BotoxAgent
Member
JohnnyPhatsaqs said:
the worst most ignorant point I have read on this thread so far, congratulations
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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!
- Thread starter magicstop
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the worst most ignorant point I have read on this thread so far, congratulations
I was hopeful that this movement would try to find like cause and consolidate with people of differing ideological background against common problems. I'm not seeing that. The Tea Party was spurred by the bank bailouts, yet I often hear supporters of this movement call them racist, angry, run by the Koch brothers whatever. In response I hear hippies with ipads, union run, socialists, racists etc.
It seems obvious that there is common cause, I thought that would be obvious and exploited. Unfortunately I am losing faith in that.
It seems obvious that there is common cause, I thought that would be obvious and exploited. Unfortunately I am losing faith in that.
HerbertFish
Member
Can you tell me the point of the rallies? I honestly don't know. I've seen different things.bounchfx said:
Evil Benius said:
This is akin to the people who deny global warming because Al Gore flies in an airplane. How dour does a person's situation have to be to have a valid grievance? Do they have to be homeless? Jobless? Terminally ill?
We've gotten to this point in the first place because too many people stayed quiet while organized labor got crushed, massive tax cuts implemented, wars initiate, and corporate regulations were hollowed out. We should've been protesting these things when times were relatively better. And you would've said "what are you complaining about, you've still got a home, dont you?".
I think the standard of living, including the duration and strenuation of working life should improve over time. As it is, we have to fight just to keep our meager gains we've got.
ErasureAcer
Banned
Woke up late. Off to Occupy MN protest now. Look for pictures/video of the ATB dancing BULWORTH/NADER guy to spot me.
RSTEIN said:
Foxconn much? How about mining heavy metals, and then processing them for use in circuit boards, hard drives, lithium ion batteries, displays, etc?
Dechaios said:
No problem! Happy to be involved.
A really great snippet of news here from Occupy Dallas, accompanied by this photo:
Occupy Dallas: Police Love
Nice to see police getting involved in whatever capacity, even if just lugging stuff around and lending a hand.
empty vessel
Member
JohnnyPhatsaqs said:
Say that's true. The relevant question becomes, so what?
JohnnyPhatsaqs said:
Sure they would. Your belief that capitalism--and not just capitalism in general, but the precise version of unregulated capitalism in the US--is the sine qua non of consumer goods without which they wouldn't exist is false.
JohnnyPhatsaqs said:
Or, use it, and organize politically to change the economic system. Since either option is fine, using it seems to be the right course, because if people interested in changing the economic system abstained from the use of all technology they probably wouldn't get very far or be very effective. But, then, because you are proudly ignorant about our economic and political systems, that's actually what you want to see.
empty vessel said:
Not to mention, most of the significant technologies we have today are developed in the great Keynesian experiment of State Socialism known as the Department of Defense.
empty vessel said:
Right. Very few people believe in some back-to-nature, neo-Aboriginal agenda. We need modern technologies so that the worst, most demeaning labor can be automated, or at least be made easier. And we recognize that Capitalism is to thank for bringing about these technologies.
empty vessel said:
Great. We'll up to our eyeballs in jobs any minute now. You should visit successful business owners in your area and ask them how many jobs all the taxes and regulations they have to deal with are helping them hire new people. You can see the job creation first hand!
RSTEIN said:
Trolling factory suicides? You're a great case study in working-class solidarity.
RSTEIN said:
The reason we're not getting out of this economic disaster anytime soon is there's no demand in the market. Put simply, there aren't enough consumers with money to purchase goods and services. As a result, there's no incentive for employers to hire more employees.
If you pay the working class a living wage, there's demand in the market. Yes, goods are more expensive, but there are more people who can afford them, which is a positive feedback loop for employment.
This isn't even Marxist shit (although Marx has a lot to say on it), this was Henry Ford's basic idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordism
empty vessel
Member
140.85 said:
Are you under some weird delusion that we are currently in a society that meaningfully regulates business?
