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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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alstein

Member
When people have more to lose, and the folks at the Occupy protests have a lot more to lose then the tea partiers did by comparison if their side loses, they're going to be more desperate and more confrontational.

This is why the rich don't protest on the street, they're not desperate enough to risk arrests and beatings.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
CrocMother said:
ONLY 2-3%???!!

It's ridiculous that anyone with a full time job is making minimum wage. You can barely support yourself using that. Forget about a family.

Never looked at a min. wage job as a career. It's a starting point.
 

Azih

Member
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Oh really? How many who start at minimum wage jobs stay there? Let's see those stats.
Well both sides have made claims here (it's a starting point! It isn't for many!). I wouldn't mind seeing stats either but the onus is on both sides to provide data.

In any case it's easier to find information about the distribution of income for households which should be enough to draw conclusions about how well people manage to get away from minimum wage jobs. Witnessing the rise of the 'working poor' leads to be more in the camp of people who say that many people aren't making enough to provide the necessities for their families despite working.
 

Wazzim

Banned
NervousXtian said:
Never looked at a min. wage job as a career. It's a starting point.
I hope you know the idea of minimum wage started when many parents couldn't pay the food, eduaction and shelter for their kids. This made it necessary for the parents to let their kids work. I bet the rich industrial elite 'warned' us to not impletent it back then too.
 
Wazzim said:
I hope you know the idea of minimum wage started when many parents couldn't pay the food, eduaction and shelter for their kids. This made it necessary for the parents to let their kids work. I bet the rich industrial elite 'warned' us to not impletent it back then too.
Who cares, that was then, not now.

Azih said:
In any case it's easier to find information about the distribution of income for households which should be enough to draw conclusions about how well people manage to get away from minimum wage jobs. Witnessing the rise of the 'working poor' leads to be more in the camp of people who say that many people aren't making enough to provide the necessities for their families despite working.
Maybe they should look for jobs better than minimum wage.

It's why I quit Gamestop in Grad school and found another job working at a hotel (within a week).
 
Azih said:
Humans are the same.

And how does that one liner justify stop caring about history as you advocated anyway?
Because it did.

Desquattifed
Zuccotti-blog480.jpg


http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/zuccotti-largely-unoccupied-and-quiet/

Oh despite Mercuric Freds ranting like a loon the OWS Library WAS NOT DESTROYED

http://gothamist.com/2011/11/15/occupy_wall_street_library.php

As we originally reported at 4:15 a.m., the NYPD and Department of Sanitation tossed the entire contents of the Occupy Wall Street library into some dumpsters. At that time, the library's Twitter account transmitted this message: "The NYPD has destroyed everything at #OccupyWallStreet and put it all in dumpsters, including the #OWSLibrary. It's time to #ShutDownNYC." The library had more than 5,000 books, and recently Patti Smith funded a more permanent structure (pictured) to house it in.
Even though the city has been telling protesters that things would be stored in a Department of Sanitation facility at 650 West 57th Street in Manhattan, and could be picked up after noon, many believed and reported that the books had been destroyed. When we called the DoS this afternoon it wasn't looking good, the woman who answered the phone simply told us, "my boss isn't sure where the books are." And earlier today the library's blog had updated saying tonight at 6 p.m., "writers and readers from across New York City will gather in Liberty Plaza to reoccupy the space and rebuild the People’s Library."
But alas, good news has just arrived via the Mayor's Twitter account: the books are "safely stored" at the West 57th Street garage, and can be picked up tomorrow. They even provided photographic evidence. But how about the book shelter that Smith provided?

dr7nd.jpg
 
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Your post confirms my feeling is that there are a significant number of people who don't care about a message. For many, this has now become more about confrontation than delivering a narrative. And it may end badly.

Those cockroaches are sadly almost allways part of protests. When protesters occupied the Auditorium Maximum at the University of Vienna, some of them were only there to stir shit up, put graffities on the University halls and kick in doors. Let alone that they started housing homeless people there. Ultimately these criminals have caused enough trouble for the University to call the cops and to have the entire protesters evicted.

Especially when it comes to a young audience, there is allways a group that uses the opportunity to stir up shit and co opt a legitimate protest. Also young protesters often are too idealistic when facing the problem of leadership. In their attempt to be as democratic as possible they completely fail to recognize that leadership isn't undemocratic but a core function of working organisation. Then again, many of them lack the experience of organising anything bigger than a BBQ or a Birthday party.

Leadership is necessary, allthough it doesn't have to be tied to a specific person, but that's most likely the easiest way to do it.

Azih said:
Uh, we need to learn from history, not stop caring about it.

