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[Karma Kramer]

Why do you insist this is about immigrants? Because you did a semester of a clinic at Rutgers or some shit so you can get on your high horse?

It's not about immigrants specifically, it's about whether you care about businesses that are disrupted by protest, immigrant-run or otherwise. You don't. You didn't complain about all the people affected by disruption in Egypt or Libya. You complain about this guy, however, because you can use him to take shots at the protesters you despise so much.

Thats pretty clear dude, he said "this nonsense" I believe

Really, this whole protest comes down to accountability and whether or not you think it is legitimate to regulate financial systems so we don't face more economic crisis. Look at the period after the great depression until the 1980s when deregulation began. Notice how after that is when income inequality began and economic crisis's became frequent.

Getting into arguments about financial responsibility of your loan payments is beside the point when the real threat to financial stability is irresponsible behavior and corruption by our government and financial institutions.

 

[SolKane]

I'm going to get involved with this movement. I'm tired of emailing and writing my representatives and never receiving a reply. Meanwhile the Obama Administration and everyone else in DC sits in the bubble of our political system oblivious to the reality that no matter what they do they cannot institute the changes that need to be made to turn the economy around. Our political system is corrupt and broken, systemic broad-ranging reform is needed. It is long past clear to me that these reforms will never make it through the political process as it stands today. A strong push from the people is necessary to make it happen. I ask everyone here this: If not now then when?

Post needs to be quoted more.

 

[AndyD]

There's a gathering here in Nashville in a bit. Going to walk down and see what's going on.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Thats pretty clear dude, he said "this nonsense" I believe

Comparing this to the situation in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, and other areas in the Middle East is taking a stand for basically political rights and freedoms, not because they took out too much for school loans without a thought for repaying them.

 

[Divvy]

Comparing this to the situation in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, and other areas in the Middle East is taking a stand for basically political rights and freedoms, not because they took out too much for school loans without a thought for repaying them.

You know, the UN charter of human rights lists:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Comparing this to the situation in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, and other areas in the Middle East is taking a stand for basically political rights and freedoms, not because they took out too much for school loans without a thought for repaying them.

I didn't compare them, but I don't think these protests are "nonsense"

 

[Dude Abides]

I never went to Rutgers or did a clinic, this was doing actual work to make money in Grad School. So I can speak from real world experience.

Well I won asylum for a Tibetan monk, so I guess I can clamber up on the high horse with you and now the competition about who's a better person can be over.

do care, because the situations and what people where trying to achieve in Egypt and Libya were miles and miles apart from this. That was for basic political freedom.

Exactly. You care only because you like one protest and dislike the other. It has nothing to do with whether business is disrupted or people are hurt. Was that really so hard to admit?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Comparing this to the situation in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, and other areas in the Middle East is taking a stand for basically political rights and freedoms, not because they took out too much for school loans without a thought for repaying them.

We've inferred a mighty bit from that one picture.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I didn't compare them, but I don't think these protests are "nonsense"

It's nonsense by comparison to the goals and struggles.

You know, the UN charter of human rights lists:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Yeah, and people have those in the US. Social Security, Medicare, Medicad, Food Stamps, Unemployment benefits, etc.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Yeah, and people have those in the US. Social Security, Medicare, Medicad, Food Stamps, Unemployment benefits, etc.

All of which our politicians are just itching to chop up in the name of austerity.

 

[Karma Kramer]

It's nonsense by comparison to the goals and struggles.



Yeah, and people have those in the US. Social Security, Medicare, Medicad, Food Stamps, Unemployment benefits, etc.

How is the cause of the GLOBAL economic crisis remotely nonsense. Your attitude is sickening. "I was able to pull through and do fine during the economic crisis. Egypt faced far greater struggles... how can people even live with themselves complaining about people who caused GLOBAL economic crisis's when they can vote, watch movies, get food stamps etc. What a bunch of hippies"

 

[travisbickle]

Except I pay it.

