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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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Foffy

Banned
Keru_Shiri said:
This. Hell, I work full time and I'm still struggling to make ends meet, thanks to paying back my loan debt, and helping my dad with his mortgage, since he was laid off. I guess I should have "researched" that my Dad was going to be unemployed when I was planning my major, like other gaffers have, since that's apparently all that is needed to avoid debt. But even then, I don't necessarily count on the government to bail me out, I'll get that better job eventually, as I was already able to escape Papa John's, but I will sure as fuck throw my support behind any movement that's looking to capture even a tiny bit for people in my situation.

And if that makes me a spoiled brat, well, so be it.

I'm sorry about the situation with your dad. My dad lucked out as he was able to retire due to disability - working sanitation has caused him to have two heart attacks, though none were major - and now he wants to have a house. We've always rented out a floor of the house I've lived in all of my life, and I'm scared that if something comes up, he simply won't have the money to support this house and the necessities he needs. Of course I'm willing to support him the moment he asks for help, but I worry if it gets bad, minimum wage from me won't help.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
I personally don't understand the whole student loan uproar. Taking out a loan for any venture involves a great deal of risk. Are people expecting a guaranteed job coming out of school? Why not settle for a lower-paying job until the economy turns around?
 
RSTEIN said:
I personally don't understand the whole student loan uproar. Taking out a loan for any venture involves a great deal of risk. Are people expecting a guaranteed job coming out of school? Why not settle for a lower-paying job until the economy turns around?

Are you saying it is in society's interest for everybody to stop going to college? Or just the people who aren't already of a high socio-economic status? Why don't we just create a permanent untouchable caste with easily definable features if that's what we want to do?
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
empty vessel said:
Are you saying it is in society's interest for everybody to stop going to college?

Nope, I didn't say anything remotely close to that.

The job environment changes with the economy. Obviously we're not in a good economy right now. When I graduated with my degree things were shit so I had to take a really crappy job coming out of school. I didn't complain to the government about it. I did what I had to do in order to make ends meet. Then I worked hard, the economy rebounded, and I got a better job.
 
Foffy said:
I know my life isn't too bad. Recently got a job (writing for a site and making no money, but it's something!), dealing with classes (my dad paid for tuition, he never went to college), and I have time to do what I want. But I don't roll my eyes at all of the people who are clearly struggling. Hearing stories about uninsured people is just petrifying, and that's what I am scared of most with living in America. I'm sure I'll have a roof over my head, even if I have to bunker up with someone, but the nightmare of getting sick and being in financial ruin is almost as bad as a cancer in my eyes. Maybe worse, because something like that will cost you a hell of lot more than an illness you survive.

Maybe it's this economy that has me aspiring for very little. I don't want a car, a house, or a family. But I know there are many people who have to struggle with what little they really have, and it may not even be those things that are their necessities. That's why I'm all for the idea of this protest.

Some of their demands are a bit absurd, though. As people have mentioned, the student loan bit seems a bit much as the students are the ones who jumped in that loop themselves. I do think education should be free, but that evolves into a different issue and a massive overhaul of the sinking system we have in this country.

A lot of you should read this rather than forgo it and continue bickering about how to "make real change". This protest is a communal movement because the general community feels screwed--not individuals. You can still empathize with their concerns without flat-out joining them.
 
RSTEIN said:
I personally don't understand the whole student loan uproar. Taking out a loan for any venture involves a great deal of risk. Are people expecting a guaranteed job coming out of school? Why not settle for a lower-paying job until the economy turns around?
I think a lot of people are doing exactly that, those who are lucky enough to find said jobs, at least.
 
RSTEIN said:
Nope, I didn't say anything remotely close to that.

The job environment changes with the economy. Obviously we're not in a good economy right now. When I graduated with my degree things were shit so I had to take a really crappy job coming out of school. I didn't complain to the government about it. I did what I had to do in order to make ends meet. Then I worked hard, the economy rebounded, and I got a better job.

So you are saying it is in society's interest for us all to struggle instead of work together and reform the system to make it more equitable for us?