As a student of history, this statement makes me laugh. (no offense)
 

Barrett2

Member
Saw a Facebook post by my 19 yr old cousin with questionable(?) mental health saying he was driving to NYC to be part of the protest. I am seriously paranoid he is going to email me looking for a place to stay.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
Oh really? How many who start at minimum wage jobs stay there? Let's see those stats.
There are plenty of people out there who, for one reason or another, just aren't that book smart, and end up relying on waitering or catering at sport events for a living. My brother is one of them, although he has also delved into bartending in the past and has taken up work doing tiling.

The one constant job he's had is catering at sporting events though.


He's 28, and is probably the hardest worker I've ever met. He never misses a day of work, and he ALWAYS helps fill in when they're short staffed. There is only one time he has not done so, and that was a few years ago when he was asked on his birthday if he could come fill in for someone who was sick.

Now, while his catering and tiling jobs do pay more than the federal minimum wage, the hours are ridiculously inconsistent, and the tiling gig definitely wears on his body.

Though he makes more than minimum wage, the circumstances are identical for a lot of people, people who end up waitering at olive garden or something for a living. And those positions are another story.



Not really minimum wage, but you know those 1700 foot tall guyed towers? The people who climb up and repair those make as little as $40k on roughly $20 an hour pay.

I'm sure you, like me, have a comfy job that pays extremel ywell, with great benefits, providing you plenty of financial security. But note that there are millions and millions of people working just as hard or harder than you, on jobs that are 10x as dangerous, for a fraction of the pay you receive. And there are also millions of people who work much less than you that make several times what you do. This inequality is what capitalism is all about.
 
Dude Abides said:
Oh can it be now? Brilliant insight, Professor!

I said many, not most.
That's not most though and saying many implies an close to majority number.

lawblob said:
Saw a Facebook post by my 19 yr old cousin with questionable(?) mental health saying he was driving to NYC to be part of the protest. I am seriously paranoid he is going to email me looking for a place to stay.
See you need to get the Benelli!
 

Barrett2

Member
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
See you need to get the Benelli!

No kidding. I can already hear the unbearable conversations he would want to have with me about Noam Chomsky, Monsanto, etc., all while I sit on the couch saying "uh huh" over and over, while I try to play Battlefield in peace.

Was there any big clash last night at Zucotti?
 
lawblob said:
No kidding. I can already hear the unbearable conversations he would want to have with me about Noam Chomsky, Monsanto, etc., all while I sit on the couch saying "uh huh" over and over, while I try to play Battlefield in peace.
Ugh sounds like a real pleasure. Hmm you could try and trick him into thinking your moving. Don't say out of town though, he may try and let himself in.

Speaking of Battlefield :)
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php

Was there any big clash last night at Zucotti?
Zilch.
 
GaimeGuy said:
Not really minimum wage, but you know those 1700 foot tall guyed towers? The people who climb up and repair those make as little as $40k on roughly $20 an hour pay.

If more people were paid $40k, there would be less complaining to go around.

I've scraped by on far less.
 

Dash27

Member
Putting aside if you support or oppose this movement, would we all agree that shit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilq_66LnRaw

(some dude threatening to molotov cocktail Macy's... for some reason)

Will lead to polls like this:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html
(OWS number in the crapper)

Would we then further agree that no matter what you're protesting, you're going to draw a certain percentage of nuts, mentally ill and/or stupid people?

I would suggest this is the Occupy movements biggest problem right now. The optics are terrible and the police are specifically aware of the sentiment that any bad behavior on their side generates so they are trying to minimize that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/n...bright-lights-and-loudspeakers.html?_r=1&hp#p

Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly was at the center, his presence underscoring how the operation was fraught with challenges for the Police Department. There could be no repeat of episodes in recent weeks, like the pepper-spraying of protesters, that violated department rules and created a firestorm of public sympathy for the squatters.

I think this model will not be successful as is.
 
Dude Abides said:
Yep, you can tell because I don't invent my own personal meanings for words to suit whatever my needs of the moment happen to be, Humpty.
Hmm, no considering what you just tried to pull, I think you clearly enjoy inventing your own meanings for words.
 
How the First Amendment got hijacked

A funny thing happened to the First Amendment on its way to the public forum. According to the Supreme Court, money is now speech and corporations are now people. But when real people without money assemble to express their dissatisfaction with the political consequences of this, they’re treated as public nuisances and evicted.

First things first. The Supreme Court’s rulings that money is speech and corporations are people have now opened the floodgates to unlimited (and often secret) political contributions from millionaires and billionaires.