Pay what? A tiny percentage of it over 20 years? If everything, touch wood, goes to plan.

It's unbelievable you have the audacity to complain about others' debts when you are in the same position.

For anyone who is not in debt, like myself, you are part of the problem. You took out a loan for 250,000 dollars without knowing how you would pay it back.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Well I won asylum for a Tibetan monk, so I guess I can clamber up on the high horse with you and now the competition about who's a better person can be over.

Where did I say better person? I was talking about experience. You seem to be the one on the defensive now. I said I could appreciate and understand the situations immigrants face when them become or are trying to become citizens in this country, when you suggested I lacked it in some way.

Exactly. You care only because you like one protest and dislike the other.

No, I don't. I don't view the situations as even comparable.

If either of those groups also had no real clear demands or goals and just wanted to cause disruption. I'd criticize them too, but that wasn't the case.

 

[marrec]

We've inferred a mighty bit from that one picture.

I think we've utter destroyed that picture as a representation of protest, only a representation of entitlement.

I agree with many things the OWS movement stands for, but that picture is lamentable.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Let's just ignore the mistakes of the past and assume nothing like that will ever happen again.

Right Manos?

 

[Dude Abides]

Where did I say better person? I was talking about experience. You seem to be the one on the defensive now. I said I could appreciate and understand the situations immigrants face when them become or are trying to become citizens in this country, when you suggested I lacked it in some way.

I said your concern was feigned based on the things you have written on this very forum. You decided to invoke your personal life as if it was somehow relevant. Someone genuinely concerned about the plight of a business owner whose business is disrupted by social upheaval wouldn't ignore the issue in Egypt (where it was much more disruptive) while screeching about it in America.

No, I don't. I don't view the situations as even comparable.

If either of those groups also had no real clear demands or goals and just wanted to cause disruption. I'd criticize them too, but that wasn't the case.

Right. Adversely affected businessmen are just collateral damage in Egypt, but an unbearable tragedy in America. Not a single fuck is sincerely given about the businessmen themselves, it's just a proxy for you to express your hate for the protest.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Pay what? A tiny percentage of it over 20 years? If everything, touch wood, goes to plan.

It's unbelievable you have the audacity to complain about others' debts when you are in the same position.

For anyone who is not in debt, like myself, you are part of the problem. You took out a loan for 250,000 dollars without knowing how you would pay it back.

Unlike them I willingly understood the situation, choose it of my own free will and I'm paying it back with the money earned from my job. That is the what is supposed to happen with a school loan.

"Touch on wood" are you even from the United States? I've seen you spell check as cheque the British way too.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I think we've utter destroyed that picture as a representation of protest, only a representation of entitlement.

I agree with many things the OWS movement stands for, but that picture is lamentable.

I see what you're saying, but for the record I don't think the story to take away from that picture is that she expects loan forgiveness or anything like that, but rather decent enough job opportunities to make taking out a loan for college (which for many youngins' is all but necessary) worth it.

 

[Wazzim]

No, I don't. I don't view the situations as even comparable.

They both started because of economical problems..

In Tunisia, but it in every other country Political greatly overshadowed economic.

Egypt too (rising cost of bread because of wildfires in Russia), you can at least compare them to those, no?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I said your concern was feigned based on the things you have written on this very forum. You decided to invoke your personal life as if it was somehow relevant.

It was relevant because it's invalidated a lot of your claims of my concern being feigned.

Right. Adversely affected businessmen are just collateral damage in Egypt, but an unbearable tragedy in America. Not a single fuck is sincerely given about the businessmen themselves, it's just a proxy for you to express your hate for the protest.

Except it's not, no matter how much you say that you can't change what is the truth. I'm sorry you can't come to terms with that.

They both started because of economical problems..

In Tunisia, but it in every other country Political greatly overshadowed economic.

 

[Allard]

There's a lot of social pressure to smoke weed too.

