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[Something Wicked]

I already called it, they're just waiting.

The time bomb is ticking, they will keep on delaying till they are fully ready to bail out of the country and let it die. Everything is allowed as long as the people don't get their voice and the truth in 'democracy'.

Zuccotti Park, the US, will fucking burn after 2012 if they keep on this pace.
And the rich will flee with a big part of the country's capital and let it sink, just like Greece's elite is doing. I just hope the rats will pay in the end but there will always be another bastard country ready to help them.

Human corruption has no cure.

Bwhahahaha!

I'll bet you $1,000 that the US is still functioning democracy with a GDP of well over $14 trillion (PPP) after 2012.

I love my all inclusive VA benefits. I thank you guys who pay for everything, especially you turds who are so against it.

And some people wonder why taxpayers are hesitant in giving the government more money when there are such classy recipients as yourself.

 

[Sky Chief]

Human corruption has no cure.

This is exactly why the proposals put forward by the Occupy movements are absurd. Almost every one boils down to giving ever more money to the government to disburse. Such solutions will only make corruption and cronyism a bigger problem.

 

[Azih]

This is exactly why the proposals put forward by the Occupy movements are absurd. Almost every one boils down to giving ever more money to the government to disburse. Such solutions will only make corruption and cronyism a bigger problem.

How does this explain the government run VHA and Medicare/Medicaid systems being more efficient and effective than private healthcare?

 

[.GqueB.]

Theres only one solution to all of this. Wait until all the old people in charge are dead. And then kill their sons. If youre with me post a subtle: U_U

PM's with assignments will be sent out within the year.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Bwhahahaha!

I'll bet you $1,000 that the US is still functioning democracy with a GDP of well over $14 trillion (PPP) after 2012.




And some people wonder why taxpayers are hesitant in giving the government more money when there are such classy recipients as yourself.

Yup, I earned it turd. And I, and the brave people who take it do so knowing shit stains like you reap the rewards of our sacrifices.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Is this the style you use arguing in your imaginary job as well?

The funniest thing was my initial comment had nothing to do with my job. Just a movie I sold my copy of to a person in Japan. You're the one who brought jobs into it.

They were too busy covering the wound with a bandaid, when surgery was needed. Of course you're not going to ween the VA during hot conflict, but they knew the shape Walter Reed's facilities were in. They spent billions on JIEDDO type projects, but all the servicemen with brain injuries, long term mental issue theories went suppressed, and the issue was largely ignored for years. They spend money on what they think is important, injured soldiers who aren't headed back? Not a priority. They knew reforms were needed, but they put their attentions and efforts and money elsewhere. VA was relegated to maintenance during the worst of it. And now that things have calmed down, the bad cops and worse cops were still willing to ignore much of what needed improving.

I agree totally and that's what bothered me so much and to me shows the potential problems. It's why I want it fixed before expanding. It's why I know some servicemen who had (relatively) minor injuries and could have received benefits, but choose not to and I quote "because I'd have to let them touch me" This wasn't a general paranoia comment mind you it was about faith and trust in the VA and VA Hospitals. It's also why people have concerns with government managed health care in this country. Look I generally believe in health care for the indigent and elderly, or children (like CHIPS in PA), but I just don't think wide scale is sustainable for a country of this size (as opposed to say Sweden)

VA incidents happen all the time, but serious structural VA issues while you're managing a long term military campaign overseas? To let what they did slide, I'd call it criminal, some would call it incompetent, but the GOP would just call it tough-minded fiscal responsibility.

I agree with what you're saying entirely. It was a mix of criminal, negligence, and even worse than ignorance, (criminal) indifference (at least with ignorance the person didn't know better with indifference they did and they didn't give a fuck).

 

[Choke on the Magic]

No, our current shit system is already not sustainable. Universal health care such as it's implemented in other developed countries would save us money. It sounds like you haven't reasearched this very much.

I don't have that luxury as when the bill was passed my premium skyrocketed at my job. Then the following year my job dropped our old coverage in favor a high deductable shit HSA. My son needed breathing treatments when he was born last year and it cost $800+ for the breathing treatments. $800 is only a 1/3 of my deductable. btw I work at a hospital. My research goes into figuring out how to have the money to be able to take care of my family with the options laid before me.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I don't have that luxury as when the bill was passed my premium skyrocketed at my job. Then the following year my job dropped our old coverage in favor a high deductable shit HSA. My son needed breathing treatments when he was born last year and it cost $800+ for the breathing treatments. $800 is only a 1/3 of my deductable. btw I work at a hospital. My research goes into figuring out how to have the money to be able to take care of my family with the options laid before me.

