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[ezrarh]

Companies not hiring because of uncertainty in future tax rates is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard.

 

[Evlar]

The German Democratic Republic was the freedom-loving one. Just look at the name. Sooo much more freedom-loving than the Federal Republic of Germany.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Egyptians march from Tahrir Square to support Occupy Oakland protestors

http://boingboing.net/2011/10/28/tahrir.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=36761

 

[minus_273]

Good point.

exactly, complete central control of everything and all property. behold the workers paradise! socialism is a crappy system you would think with the failure of National Socialist rule in germany and communist rule all over the world that people would figure this out by now.

 

[Something Wicked]

Companies not hiring because of uncertainty in future tax rates is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard.

Then you clearly know nothing about running a successful company.

 

[NullPointer]

Companies not hiring because of uncertainty in future tax rates is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard.

Seriously. And its not like temporarily extending the Bush Tax cuts removed that so-called uncertainty.

The other one I heard (from my family) was that companies are holding their monies and not hiring because Obama has talked smack about certain business practices.

Egyptians march from Tahrir Square to support Occupy Oakland protestors

:')

 

[Dude Abides]

The recession will not just magically end, since it's driven by very real structural problems. Companies are not going to hire en masse when there is so much uncertainty in future tax rates, due to the high state and federal deficits. Much of such deficits are caused by the public union pension funds. Therefore, until public union pension funds become more sustainable, the recession- either as a technical one or more general economic stagnation- will continue to occur. The pensions and the recession are... dun dun dun- interrelated.

The Certainty Fairy! Companies aren't hiring because there's little demand for goods and services. The fact that you'd attribute the federal deficit to the miniscule liability for pensions for federal workers should suggest that there may be a flaw in your logic.

The road to social collectivism is paved with unintended consequences.

The Road to Serfdom is paved with laissez-faire nonsense.

 

[minus_273]

Then you clearly know nothing about running a successful company.

no no dont tell him that in business what we hate most is risk and uncertainty. we are all greedy greedy profit mongers and robber barons blind to all other factors. a capitalist sells you the rope to hang him with!

 

[Azih]

exactly,

Nice to see that you agree that just because a party stuck 'Socialist' in its name makes it about as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a Democratic People's Republic. As in not at all.

 

[dave is ok]

Then you clearly know nothing about running a successful company.

If this were actually true, would they be hiring right now to make the most out of the low tax rates before the "uncertainty" of higher rates comes into effect?

 

[minus_273]

Nice to see that you agree that just because a party stuck 'Socialist' in its name makes it about as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a Democratic People's Republic. As in not at all.

im glad that you acknoledge that there is such a thing as anti capitalist totalitarian socialism and those people have similar economic goals as the socialists on this forum.

or do you think this wiki page should be deleted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_socialism

 

[Kosmo]

Then you clearly know nothing about running a successful company.

Funny how the internet is full of people saying companies aren't hiring because of uncertainty is bullshit, yet nobody is out there creating companies in the same industry to fulfill all the demand they claim the companies not hiring are ignoring.

The same people railing against capitalism are the ones saying that these companies are not being capitalistic ENOUGH.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Egyptians march from Tahrir Square to support Occupy Oakland protestors

http://boingboing.net/2011/10/28/tahrir.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=36761

Classy.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

are you seriously saying that the National SOCIALIST party is not socialist? why on earth would it be in their name and would they promote socialism if they were not?
let me introduce you to a concept you don't seem to be familiar with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_socialism

" their support for social solidarity and paternalism as opposed to what they see as anti-social individualism, commercialism, and laissez faire economics"

"Bismarckism and later fascism and Nazism have been considered examples of right-wing socialism.[4]"

im sorry if the facts bother you, maybe you ought to learn more.

sounds a lot like your group doesnt it?

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo you're an idiot. You know who the primary political enemies of Mussolini, Hitler and Franco were? Socialists.

Actually look into the socio-economic policies of Nazism and Socialism before you correlate the two in any way. Jesus you are a luddard

oh shut up Manos, those guys just overthrew an oppressive regime who used those violent tactics that were used against occupy oakland. If their word doesn't mean anything then i don't know whose does.

 

[ezrarh]

Businesses expand when there is demand. The uncertainty now is that people are broke and can only afford the base necessities. Companies are already sitting on billions of cash. You're trying to tell me they won't expand because there's uncertainty that marginal income taxes might go up from 36 to 39%? There hasn't been a real scent of Congress trying to actually raise taxes on businesses besides shutting down loopholes.

 

[NullPointer]

How the hell can anybody have true certainty in a Democracy? Every election can change things dramatically. Makes you wonder how anybody manages to run a business.

 

[dave is ok]

Funny how the internet is full of people saying companies aren't hiring because of uncertainty is bullshit, yet nobody is out there creating companies in the same industry to fulfill all the demand they claim the companies not hiring are ignoring.