Like parents? Wow I wish I had the parents you must have had that put pressure on you to smoke weed! Social Pressure for College goes far beyond just friends, I had parents, teachers, relatives and family friends that all seem to demand I go to college right out of high school and worked to make sure through Junior year I had it all setup. Thankfully I had understanding parents who let me go to a school that didn't have 30k+ a year tuition but there are lots of parents who will put that on a kid, at least pressure wise.

 

[teepo]

i'm still confused exactly on what this protest is about. on one side it's anti-market, the other is about the right to education and others wanting someone other than themselves to bear the weight of their lousy decisions. the list can go on, but god damn if wall street isn't the greatest focal point for a protest. the fact they can get congregate so many diversified opinions is a testament to the strength of this movement.

i won't ever be participating but it's fun to watch/study.

 

[marrec]

I see what you're saying, but for the record I don't think the story to take away from that picture is that she expects loan forgiveness or anything like that, but rather decent enough job opportunities to make taking out a loan for college (which for many youngins' is all but necessary) worth it.

Which goes back to my original point of a sharper message from the protesters, I'm not trying to hold that rather unfortunate woman accountable for the entire movement, but I don't think signs or pictures like that should be used. Again, what we should be talking about is Corruption in Government and Wall Street, and from there we can dicuss a plan for the long term unemployed. Until we can buy our Politicians back from Wall Street, we're screwed.

 

[Divvy]

I think we've utter destroyed that picture as a representation of protest, only a representation of entitlement.

I agree with many things the OWS movement stands for, but that picture is lamentable.

How do you feel about bankruptcy in relation to student debt?

Why is it that in America, every single other form of debt can be wiped out by bankruptcy except for student loan debt? Why are young people punished exclusively in this regard?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Which goes back to my original point of a sharper message from the protesters, I'm not trying to hold that rather unfortunate woman accountable for the entire movement, but I don't think signs or pictures like that should be used. Again, what we should be talking about is Corruption in Government and Wall Street, and from there we can dicuss a plan for the long term unemployed. Until we can buy our Politicians back from Wall Street, we're screwed.

Agreed.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

How do you feel about bankruptcy in relation to student debt?

Why is it that in America, every single other form of debt can be wiped out by bankruptcy except for student loan debt? Why are young people punished exclusively in this regard?

Because people used to abuse the discharging of student loans in bankruptcy a lot. Some people felt (I have no clue why) that declaring bankruptcy as a way to quickie cancel out student loans was a good idea and had more benefits than costs.

 

[water_wendi]

Because people used to abuse the discharging of student loans in bankruptcy a lot. Some people felt (I have no clue why) that declaring bankruptcy as a way to quickie cancel out student loans was a good idea and had more benefits than costs.

i thought that was a miniscule number.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

i thought that was a miniscule number.

It was enough for creditors to bother lobbying on the issue and put money into it.

That said there are movements to restore it.

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...ss-proposes-relief-for-student-loan-borrowers
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.2028:

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Why won't you guys just fucking listen.

 

[timetokill]

How do you feel about bankruptcy in relation to student debt?

Why is it that in America, every single other form of debt can be wiped out by bankruptcy except for student loan debt? Why are young people punished exclusively in this regard?

Because:
- young people don't vote
- universities are happy to be able to charge crazy amounts of money and know that students can always get it from the lenders
- the students are lied to constantly that they'll be able to get a $80k+ job right out of school, so they think it's worth it
- the lenders get an entire generation of debt slaves
- the politicians get tons of money and support from the guys with money, and the students aren't voting anyway, so fuck 'em

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Because:
- young people don't vote
- universities are happy to be able to charge crazy amounts of money and know that students can always get it from the lenders
- the students are lied to constantly that they'll be able to get a $80k+ job right out of school, so they think it's worth it
- the lenders get an entire generation of debt slaves
- the politicians get tons of money and support from the guys with money, and the students aren't voting anyway, so fuck 'em

Pretty much this. The current student loan system is a great feedback loop for both lenders and universities.