Suit yourself, but I think the position that we should suffer instead of make things better is completely silly. If I lived by that philosophy, I'd walk around with fifty extra pounds in a backpack just to make my life more difficult.
 

akira28

Member
The Albatross said:
0B48w.jpg

It gets worse : http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/27/votinghack/

Diebold machines can change votes via a man-in-the-middle data processing hack. Other machines are also susceptible.
 

SolKane

Member
The Albatross said:

This is not a crisis of responsibility, this is a crisis of ability. The simple fact is that these people do not have the ability to pay back those student loans. They were swindled by lenders, and now we are in a recession that's making employment harder for new graduates. We can discuss reforming the education system, but that does not address the issue at-hand, which is nearly 1 trillion dollars in student loan debt. And this does not just affect them at all (the personal responsibility article), this is an economic crisis waiting to happen. We can stereotype these students as "spoiled brat," as you have, but somehow I doubt that all of these students were medieval studies majors who are out of a job. Education reform must happen, and something that deals with the current level of student loans must as a necessity be part of that reform. I'm not sure how you can call them "spoiled" and still acknowledge that they live in debt, while being forced to work thankless, dead-end jobs. You talk about sacrifice, as if they have anything to sacrifice at this point.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
empty vessel said:
So you are saying it is in society's interest for us all to struggle instead of work together and reform the system to make it more equitable for us?

Suit yourself, but I think the position that we should suffer instead of make things better is completely silly. If I lived by that philosophy, I'd walk around with fifty extra pounds in a backpack just to make my life more difficult.

For sure the system needs reform. I've never understood for-profit schools, but that's just me.

I don't understand what you mean by "suffer." I think you need to read up on history a bit to understand what suffering really is. You're extremely fortunate to live in a society where you can even get a student loan so that you can attend a four year program of your choice. Suffering is not having to accept a less-than-ideal job in a really, really crappy economy.

The people I see suffering are not people lucky enough to have an education. The people who are suffering are those that don't have the skills to survive in today's changing landscape, the blue collar workers that are being priced out of their jobs by China and being left behind by the transition to a finance/information-based economy.
 

blahness

Member
JzeroT1437 said:
Wouldn't it be awesome if, rather than bailing out the banks that continue to fail every 5-10 years (new crisis projected in the coming months), we just dumped taxpayers' money into student loan debt and forgave some of it?

This is the type of shit that prevents me from taking the Occupy Wall St crowd seriously. No one forced anyone to take out a loan for college. Yes, it would be grand if everyone got free or reduced college, but to forgive debts is madness. Who is to say who gets their debts paid by the American tax payers? Since I did not go to college and now have a great job, would that mean that I can then go to college for free? Let me tell you, I would LOVE the chance to get my degree. I would like to think I made a thoughtful decision when I decided not to attend college because I knew that in the spot I was in, I would really struggle to pay back that loan. I may be lucky with the jobs I got but thats not to say I didnt work damn hard to get myself into a position to be hired. This is the one point of contention I have with this whole protest. It reeks of a pity party for a group of people who may have made bad decisions.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
RSTEIN said:
For sure the system needs reform. I've never understood for-profit schools, but that's just me.

I don't understand what you mean by "suffer." I think you need to read up on history a bit to understand what suffering really is. You're extremely fortunate to live in a society where you can even get a student loan so that you can attend a four year program of your choice. Suffering is not having to accept a less-than-ideal job in a really, really crappy economy.

The people I see suffering are not people lucky enough to have an education. The people who are suffering are those that don't have the skills to survive in today's changing landscape, the blue collar workers that are being priced out of their jobs by China and being left behind by the transition to a finance/information-based economy.
This is just semantics and it avoids the actual content of what he's arguing.
 

Deku

Banned
empty vessel said:
He was mocking people who are unhappy with the way we finance higher education in the US. That ridicule was rooted in his own ignorance about how the system worked until very recently (and which still robs people paying off student loans today), because he did not understand that financial institutions provided no actual services with respect to financing his higher education. He was under the misimpression that the financial institution from which he received a loan provided him some kind of service, when, in fact, it was the public that provided the service. The financial institution's only role was to receive interest on a loan that the public made. If one understands that, one would understand why somebody would be mad that they had to pay money to a financial institution without receiving anything in return as a condition for obtaining a college degree. Moreover, if he is "not mad" that he had to pay money to a financial institution for no services in order to obtain his own degree, he is a fool.

