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[Evlar]

Depending on the federal government to make that call correctly? That scares the shit out of me.

Why?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Why?

The VA System

 

[Fenderputty]

The VA System

So it's just our Government you don't trust to work effectively for us? Plenty of nations impliment the system fairly and well enough to make everyone happy. Why can't we?

 

[Dude Abides]

Why?

Death panels.

 

[Angry Fork]

Depending on the federal government to make that call correctly? That scares the shit out of me.

Well I don't want it in the hands of fat old white billionaires who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. At least if it's mandated by law that you have to do this then presumably the government would have to follow that through.

Only problem is now congress and the gov is also filled with rich assholes (and who pays them the extra money they earn so they vote no to "socialized OMG EVIL EVIL spreading the wealth so EVIL" healthcare.)

 

[Something Wicked]

It of course depends on the cause. If you smoked and drinked all your life you're gonna have to pay it yourself. If it's something that just sprang up because you're unlucky then yea they deserve to have it paid for them.

I'm not excusing personal responsibility, you can't expect to do hard drugs all your life, need medical treatment and then have everything given to you.

You're side stepping my question a bit. So, do you believe people deserve millions of dollars of medical treatment for free- only they didn't "smoke or drink?"

 

[renitou]

The VA System

Game, Set, Match.

 

[Downhome]

Just saw this:

http://news.yahoo.com/pregnant-teen-elderly-woman-among-pepper-sprayed-113054448.html

Is it wrong that my first thought was that maybe this type of event, with tons of people on both sides in a volatile state of mind, isn't the place for a pregnant 19 year old or 84 year old woman in the first place?

 

[Angry Fork]

You're side stepping my question a bit. So, do you believe people deserve millions of dollars of medical treatment for free- only they didn't "smoke or drink?"

There are way too many what if's and possible loopholes to go through in detail. You could write an entire book on this kind of shit and I'd have to spend weeks researching everything. I just used the no smokers thing as an example that I don't think every single person no matter what should get free healthcare for everything.

I'm saying people who can't afford it, and didn't do anything wrong to cause their injury shouldn't be thrown thousand dollar bills. If a 30 something year old gets cancer, makes 40 grand a year and can't afford what it takes to survive, his treatment should be paid even if it costs a million dollars (I don't know if that's what it costs, but he doesn't deserve to die for not having enough money but having lots of bad luck).

 

[Something Wicked]

Is it wrong that my first thought was that maybe this type of event, with tons of people on both sides in a volatile state of mind, isn't the place for a pregnant 19 year old or 84 year old woman in the first place?

Personal responsibility is not a strong suit of the OWS crowd.

There are way too many what if's and possible loopholes to go through in detail. You could write an entire book on this kind of shit and I'd have to spend weeks researching everything. I just used the no smokers thing as an example that I don't think every single person no matter what should get free healthcare for everything.

I'm saying people who can't afford it, and didn't do anything wrong to cause their injury shouldn't be thrown thousand dollar bills. If a 30 something year old gets cancer, makes 40 grand a year and can't afford what it takes to survive, his treatment should be paid even if it costs a million dollars (I don't know if that's what it costs, but he doesn't deserve to die for not having enough money but having lots of bad luck).

So, you do not understand about costs of healthcare, but demand it being free? You want money for something first, and then, afterwards you intend on "figuring out the system?"

"No, your request for funding has been denied. Your bill has been rejected. Come back, when you have a more specific plan, please."

 

[Angry Fork]

Just saw this:

http://news.yahoo.com/pregnant-teen-elderly-woman-among-pepper-sprayed-113054448.html

Is it wrong that my first thought was that maybe this type of event, with tons of people on both sides in a volatile state of mind, isn't the place for a pregnant 19 year old or 84 year old woman in the first place?

Old people shouldn't join a protest.

Pepper spray them to teach them a lesson...

what?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Well I don't want it in the hands of fat old white billionaires who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. At least if it's mandated by law that you have to do this then presumably the government would have to follow that through.

Only problem is now congress and the gov is also filled with rich assholes (and who pays them the extra money they earn so they vote no to "socialized OMG EVIL EVIL spreading the wealth so EVIL" healthcare.)

Was the white part necessary? All of the politicians in washington are cut from the same cloth as those billionares. And while I don't really agree with your opinion on health care, I do agree something needs to be done about the governments relationship with wallstreet with lobbying, bailouts, etc. I've just been harping on the way OWS has been doing it all wrong.