 

[Marleyman]

Then if it came after they should be smart enough to decide if having a kid, buying an expensive car, or whatever is the smart decision to make when sitting on that kind of debt. For instance I did not think it was a good idea to go buy a house when I had those loans payments and that kind of salary so I waited until I was making over $70,000 and married to buy a house. As for jobs there are a lot of trades out there that make decent money without the debt of college.

Whoa - I thought you were fresh out of college...anyway, let's say the kid thing isn't well planned out, crazy I know. Also, not everything fits together perfectly like you did it, even if you plan it out. As for the trades you speak of, they are out there and you can make money doing it. Doesn't discount the fact that earning a degree and struggling to find work is a reality these days.

So that absolves people of any kind of decision making using common sense? Also it is not like school is a not go or pay 30 grand a year kind of affair, there are a lot of cheaper options if people want to go that route.

It doesn't absolve people of decision making but it is indoctrinated that this is the way to go to succeed in life. There are cheaper alternatives but they don't carry the credence that a 4 year degree program does.

If it causes you to not afford your student loans that is the exact definition of bad financial decisions! As for my age I am 28, but that should have no impact on this discussion.

This started between us because I assumed you were fresh out of college and making $500 a month payments like it was no big deal. Are you currently still making these payments?

 

[Divvy]

Because people used to abuse the discharging of student loans in bankruptcy a lot. Some people felt (I have no clue why) that declaring bankruptcy as a way to quickie cancel out student loans was a good idea and had more benefits than costs.

Can you explain why? I'm trying to look up reasons but there aren't many articles discussing that.

 

[dave is ok]

It was enough for creditors to bother lobbying on the issue and put money into it.

If creditors had complete say in the matter, Chapter 7 bankruptcy wouldn't exist

 

[Dude Abides]

It was relevant because it's invalidated a lot of your claims of my concern being feigned.

No it didn't. Your words speak for themselves. You care about poor businessmen in one context, and don't in another, solely for political reasons.

Except it's not, no matter how much you say that you can't change what is the truth. I'm sorry you can't come to terms with that.

I'm sorry you can't understand simple logic. When the only reason you care about someone adversely affected by a protest is because you don't like the protest itself, it means the person is nothing more than a rhetorical device to you. It makes your concern hypocritical.

 

[teepo]

How do you feel about bankruptcy in relation to student debt?

Why is it that in America, every single other form of debt can be wiped out by bankruptcy except for student loan debt? Why are young people punished exclusively in this regard?

you can thank our parents for using student loans to go on extended vacations or using it to pay a mortgage. it was kind of ridiculous how easy it was to get a student loan back then and not ever attend a class in your life, which lead to a large percentage of borrowers exploiting the system. good luck doing that now. the second you have lower than a c average, the warning letters will start piling up.

 

[Deku]

Because:
- young people don't vote
- universities are happy to be able to charge crazy amounts of money and know that students can always get it from the lenders
- the students are lied to constantly that they'll be able to get a $80k+ job right out of school, so they think it's worth it
- the lenders get an entire generation of debt slaves
- the politicians get tons of money and support from the guys with money, and the students aren't voting anyway, so fuck 'em

I'm not aware of ever hearing that 80k jobs were a shoe in. When I was in my senior year in high school, it was right at the end of the internet bubble so everyone was going into web design and all that jazz while you have a core group doing arts or sciences.

The solution is to provide more choices for secondary education rather than running the college/university gauntlet. Especially for males.

As for debt slaves, it sounds appealing, but governments have to get involved in student loans because left to the market, the risk would be too much for lenders to lend. Trust me, most banks don't want to lend to students either. There's no conspiracy theory/ulterior motives.

The debt slave argument would be more plausible with the CC debt angle. Students with ridiculous loans get little sympathy for good reason, because there's no particular injustice here.