He wasn't mocking, just speaking the truth, and I suspect what is held by most Americans as well. The free university/post-secondary argument is fairly old and isn't going to fly.

And it is true that financial institutions need the government as the guarantor to lend to students, because if these protests show us anything, its that students are high risk debtors. But as I previously noted, this undermines the 'debtor class' argument being advanced by yourself and by others as a bogeyman. There is no conspiracy theory here, just a policy reality that creates students who exit post-secondary with debt.

Instead of insinuating a grand conspiracy to subjugate young people from lenders who would not lend on their own accord, it would be better to talk about restructuring expectations of post-secondary and creating a climate where young people can get hired.

Tuition subsidies on a structural level, so that public university and non profit universities get government support for research, have placement for art students, and connect students with jobs in work-training co-op experiences would be much better than simply subsidizing tuition to some low level because it only further inflates the cost of education as institutions adjust their cost structure to account for guaranteed cash from students.


He doesn't get to pretend as if he's the one being verbally knocked around in here given that he came in mocking people who are unhappy about having been required to be exploited in order to access higher education.
Exploited in what sense. They chose to borrow the money.

Its not very convincing to people who have no interest in improving things. I don't really care about those people. They're unreachable and unnecessary. Access to higher education is an important issue that many people care very much about, especially those in the bottom half for whom cost is a primary obstacle to higher education. Calling people "spoiled brats" for calling for better access to higher education that isn't mediated by financial institutions is obscene.

Better 'access' to education is one of those vague policy points people can broadly agree on, but the devil is in the details.

From the left, it usually means cheaper university tuition and subsidies. Since policy tend to work in a sliding scale rather than in an absolutist sense, saying that government should provide no base susidies is incorrect and not good policy. Government should funnel money into lowering cost of education so that students ideally pay only for the cost of their program, rather than things like overhead and all the fixed costs necessary to attract professors and researchers to the university.

Where there is disagreement is the blanket idea that university should be free, or that it is a right. It really isn't and there are smarter ways to direct the high school population to other careers, trades, technical colleges, than to move them all through universities.
 

Barrett2

Member
RSTEIN said:
I personally don't understand the whole student loan uproar. Taking out a loan for any venture involves a great deal of risk. Are people expecting a guaranteed job coming out of school? Why not settle for a lower-paying job until the economy turns around?

They should at least be dischargeable in bankruptcy, IMO. The fact that they are not with almost zero caveat is reflective of the insane lobbying power of corporations in Washington completely screwing individuals.
 

Marleyman

Banned
JzeroT1437 said:
Wouldn't it be awesome if, rather than bailing out the banks that continue to fail every 5-10 years (new crisis projected in the coming months), we just dumped taxpayers' money into student loan debt and forgave some of it?

But that would actually help the general public, and, as we know, that's not what tax money should be used for.

There are some actions being taken in that area but I am sure that nothing will come of it. Government officials used to serve the people; now they serve whoever pays them the most.
 

Marleyman

Banned
blahness said:
This is the type of shit that prevents me from taking the Occupy Wall St crowd seriously. No one forced anyone to take out a loan for college. Yes, it would be grand if everyone got free or reduced college, but to forgive debts is madness. Who is to say who gets their debts paid by the American tax payers? Since I did not go to college and now have a great job, would that mean that I can then go to college for free? Let me tell you, I would LOVE the chance to get my degree. I would like to think I made a thoughtful decision when I decided not to attend college because I knew that in the spot I was in, I would really struggle to pay back that loan. I may be lucky with the jobs I got but thats not to say I didnt work damn hard to get myself into a position to be hired. This is the one point of contention I have with this whole protest. It reeks of a pity party for a group of people who may have made bad decisions.

Just read into it more. It just isn't a bunch of whiners who don't want to pay back their loans.
 
Deku said:
Exploited in what sense. They chose to borrow the money.