Actually, most people are saying the problem is lack of demand and not 'uncertainty about taxes'. And even The National Federation of Independent Businesses, the most right wing of the major business groups agrees:

 

[minus_273]

Funny how the internet is full of people saying companies aren't hiring because of uncertainty is bullshit, yet nobody is out there creating companies in the same industry to fulfill all the demand they claim the companies not hiring are ignoring.

The same people railing against capitalism are the ones saying that these companies are not being capitalistic ENOUGH.

because you would have to be an idiot to gamble (above a certain level of risk it might as well be) your money that way. I am sure there are people who are doing it but most people have enough sense not to.

 

[Evlar]

Then you clearly know nothing about running a successful company.

Uh.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/why_businesses_arent_hiring_in.html

Chris Gaun notes that we don't have to theorize about what's scaring businesses. We can ask them instead. The National Federation of Independent Businesses -- a small-business trade association that is considered the most right wing of the major business groups -- continually polls its members and releases the results. Here's what they say is their single most important problem:

As you can see, sales -- that is to say, demand for their products -- dominate the chart, while fear of taxes is lower than in the '90s. The concern over sales is understandable. Not only is the economy bad. But as the next chart shows, it keeps underperforming what the businesses assume will happen.

So, if anything, businesses have been too optimistic over the past few years.

This is from July 2010. Anything happen in the meantime to change that?

 

[Dude Abides]

Funny how the internet is full of people saying companies aren't hiring because of uncertainty is bullshit, yet nobody is out there creating companies in the same industry to fulfill all the demand they claim the companies not hiring are ignoring.

The same people railing against capitalism are the ones saying that these companies are not being capitalistic ENOUGH.

Who is claiming there is demand out there that companies are ignoring?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

im glad that you acknoledge that there is such a thing as anti capitalist totalitarian socialism and those people have similar economic goals as the socialists on this forum.

or do you think this wiki page should be deleted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_socialism

get the mother FUCK out of here dude, you mother fuck, not even fucking Manos would try and imply that the Occupy movement is akin to fascism

 

[minus_273]

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo you're an idiot. You know who the primary political enemies of Mussolini, Hitler and Franco were? Socialists.

Actually look into the socio-economic policies of Nazism and Socialism before you correlate the two in any way. Jesus you are a luddard

oh shut up Manos, those guys just overthrew an oppressive regime who used those violent tactics that were used against occupy oakland. If their word doesn't mean anything then i don't know whose does.

do you agree this resembles socialism? if not, how so?

"Fascists have advocated themselves as preserving the integrity of the nation and solving the social question by destroying the "dictatorship of money", restraining "wild capitalism" to insure national solidarity, and having a strong state that controls the economy"

get the mother FUCK out of here dude, you mother fuck, not even fucking Manos would try and imply that the Occupy movement is akin to fascism

I don't need to imply it, the nazis are at your rallies and they suppport you because your economic agendas overlap in places.

 

[Kosmo]

Who is claiming there is demand out there that companies are ignoring?

Obviously the people who say that companies are sitting on piles of cash and should be hiring. What should they be hiring for if there is not some demand they are not meeting? Should they be hiring simply to employ people for no good reason than to give them a paycheck?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

do you agree this resembles socialism? if not, how so?

"Fascists have advocated themselves as preserving the integrity of the nation and solving the social question by destroying the "dictatorship of money", restraining "wild capitalism" to insure national solidarity, and having a strong state that controls the economy"

i'm literally sitting here agape because of the audacity. what could i even say?

jesus holy fuck

 

[Azih]

or do you think this wiki page should be deleted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_socialism

That freaking links shows that 'Right wing socialism' is completely unlike left wing sentiment.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

oh shut up Manos, those guys just overthrew an oppressive regime who used those violent tactics that were used against occupy oakland. If their word doesn't mean anything then i don't know whose does.

Classy.

Ah yes, the hilarious attempt to compare things in the US to Egypt continues. lol

 

[minus_273]

i'm literally sitting here agape because of the audacity. what could i even say?

jesus holy fuck

please explain how your brand of socialism is different from the one promoted by national socialists?

 

[empty vessel]

Yep which is why I posted that it's not so black and white and either or type deal. He sounded like he want to nationalize the entire healthcare industry.

On the same token, more expansive publicly funded basic care is IMHO good because your ERs are pretty much your public option atm.

It's generally assumed that when one says they want universal health care or "single payer" health care that they are talking about basic health care services and not things like, e.g., breast augmentation surgery. I only felt the need to be more specific because some people insist on playing dumb.

Health care doesn't pay the bills or give you food?