My job as a result of the Health Care bill went from five options to two. Luckily premiums weren't horribly increased. We got a traditional type one (which was fine, with no cuts) and a bullshit HSA type plan. I couldn't even imagine anyone with a family or in anything less than great health taking the HSA. I'd honestly look for a new job if I had to deal with HSA only.

 

[The Librarian]

One of the main reasons why VHA is more cost efficient than Medicare (which, again, is more cost efficient, on average, than your best private insurers) is that it's able to directly negotiate prescription drug prices. Medicare can't. It instead has the crappy Medicare Part D which, unsurprisingly, isn't able to hold down costs as effectively as its single-payer counterparts.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

One of the main reasons why VHA is more cost efficient than Medicare (which, again, is more cost efficient, on average, than your best private insurers) is that it's able to directly negotiate prescription drug prices. Medicare can't. It instead has the crappy Medicare Part D which, unsurprisingly, isn't able to hold down costs as effectively as its single-payer counterparts.

That said though does cost efficient come at a quality cost? Look I don't want cost efficient care, I want quality care.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

My job as a result of the Health Care bill went from five options to two. Luckily premiums weren't horribly increased. We got a traditional type one (which was fine, with no cuts) and a bullshit HSA type plan. I couldn't even imagine anyone with a family or in anything less than great health taking the HSA. I'd honestly look for a new job if I had to deal with HSA only.

All of the hospitals in my area have adopted this. The ones that retained stuff like a traditional PPO have the premiums jacked up anywhere from $250-350 per pay period premiums. I don't have options for a career switch.

 

[Dude Abides]

Sounds like some people need to get out there and find jobs with better healthcare packages. What happened to your guys' bootstraps?

 

[Slayven]

what are OWS' plains now that they can't have sleeping bags and tents? Going to start getting really cold really soon.

 

[The Librarian]

That said though does cost efficient come at a quality cost? Look I don't want cost efficient care, I want quality care.

Once again, VHA is able to do both extremely well. It's the best health care system in the US.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

All of the hospitals in my area have adopted this. The ones that retained stuff like a traditional PPO have the premiums jacked up anywhere from $250-350 per pay period premiums. I don't have options for a career switch.

That stinks, but at least you do have something. I'd still look around for any type of switch that or if your spouse is in a different job what plan they have.

Sounds like some people need to get out there and find jobs with better healthcare packages. What happened to your guys' bootstraps?

I didn't say my helathcare plan I used was bad. What are you talking about? I even said if I only had HSA as a choice I would find a new job.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Once again, VHA is able to do both extremely well. It's the best health care system in the US.

I'd give it more credence if he didn't ignore the problems I and also akira28 mentioned. That said Klien even says "If I could choose my health-care reform, I don’t think I’d go as far towards government control as the VA does. "

 

[Fenderputty]

That said though does cost efficient come at a quality cost? Look I don't want cost efficient care, I want quality care.

Nations with universal health care are all healthier than your average American. They live longer too.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Nations with universal health care are all healthier than your average American. They live longer too.

They also have significantly smaller populations and thus lower costs, but even then far far higher taxes.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

That stinks, but at least you do have something. I'd still look around for any type of switch that or if your spouse is in a different job what plan they have.



I didn't say my helathcare plan I used was bad. What are you talking about? I even said if I only had HSA as a choice I would find a new job.

My wife's job is the only thing keeping us a float as far as health insurance goes. Only problem is she works for the state of Illinois and they're constantly having money issues not paying their part on the insurance so it's not out of the ordinary for us to get the full bill for our medical expenses along with calls from the health care provider trying to get us to pay Illinois part. I even had one when my son was born say if we didn't it would go against our credit rating. I've never had such a bad experience with health care until the past couple years.

 

[Azih]

They also have significantly smaller populations and thus lower costs

That's why you take a look at cost per capita which takes that into account. And they outperform the states.

 

[Wazzim]

Bwhahahaha!

I'll bet you $1,000 that the US is still functioning democracy with a GDP of well over $14 trillion (PPP) after 2012.

Like $1,000 will be worth shit by then. I'll probably have to pay you just over 300 Northern-Euro's max.