Until this year, people who lacked financial resources but whose merit earned them acceptance at college university were required to borrow money from the government, but were made to pay interest on that loan to a private financial institution. If the government did not want the interest (and it was public policy that it did not), then the interest payments graduates were directed to make to financial institutions amounted to (and continue to this day to amount to) nothing but tribute. And one who lacked financial resources had no choice but to utilize this system.

That system thankfully no longer exists although (1) people with extant student loans are still required to pay tribute to financial institutions; and (2) Republicans and financial institutions are trying to reinstate the requirement that people of limited financial resources who seek to obtain a college degree pay tribute to financial institutions in order to do so.
 

Deku

Banned
empty vessel said:
Until this year, people who lacked financial resources but whose merit earned them acceptance at college university were required to borrow money from the government, but were made to pay interest on that loan to a private financial institution. If the government did not want the interest (and it was public policy that it did not), then the interest payments graduates were directed to make to financial institutions amounted to (and continue to this day to amount to) nothing but tribute. And one who lacked financial resources had no choice but to utilize this system.

That system thankfully no longer exists although (1) people with extant student loans are still required to pay tribute to financial institutions; and (2) Republicans and financial institutions are trying to reinstate it.

That's the way your government chose to rope in financial institutions to lend money to students.

But I still don't see how it is exploitation or how it applies to the broader discussion of student debt, a student's responsibility for it, and the limit of what a state is on the hook for for post-secondary training.
 
Deku said:
That's the way your government chose to rope in financial institutions to lend money to students.

Financial institutions did not lend money to students. The loans they afforded were guaranteed by the federal government. Hence, the public was the real entity making the loan and the entity which has assumed all the risk.
 

Deku

Banned
empty vessel said:
Financial institutions do not lend money to students. The loans they afford are guaranteed by the federal government. Hence, the public is the real entity making the loan and which has all the risk.

Financial institutions lend to students because the state has to guarantee those loans ; otherwise said institutions would run in the other direction. Students are terrible risks and there's no conspiracy from the banks to make us into a debtor class on student loans. If anything you can say it's bad policy. But that would make you a Republicna who hates government subsidies.

You can quibble about whether the state should just set up its own lending arm or what not, but that's a minute policy discussion and doesn't address your grievance about the mocking of students who take loans then declare/demand the right to not have to pay it back because of some sense of entitlement to free money from the government.
 

Enron

Banned
Are we still on about student loans?

For those of you with loans, is it federal or private loans squeezing you?

Can't you just forbear your federal loans till whenever? I know I was able to until I got in a position where i could start paying them off - I was able to forbear them in 6-month increments, and I went 4 years without having to start paying.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Deku said:
You can quibble about whether the state should just set up its own lending arm or what not, but that's a minute policy discussion and doesn't address the mocking of students who take loans then declare/demand the right to not have to pay it back because of some sense of entitlement to free money from the government.

You know the same argument can be made for all the banks that demanded bailout money from the government for debt they could not pay back as well.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Just to make it clear, your one vote basically has no chance of doing anything at the polls. It's just one more vote.

That's why money matters and elections can be bought. It is about momentum, and getting people to show to the polls. That's what this sort of movement does. It creates momentum, and it will influence people at the polls.

So the end game is you convince enough people to do a task that means nothing individually, until you amass a sum that can be used to influence outcomes.

edit: The same logic can be applied to "voting with your dollars." At least, so long as you aren't one of those rich dudes.
 
Enron said:
Are we still on about student loans?

For those of you with loans, is it federal or private loans squeezing you?

Can't you just forbear your federal loans till whenever? I know I was able to until I got in a position where i could start paying them off - I was able to forbear them in 6-month increments, and I went 4 years without having to start paying.
There are limits in place for how long you can put loans on forbearance, and they will still continue to accrue interest, so it can be a bit of a band-aid solution. Speaking personally, I'm looking into consolidation + income based repayment for some relief, but I want to make sure I've researched my other options enough.
 