You should visit some people who work for a living and ask them how many jobs deregulation and obscenely low taxes brought them in the previous decade. By my count, it is zero.
You have no interest in the real, empirical world. Your only interest is in fetishizing the rich. Until we begin taxing the rich's political slush fund and using that money to stimulate demand through government spending, reduce income inequality, increase labor bargaining power, and provide effective oversight of corporations, we will remain economically stagnant.
140.85 said:
Labor is the engine that produced them. Your belief that an iPhone would not exist if, say, the highest marginal income tax bracket were higher or if rights to unionize were enforced or strengthened is a delusional one. These changes would not affect what is produced so much as who is empowered to enjoy the fruits of their production.
I consistently see what is reality. I don't believe pointing out the truth of the case that these people are pushing for policies that would increase the debt, have no sense of any austerity anywhere and are calling for various programs and institutions to be created and funded solely by 1% of the population.XMonkey said:
HerbertFish
Member
I did. It sounds like they are protesting for the right to some utopian-world to be honest.Volimar said:
If this protest is going to be successful, it needs a clear, simple, overreaching statement against something.
No, I was serious. The situation is horrible.theBishop said:
theBishop said:
Well, someone (you, empty vessel, I forget) said "technology is a prerequisite for an egalitarian society". Without Chinese manufacturing, then the cost of technology for the majority of people becomes prohibitive. Without Chinese labour, it's difficult to get technology to the masses (and lay the foundation for an egalitarian society).
You're saying Americans aren't making a "living wage." The median income in the US has been steadily rising since 2009. In fact, before the economic crisis it was close to an all time high.The economy is crap right now. It's cyclical. In 2005 we didn't have any protests. Just wait it out.
We're living in a country with close to the HIGHEST median income. If you really want to protest something, I think you should go to countries that are far worse off. As Buffett says, anyone borne in the US is a lottery winner. Hence most of our efforts should be made to help those born outside the US.
BotoxAgent
Member
Divvy said:
indeed, lol
I love how conservatives just ignore the past.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
It's nice to see protests popping up everywhere but they really ought to get some of the D.C. people and surrounding communities to set up shop in front of the Capitol.
RSTEIN said:You're saying Americans aren't making a "living wage." The median income in the US has been steadily rising since 2009. In fact, before the economic crisis it was close to an all time high.The economy is crap right now. It's cyclical. In 2005 we didn't have any protests. Just wait it out.
We're living in a country with close to the HIGHEST median income. If you really want to protest something, I think you should go to countries that are far worse off. As Buffett says, anyone borne in the US is a lottery winner. Hence most of our efforts should be made to help those born outside the US.
All of the gains come from women entering the workforce. Actual salaries for individuals have been stagnant since the early 70s.
reggieandTFE
Member
You need to come spend some time down in East Saint Louis and tell them yet are lottery winners. Hell, I live three blocks from Obama's house and there are entire city blocks where the lotto passed them right over.RSTEIN said:No, I was serious. The situation is horrible.
Well, someone (you, empty vessel, I forget) said "technology is a prerequisite for an egalitarian society". Without Chinese manufacturing, then the cost of technology for the majority of people becomes prohibitive. Without Chinese labour, it's difficult to get technology to the masses (and lay the foundation for an egalitarian society).
You're saying Americans aren't making a "living wage." The median income in the US has been steadily rising since 2009. In fact, before the economic crisis it was close to an all time high.The economy is crap right now. It's cyclical. In 2005 we didn't have any protests. Just wait it out.
We're living in a country with close to the HIGHEST median income. If you really want to protest something, I think you should go to countries that are far worse off. As Buffett says, anyone borne in the US is a lottery winner. Hence most of our efforts should be made to help those born outside the US.
empty vessel
Member
RSTEIN said:You're saying Americans aren't making a "living wage." The median income in the US has been steadily rising since 2009. In fact, before the economic crisis it was close to an all time high.The economy is crap right now. It's cyclical. In 2005 we didn't have any protests. Just wait it out.