It ... gives you health? Seriously, I know you think you are making a point, but you aren't. Like, at all. National health insurance will be an absolute boon to US citizens as the costs that Americans pay for their health care would instantly be cut in half. If it makes you feel better, we can take the immense savings that our government would reap in health care costs and apply it to unemployment insurance to those who lose their jobs from the small reduction of the insurance industry work force until they find other jobs--jobs they will find, mind you, using immensely higher bargaining power than they had when obtaining their previous jobs (and hence will have better working conditions even while paying only half as much for health care as before).

 

[Evlar]

i'm literally sitting here agape because of the audacity. what could i even say?

jesus holy fuck

This isn't, by the way, his own personal theory. All those books constantly pumped out by the right wing about how liberals are EVIL and Obama is a NAZI? This is part of that shtick.

please explain how your brand of socialism is different from the one promoted by national socialists?

Well, for one thing, the "nationalist" part.

 

[minus_273]

That freaking links shows that 'Right wing socialism' is completely unlike left wing sentiment.

from the article:

" destroying the "dictatorship of money", restraining "wild capitalism" to insure national solidarity, and having a strong state that controls the economy"

how is this completely different?

 

[Jangocube]

Egyptians march from Tahrir Square to support Occupy Oakland protestors

Ah, I fucking love the internet and the world unity it brings.

The average person on this planet just wants certain things without government and big business getting in the way of a good life. Eventually we will regain control of this big blue planet, but until then, protesting against these inequalities is the best route we have.

Violence is an inevitability, but hopefully things don't get too out of hand.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Classy.

Ah yes, the hilarious attempt to compare things in the US to Egypt continues. lol

when the Egyptians themselves are openly supporting and marching in solidarity to support the movement down to specific events and towns



please, please, stop this bullshit. it's tiring, Manos.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Classy.

Ah yes, the hilarious attempt to compare things in the US to Egypt continues. lol

How many strawmen do you own? 100? 200!?

Please tell me so I can start counting down and have a celebration when you run out.

 

[Azih]

Funny how the internet is full of people saying companies aren't hiring because of uncertainty is bullshit, yet nobody is out there...

They're not hiring out of uncertainty over taxes. They're not hiring over a lack of demand. Austerity further depresses demand.

Obviously the people who say that companies are sitting on piles of cash and should be hiring.

Who are these people? Point them out please.

What I see people in this thread saying is that taxes should be raised on the rich and that money should be used on government spending which will not only raise the standard of living of the rest of us but also give the economy some support (as it would stimulate demand and thus give companies some reason to invest to try to serve that demand).

Also that the super rich should not be given perpetual get out of jail free cards and should not be allowed to use their influence to guarantee that all their profits are private and all their losses are public.

 

[Dude Abides]

Obviously the people who say that companies are sitting on piles of cash and should be hiring. What should they be hiring for if there is not some demand they are not meeting? Should they be hiring simply to employ people for no good reason than to give them a paycheck?

Of course they shouldn't. But you suggested that there was a claim that companies are ignoring demand that is out there, when the claim is that companies are not hiring because there is no demand out there.

There are two competing theories for why companies aren't hiring: (1) there is little demand for goods and services, so there is no need to expand production, and thus no need to hire; (2) businesses are afraid the Secret Muslim in the White House is going to tax them to oblivion. One of these theories makes sense, one does not.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

from the article:

" destroying the "dictatorship of money", restraining "wild capitalism" to insure national solidarity, and having a strong state that controls the economy"

how is this completely different?

do you really need to have it spelled out for you by a critical comparison detailing every minute aspect of the respective social-political systems? i mean, wow, i can't believe this.

by your definition Germany, or really any European country, are still Fascist. would you like to say that to a German? how about a group of Germans in a bar? i'll call the ambulance beforehand

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It ... gives you health?

Which provides food and bill payments somehow when you are out of work?

jobs they will find, mind you, using immensely higher bargaining power than they had when obtaining their previous jobs (and hence will have better working conditions even while paying only half as much for health care as before).

The evidence for this is...?

National health insurance will be an absolute boon to US citizens as the costs that Americans pay for their health care would instantly be cut in half.

Which will be nullified to an extent by the increased taxes needed to fund it. Unless you plan for it to be run like the VA System.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

by your definition Germany is still a Fascist nation. would you like to say that to a German? how about a group of Germans in a bar? i'll call the ambulance beforehand

So you're saying that Germans' are predisposed and prone to violent reactions to random statements?

 

[ezrarh]

Obviously the people who say that companies are sitting on piles of cash and should be hiring. What should they be hiring for if there is not some demand they are not meeting? Should they be hiring simply to employ people for no good reason than to give them a paycheck?

