cpp_is_king
Member
Everyone else doubts that too. But when you're talking about impending doom, it's kind of good to have contingency plans in place.
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Obama administration weighs making women eligible for military draft
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Everyone else doubts that too. But when you're talking about impending doom, it's kind of good to have contingency plans in place.
Zoe
Member
Doesn't have to be that kind of service. Some countries have it where government work applies.
excelsiorlef
Member
LOl respect, like back in the good ol days of Vietnam, Korea, Segregation, AIDS crisis, etc...
cpp_is_king
Member
gutter_trash
Banned
1st sane post in the thread
I personally am against drafting women because we don't want a drop off of female population
males, sadly are more expandable and replaceable.
women have more importance, so it is not a good idea to include them in the draft
Mr_Antimatter
Member
If they are facing an 'existential crisis' and folks aren't signing up to fight, i'd take a good long look at the reasons why.
Abolishing it, as well as their mandatory registration, would force the government to always tread carefully, and not rush headlong into conflict. Vietnam couldn't have happened if the government couldn't draft people.
AnathemicOne
Banned
We also live in a globalized world and (assuming you're in the US) within the most militarized nation in the world. I appreciate contingency plans but the draft as we know it (ala Vietnam (which was an offensive war, not an existential crisis)) seems very irrelevant and outdated in how both modern society and modern military operates.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
The switch to an all professional army has in no way impeded America's ability to wage wars overseas. On an all-volunteer basis it has 1.3 million active personnel and 800,000 reserves. If it needed conscription, it would have to be for a pretty apocalyptic war, not for one of those ones where they fly to a developing nation and stomp on it for a bit.
How about Obama and every politcian weighs sending their own kids to wars this country doesn't need or needlessly start. The idea of a draft is barbaric considering the implementation since it's inception in this country. The elites ask everyone else but themselves to ante up for cause a they will benefit the most from and sacrifice the least for. I'm glad woman are being allowed to participate in all forms of combat but the draft is BS and will always be.
I know, I know poligaf real ideas have no place in a government and politcal system so full of shit as ours.
I know, I know poligaf real ideas have no place in a government and politcal system so full of shit as ours.
I don't think the current draft works well as a contingency plan. It's too easily abused. For example I can see how the draft could be justified in WWII, but there was absolutely no reason to use it in Vietnam. The draft should only be used when absolutely necessary.
Also, why is it necessary to explicitly sign up for selective service? Doesn't the government already have enough records that could be used for a draft? That just seems inefficient, like surely social security records could be used. I just don't see the need to have a separate database for selective service. But maybe I'm just dumb and missing something obvious :/
Why don't we want a drop off in female population and why are males more expendable? It's not like females are the mages in our society. We are all people and our deaths all have an impact. Your post confuses me.
I think we should require one year of entertaining us in gladiatorial fights
AnathemicOne
Banned
Because the military teaches life skills. The military teaches discipline and lack of discipline in an individual is brought on his/her upbringing. Yeah I agree a fair amount of people need to learn discipline but having everyone (atleast from how the marines operate) having a mandatory boot camp session of "being broken down physically and mentally and then rebuilt afterwards" is not prudent in any sense.
A draft for the war on obesity?
A literal war on obesity. The adds write themselves just think about it.
To illustrate my point:
When a large group of young people die in wartime, their deaths have implications on the future population. Not only will these men never become fathers, but the women they would have married will never become mothers. Uneven gender balances are very dangerous, and led to a population crash in Germany after WW2.
If you send both young men and young women off to die, their deaths "counterbalance" each other. Because there is still an even gender ratio, more families will be formed than if only men were drafted. The population won't shrink very much.
Some environmental activists want our population to shrink, but in a service economy population shrinkage leads to GDP shrinkage. If our GDP begins to shrink, our economy will tank. This would be really bad, and probably more dangerous than the deaths of our soldiers overseas.
You're probably right, but if the US is ever brought into a land conflict with China, the number of troops deployed will be pretty significant. China's population is what political scientists like to call "fucking massive", as they can easily arm tens of millions of young men and women at a very low economic and social cost. Because the United States will not be able to compete with China's numbers, and because our allies have smaller militaries than we do, a draft may actually be necessary to stand a fighting chance.
When a large group of young people die in wartime, their deaths have implications on the future population. Not only will these men never become fathers, but the women they would have married will never become mothers. Uneven gender balances are very dangerous, and led to a population crash in Germany after WW2.
If you send both young men and young women off to die, their deaths "counterbalance" each other. Because there is still an even gender ratio, more families will be formed than if only men were drafted. The population won't shrink very much.
Some environmental activists want our population to shrink, but in a service economy population shrinkage leads to GDP shrinkage. If our GDP begins to shrink, our economy will tank. This would be really bad, and probably more dangerous than the deaths of our soldiers overseas.
You're probably right, but if the US is ever brought into a land conflict with China, the number of troops deployed will be pretty significant. China's population is what political scientists like to call "fucking massive", as they can easily arm tens of millions of young men and women at a very low economic and social cost. Because the United States will not be able to compete with China's numbers, and because our allies have smaller militaries than we do, a draft may actually be necessary to stand a fighting chance.
militarized nanny-statism
cpp_is_king
Member
There is more to the military than boot camp. After that part is over you have to, like, do stuff. Be a mechanic, a cryptographer, and intelligence analyst, a medic, something. There are actual jobs in the military. And they train you for them.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Okay... ever heard of college or trade schools?
