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[John Dunbar]

Mandatory military service isn't exactly uncommon. Lots of countries do it. A country doesn't need to be at war to have a draft. And a draft isn't a new concept for the US either.

All it's going to take is an American government that thinks the country would benefit from mandatory service. I'd say the civil, military, and political situation in the US is volatile enough for it to be a consideration.
Don't be so sure that a US draft is "impossible".

sure, but a quick look at a map that shows which countries do it will tell you that it is not exactly the kind of company you want to be in.

 

[Dishwalla]

have you been part of the us military? because i know a few people who have and wouldn't call it a positive experience at all

He won't answer that question so I'm going with no.

Although I have to say I've been in the military(Navy) for more than eight years now and I'd say overall I've had a positive experience. There's been some bad times sure, but there's also been plenty of good times as well, and I've seen and done more than I ever would've had I not joined.

That said though it simply isn't for everyone, making every youth in America do a mando two years doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

[entremet]

All American men at 18 need to sign up for selective service by law. It's a federal felony if you don't.

This is a registration in case a draft would be restored.

I have no problem opening this up for women as well, especially if we're going for a more egalitarian society.

Many modern nations already have mandatory service for both genders--Israel being a key example.

Moreover, there are religious and health exceptions too.

 

[John Dunbar]

All American men at 18 need to sign up for selective service by law. It's a federal felony if you don't.

This is a registration in case a draft would be restored.

I have no problem opening this up for women as well, especially if we're going for a more egalitarian society.

Many modern nations already have mandatory service for genders--Israel being a key example.

Moreover, there are religious and health exceptions too.

name three others.

 

[hoola]

I'm opposed to the draft as it is. What's it called when you are forced to work for someone under harsh conditions and face prison or death if you refuse? You are a slave without an owner. Also, after reading the statistics on sexual assault against women in the military, I would never want someone to be forced into that situation. I believe it is something like 90% are assaulted in some way, and 30% or so are outright raped. Is that something that can be changed? I would bet not dramatically.

 

[entremet]

name three others.

Austria, Mexico, Switzerland, Taiwan, and many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

What's your angle here, btw?

And are you aware what Obama is doing? There is no draft. This is the case a draft is reinstated. Registration is just there so the database is up to date if the draft does return.

But the draft isn't coming back. People are making a huge deal about nothing here.

 

[dave is ok]

Good. Hopefully Obama makes this equal as well

 

[BearFlexington]

I'm against this on the POW conditions factor alone.

 

[entremet]

I'm against this on the POW conditions factor alone.

Then you're against women serving in all major combat roles, which was just recently opened up or in consideration.

 

[John Dunbar]

Austria, Mexico, Switzerland, Taiwan, and many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

What's your angle here, btw?

And are you aware what Obama is doing? There is no draft. This is the case a draft is reinstated. Registration is just there so the database is up to date if the draft does return.

But the draft isn't coming back. People are making a huge deal about nothing here.

what exactly do you mean "for genders"? because neither austria nor switzerland has mandatory service for women. and i am pretty sure neither has taiwan.

edit: saw your edit to "both genders". well, none of those countries have mandatory service for women.

 

[Concrete Charlie]

I'd like to see women in the draft and I also like the idea of mandatory 2 year service after high school for everyone. Two great ideas.

 

[entremet]

what exactly do you mean "for genders"? because neither austria nor switzerland has mandatory service for women. and i am pretty sure neither has taiwan.

Ah. My mistake. I was talking about mandatory conscription.

You're right, Israel may be the only one and possibly North Korea (lol).

However, women only serve 1 year, while men serve 2.

But nothing Obama is doing is proposing reinstalling forced conscription. I have no idea why people are balking at this idea.

Massive misinformation and ignorance ITT.

 

[Sunset Samurai]

Did any other male gaffers on here had to sign up for the draft when they had turned 18? I remember my mom had me do it years back.

 

[John Dunbar]

Ah. My mistake. I was talking about mandatory conscription.

You're right, Israel may be the only one. However, women only serve 1 year, while men serve 2.

But nothing Obama is doing is proposing reinstalling forced conscription. I have no idea why people are balking at this idea.