Cat Party

Member
lawblob said:
They should at least be dischargeable in bankruptcy, IMO. The fact that they are not with almost zero caveat is reflective of the insane lobbying power of corporations in Washington completely screwing individuals.
Non-dischargeability is pretty important to the system. Otherwise, who would lend $60,000 to someone with no job or assets? The student loan system has problems. This isn't one of them.

EDIT:

Keru_Shiri said:
There are limits in place for how long you can put loans on forbearance, and they will still continue to accrue interest, so it can be a bit of a band-aid solution. Speaking personally, I'm looking into consolidation + income based repayment for some relief, but I want to make sure I've researched my other options enough.
I consolidated mine a few years back and I save about $100 a month (though the term is longer of course). A few years ago, I needed that relief, but soon I'll be able to pay more and more each month.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Cat Party said:
Non-dischargeability is pretty important to the system. Otherwise, who would lend $60,000 to someone with no job or assets? The student loan system has problems. This isn't one of them.

They're dischargeable in Canada and other places in the world. Seems to work well enough.
 

SUPREME1

Banned
Holy moly, me and few co-workers headed out to see what teh fuss is all about.

One block over, on 7th St and Figueroa, they took over the intersection and sidewalks.



Bullhorns, signs, drums, horns, chants, etc.

Police, paddy wagons, fire engines, helicopters hovering.



Wow, this thing is definitely gaining momentum.

This isn't even the original spot for Los Angeles, which is several blocks over near city hall.




Also, very well organised. People making sure they were not violtaing too many traffic laws so the cops wouldn't have reason to intervene.
 
Deku said:
Financial institutions lend to students because the state has to guarantee those loans ; otherwise said institutions would run in the other direction. Students are terrible risks and there's no conspiracy from the banks to make us into a debtor class on student loans. If anything you can say it's bad policy. But that would make you a Republicna who hates government subsidies.

You can quibble about whether the state should just set up its own lending arm or what not, but that's a minute policy discussion and doesn't address your grievance about the mocking of students who take loans then declare/demand the right to not have to pay it back because of some sense of entitlement to free money from the government.

You have actually elegantly explained the flaws with a system in which higher education is individually financed. You assert that there is no natural market for student loans, at least one with reasonable interest rates, because of the high risk of default. That is true. But if there is no market for this, that is an argument that capitalism does not have a place here. Higher education obviously has personal benefits for the individual who obtains it, but it also has social benefits in the sense that having educated people in our society is good for the rest of us. Thus, higher education can and ought to be considered a public good. In conjunction with the fact that there is not a natural market mechanism by which this good can be effectively produced and allocated, you have made an argument that even capitalists (before they all went insane) would agree calls for the government to play a major role.

In fact, government has played a major role, but the system that was set up was established not to efficiently allocate higher education among the public in a way that best serves the society, but instead to transfer wealth from students and graduates to financial institutions. You say we can "quibble" about whether the government should set up its own lending arm (this is exactly what the new law does, incidentally), but it is actually the most important question. Since government has to be involved, does it create a system that best serves the public interest or does it set up a system rigged to transfer wealth from the financially insecure to financial corporations? Nobody in his or her right mind would support the latter, but that is what we have had and what some are seeking to reinstate (and what most of us with extant loans are still subject to).

Finally, whatever the substantive merit of the issue, the ultimate point is that attacks on people for protesting the inequitable economic conditions imposed on them are widely uninformed. Moreover, boasts of willingly bending over and getting screwed without complaint hardly merit praise.
 
Cat Party said:
EDIT:


I consolidated mine a few years back and I save about $100 a month (though the term is longer of course). A few years ago, I needed that relief, but soon I'll be able to pay more and more each month.
It's looking more and more like the route I'll go, good luck with your repayment, man!
 

Soroc

Member
Keru_Shiri said:
It's looking more and more like the route I'll go, good luck with your repayment, man!


I'm in the home stretch of a 6 year consolidation that buried me for a long time. Its amazing to see the home stretch (about 6 months to go) and will finally be free of debt for the first time since 2001. (Wish I did a consolidation sooner than I did)
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
empty vessel said:
Finally, whatever the substantive merit of the issue, the ultimate point is that attacks on people for protesting the inequitable economic conditions imposed on them are widely uninformed. Moreover, boasts of willingly bending over and getting screwed without complaint hardly merit praise.
You have the right to complain. You have the right to protest.