This is exactly why the proposals put forward by the Occupy movements are absurd. Almost every one boils down to giving ever more money to the government to disburse. Such solutions will only make corruption and cronyism a bigger problem.

We can fight corruption in the central government easier than a global financial system.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

i have that fuck Manos blocked but his disgusting comments still leak through quotes;

"i want quality healthcare, not quantity"

well fuck, you know what's a good quality of healthcare? having healthcare at all


you're seriously saying YOU, YOU AND YOU ALONE want healthcare at the cost of EVERYONE ELSE NOT HAVING IT. you're such a fucking fuck dude


and that's still not getting into the factuality of that sort of false dichotomy, as there isn't in any way this ridiculous inverse relationship between quality and quantity in the rest of the developed world. but your perverted, sick mentality itself is what permeates our shitty system because OH NO THOSE OTHER POOR PEOPLE MIGHT GET HEALTHCARE (at all) AT THE COST OF MY OWN

 

[Choke on the Magic]

i have that fuck Manos blocked but his disgusting comments still leak through quotes;

"i want quality healthcare, not quantity"

well fuck, you know what's a good quality of healthcare? having healthcare at all


you're seriously saying YOU, YOU AND YOU ALONE want healthcare at the cost of EVERYONE ELSE NOT HAVING IT. you're such a fucking fuck dude


and that's still not getting into the factuality of that sort of false dichotomy, as there isn't in any way this inverse relationship between quality and quantity in the rest of the developed world. but your perverted, sick mentality itself permeates itself through our entire country and is the reason our current system is so fucked up.

Do you have a job?

 

[The Librarian]

Yup, I earned it turd. And I, and the brave people who take it do so knowing shit stains like you reap the rewards of our sacrifices.

You guys deserve the best health care quality in the US, and you do.

 

[kame-sennin]

Keith and Yetta Kurland, an attorney with the National Lawyers Guild, discuss Brookfield Properties’ new guidelines for protesters at Zuccotti Park, which include prohibiting camping, tents, sleeping bags and tarps. Kurland doesn’t see these restrictions slowing down the movement: “You cannot evict an idea.”

http://current.com/shows/countdown/...yetta-kurland-on-the-battle-for-zuccotti-park

 

[Something Wicked]

Yup, I earned it turd. And I, and the brave people who take it do so knowing shit stains like you reap the rewards of our sacrifices.

Your attitude is a complete disservice to the entire US military. I'm so sure you were well liked within your deployed division, particularly by your superior officers...

That's why you take a look at cost per capita which takes that into account. And they outperform the states.

Tackle the sources of those higher costs first before you demand the services then.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

i have that fuck Manos blocked but his disgusting comments still leak through quotes;

"i want quality healthcare, not quantity"

well fuck, you know what's a good quality of healthcare? having healthcare at all


you're seriously saying YOU, YOU AND YOU ALONE want healthcare at the cost of EVERYONE ELSE NOT HAVING IT. you're such a fucking fuck dude


and that's still not getting into the factuality of that sort of false dichotomy, as there isn't in any way this ridiculous inverse relationship between quality and quantity in the rest of the developed world. but your perverted, sick mentality itself is what permeates our shitty system because OH NO THOSE OTHER POOR PEOPLE MIGHT GET HEALTHCARE (at all) AT THE COST OF MY OWN

You block me and still can't have resist responding?

You blocked me for what reason? Granted since you claim to have blocked me you won't have to respond, even if I took the time to respond. Still others may be amused by your rage post.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Do you have a job?

if i said yes, but at a shitty gig i may or may not have now, or anything other than somewhere that provides healthcare in some fashion, then what?

if i said no, then what?

but most importantly, what the fuck does that have to do with the idea that healthcare in the vain of the rest of the civilized world works, and ours doesn't, and that sick people like Manos (me me me me me me me) allow a fundamentally broken system to perpetuate itself because they benefit or at least perceive benefits from it.

 

[Azih]

Tackle the sources of those higher costs first before you demand the services then.

Three sources in the US system of higher costs in the health system are profit taking, increased admin costs, and reduced bargaining power. These three sources are taken care of in universal health care systems. The first as it's not for profit and second is as universal systems have efficiencies of scale and lastly it's because larger buyers have greater bargaining power. That's why VHA and Medicare outperform the private systems in the US.

 

[Blergmeister]

Tackle the sources of those higher costs first before you demand the services then.

