of course you'd get robbed in the emergency room. The one places most people are the most vulnerable and think the least about costs.

I really hope I get a job soon so I can avoid a mass of bills provided I ever need to go the emergency room. I better start living in a padded room with protective gear on.
 

terrisus

Member
I just assume I'm going to be hitting my out-of-pocket max each year (like $2500 for me), after which point everything's covered.
So, meh, I pay $2500 for the year in addition to my monthly cost for the insurance. Whether that comes all at once or over a couple of visits doesn't matter too much.

Still much better than the $500,000 or whatever that I would otherwise be paying.


Disclaimer: Yes, I know that's just my situation, and that it doesn't work/apply for everyone.
 

Nephtis

Member
United sucks.

I actually enjoyed BlueCros-BlueShield when I was with them. I think this year when our benefits renew we're gonna be stuck with United again. Not looking forward to it.
 

slit

Member
While I do think the states is a bit behind on one too many things in the developed world (see education, medical, social services), I have nothing wrong with people giving a proper defence against such a stance.

I do, however hate when people bring bs into arguments just to rile people up. The Canadian defence budget has nothing to do with our universal healthcare, nor our social services.

The only reason the U.S. Defence and military budget is ever on the table is due to the over spending by the U.S. Government on such grounds. Unfortunately, that budget and social medical aren't as easy cut as people like to think.

That said, stop being silly and angry with child-like arguments and make proper descussion

Please don't rebut people by simply saying "ours is bigger than yours".

Please don't tell me what to argue. I'm not the one who brought the subject up to begin with. It has everything to do with to do with it. Do you know how much it would cost to properly defend a land mass the size of Canada? Yeah, I'm sure you don't.
 
Please don't tell me what to argue. I'm not the one who brought the subject up to begin with. It has everything to do with to do with it. Do you know how much it would cost to properly defend a land mass the size of Canada? Yeah, I'm sure you don't.

Do you?
 

Tabris

Member
The real truth is you have no idea what you're talking about and I'm sure Canada does have a good system. They should, since you know the U.S. will protect you from the boogeyman and therefore you have to spend basically nothing on defense.

Well America greatly overspends on it's military, as it does it's healthcare. But let me throw some facts at you.

You as a nation spend 17.9% of your GDP towards healthcare (which isn't free) compared to 9.4% of UK's GDP. So even with Universal Healthcare, other nations are spending close to half of their GDP towards healthcare expenditure.

You have the military expenditure of the top 15+ nations before you combined.

country-distribution-2012.png


US treats it's military like an industry as it has often been an economic fuel for your nation. Wars cost money but also create a cycle of employment and economic growth. Same way infrastructure costs can have the same effect on an economy. Your military expenditure is not from need, but from want. It also is an investment in American imperialism which has spurred your economy in the 19th and 20th century, the same as the British Empire's economy in 17th and 18th century.

Canada does not need to spend the same amount as it doesn't have an imperialistic agenda as a nation which demands higher expenditure due to more remote operations. Our forces are mainly used towards unilateral UN and NATO objectives, specializing in peacekeeping. Our military expenditure per capita is 19th in the world, ahead of nations like Germany, Russia, South Korea, Brazil, etc. based on 2009 data - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures_per_capita (I assume the Russian figure has changed).

We also have shown amazing aptitude to significantly increase GDP spending for military expenditures when required, specifically WWII, where we were engaged before US. So when the need arises, Canada will be there, as it has proven the ability to do before.

Now let's get back on topic about healthcare.
 
This whole situation is highly depressing. My employer supplies me with very good insurance. I pay up to $800 a year in total deductibles. Anything after that is completely covered.

But the system is broken. ACA helped a lot of people get insurance when they normally wouldn't, but the real problem are the costs. My mom recently had to go to the ER for an injury. We sat in the ER for 20 minutes waiting to see the doctor. The nurse took us into the room and checked us in. The doctor stopped in for less than 10 minutes, gave her medication, and she was billed for over $1000. For seeing a doctor for less than 10 minutes and receiving $10 medication. The bills are outrageous.
 

Mailbox

Member
Please don't tell me what to argue. I'm not the one who brought the subject up to begin with. It has everything to do with to do with it. Do you know how much it would cost to properly defend a land mass the size of Canada? Yeah, I'm sure you don't.

You actually were the one bring up the pointless issue of defence costs in a topic about medical and social spendings.

Oh well. I should have learned by now that people who bring up arbitrary points of info into arguments so they can "win" are worthless to argue with.

Regardless. US, get your crap together and get some universal healthcare.
 
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