I think people are just too focused on the loans themselves and not looking at the broader picture. The problem is not the loans. A loan is not a problem if you can repay it. That's been the case for a long time. People have graduated and have had little problem getting a job, and that's been the general case since the recession of the early 90s, with the exception of the IT crunch between 2001-2003.

So here we are today. We had a very severe recession. Jobs have been slow to recover out of this recession. The people who are carrying high student loans and unable to find their desired jobs are unfortunately just the victims of the natural fluctuations inherent our economic system. It's just your turn. If you were born a few years earlier you wouldn't be protesting. The best thing you can do is ride it out and wait, just like people have done since the early 1800s when the economy gets bad. You're not special or a victim. You've just got caught up in the confluence of a broader economic cycle.
 

sh4mike

Member
I see comments in this thread that the banks requested the federal bailout. My understanding is that banks stopped lending after Lehman collapsed, and the fed forced all big banks to take TARP money with the hope that they would lend it out. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do not support free higher-education. Two reasons that come to mind are:
- 1) Majors that do not add sufficient benefit to society to substantiate the cost (e.g. Italian history), and
- 2) Seeing so many college students who didn't get anything out of the experience. Students work harder when they are paying for it. If student loan terms are too high, then people should save up before going to college rather than becoming a slave to debt.

I do support tuition subsidies on degrees that are forecast to benefit society in the near- and long-term, such as math/science/nursing/medicine today. Who makes the decision on which majors qualify for the subsidy is another topic.
 
sh4mike said:
I see comments in this thread that the banks requested the federal bailout. My understanding is that banks stopped lending after Lehman collapsed, and the fed forced all big banks to take TARP money with the hope that they would lend it out. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do not support free higher-education. Two reasons that come to mind are:
- 1) Majors that do not add sufficient benefit to society to substantiate the cost (e.g. Italian history), and
- 2) Seeing so many college students who didn't get anything out of the experience. Students work harder when they are paying for it. If student loan terms are too high, then people should save up before going to college rather than becoming a slave to debt.

I do support tuition subsidies on degrees that are forecast to benefit society in the near- and long-term, such as math/science/nursing/medicine today. Who makes the decision on which majors qualify for the subsidy is another topic.

This is an idiotic side to the argument. I majored in English, then got my master's in Sociolinguistics and Shakespearian studies, and I now work for Oxford University Press as a Production Editor, which vaguely fits in with my studies. If I hadn't gotten my degree, I wouldn't have participated in the internships I did, gotten the experience necessary for my career, or be where I am today. Higher Education is more than whatever major you enter into--anyone who says so treated their college education as a fucking vo-tech school.
 

Sumebody

Neo Member
RSTEIN said:
So here we are today. We had a very severe recession. Jobs have been slow to recover out of this recession. The people who are carrying high student loans and unable to find their desired jobs are unfortunately just the victims of the natural fluctuations inherent our economic system. It's just your turn. If you were born a few years earlier you wouldn't be protesting. The best thing you can do is ride it out and wait, just like people have done since the early 1800s when the economy gets bad. You're not special or a victim. You've just got caught up in the confluence of a broader economic cycle.

Why do you see a "turn" to be necessary? (Just curious)

If there are admittedly obvious flaws in the system, and we have the chance to have actual reform(or revolution, I dare say?), why not advocate for change that'll improve the lives of fellow citizens? How can you tell the people who are out there, old that already had their turn?
 

Ripclawe

Banned
empty vessel said:
So you are saying it is in society's interest for us all to struggle instead of work together and reform the system to make it more equitable for us?

Suit yourself, but I think the position that we should suffer instead of make things better is completely silly. If I lived by that philosophy, I'd walk around with fifty extra pounds in a backpack just to make my life more difficult.

Wait.. at what point are people being forced to go to college and/or take out a loan? Its a loan, you have to pay it back. Its in society's best interest not to have a segment of its population thinking that everyone else who is doing better than them owes them anything.
 
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