Massive misinformation and ignorance ITT.

the most glaring example provided by you.

 

[entremet]

Did any other male gaffers on here had to sign up for the draft when they had turned 18? I remember my mom had me do it years back.

If you're a male citizen of age, it's mandatory to register for Selective Service. You usually sign up when registering for financial aid.

Again that is not a draft. That is only in case a draft is reinstated.

the most glaring example provided by you.

I was talking about conscription specifically. I was wrong about the genders. I'd admit to that.

But here's the thing. I still don't know what's your argument.

You corrected me. I've conceded. Where do you stand?

 

[Apathy]

Prefer if they got rid of the draft, but if you don't this is at least the way of equality.

 

[John Dunbar]

I was talking about conscription specifically. I was wrong about the genders. I'd admit to that.

But here's the thing. I still don't know what's your argument.

You corrected. I've conceded. Where do you stand?

just generally against any form of conscription.

 

[entremet]

just generally against any form of conscription.

But the US doesn't have forced conscription, so I don't know why the discussion is veering toward that direction. This is not conscription.

Selective Service is not a draft.

I have no problem with the proposal.

Ideally, though SS should be abolished. We don't need it.

 

[dave is ok]

Here is a list of things men currently don't qualify for if they fail to register for Selective Service:

STUDENT FINANCIAL AID

Men, born after December 31, 1959, who aren't registered with Selective Service won't qualify for federal student loans or grant programs. This includes Federal Pell Grants, Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grants (FSEOG), Direct Stafford Loans/Plus Loans, National Direct Student Loans, and College Work Study.

CITIZENSHIP

The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) makes registration with Selective Service a condition for U.S. citizenship if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.

FEDERAL JOB TRAINING

The Workforce Investment Act (WIA) offers programs that can train young men seeking vocational employment or enhancing their career. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service. Only men born after December 31, 1959, are required to show proof of registration.

FEDERAL JOBS

A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal Government and the U.S. Postal Service. Proof of registration is required only for men born after December 31, 1959.

Security clearance background investigations will verify whether or not men are in compliance with federal law; thus, men who are required to be registered with the Selective Service System will be verified of their Selective Service registration status for security clearances, as well as for some contractors.

 

[John Dunbar]

But the US doesn't have forced conscription, so I don't know why the discussion is veering toward that direction.

Selective Service is not a draft.

i am perfectly aware of that. but you will notice that there has been plenty of talk in this thread about how conscription might be a good idea. getting rid of selective service entirely would be a much better idea than including women to make sure that there never will be either a draft or conscription in america. plus you also felt the need to bring up countries that do have have an actual conscription and not some version of selective service.

 

[entremet]

i am perfectly aware of that. but you will notice that there has been plenty of talk in this thread about how conscription might be a good idea. getting rid of selective service entirely would be a much better idea than including women to make sure that there never will be either a draft or conscription in america. plus you also felt the need to bring up countries that do have have an actual conscription and not some version of selective service.

I brought it up to show the contrasts.

The US has no forced conscription and that's a great thing. But having one is not some archaic, outlandish thing. Selective Service is just a database of eligible citizens in comparison.

Personally, I agree with you. Mostly because modern warfare has change so much and the US already has enough volunteers. We're also in a geopolitically favored situation. Israel is not.

 

[Milksheikhs]

I'm opposed to the draft as it is. What's it called when you are forced to work for someone under harsh conditions and face prison or death if you refuse? You are a slave without an owner. Also, after reading the statistics on sexual assault against women in the military, I would never want someone to be forced into that situation. I believe it is something like 90% are assaulted in some way, and 30% or so are outright raped. Is that something that can be changed? I would bet not dramatically.

Good point. If this is actually passed through (making it mandatory for women to sign up for a possible draft) are we going to do anything about the sexual assault faced by women?

 

[Chunky]

Yes, yes. Keep the draft. Have unskilled, slovenly civilians fight in your military. It shall make recolonizing you that much easier for us.

Exactly, have the yanks grow fat, rich and above all, complacent. Then our glorious long-con shall finally come to fruition.
Hail Britannia! God Save the Queen!!