 

[Dude Abides]

Old people shouldn't join a protest.

Pepper spray them to teach them a lesson...

what?

That 84-year-old woman should be greeting people at Wal-Mart, not protesting.

 

[Evlar]

Ok... So I take it no one is seriously going to try to explain why the government shouldn't provide health care?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

So it's just our Government you don't trust to work effectively for us? Plenty of nations impliment the system fairly and well enough to make everyone happy. Why can't we?

Have you been to a VA hospital? Not good. At least not the one down the street from me.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Ok... So I take it no one is seriously going to try to explain why the government shouldn't provide health care?

I honestly believe it's unsustainable and would start out with great intentions and eventually provide subpar care for the entire nation.

 

[XMonkey]

I honestly believe it's unsustainable and would start out with great intentions and eventually provide subpar care for the entire nation.

You just described our current system of health care.

 

[kame-sennin]

Awesome, I love Keith's special comments.

I think he's certainly right that the eviction from Zuccotti park, and the general overreaction we're seeing on the part of the police will only strengthen the movement.

I honestly believe it's unsustainable and would start out with great intentions and eventually provide subpar care for the entire nation.

The government would only be providing the people with health insurance. Doctors and hospitals would still run private practices and institutions. Not to mention, private insurance would still exist and many middle class and wealthy people would opt to buy it in addition to free care.

 

[Something Wicked]

Ok... So I take it no one is seriously going to try to explain why the government shouldn't provide health care?

The US federal government does provide healthcare. You want less restrictions on who receives such healthcare. Also, there are many restrictions within such government (not just the US) healthcare programs. Define what you want for free, as Mr. Angryfork does not seem capable to doing so.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

You just described our current system of health care.

Medicare and Medicaid. Expand on that and that's what you'll esentially have.

 

[Fenderputty]

Have you been to a VA hospital? Not good. At least not the one down the street from me.

So just our Government then. Every other government in modern industrialized nations can succesfully impliment this system. It's just us that can't.

Got ya.

 

[discoalucard]

I honestly believe it's unsustainable and would start out with great intentions and eventually provide subpar care for the entire nation.

Good christ Europe and Canada exist, you know.

This is the internet where we can talk to people and how their systems work! Back when we were just America largely isolated from inhabitants around the rest of the globe and had no experiences to relate to anywhere else, this kind of ignorance was excusable, but now is just shameful.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Personal responsibility is not a strong suit of the OWS crowd.

oh get.the.fuck.out of here with that shit. what a low, pathetic attack. about as pathetic as you are, i'd say.

Have you been to a VA hospital? Not good. At least not the one down the street from me.

i know Americans are reallllly bad with Geography and worse with Politick, but you ever hear of Europe? or Canadia?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So it's just our Government you don't trust to work effectively for us? Plenty of nations impliment the system fairly and well enough to make everyone happy. Why can't we?

Beats me, you'd think with the VA, something on a far smaller scale would be doable and without the massive issues it has.

 

[Mortrialus]

Personal responsibility is not a strong suit of the OWS crowd.

What a fucking disgusting thing for someone to say about an 84 year old being pepper sprayed. What the fuck is wrong with you?

 

[jorma]

You haven't done that though.

I got a strong sense of deja vu here.

Is this where you claim that you negotiate financial transactions with foreigners on a daily basis?

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Good christ Europe and Canada exist, you know.

This is the internet where we can talk to people and how their systems work! Back when we were just America largely isolated from inhabitants around the rest of the globe and had no experiences to relate to anywhere else, this kind of ignorance was excusable, but now is just shameful.

Dude it's not like I wouldn't like free healthcare, but realistically with a 15 trillion deficit and climbing, a huge portion of the US population aging, Medicare and Medicaid are already shit, and so on; how the hell does one actually pay for that so everyone has quality care? I don't know and I seriously doubt Canada or Europe could tell us how with our countrys current situation.

 

[Fenderputty]

Beats me, you'd think with the VA, something on a far smaller scale would be doable and without the massive issues it has.

So just fuck it then. Give up. We can't do it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I got a strong sense of deja vu here.

Is this where you claim that you negotiate financial transactions with foreigners on a daily basis?

Oh this is the one where you and dude abides implied Indian people only work in the service industry, right?

 

[Dude Abides]

Oh this is the one where you and dude abides implied Indian people only work in the service industry, right?