Part of the reason for our high costs are because of the fragmented market we have. Insurance is cheaper the more people that are pooled together. That is why a universal health care provider (the state) makes the most sense and why the largest health care insurance providers in the US are the most efficient (Medicaid, Medicare.)

 

[Barrett2]

Fuck. It begins. Just got this message. -_-

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Fuck. It begins. Just got this message. -_-

Get your ass to PA!

 

[Wazzim]

Fuck. It begins. Just got this message. -_-

Wait, what begins? What's that message about?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Wait, what begins? What's that message about?

his family member is gonna leech from him. Manos and other posters are going to use this as a wide ranging implication as to the character of the entire movement. hilarity insues

 

[.GqueB.]

Fuck. It begins. Just got this message. -_-

bwwhwhhahahahhah. They sell some pretty good blow up beds at target. Get one of the double decker ones that blow themselves up. Much more efficient for storage and setting up. This way he can maximize his protesting time.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

bwwhwhhahahahhah. They sell some pretty good blow up beds at target. Get one of the double decker ones that blow themselves up. Much more efficient for storage and setting up. This way he can maximize his protesting time.

Nah get the M4!

Failing that he can convince him he moved recently!

 

[Something Wicked]

Three sources in the US system of higher costs in the health system are profit taking, increased admin costs, and reduced bargaining power. These three sources are taken care of in universal health care systems. The first as it's not for profit and second is as universal systems have efficiencies of scale and lastly it's because larger buyers have greater bargaining power. That's why VHA and Medicare outperform the private systems in the US.

A) Profit in the US private healthcare industry only accounts for 4% of the costs- this is fairly consistent for most major insurers across the country.

B) Increased admin costs in the private versus the public insurers? Going to need some statistics on that one.

C) I agree on the "reduced bargaining power" compared to a full fledged public option. The US government should negotiate with pharmaceuticals and medical device companies to charge to the US gov, and force other countries' healthcare programs to pay more for such products to make up the losses.

Also, I'm not sure how the VHA and Medicare "outperform" private insurers when the services offered are far inferior with the government programs than with the private insurers. I don't think you realize the many Americans can afford private insurance, just as the Swiss do, unlike much of the rest of the developed world. However, the costs have been rising too fast and will continue to rise- that rise has nothing to do with profits either.

 

[Evlar]

Fuck. It begins. Just got this message. -_-

So when your account goes on a drunken rampage and gets nuked from orbit next week, do we assume it was your cousin jacking around on your PC?

 

[Angry Fork]

The US federal government does provide healthcare. You want less restrictions on who receives such healthcare. Also, there are many restrictions within such government (not just the US) healthcare programs. Define what you want for free, as Mr. Angryfork does not seem capable to doing so.

I can't possibly tell you every loophole and what if scenario for who gets what without doing weeks of research, I already said that. The gist of what I'd want is everyone to get free healthcare as long as they didn't purposefully cause the injury/disease and no free vanity shit like breast implants. (Although fixing someone's face who's been injured in an accident and become disfigured is okay)

I'm also going to recant the line I said about having to pick and choose, I don't know why I didn't think about this before but it's completely obvious we can pay for EVERYthing, EVEN the vanity cosmetic surgeries.

Let's just take the top 10 billionares in America (this doesn't even count the rest of the list AND the millionares), their combined worth is 291 BILLION dollars.

Now let's say we use an extreme example (this would never happen and it would be far less, but it still works anyway). Let's say everyone in America right now (around 350 million people) gets Cancer. Let's assume it costs 2 million for total treatment per person (I don't even know how much Cancer treatment costs but I doubt it's even this high). That's 700 million dollars to treat every person in America if they have Cancer. The combined worth of TEN billionares DWARFS this amount. This is chump change if they were all taxed accordingly.

Note - The vast majority of Americans will never make 2 million dollars in their ENTIRE LIFETIME, let alone spend this much on their health, but like I said this is an extreme example just to show the wealth discrepancy and ridiculousness of not offering free healthcare (by taxing the rich).

Now the total cost would be around 700 million (in the most extreme example of everyone getting Cancer and costing 2 mil each which in itself is a high number). 1 billionaire could pay this off ON HIS OWN and still have 24 billion left for himself. It's absolutely bat shit insane.

NYC wanted to build a FOOTBALL STADIUM of all things that cost this much, and you're going to tell me we can't afford free healthcare? You simply cannot have common sense and tell me the combined worth of 291 billion (of only 10 billionaires) cannot pay for the healthcare of everyone in the country. And education is even less! Imagine if every person in the country had 400,000$ tuition each (another extremely high, this would assume everyone is becoming a doctor), that could be paid for just as easily by the billionaires and they'd still have billions left for themselves. Do you really think this is fair?