I don't know if you were referring to me or not but I wasn't implying businesses should be hiring if there's no need to expand due to no demand. Right now, businesses in the US are in a good spot, with there being excess labor supply, all the power is held by the employer. So, I realize that they are sitting on piles of cash but don't expect them to use it if they don't need it. Just saying they won't expand because of uncertainty in tax rates is a farce however. I'd rather have the government tax that money to use for social services and investment in improving the country.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

So you're saying that Germans' are predisposed and prone to violent reactions to random statements?

by someone resolutely stating that they are living in a Fascist state? i'd just say it's not a smart thing to do to a region where that's on the collective memory. Hey tell a Czech how awesome the communists are! you'll be great friends

you really are the definition of a contrarian though, and you pick the perfect things to be contrarian to because it just stifles meaningful discussion.

 

[Mortrialus]

Actually, most people are saying the problem is lack of demand and not 'uncertainty about taxes'. And even The National Federation of Independent Businesses, the most right wing of the major business groups agrees:

Don't even bother. You can't argue with these people.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201108170041

 

[Sysgen]

Businesses expand when there is demand. The uncertainty now is that people are broke and can only afford the base necessities. Companies are already sitting on billions of cash. You're trying to tell me they won't expand because there's uncertainty that marginal income taxes might go up from 36 to 39%? There hasn't been a real scent of Congress trying to actually raise taxes on businesses besides shutting down loopholes.

Many small businesses file under S-Corps and yes raising taxes on "millionaires" to "pay their fair share" has been discussed quite widely in Congress. Who do you think they mean by millionaires? S-corp profits get passed through into the owners' personal income tax returns and may push them into higher tax brackets, even though they're not taking extremely large salaries.

 

[Azih]

Don't even bother. You can't argue with these people.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201108170041

You can highlight how absurd they are though. What's changed is that showing the absurdity is starting to get more sympathetic play in the media. Which is a step in the right direction.

 

[minus_273]

do you really need to have it spelled out for you by a critical comparison detailing every minute aspect of the respective social-political systems? i mean, wow, i can't believe this.

by your definition Germany, or really any European country, are still Fascist. would you like to say that to a German? how about a group of Germans in a bar? i'll call the ambulance beforehand

i never said that did i? nor did i call you fascists. I didnt even say that it was the same thing. go back and look at all my posts. I simply said that there are economic goals that you share with nazis. its not my fault you have something in common with nazis. if you are that uncomfortable with the thought of that, maybe you should look at your own beliefs.

 

[Wazzim]

I don't need to imply it, the nazis are at your rallies and they suppport you because your economic agendas overlap in places.

Now tell me what's wrong with the economic agenda of nazis? Because I suspect you don't know shit fuck about anything.

 

[empty vessel]

please explain how your brand of socialism is different from the one promoted by national socialists?

Most people here aren't socialists (although most all do believe at least in mixed economies). I am. So let me tell you how they are different. I am a socialist who believes that workers should control the means of production, rather than their being placed in private individual hands for private profit. That is the essence of socialism (which, it might surprise you to know, is not strictly incompatible with the concept of free markets). The Nazis did not believe that:

The Nazis claimed that communism was dangerous to the well-being of nations because of its intention to dissolve private property, its support of class conflict, its aggression against the middle class, its hostility to small businessmen, and its atheism. Nazism rejected class conflict-based socialism and economic egalitarianism, favouring instead a stratified economy with social classes based on merit and talent, retaining private property, and the creation of national solidarity that transcends class distinction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Economics

Ergo, Nazis are not socialists. Incidentally, I agree with chichikov that Nazis were not "free market advocates," although capitalism was permitted up to the point that it interfered with Nazi State goals and no further. That's why there is a another term for what Nazis were: fascists.

Next you're going to insist that we reject belief in democracy because of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Why might a party or entity use a word to characterize itself that isn't truly representative of the entity? Can you think of any reason? If I told you that socialism was popular and carried a positive connotation in post WWI Germany, might that help you think of a reason?

 

[NullPointer]

I simply said that there are economic goals that you share with nazis. its not my fault you have something in common with nazis. if you are that uncomfortable with the thought of that, maybe you should look at your own beliefs.

You're a real piece of work Minus.

 

[Deku]

It's generally assumed that when one says they want universal health care or "single payer" health care that they are talking about basic health care services and not things like, e.g., breast augmentation surgery. I only felt the need to be more specific because some people insist on playing dumb.

You wrote:

I don't know, why don't you ask all the other countries in the world that use their governments as sole insurers.

I got the same impression that you meant everything is insured publicly, which is cost prohibitive, even if you exclude frivolous medical procedures.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

It happened, it really happened, someone is seriously correlating the movement to Nazism because he decided that the goals of the Occupy movement are 'socialist' (huh??), and National Socialism has Socialism written in the name, therefore... Occupy = Nazi

All Horses have four legs
all horses are mammals

therefore, all mammals have four legs

 

[Ken Masters]

Have they made it clear what they want from wall street, specifically?