We're living in a country with close to the HIGHEST median income. If you really want to protest something, I think you should go to countries that are far worse off. As Buffett says, anyone borne in the US is a lottery winner. Hence most of our efforts should be made to help those born outside the US.
Here is a better graph of median income adjusted for inflation:
Note some interesting things about it. Median income has only risen about 23% between approximately 1967 and 2010. Yet, productivity rose approximately 130% over that same period. Another way to reflect that:
What you are missing in all of this is that the relevant question is not whether the society is growing. It obviously is. Otherwise, we'd be in a permanent recession and it wouldn't be long before all wealth completely disappeared. In short, you cannot point to a rise in the median income as proof that there are no problems. Likewise, that the US has a high median income relative to other countries tells us absolutely nothing about the equity of how the US's economic gains are distributed. And this is the most important point. It is not about the absolute size or rate of growth of the US economic pie but about how that economic pie is being internally distributed. In other words, no matter what you want to say about the US economy in absolute terms, it will never make this phenomenon fair:
A society can be richer than other societies and still contain inequities within it. That should be too obvious to need stating.
What we are criticizing is the way in which the economic gains of our society--which we all contribute to through our labor--are redistributed upwards instead of distributed more equitably. The redistribution of the fruits of our labor upwards has not been the result of some organic, natural process, but was a product of the influence of money on our political institutions. Opposition to fixing the distortions in our system that have caused the fruits of our work to be redistributed upwards can be borne only of ignorance about what has happened. I strongly encourage you to really study this issue.
Zabka said:
All of the gains come from women entering the workforce. Actual salaries for individuals have been stagnant since the early 70s.
Wow, if anyone is ever looking for an example of what a free, egalitarian society is, point to this chart. Women's wages have come so far since 1950 it's staggering. Going to be a day worth celebrating when they get even closer.
That really sucks. What Buffett meant is that anyone born in the US at least has the opportunity to do great things. Relative to the rest of the world, the US is a nation of lottery winners.Zabka said:
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
RSTEIN said:
I don't know, man, "It could be worse, so shut up," just doesn't seem like the right answer to our country's problems.
Never said that. I think the whole Occupy thing is amazing. We live in a free society where people are free to protest anything. It's a real sight to behold.DOO13ER said:
You are very wrong. The difference between the wealthy and the rest of society we see today has been completely organic. It is the essence of the system we live in. It's pure mathematics. The rich get richer. I, being in the 1% will only get richer relative to you as time marches on. I'm not trying to. I'm not manipulating the system to make it so. I just can't help it.empty vessel said:
Politics has nothing to do with the wealth difference we see today. In fact, without government, without regulation, without democracy the difference between the top and the bottom would be even bigger.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
I went to the first General Assembly for Occupy New Hampshire last night. While it did go well, I think the group dynamics didn't embrace more group participation. I'm hoping to give some advice before the next meeting (which I won't be attending). I didn't get interviewed, but you can see me in the crowd.
Enosh
Member
what?RSTEIN said:
no
fuck no
anyone born outside the US has no right to expect anything from the US, the first priority of a state should always be it's own citizens, everyone else can go fuck them self and maybe get some scraps if the country is doing good and feels generous (aka the population is asked if they are fine with their tax money going towards aid)
A Human Becoming said:
What specific techniques were they using to facilitate? Stack, finger wiggle, etc.?