So there, now we don't have to have death panels to choose who lives and dies, everyone can get healthcare, it can be afforded (and education) for every single person, no matter how young or old, no matter how useless or stupid. Why should we be against allowing billionaires to pay for these things? When the most we'll be taking from each one is less than 1% of their overall worth?

 

[maharg]

Now let's say we use an extreme example (this would never happen and it would be far less, but it still works anyway). Let's say everyone in America right now (around 350 million people) gets Cancer. Let's assume it costs 2 million for total treatment per person (I don't even know how much Cancer treatment costs but I doubt it's even this high). That's 700 million dollars to treat every person in America if they have Cancer. The combined worth of TEN billionares DWARFS this amount. This is chump change if they were all taxed accordingly.

350,000,000 * $2,000,000 = $700,000,000,000,000

This isn't a refutation of your basic argument, for reference, just that this calculation is completely out of whack.

 

[Angry Fork]

350,000,000 * $2,000,000 = $700,000,000,000,000

One and done.

The biggest brain fart in recorded history (me forgetting about the rest of the zero's).

Completely ignore my post and carry on folks. I still hold my ground though as that example was the most extreme. I should look up statistics for what the average person pays in healthcare and base it on that.

edit - If that isn't tag worthy I don't know what is, I can only hope an admin doesn't see it. The embarrassment is overwhelming. I wrote all that for nothing now I was all on my high horse and shit too. FUCK!

 

[cooljeanius]

Your post confirms my feeling is that there are a significant number of people who don't care about a message. For many, this has now become more about confrontation than delivering a narrative. And it may end badly.

Yeah, exactly, that was another thing brought up.

Also, I've changed my point of view on Manos. While he may post here too much, his presence is necessary to keep this thread from becoming a circlejerk like /r/occupywallstreet.

 

[Angry Fork]

Yeah, exactly, that was another thing brought up.

Also, I've changed my point of view on Manos. While he may post here too much, his presence is necessary to keep this thread from becoming a circlejerk like /r/occupywallstreet.

Manos agreeing that NASA deserves better is enough for me to give him some respect. It's a shame his views on police brutality are so horrible/annoying.

 

[bounchfx]

not sure if this was posted yet, but it's really well done.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/video/2011/nov/16/99-v-1-occupy-data-animation?fb=native

it's a great explanation of why we should be kinda pissed

 

[Cloudy]

This movement had the public on it's side but that'll probably be over in a week or so. You can't just camp out being a nuisance with no goals..

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

This movement had the public on it's side but that'll probably be over in a week or so. You can't just camp out being a nuisance with no goals..

being a nuisance with no goals is at least half wrong

 

[Angry Fork]

not sure if this was posted yet, but it's really well done.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/video/2011/nov/16/99-v-1-occupy-data-animation?fb=native

it's a great explanation of why we should be kinda pissed

This kind of thing should've been in my post since it has actual numbers and not my overzealous brain fucking things up.

This movement had the public on it's side but that'll probably be over in a week or so. You can't just camp out being a nuisance with no goals..

The newspapers here already hate them. Daily News (or new york times not sure which one) had "AND STAY OUT!" as the caption on the front, made me smh. I don't know if it's because the newspapers are owned by big business but I doubt that came into play. It sounds like people are annoyed because of the actions of some douchebags in the movement ruining it for the rest.

 

[Quazar]

One and done.

The biggest brain fart in recorded history (me forgetting about the rest of the zero's).

Completely ignore my post and carry on folks. I still hold my ground though as that example was the most extreme. I should look up statistics for what the average person pays in healthcare and base it on that.

edit - If that isn't tag worthy I don't know what is, I can only hope an admin doesn't see it. The embarrassment is overwhelming. I wrote all that for nothing now I was all on my high horse and shit too. FUCK!

lol it was a good laugh. Thanks.

 

[Cloudy]

being a nuisance with no goals is at least half wrong

Ok fine. They have goals....but making public places unsanitary and unsafe while annoying local businesses helps them accomplish what exactly? If one of the goals to become hated, they're on the right track...

 

[Captain Sparrow]

The only way we'll ever be able to afford universal healthcare is to take away corporations abilities to profit off of it. Easier said than done.