 

[SolKane]

It was enough for creditors to bother lobbying on the issue and put money into it.

Anything would be enough for creditors, given their self-interest in ensuring student loans are paid.

 

[Evil Benius]

Whoa - I thought you were fresh out of college...anyway, let's say the kid thing isn't well planned out, crazy I know. Also, not everything fits together perfectly like you did it, even if you plan it out. As for the trades you speak of, they are out there and you can make money doing it. Doesn't discount the fact that earning a degree and struggling to find work is a reality these days.



It doesn't absolve people of decision making but it is indoctrinated that this is the way to go to succeed in life. There are cheaper alternatives but they don't carry the credence that a 4 year degree program does.



This started between us because I assumed you were fresh out of college and making $500 a month payments like it was no big deal. Are you currently still making these payments?

My point about trades was that it was an option compared to going into debt getting a degree that might not be the best career choice. There are still jobs out there for fresh graduates, but they are more selective about what degrees they want.

Also I am talking about cheaper four year degrees, not missing college completely. I went to a well known private school in Philadelphia, any other state school in Pennsylvania would be a lot cheaper and still most likely have job opportunities.

Also my post was referring to making $500 a month payments fresh out of school. That was when I was making $40,000 a year and still getting by just fine. Yes I am still making those payments, but I have also moved up salary wise while also taking on more expenses like putting 8% of my salary into a 401k, putting $400 a month into an IRA, putting $800 a month into savings, paying a $1,400 mortgage, and paying a $300 car payment.

Anyway this discussion has been going on far too long and is really getting off point. Most of the thread has moved on so I really do not want to keep dragging us back.

 

[Marleyman]

My point about trades was that it was an option compared to going into debt getting a degree that might not be the best career choice. There are still jobs out there for fresh graduates, but they are more selective about what degrees they want.

Well yeah, that makes sense.

Also I am talking about cheaper four year degrees, not missing college completely. I went to a well known private school in Philadelphia, any other state school in Pennsylvania would be a lot cheaper and still most likely have job opportunities.

It would be cheaper but no that cheap.

Also my post was referring to making $500 a month payments fresh out of school. That was when I was making $40,000 a year and still getting by just fine. Yes I am still making those payments, but I have also moved up salary wise while also taking on more expenses like putting 8% of my salary into a 401k, putting $400 a month into an IRA, putting $800 a month into savings, paying a $1,400 mortgage, and paying a $300 car payment.

Right, I took it that you currently were fresh out of college and complaining. Once you move up salary wise it becomes feasible.

Anyway this discussion has been going on far too long and is really getting off point. Most of the thread has moved on so I really do not want to keep dragging us back.

Yeah, we are done here.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Who the fuck think they can automatically get an 80K+ job right out of school? Even the most cursory glance at median income of graduates at the top schools would tell you it's complete and utter bullshit.

 

[teepo]

Who the fuck think they can automatically get an 80K+ job right out of school? Even the most cursory glance at median income of graduates at the top schools would tell you it's complete and utter bullshit.

dreamers

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Can you explain why? I'm trying to look up reasons but there aren't many articles discussing that.

I meant to clarify that I don't totally agree with the logic, but that was the reasoning.

This is a bit old, but it should explain why a little about it. I will say I can't imagine why declaring bankruptcy would be seen as a quick fix and a good idea for anyone in the long term. I should say that lots of shitty bankruptcy lawyers used to like making claims that you could dump everything in Bankruptcy, even after the rule change, with no problems.

www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-ed-w...acing-student-loan-borrowers-bankruptcy-11888

 

[AndyD]

Nashville gathering:

What I did not get is why they were chanting stop paying your bills.