I didn't imply that. D- for you.

 

[Evlar]

I'm not taking it as a given that the VA is worse than private options... In fact, they usually rate above the average among US health providers.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So just fuck it then. Give up. We can't do it.

We've done it with the Space Program, why stop there?

Look I'd love for it to work, but I don't have any faith to trust the US Government in making health decisions because of how incompetent they run the VA system. Someone fix that first and I'd be willing to look at it on a larger scale.

 

[XMonkey]

Dude it's not like I wouldn't like free healthcare, but realistically with a 15 trillion deficit and climbing, a huge portion of the US population aging, Medicare and Medicaid are already shit, and so on; how the hell does one actually pay for that so everyone has quality care? I don't know and I seriously doubt Canada or Europe could tell us how with our countries current situation.

No, our current shit system is already not sustainable. Universal health care such as it's implemented in other developed countries would save us money. It sounds like you haven't reasearched this very much.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'm not taking it as a given that the VA is worse than private options... In fact, they usually rate above the average among US health providers.

You do remember the Walter Reed Scandal right?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701172.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reed_Army_Medical_Center_neglect_scandal

No, our current shit system is already not sustainable. Universal health care such as it's implemented in other developed countries would save us money. It sounds like you haven't reasearched this very much.

Then why have countries had to scale back services, like NHS in the UK?

 

[NervousXtian]

That's sort of my point. If 30% of your expense pie is labor and that doubles, then why would your sell price double for your product or service?

My current costs are 100 dollars. Current sell price is 143 for 30% profit. 30$ of my initial costs just doubled and now costs me $60 . I now pay $130 dollars total in expenses. If I keep my same margins, my sell price would jump to $186. A whole whopping 23% increase.

I know this is a simplistic example and other expenses could potentially go up, but saying all prices would double if cheap labor does is even more simplistic.

No I mean the actual base wage of an employee isn't the only thing I'm paying as far as their payroll. I pay you $10/hr, that's not my entire cost of paying you. There's other taxes and costs involved.

 

[discoalucard]

Dude it's not like I wouldn't like free healthcare, but realistically with a 15 trillion deficit and climbing, a huge portion of the US population aging, Medicare and Medicaid are already shit, and so on; how the hell does one actually pay for that so everyone has quality care? I don't know and I seriously doubt Canada or Europe could tell us how with our countrys current situation.

I wouldn't personally be opposed to a "Federal Healthcare Tax" added on my paycheck, but beyond that there are tons of ways to do this, from shifting money from our insane defense budget to changing the patents on pharmaceutical drugs to plain old regular medical rate regulation so it doesn't cost $5,000 to go to the emergency room. And Europe's financial troubles are due to way larger things that socialized health care.

America is not special and not unique enough that it can't work. It may require removing significant bloat from the medical and pharmaceutical but it would be for the greater good.

 

[Evlar]

I'm looking at this: http://www.va.gov/health/docs/Hospital_Quality_Report.pdf

Seems a better collection of data than news reports on a scandal at one hospital. Undoubtedly, the VA needs to be policed and corrective action must be taken when there are problems. I'm all in favor of external checks to go along with these internal reports. The scandal proves the effectiveness of oversight by the public, and even today's media.

 

[akira28]

Re the VA. Veterans Affairs would do just fine except fiscally conservative pennysavers keep it on the thin list. This past year there was a big sting because congress wouldn't pass a bill to fund the increase in services.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Re the VA. Veterans Affairs would do just fine except fiscally conservative pennysavers keep it on the thin list. This past year there was a big sting because congress wouldn't pass a bill to fund the increase in services.

Than why did the biggest problems occur or come out during the massive spending of the Bush years? I mean also VA issues aren't unique to any Rep or Dem administration of recent history.

 

[Fenderputty]

No I mean the actual base wage of an employee isn't the only thing I'm paying as far as their payroll. I pay you $10/hr, that's not my entire cost of paying you. There's other taxes and costs involved.

I know this is a simplistic example and other expenses could potentially go up, but saying all prices would double if cheap labor does is even more simplistic.

Regardless ... I don't see how what you said changes anything in my previous post.

 

[Wazzim]

I cant believe it

I already called it, they're just waiting.

The time bomb is ticking, they will keep on delaying till they are fully ready to bail out of the country and let it die. Everything is allowed as long as the people don't get their voice and the truth in 'democracy'.