 

[CDX]

Here is a list of things men currently don't qualify for if they fail to register for Selective Service:

STUDENT FINANCIAL AID

Men, born after December 31, 1959, who aren't registered with Selective Service won't qualify for federal student loans or grant programs. This includes Federal Pell Grants, Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grants (FSEOG), Direct Stafford Loans/Plus Loans, National Direct Student Loans, and College Work Study.

CITIZENSHIP

The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) makes registration with Selective Service a condition for U.S. citizenship if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.

FEDERAL JOB TRAINING

The Workforce Investment Act (WIA) offers programs that can train young men seeking vocational employment or enhancing their career. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service. Only men born after December 31, 1959, are required to show proof of registration.

FEDERAL JOBS

A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal Government and the U.S. Postal Service. Proof of registration is required only for men born after December 31, 1959.

Security clearance background investigations will verify whether or not men are in compliance with federal law; thus, men who are required to be registered with the Selective Service System will be verified of their Selective Service registration status for security clearances, as well as for some contractors.

Seems to be mostly things the non-wealthy would care about.

I can't imagine the 0.1% care if they don't get student financial aid, job training, or they can't be a mailman. Perhaps some of those elite might care about certain high profile federal jobs though.

 

[entremet]

Seems to be mostly things the non-wealthy would care about.

I can't imagine the 0.1% care if they don't get student financial aid, job training, or they can't be a mailman. Perhaps some of those elite might care about certain high profile federal jobs though.

All men have to register by law. If not here are the penalties.

Failing to register or comply with the Military Selective Service Act is a felony punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 or a prison term of up to five years, or a combination of both. Also, a person who knowingly counsels, aids, or abets another to fail to comply with the Act is subject to the same penalties.

If a man fails to register, or provides Selective Service with evidence that he is exempt from the registration requirement, after receiving Selective Service reminder and/or compliance mailings, his name is referred to the Department of Justice for possible investigation and prosecution for his failure to register as required by the Act. For clarification, if a man is exempt from registering with the Selective Service System, his name is not forwarded to the Department of Justice. The federal law stipulates that names are to be submitted to the Department of Justice annually.

The more immediate penalty is if a man fails to register before turning 26 years old, even if he is not tried or prosecuted, he may find that some doors are permanently closed.

https://www.sss.gov/Registration/Why-Register/Benefits-and-Penalties

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Instead of having the draft, maybe we should require 2 years mandatory military service upon turning 18 or graduating high school.

The US isn't in the middle of one of the most geopolitically unstable areas of the world, unlike Israel which has been invaded multiple times and needs a population that can go into war time mode in a heartbeat.

The country is literally protected by two oceans and it's north and south borders are friends.

 

[freeofgreed]

It'll be a good training period on how to handle weapons better.Weapon safety and stuffs.

With so many people walking around with a concealed carry guns around and people waiting for every moments to break into your house with guns, i say the mandatory conscription is a good idea.

So you want mandatory conscription just so that the minority of gun owners know how to use a gun? That seems like an excessive solution for this problem. Why not just have Mandetory gun training for anyone who wants to have a gun at that point? Mandatory conscription would do nothing but further cripple our youth.

 

[Ether_Snake]

The problem with this is, while people like to joke about how America loves militarization, is that the different branches are all having issues with too many people serving and not enough places to put them(even though it isn't as bad now as it was a few years ago). Here in the Navy they were pushing people out, even allowing people in certain rates to terminate their contracts early. To this day some rates have terrible advancement quotas simply because there is so many people in the rate.

Making it compulsory to serve, even for two years, would be a horrible strain on all the branches, considering there are millions of 18-20 year olds in this country.

That's not a real problem. There are all sorts of public works people could be put to work on. No reason why something currently done by the private sector couldn't be done by a part of the military. It's a structural problem, not an implicit cost or demand problem.

The very notion of "military" is kind of narrow and should be widened. There should be much more emphasis for the "military" to be involved in infrastructure development and maintenance as well as environmental protection.

edit: Should also be involved in healthcare too, such as working in hospitals, providing help to elderly people at home, etc. And there's so much money wasted on weapons that don't make sense, so it's not like there's no funds, plus the positive impact on society would translate into positive economic impact.

