As of tax year 2008, you break into the top 1% when your AGI exceeds $380,354.Chichikov said:
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,00.html
Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!
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http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,00.html
empty vessel
Member
EricM85 said:
The 'A' in AGI stands for "adjusted."
They were bailed out, only to save the system from going over a waterfall. They restored themselves, paid back the money PLUS billions more.Azih said:
You are 100% right about the military complex. That's doing just fine. Oil companies are not evil. They're benefiting from high oil prices. No conspiracy theory there. Their time will come when they get displaced by new technology.
RSTEIN said:
The part about paying billions back is false. They made a ton of money on the bailouts by buying up treasury bonds, which pay a higher return than the interest rate of tarp.
But even if the bailout was necessary, we could've easily nationalized one or two failing banks similar to the GM takeover.
The oil companies:
- Keep prices high through cartel collusion, and artificially limiting refining capacity.
- Lobby heavily against the "new technology" you claim will replace them.
- Use their political influence to block lawsuits against rampant environmental violations
- Cut corners on rig construction leading to events like this:
They were the ones who were in charge of the system and they were the ones who grabbed more power for themselves by lobbying for a crazy amount of deregulation of the financial sector and they were the ones who used that unnatural increase power and pushed the system over the waterfall with their greed. That much we both agree on I think. Here's my question to you. Why are the people in charge of the banks when all of this shit happened STILL IN CHARGE OF THE BANKS?RSTEIN said:
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Because they think it'd fix things by making the market more free.Jenga said:
Really, it'd just make the economy go off the rails.
Also RSTEIN you didn't address my points about how the ruling elite are impacting on my rights and freedoms. The rich get richer and then use their influence over political parties to lower their taxes forcing services into the private sector which promptly raises prices to what the rich are willing to pay. Essential services become more and more restricted to the rich. You can see this to a crazy degree in the States and it's starting to happen in Canada as well. Post Secondary eduction is getting too fucking expensive. Should only rich kids go to university?
HAL_Laboratory
Member
Do you have any proof of this or are you just talking out of your ass?BobsRevenge said:
empty vessel
Member
unomas said:
You can thank Alan Greenspan, a Libertarian, for that.
Citizens do control corporations. Citizens make the laws that corporations have to follow. Citizens are speaking now in real time. The laws, regulations, and guidelines that corporations have to follow are changing. They have changed in massive ways since the financial crisis. Thanks to citizens.empty vessel said:
You're obviously wrapped up in some sort of fantasy world where you see some sort of evil rich corporation following you around trying to ruin your life. It is clear that nothing I say will bring you back to reality. A reality where your fellow citizens are fighting for what they believe in. A reality where change does happen-and has been happening-since the industrial revolution began.empty vessel said:
Corporations have done horrible things over the years. Lobbyists have tried to keep smoking consequences hidden, keep guns on the streets (only really succeeding in the US), get asbestos claims thrown out, keep financial regulations non-existent, enforce racial segregation, squeeze the women's rights movement. Etc. Etc.
But they always lose. Justice prevails. Show me how evil corporations have conquered us poor citizens. Please, point me to an example where your hands have been held behind your back by some evil rich Illuminati type person. With the exception of the military complex, which I agree rages on strongly today, please provide evidence of a current, grand plan being undertaken by a corporation to undermine our democracy.
empty vessel said:
lol, and you called ME arrogant? Wow. I'm a citizen of the world, man. Widen your perspective a bit.
SouthernDragon
Member
unomas said:
Prior to the existence of the Federal Reserve, the cycle of boom and bust in the United States was significantly more severe.
Dude Abides
Banned
Marleyman said:
Ron Paul's about 200 years too late on this one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCulloch_v._Maryland
Now that the constitutional objection is dealt with, what's the substantive policy objection to the Federal Reserve? Inflation isn't particularly high, so that aspect of Paul's statement is not to be taken seriously.
ConfusingJazz
Member
unomas said:
Terribly.
Not really, I think his point was that the Fed acted incompetent when Alan Greenspan, someone who wanted the Fed to have less power, was in charge and was fine before that.unomas said:
The problem seems to lie with who was in charge of the Fed at the time and not the institution of the Fed itself.