This tsunami of big money into politics is the real public nuisance. It’s making it almost impossible for the voices of average Americans to be heard because most of us don’t have the dough to break through. By granting First Amendment rights to money and corporations, the First Amendment rights of the rest of us are being trampled on.

--

This is where the Occupiers come in. If there’s a core message to the Occupier movement it’s that the increasing concentration of income and wealth poses a grave danger to our democracy.

http://www.salon.com/
 

jorma

is now taking requests
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Not really, I've done financial deals with people knowing rudimentary English and while not perfect, it's far from awkward.

The awkward bit would be when the foreigner schools you in the language.
 
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:

Indeed
The Occupy Wall Street movement is not wearing well with voters across the country. Only 33% now say that they are supportive of its goals, compared to 45% who say they oppose them. That represents an 11 point shift in the wrong direction for the movement's support compared to a month ago when 35% of voters said they supported it and 36% were opposed. Most notably independents have gone from supporting Occupy Wall Street's goals 39/34, to opposing them 34/42.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Talk about some tired and paranoid ravings to try and justify the criminal behavior of the squatters. lol

Thank goodness justice won out over criminality and intimidation yesterday.

Justice would be campaign finance reform. I'm really confused on how you approach OWS. You equate the criminality of average americans living in tents on public parks to the criminality of wall street (causing the 2008 recession, hurting the middle class).

edit: Wait, it actually seems like "squatting" is more criminal, judging from your posts.

Can you set the record straight, so I can better understand your priorities?
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Hmm, no considering what you just tried to pull, I think you clearly enjoy inventing your own meanings for words.

This is just embarrassing for you. Many does not imply most or something close to it. "Many people are Chinese" is a true statement. "Most people are Chinese" is not a true statement. Even children understand the difference, but apparently it eludes you.
 
gutter_trash said:
where do you draw the lien when Occupy turns into squatting and building shanty-towns?
Well I've heard Occupy Philly has been shitting all over the place they've been occupying

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/2...__tarnish_Occupy_message.html?cmpid=131298094

But it turns out that 99 percent of America includes a hard-core faction of as many as 10-20 anarchists who've feuded with Occupy Philly's more moderate originators, as well as the city's large homeless population, which began to dominate the tent city at Dilworth Plaza as cold weather sent better-off protesters home.

The positive political message of the Occupy movement was increasingly drowned out by a drumbeat of negative headlines, including an alleged rape over the weekend and increasingly unsanitary conditions. Police yesterday made two more arrests and said someone painted the concourse walls below the plaza with feces and graffiti.

Not long after a homeless man was punched in the face at Occupy Philly yesterday afternoon, a group of people confronted another homeless man sitting along the north end of City Hall. He had been accused of being a "sexual predator" who often "bumps and grinds" up against women, said the woman who confronted him, loudly.

Police spoke with the man for several minutes. Then he went and got free ice cream. "Why can't we all just eat ice cream and get along?" a man in camouflage yelled in the middle of it all.

Last night, with Occupy Philly clearly teetering on the brink, there was suddenly hope that the Nutter administration and a so-called sensible group of longtime occupiers could reach an agreement on a new location.

Such a plan would allow for the start of a $50 million project to remake Dilworth Plaza on the west apron of City Hall - but it could also still lead to an eventual confrontation between police and a "radical" caucus who seem determined to stay at Dilworth no matter what.

City Managing Director Richard Negrin said his office had a breakthrough during a meeting yesterday with about 25 members of Occupy Philly's "Reasonable Solutions People."

"They expressed a willingness to work together and to relocate," Negrin said. "They agreed to weekly meetings and having an ongoing dialogue. It was very positive."

The Occupy members told city officials that the majority of protesters felt it was time to reach out to the city and find workable solutions. "They said they had approximately 500 signatures," Negrin said.

City officials gave the occupiers a blank permit for a possible new location for their protests. "We didn't dictate any terms," Negrin said. "We asked them to bring us a proposal."

Over the course of 5 1/2 weeks, the current Dilworth site has become a magnet for the homeless, and last week there appeared to be a tipping point as chillier weather and deteriorating conditions drove away some of the original protesters.

"The whole area down there is nasty," said Police Chief Inspector Joseph Sullivan, who is in charge of the cops assigned to the Occupy Philly detail.

Sullivan said he was disappointed with the changes in tone and behavior that he's seen firsthand with the movement during the past month.

"It started off well. They were very cooperative, and we cooperated with them, escorting them on marches and stopping traffic for them," he said.


"Now we're hearing, 'F--- you, pigs!' and 'Death to pigs!' If there was a triggering incident, it would be easier to understand. But nothing's happened."