 

[ampere]

I've seen some stupid ceremonial dilemmas before, but are you fucking kidding me. There will never be another draft, this literally will never be an issue.

Yeah this is pretty dumb.

They should just axe the Selective Service program altogether as it's just an outdated relic.

 

[ScatheZombie]

sure, but a quick look at a map that shows which countries do it will tell you that it is not exactly the kind of company you want to be in.

Denmark, Finland, Norway, Switzerland...

 

[FyreWulff]

I'd prefer the draft system be completely removed (it's not needed.. any 'needed' war is going to have everyone signing up on their own), but if must exist, it should include all genders.

Isn't the information given when signing up for the draft used in recruitment?

Recruiters come after you even before you sign up for the draft. I had one that wouldn't take no for an answer when was 17 and I hadn't even registered yet.

 

[freeofgreed]

Denmark, Finland, Norway, Switzerland...

Tbf those countries all have pretty small populations and too have any military presence at all they need mandatory conscription. The US has by far the greatest military in the world and that's without mandatory conscription. Adding it would be completely pointless.

 

[entremet]

That's not a real problem. There are all sorts of public works people could be put to work on. No reason why something currently done by the private sector couldn't be done by a part of the military. It's a structural problem, not an implicit cost or demand problem.

The very notion of "military" is kind of narrow and should be widened. There should be much more emphasis for the "military" to be involved in infrastructure development and maintenance as well as environmental protection.

Your last paragraph is a great point.

The US is still stuck in 20th century in terms of their security and military strategy.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

Denmark, Finland, Norway, Switzerland...

Denmark and Norway do not punish you for not going into the military, it's more like a "please come" letter rather than a duty to go in there. And it does not affect everyone, only about 20% of youth receive the military letter. Norway recently made it include women too.

Finland has conscription indeed, but for men only. Many studies place Finland among the 5 most gender equal countries in the world, which feeds some effective arguments for MRAs.

I don't know about Switzerland's system.

 

[ScatheZombie]

Tbf those countries all have pretty small populations and too have any military presence at all they need mandatory conscription. The US has by far the greatest military in the world and that's without mandatory conscription. Adding it would be completely pointless.

Sure, but that's a different argument entirely than "We shouldn't do it because only shitty countries do it."

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

The draft (And by proxy the Selective Service) is an outmoded and unnecessary concept but should be equally applied so long as it is in existence at all. If able-bodied women are eligible for combat roles in the military (And they are now), they should be subject to the same requirements that men are.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Glad I'm flatfooted.

 

[Almighty]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

As long as selective service is a thing then I see no reason it shouldn't be mandatory for both genders.

 

[Check valve]

People don't realize you don't need a draft... Until you actually need it.

 

[FyreWulff]

People don't realize you don't need a draft... Until you actually need it.

People don't realize how damaging a draft is unless they've been through one.

 

[Monocle]

So... make it 1 year. Make it "national service" instead of military service. Make it 6 months. It's always easier to latch onto the details than the general concept though, I suppose.

Or give people grants to go to college instead? Why the fixation on some form of mandatory service?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I don't think you have provided any data either. We're just expressing our opinions, right? Mine is that it would be an improvement, yours is that it wouldn't. Last time I checked two people were allowed to have differing opinions -- and it's even possible for people to ahve different opinions while neither one is ignorant, if you can believe that.



So... make it 1 year. Make it "national service" instead of military service. Make it 6 months. It's always easier to latch onto the details than the general concept though, I suppose.

Fuck this and fuck the modern American military machine. The last thing we need to do is shuttle more people into it than we already do.

 

[Fenderputty]

Fuck the draft.

 

[Qblivion]

Enforce selective service registration for everyone and maybe there will be enough people to finally want to abolish it all together.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I used to be terrified of getting drafted when I was younger.

 

[iamblades]

Women should have to register for selective service certainly, but the draft is pointless these days, and the idea of mandatory military service is just laughable.

The armed forces need to move in the direction of more skilled and professional troops, not more warm bodies. Payscales need to be reworked so all the skilled operators stop leaving to join PMCs and soldiers have incentives to stick around after they are fully trained.

If it ever comes to the point where we need to reinstate the draft, shit is fucked on such an epic scale that it is hard to imagine the outcome.