What data have you supplied? Your own experience of the few people you know? That isn't data. Certainly not data to decide from. A quick google search says 3.3 million students will graduate high school this year. Add those plus the drop outs that turn 18 and you've got even more people all having to come in to serve a mandatory 2 years of service. That's a lot of wasted money for what? Our military is bloated. We don't need to bring in millions o f more to serve when we are in no deficit of people serving right now. It's a waste of money. Military service isn't some cure-all solution to make everybody suddenly be a positive contributor to society. If you want to help people, you can do more than just make them serve a pointless service. How about investing in areas that will make them productive right from the start like a greater investment in school infrastructure instead.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Click their tag, people.
cpp_is_king
Member
Yes. 1) they cost money. 2) they are voluntary. 3) attending one does not contribute to the greater good of the country. 4) they do not come with boot camp.
Uhh, what? People who are in a relationship with somebody in the military don't just vow to never be with anybody else if their significant other is killed. Well, at least not most.To illustrate my point:
Not only will these men never become fathers, but the women they would have married will never become mothers.
What's stopping people from doing jobs like that anyways without military service?
Just please accept that you don't know what you're talking about, a draft may not be the worst idea for a crisis, but the definition of a crisis before has been debatable; and required service to teach the generation below you a lesson in freedom that you understand easily is the same mindset every generation has had about the next since the beginning of recorded human history. Kids these days don't value the shit we didn't value either as kids; forcing them to appreciate it more likely means they won't.
That poster actually isn't a Trump supporter anymore if I remember correctly.
Neither do I, but my point is the draft is a last ditch type of thing. It's like saying you plan on staying healthy, so you don't want medical insurance. Sure, you're saving money in the short term, but if you don't have it and you need it, you're fucked.
AnathemicOne
Banned
1) Everything costs money
2) Not everyone needs to be shoved into STEM
3) Fuck off with the nationalism
4) Boot Camp is not needed for everyone
cpp_is_king
Member
Does this mean that entire countries who have implemented this also don't know what they are doing? You disagreeing with someone does not mean you can stifle discussion by saying "bro you're just stupid and wrong, lol"
It's not all STEM. And while it may cost money to feed and house them, the idea is that they are more prepared to give something back after getting out. Like having better jobs (which means paying more tax), for example
I fail to see how a person going to, say, medical school, becoming a physician, paying taxes and saving and improving the lives of their fellow citizens does not contribute to the greater good of the country.
Did you ever serve? If you did do you think you are a better person or that you have life skills you otherwise would not have? If you didn't then do you wish you did? And if not why not?
"Other countries do X. This implies X is good and we should do X too."
The point is that if most of your young males die there is an imbalance in population. Less males lead to fewer families leads to problems if a significant portion of them die.
1.So does the military, just everyone else's money.
2. Yes?
3. What are you talking about? Do you have any data supporting the statement that young people getting higher education does not contribute to the greater good of their country. Unless you have an extremely warped view of "greater good" this isn't a valid point.
4. Another point that I don't see as being a positive compared to the alternative, boot camp doesn't instill discipline or life values in every single person ever.
AnathemicOne
Banned
College and Trade Schools already serve as that avenue of opportunity to provide better jobs for people. Why the US lacks behind is due to the implementation of the education system, not education itself. You don't need mandatory military service to educate people to be productive members of society.
I was pointing out the argument about women just calling off relationships. I would argue that not nearly enough men die in war to make it a noticeable problem. I'm not arguing women shouldn't be drafted, just that a slight percentage drop in the men's population likely isn't wreaking havoc.
cpp_is_king
Member
No. But it does imply that the statement "This is a stupid idea and you're stupid for thinking it" is false.
neogaffer1
Banned
we're like the third most populous country in the world. dafuq are we going to pay all those soldiers, be able to supply them or even pay their instructors, or really anything to do with them that requires money? why would we even need that many people anyways, we're sandwiched between two allies and a shitton of water.
many islamic countries make homosexual acts like sodomy illegal. does this mean that it's not a stupid idea to jail homosexuals?
Like......going to college????
I didn't say you were stupid at all so I don't see how I'm stifling any discussion. It really says something about your discussion skills if that's the first complaint you have, and also \ a terrible way to condense my argument. Doing it because some other countries do it isn't a good retort either; other countries stone people to death for crimes. I don't have any data to back up how that has affected crime rates; but why would countries do that if they don't know what they're doing? Because countries aren't the greatest representation of knowing best.
Actually, it doesn't. Plenty of countries do stupid things. You're denying the possibilities that he has valid reasons why he thinks it is stupid. Sorry, but other countries doing this doesn't mean it isn't stupid for us to do it.
univariate
Banned
And why is that exactly?
Not to mention the immense opportunity cost of pretty much every 18 year old not entering the workforce proper for a few years, not being able to attend a tertiary college or trade school for several years, not being able to take low level retail, hospitality, clerical jobs, not being able to participate in consumer culture to the extent they would under a civilian life.
The economic disruption would be immense honestly.
cpp_is_king
Member
We're now comparing mandatory military service in Finland, South Korea, Taiwan, Norway, and Singapore to sodomy in countries with islamic law?
Thumbs up.
neogaffer1
Banned
not enough men to go around
just look at the diagram he used
that doesn't disprove the counterexample i gave to your statement
cpp_is_king
Member
If you can figure out how to get all the fast food workers who are fighting for $15 / hour to graduate college, we can talk.
Nope, we're comparing your ridiculous argument to other things that other countries considered as the right thing implying that countries aren't always right.
Stop stifling discussion.
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