Sullivan said a 45-year-old homeless woman who was staying at the campsite told police she was punched and slapped by a 47-year-old man shortly before 1 a.m. yesterday. Cops arrested the man, who was also homeless, several hours later.

But bad behavior by some of the homeless lured by free food, a warming tent and other amenities hasn't been the only problem ripping apart the encampment.

Longtime activists also blame a radical element, which they tied to one longtime participant, Cindy Milstein, a nationally known anarchist writer who moved to Philadelphia right before the occupation started.

Members of the "sensible" faction say that Milstein is linked to a group of roughly 10 to 20 anarchists in Occupy Philly and that their numbers were swelled by outsiders, possibly bused in, on Friday night, when an assembly voted to defy the city and remain at Dilworth.

Milstein denied that she was a negative influence on the Occupy movement or that anarchists had been bused in. She instead blamed the dissension at Dilworth on three or so leaders of the "sensible" faction determined to keep control of the movement.

"For a small group of people, it's hard for them to listen and to change," Milstein said. "It's scary for a lot of us."
 
Karma Kramer said:
Justice would be campaign finance reform.
Actually what you propose is unconstitutional restriction of free speech.

I'm really confused on how you approach OWS. You equate the criminality of average americans living in tents on public parks to the criminality of wall street (causing the 2008 recession, hurting the middle class).
You seem to be justifying criminal behavior because of the criminal behavior of another.

Dude Abides said:
This is just embarrassing for you. Many does not imply most or something close to it. "Many people are Chinese" is a true statement. "Most people are Chinese" is not a true statement. Even children understand the difference, but apparently it eludes you.
You need to calm down and just move on man. It's okay for you to be wrong.
 

richiek

steals Justin Bieber DVDs
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:

Doesn't change the public's concern for wealth inequality in the US, according to that link:

I don’t think the bad poll numbers for Occupy Wall Street reflect Americans being unconcerned with wealth inequality. Polling we did in some key swing states earlier this year found overwhelming support for raising taxes on people who make over $150,000 a year. In late September we found that 73% of voters supported the ‘Buffett rule’ with only 16% opposed. And in October we found that Senators resistant to raising taxes on those who make more than a million dollars a year could pay a price at the polls. I don’t think any of that has changed- what the downturn in Occupy Wall Street’s image suggests is that voters are seeing the movement as more about the ‘Occupy’ than the ‘Wall Street.’ The controversy over the protests is starting to drown out the actual message.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Actually what you propose is unconstitutional restriction of free speech.

You seem to be justifying criminal behavior because of the criminal behavior of another.

Answer the question, is wall street criminality = public disturbance (aka protesting)?

Our government is being bought by corporations, we have the greatest income inequality since the great depression, and you think thats fine because of a narrowly decided supreme court decision?
 
I think most people that are mad about OWS getting broke up miss the point that they should have been in DC and DC alone. Lawmakers make the rules and they can change them. Not to mention the allegations of some US lawmakers part of some insider trading BS recently. Not sure if OWS organizers don't understand or if they don't want the inconvenience of having to change the name of the protest.

Build your feces filled shanty town in DC! It makes sense.
 
Karma Kramer said:
Answer the question, is wall street criminality = OWS squatting criminality?
If you phrase the question correctly (as I've fixed it) I might answer saying criminality is wrong on both ends. You however tried to make one criminality seem good compared to the other. Criminality is wrong as I've said on both ends.

richiek said:
Doesn't change the public's concern for wealth inequality in the US, according to that link:
Is there anything wrong with that? No! This is talking about American rejecting squatting, criminality, public defecation, and intimidation.

Our government is being bought by corporations, we have the greatest income inequality since the great depression, and you think thats fine because of a narrowly decided supreme court decision?
You are one paranoid man or did you just start reading Chomsky for the first time in College? lol
 

Azih

Member
richiek said:
Doesn't change the public's concern for wealth inequality in the US, according to that link:
What's needed is either a charismatic sensible figure (MLK type) or specific slogans that speak to Americans that can be shouted on daily marches.
 
Dude Abides said:
Says the guy spamming the thread like a drunken ape.
How do you know so much about drunken apes? I mean you're a lawyer, have you been illegally liquoring up apes?

Azih said:
What's needed is either a charismatic sensible figure (MLK type) or specific slogans that speak to Americans that can be shouted on daily marches.
Funny I've been saying that all along.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
You need to calm down and just move on man. It's okay for you to be wrong.

I no longer believe you graduated from law school. Or US law schools are terribad, because you really need to be able to grasp these sort of subtle (or in this case not so subtle) nuances in language in order to be able to function as a jurist.
 
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