Dude Abides
Banned
unomas said:
Maybe you missed what I posted above, but some guys did read the constitution. Fed's ok.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCulloch_v._Maryland
But what keeps them in power is a finite resource. They're fighting against a resource that is infinite. They will lose this battle.Marleyman said:
The rich don't keep taxes on themselves low. True, they are low now. But this is temporary. Right now citizens are reacting to Obama's call to arms and are calling their representatives right now to have taxes raised on the wealthy. The majority of REPUBLICANS are in favour of higher tax rates. The current tax rates are not sustainable. They're only going to go higher.Azih said:
Unlike the bank bail out, GM lost money for the taxpayers.theBishop said:
empty vessel
Member
RSTEIN said:
You are ignorant. The US Supreme Court has ruled that citizens cannot control corporations. It's little wonder you are bewildered as to why people are up in arms when you have knowledge whatsoever about the United States and its institutions.
RSTEIN said:
* One caveat to note about the numbers in these charts is that the top fifth data include the top 1% data (because the top 1% is part of the top 20%). So almost all of the "gains" of the top 20% are actually just reflecting the gains of the top 1%. Most of the top 20% has also lost ground. It would be more informative if instead of the top 1% and the top 20% it showed the top 1% and the next 19%. Alas, it doesn't.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-205.pdf
Note: the top 1% of income earners are mostly comprised of business executives of corporations.
RSTEIN said:
What the fuck are you talking about a "grand plan" for? Who the fuck is saying this is caused by "some evil rich Illuminati type person"? Quit erecting straw men and deal with the arguments made.
RSTEIN said:
No, I don't call you arrogant; I call you ignorant, which you have now taken to full on reveling in.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Just because the Fed has been doing a shitty job, it doesn't mean it'd be worse without it. It keeps the economy afloat by injecting money where it's needed, helping to adjust interest rates to increase demand, and creating inflation to grow the economy.unomas said:
The real problem with the Fed is it has been run by Rand followers recently. Alan Greenspan probably gets a boner when Ron Paul speaks about economics. The deregulation of the financial industry led to market volatility that created this mess.
I mean, look at Europe. A big reason they are having so much trouble with their currency is that they don't have a central bank that can throw weight around like the Fed to help fix their shit.
Do the rich support political parties calling for lower taxes on the rich? Yes. Does the media, owned by the rich, give a lot of airtime to experts calling for lower taxes? Yes. Hell by the nature of the political system it's the rich who get freaking elected and control the political discourse.RSTEIN said:
... It's been going on for DECADES.
Edit: Don't corps and companies, owned by the rich, threaten to shut down factories and leave town if their taxes are raised or their taxpayer subsidies are taken away forcing governments to keep taxes low? Fuck Yes.
Edit 2: The amount of money required to win a political campaign has shot up, leaving all political candidates at the mercy of those who control the purse strings which is, yup you guessed it, the rich. Especially since the unions faded.
akira28 said:
Who exactly are 'they' in this case? Sub in anarchist for racist, unions for koch, and angry for.. well angry stays the same I suppose. This will go back and forth all day long. How many kooks show up to rallies? Tea Party or OWS/Day of Rage, doesnt matter. If we're going to paint both groups by the lowest elements found there they'll just butt heads and nothing will be done because the majority will be turned off by it.
Saying bunch of racists or dirty hippies... (but not ALL of them, some are ok maybe)... koch brothers union thugs and on we go.
As for Obama he's made what Bush started even worse. I dont buy into the noble leader thwarted by those darn republicans bit at all. Meanwhile people will get hung up on that and corporations and banks being in bed with big government will soldier on.
I'm not ignorant. I'm living in the real world. A world where laws are drafted by politicians who are elected, and in some cases can be recalled, by the citizens they represent. Democracy is not unique to the United States. Democracies exist all over the world! And they all work the same. People are in charge.empty vessel said:
You said my ego is over-inflated. That's pretty much the same as calling me arrogant.empty vessel said:
You're the one who has resorted to name calling. I'm asking for you to paint me a clear picture of the world you speak of. You haven't done that. You haven't addressed any of my questions or points head on. You can't provide me with specific examples of how the world is controlled by an elite ruling class.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
No doubt, but they don't have as much direct control as the Fed does, and not as much power. It is more subject to political interference and has more constraints due to having to deal with/between sovereign nations. They've mainly just been preaching/forcing austerity, which is in many ways counter-productive (decreasing expenditure is necessary, but it needs to be counter-balanced) and ignores some of the basic issues.Slavik81 said:
empty vessel
Member
RSTEIN said:
One problem is that--as I've repeatedly informed you and you've repeatedly ignored--the US is no longer, in fact, a democracy. It is a place in which government agencies--corporations--have rights as against its citizens. One of those rights is the right to influence elections.
People are not in charge in the US, because of corporate influence. So, clearly, you understand the problem now.