Zuccotti Park, the US, will fucking burn after 2012 if they keep on this pace.
And the rich will flee with a big part of the country's capital and let it sink, just like Greece's elite is doing. I just hope the rats will pay in the end but there will always be another bastard country ready to help them.

Human corruption has no cure.

 

[NervousXtian]

Regardless ... I don't see how what you said changes anything in my previous post.

Sorry, I should mention that I'm not retail. I'm in service, my labor is my largest expense, and it's not even close.

If I had to add 50 to 100% in labor, I'd have to charge considerably more for my service. The cost of retail isn't just the product they sell and it's not just the staffing labor. All those other costs would skyrocket. It might not be a doubling, but it'd be huge.. and the worst part.. it would do nothing but lower the middle-class even further.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'm looking at this: http://www.va.gov/health/docs/Hospital_Quality_Report.pdf

Seems a better collection of data than news reports on a scandal at one hospital. Undoubtedly, the VA needs to be policed and corrective action must be taken when there are problems. I'm all in favor of external checks to go along with these internal reports. The scandal proves the effectiveness of oversight by the public, and even today's media.

Check this one recent one They made a ton of recs on issues.
http://www.va.gov/oig/pubs/VAOIG-11-01406-14.pdf

I would also suggest you look at the numerous (and I mean numerous oversight reports that OIG has done on the VA)
http://www.va.gov/oig/apps/info/OversightReports.aspx

 

[The Librarian]

VA? You mean the VHA? The most efficient health care system in the US? The socialized form of medicine that delivers better quality health care than any private insurer in the US?

That government can't run a health care system is a myth. According to the latest AMA report, Medicare is, on average, more efficient than any of the major (re: private) health insurance companies.

The US government already does it better than private insurers. We just need to make it national.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

I wouldn't personally be opposed to a "Federal Healthcare Tax" added on my paycheck, but beyond that there are tons of ways to do this, from shifting money from our insane defense budget to changing the patents on pharmaceutical drugs to plain old regular medical rate regulation so it doesn't cost $5,000 to go to the emergency room. And Europe's financial troubles are due to way larger things that socialized health care.

America is not special and not unique enough that it can't work. It may require removing significant bloat from the medical and pharmaceutical but it would be for the greater good.

Another big lobby.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

VA? You mean the VHA? The most efficient health care system in the US? url=http://www.ascendantjustice.com/files/cocop/The%20Covenant/The%20Covenant%20Small/HologramGlyphs.jpg]The socialized form of medicine that delivers better quality health care than any private insurer in the US?[/url]

Your report was linked to this

A bit ironic when talking about VA goof ups.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

VA? You mean the VHA? The most efficient health care system in the US? The socialized form of medicine that delivers better quality health care than any private insurer in the US?

That government can't run a health care system is a myth. According to the latest AMA report, Medicare is, on average, more efficient than any of the major (re: private) health insurance companies.

The US government already does it better than private insurers. We just need to make it national.

I love my all inclusive VA benefits. I thank you guys who pay for everything, especially you turds who are so against it.

 

[jorma]

Oh this is the one where you and dude abides implied Indian people only work in the service industry, right?

Is this the style you use arguing in your imaginary job as well?

 

[akira28]

Than why did the biggest problems occur or come out during the massive spending of the Bush years? I mean also VA issues aren't unique to any Rep or Dem administration of recent history.

They were too busy covering the wound with a bandaid, when surgery was needed. Of course you're not going to ween the VA during hot conflict, but they knew the shape Walter Reed's facilities were in. They spent billions on JIEDDO type projects, but all the servicemen with brain injuries, long term mental issue theories went suppressed, and the issue was largely ignored for years. They spend money on what they think is important, injured soldiers who aren't headed back? Not a priority. They knew reforms were needed, but they put their attentions and efforts and money elsewhere. VA was relegated to maintenance during the worst of it. And now that things have calmed down, the bad cops and worse cops were still willing to ignore much of what needed improving.

VA incidents happen all the time, but serious structural VA issues while you're managing a long term military campaign overseas? To let what they did slide, I'd call it criminal, some would call it incompetent, but the GOP would just call it tough-minded fiscal responsibility.

 

[The Librarian]

Your report was linked to this
http://www.ascendantjustice.com/files/cocop/The%20Covenant/The%20Covenant%20Small/HologramGlyphs.jpg[/im

A bit ironic when talking about VA goof ups.[/QUOTE]
Link was fixed.