Enosh said:
This is an incredibly immoral view, especially when you consider that our wealth and well-being as a nation is directly due to the suffering and exploitation that we inflict elsewhere in the world. We vampire up the globe, and take care of only A#1? That's awful. Tell you what, when our economy and livelihood no longer relies on the exploitation of people and non-people around the globe, outside of the US, THEN we can start talking about only taking care of ourselves. But you are almost a century too late for that kind of thing
lol, no, I'm not. It's the truth, and not acknowledging it doesn't make it less true, but I don't want to derail this thread.zmoney said:
It's not system distortions -- it's the information age. When work was more physical, the productivity gap between the best and worst workers might be 2-5 times in output. But in the information age, where one person can do amazingly productive activities (setting up Facebook, creating a scoring algorithm that can be licensed to service millions of transactions, etc.), the gap can be considerably higher.empty vessel said:
Intelligence and brilliance are more rewarding today. That's a strong contributor to the income gap. Large-company CEOs make daily decisions that influence thousands of jobs, millions of customers, and billions in revenue. A factory worker might build a few chairs. This is reality in the information age.
Marleyman said:
lol, it's very telling of Stein, I think. In addition, I'd amend his statement to read "Often times they are crooks and oftentimes they are fools." The other problem is, when they steal and when they fuck up, because of how power and money is distributed, they steal big and they fuck up huge.
Enosh
Member
my political views aren't based on moralitymagicstop said:This is an incredibly immoral view, especially when you consider that our wealth and wellbeing as a nation is directly due to the suffering and exploitation that we inflict elsewhere in the world. We vampire up the globe, and take care of only A#1? That's awful. Tell you what, when our economy and livilihood no longer relies on the exploitation of people and non-people around the globe, outside of the US, THEN we can start talking about only taking care of ourselves. But you are almost a century too late for that kind of thing
they are based on thinking what's best for the nation and it's citizens
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
magicstop said:
That was what was used essentially. Here's part of the assembly. I have some issues with what was done, but I still need to gather my thoughts.
Enosh said:
Lacking empathy for fellow human-beings is one of the diagnostic signs for determining a sociopath. Your ability to discredit human value and human suffering because of man-made, arbitrary lines in the sand (i.e. borders) is pretty terrible. I hope that changes.
A Human Becoming said:
I look forwarding to hearing them once you've sorted things out.
Bloomberg: "They're 'Trying To Destroy The Jobs Of Working People'"
Wow, lol.
Dash27 said:
You have a sad that this isn't blowing wind up your skirt? You do realise that when they are saying racist they're talking about a racist? When they say it, they're pointing to the signs of Obama monkeys and spearhunters and other examples of subtle or overt racism. When they say Koch brother influence and control, they point to all the money the Koch brothers and other millionaires have added. And hell the Koch brothers basically chauffeured them to rallies, and are majority funders of many main tea party PAC groups. And you don't think they're angry? I've had a year plus of exposure to the tea partiers saying otherwise.
Are they wrong? Are the tea partiers on average just some moderate force? I mean they want to blame President Obama for the whole thing when he's been playing handball against their brick wall. I mean they elected every one of the politicians blocking Obama's attempts to use his power to act. So the Occupy Together should just be able to mesh with the Tea Party like velcro? I don't see it happening unless the Tea Party changed their attitudes on a lot of things.
Or are you of the mind that it's the Wall Street protesters that need to change? In what way? The tea partiers blame the left for all of this, for god's sake. Can you for the sake of argument be critical of the Tea Party? I don't know how many ways we can say that we know that not every member is a racist. But if the guy with the Obama watermelon shirt comes over to share some bbq, he's not going to turn him away. What's equal criticism for the other side, Dash?
And oh yeah, you people mentioning tech users etc, you don't need billionaires or wall street or mega corporations to make ipads. Those could go to geniuses with engineering labs in Stockton, IL and fabrication plants in Thailand. We used to do all of this ourselves until the market encouraged shipping our jobs away from us. We don't need Manhattan skyscrapers for all of that, they just make the Ipad commercials. The mega corps just make the money, flip the stocks, and shout at us workers to make more profit or get fired. We thank the great system for all of this when we don't realize we're the ones who built it. We think like consumers instead of producers now. Don't demonize the "hippies" or technology. That's a tool to use their voices now.
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