RSTEIN said:
That you are ignorant is not name-calling, it's an accurate empirical observation. You are very clearly trolling now as you have no interest at all in learning anything whatsoever about the world as it exists. And you clearly never did. That your mind is too small to comprehend how concentrated economic power can organize itself politically and exert influence over government may be my problem, but it is not my fault. Your demand that I write a book on the subject for you is patently absurd. Not to mention that it would be a waste of my time as many have already been written, to which you have already been referred.
Here's a game plan for the 99%:
2012 elections: Vote Republicans out of office en masse.
But wait, aren't both parties complicit? Aren't we non-partisan? Yes, to a degree, but let's get rid of the party that was willing to tank the global economy to protect tax breaks for the 1% first. We'll get to the Democrats soon enough. This is phase 1.
2014 midterms: Run primary opponents against corrupt Democrats. Basically anyone who won't promise to vote for campaign-finance reform and lobbyist reform. We can let in some sane Republicans at this point.
2016 elections: Hopefully the Republican party has re-branded itself in the Eisenhower image, and we can have sane, responsible elections again. At this point, the national debate isn't about whether the uninsured should be allowed to die, but whether the private/public funding split for our universal healthcare system should be 20/80 or 30/70.
Profit!
2012 elections: Vote Republicans out of office en masse.
But wait, aren't both parties complicit? Aren't we non-partisan? Yes, to a degree, but let's get rid of the party that was willing to tank the global economy to protect tax breaks for the 1% first. We'll get to the Democrats soon enough. This is phase 1.
2014 midterms: Run primary opponents against corrupt Democrats. Basically anyone who won't promise to vote for campaign-finance reform and lobbyist reform. We can let in some sane Republicans at this point.
2016 elections: Hopefully the Republican party has re-branded itself in the Eisenhower image, and we can have sane, responsible elections again. At this point, the national debate isn't about whether the uninsured should be allowed to die, but whether the private/public funding split for our universal healthcare system should be 20/80 or 30/70.
Profit!
RSTEIN said:
Do you really think that the people want lower taxes for the wealthy and for corporate dollars to have even more influence in politics or for the people in Wall Street who set this recession into motion to go unpunished? Then why is it that all these things have come to pass over the last several years, independent of citizens' wishes or how they vote?
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Puddles said:
This.
RSTEIN said:
A world in which...
the rich support political parties calling for lower taxes on the rich. .
the media, owned by the rich, give a lot of airtime to experts calling for lower taxes.
By the nature of the political system it's the rich who get freaking elected and control the political discourse.
corps and companies, owned by the rich, threaten to shut down factories and leave town if their taxes are raised or their taxpayer subsidies are taken away forcing governments to keep taxes low. Just look at Zabka's example!
The amount of money required to win a political campaign has shot up, leaving all political candidates at the mercy of those who control the purse strings which is, yup you guessed it, the rich. Especially since the unions faded.
Maybe you're right, after all. Maybe I'm blind. Let me show you the world I live in. Please tell me how I'm misguided.empty vessel said:
I get up. Have coffee, eat toast. Say hello to my wife. Take my son and my dog out for a stroll. Go to work. Earn a living. Come home, eat dinner, play some Gears of War. Read a book, do some more work. Go to bed. Along the way I spend less than I earn, put some money away for retirement, and therefore keep myself ahead of 99% of the population. Again, that's not a goal, just a byproduct of our system. Just math.
At any point during my day I have the opportunity to do almost anything I want to. I can drop everything and pursue a Masters degree. I can stop working and go on welfare. I can change jobs. I can be a politician. I can divorce my wife and marry a man. I can join the military. I can go go Occupy Wall St. I can go to Starbucks and enjoy a coffee. I can protest against Starbucks. I can explore 99% of the world. Or I can stay at home not have to interact the world. I am free. I am not controlled by a corporation. I am not controlled by a corporate class.
How is your day different?
I'm just asking that you articulate yourself a bit better. Give me something real to cling on to.empty vessel said:
timetokill
Banned
Puddles said:
So in 2012 we get rid of all Republicans, and then in 2014 we pretend to get rid of all Democrats? Why not just do 'em all at once and vote out all incumbents? Primarying the Democrats isn't going to be enough.
timetokill said:
Getting to a situation where you can get a third party to win by 2012 is impossible. You can however get the worst of the worst out by voting Dem in 2012. Then by 2014 do what the Tea Party has demonstrated works, just in the direction of sanity in the Democratic Party and not the direction of insanity as the Tea Paritiers are doing to the Republican.
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