 

[Ikael]

I'm going to get involved with this movement. I'm tired of emailing and writing my representatives and never receiving a reply. Meanwhile the Obama Administration and everyone else in DC sits in the bubble of our political system oblivious to the reality that no matter what they do they cannot institute the changes that need to be made to turn the economy around. Our political system is corrupt and broken, systemic broad-ranging reform is needed. It is long past clear to me that these reforms will never make it through the political process as it stands today. A strong push from the people is necessary to make it happen. I ask everyone here this: If not now then when?

This is precisely why I am an activist at Spain's 15-M movement, even if I dislike its whole "leftist pie in the sky" attidude. Professional politicians have created a system hermetical to citizen participation and reform, only interested in mantaining the statu quo.

So you go, Americans! We will stage a huge demostration on October the 15th here in Spain, we intend to coordinate it with you Occupy Wall Street guys, see you on the streets!

 

[The Albatross]

Much different demographic. The student loan issue is not driven by for-profits but their tactics are aimed at a demographic that are easy prey.

Yeah, I think that we can both agree that for-profit colleges are sharks, take advantage of people, and aren't providing good services for the cost (or any cost). I am strongly against most for profits.

But, I think that they're largely irrelevant to the issue of college loan debt, there just aren't enough of the schools and they don't represent a large enough pool of students to make any real impact on the industry at large.. You had said that you completely disagree with the idea that the people in most photos, stories, and so on, complaining about college loan debt are likely from non-profit colleges.

I changed to say "99+%" to less than that, although I'd still probably say it's 90%+ of the people complaining about college loan debt in these stories are non-profit students. Would you still completely disagree with that?

... although I don't really know what we're disagreeing on, on this issue either way

 

[Divvy]

I meant to clarify that I don't totally agree with the logic, but that was the reasoning.

This is a bit old, but it should explain why a little about it. I will say I can't imagine why declaring bankruptcy would be seen as a quick fix and a good idea for anyone in the long term. I should say that lots of shitty bankruptcy lawyers used to like making claims that you could dump everything in Bankruptcy, even after the rule change, with no problems.

www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-ed-w...acing-student-loan-borrowers-bankruptcy-11888

Thanks. I always viewed bankruptcy as a last resort with many consequences. It's just strange to see that this group, who are probably the least able to get out of dire financial situations, not really being offered an avenue that other indebted people have available.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Thanks. I always viewed bankruptcy as a last resort with many consequences.

Sure thing. I take the same view myself.

 

[SolKane]

I'm not aware of ever hearing that 80k jobs were a shoe in. When I was in my senior year in high school, it was right at the end of the internet bubble so everyone was going into web design and all that jazz while you have a core group doing arts or sciences.

The solution is to provide more choices for secondary education rather than running the college/university gauntlet. Especially for males.

As for debt slaves, it sounds appealing, but governments have to get involved in student loans because left to the market, the risk would be too much for lenders to lend. Trust me, most banks don't want to lend to students either. There's no conspiracy theory/ulterior motives.

The debt slave argument would be more plausible with the CC debt angle. Students with ridiculous loans get little sympathy for good reason, because there's no particular injustice here.

I don't see why you would have any more sympathy for people with CC debt than student loan debt, please explain.

 

[The Albatross]

You know, the UN charter of human rights lists:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Being completely seriously, everybody has that right in the United States. The word that some may seem to be hung up on is the word "Adequate." What many in this movement are calling for is not for "adequate levels of food, clothing, housing, and medical care," or "adequate unemployment benefits" or "sickness benefits" in old age, but rather, exceptional levels of care, food, clothing, and so on. Further, the UN Charter lists "circumstances beyond his control." We do this a lot when we start movements, we make the mistake of thinking that everything is beyond our control and that we are completely helpless.

Unemployment benefit enrollment is the highest in decades, over 10% in most states. More people are on food stamps than have been for decades. More people are enrolling in government assistance and seeking medicare than anytime in the last 20 years.

But let's not, for a second, pretend that those programs don't exist and that we spoiled X-Box playing dot-commers have it anywhere nearly as bad as many groups in Libya, Syria, and the others in that post you were quoting.