empty vessel
Member
remnant said:
Nor is there proof that you understand what you aren't protesting. I'm quite sure that those protesting are far more knowledgeable, on average, than you.
-
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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!
- Thread starter magicstop
- Start date
- Status
Nor is there proof that you understand what you aren't protesting. I'm quite sure that those protesting are far more knowledgeable, on average, than you.
remnant said:
Yes, a lot of people don't know what the exact cause of this morass is, which is completely understandable (see my reply to Enron above). What I don't understand is you fault people for trying to educate them on the subject without even knowing what will be said. They aren't even claiming to explain the entirety of wall street; "Basic" is in the title of the fucking course. Yes, it's just an introduction and they aren't claiming it is anything else.
How about picking up a book not a protest rally, or better yet do some research independently. People would be amazed if they did actual research on the countries they oft want us to imitate.Karma Kramer said:
I wouldn't trust a class here just as I wouldn't trust a class at a TP rally. The bias here is way to obvious.
Karma Kramer
Banned
remnant said:
lol whatever man, you sound insane to me right now... keep on trucking
remnant said:
Yeah, because authors don't have biases. And this movement surely isn't being informed by authors. And I KNOW they won't be using any books at that forum. Nor did the graduate program that Amy Whitaker got her degrees from. Nope.
EDIT: I've had my fill of troll. Whatever else you've got, you're going to have to scramble it up on your own tonight.
Enron said:
Waaaitttt a sec . . . I agree that this thread isn't about you, and that we shouldn't be focusing on busting your nuts so much.
But I also think I know my response for ANY critical question leveled at me or the Occupy movement from now on
empty vessel
Member
Alucrid said:
We are indeed. Some of us just don't understand why that is.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Enron said:
Enron said:
You can't answer this simple question?
Anyone remember this episode of This American Life? BLEGH.
http://thehairpin.com/2011/10/the-best-time-i-occupied-wall-street
http://thehairpin.com/2011/10/the-best-time-i-occupied-wall-street
magicstop said:Waaaitttt a sec . . . I agree that this thread isn't about you, and that we shouldn't be focusing on busting your nuts so much.
But I also think I know my response for ANY critical question leveled at me or the Occupy movement from now on
I'm not really here to question the Occupy movement, either. And if I do ask questions, i don't intend to play a GOTCHA! game like a couple of people have tried to play with me in here. I am just here to argue ( i guess) the other side of the coin while not being too much of a prick. Of course, most of the posters here probably think being ON the other side of the coin automatically makes you a fucking asshole.
So checking the AJC today for Occupy news, looks like the city is just letting the protesters sit there in the park in spite of warning them last night. But they seem to be an orderly bunch - not cocking up traffic or challenging cops like their friends in NYC and Boston.
Bloodbeard
Member
Hey Dr. Wood,
I have been following the Occupy Movement since it began on the 17th. You had mentioned that you werent as familiar with what was going as you should be and so I thought I would compile an OccupyTogether Primer. It is of course non-exhaustive and non-systematic in its analysis but I thought it might be a good place to start. Im not really interested in becoming a spokesperson or watchdog to the class for the movement, but I thought I might send you a few links that may help move any further class discussion on the topic.
In class, a few mentioned the demand of $20/hr. That was from a list of proposals dated September 29, 2011. The List of Demands from the NYCGA is a living document and its demands are continually refined, rejected, and substituted with stronger and more pointed demands. Early demands were ridiculous and understandably so. Many are scared of continued degradation of their standard of living and the solutions required are complex. Given this, its not surprising that initial demands were made more out of anger and frustration at the situation than from a dialectical process resulting in consensus on a solution.
After all, there were 13 years between the declaration of independence and the constitution. Therefore, I think it is important to emphasize the process rather than the content at this point.
Here is an excerpt (current as of 10-4-2011):
CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlassSteagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the GlassSteagall Act of 1933 by the GrammLeachBliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 20072011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlassSteagall_Act#Repeal.
USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.
CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.
CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.
CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.
CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.
CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.
ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.[/quote]
Other suggestions have been made for consideration in implementing official documentation, but again, no official documentation is currently being endorsed.
Helpful Links:
OccupyTogether - list of all Occupy events around the globe: http://www.occupytogether.org/ (As of 10-11-2011, there are events in 1,445 cities globally)\
Quick Quide on Group Dynamics in Peoples Assemblies. This is the how to manual used in organizing at Occupy Events.
http://takethesquare.net/2011/07/31/quick-guide-on-group-dynamics-in-peoples-assemblies/
Proposed List of Demands: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
Livestream from OccupyWallStreet: http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
(There are live streams for many of the other events, and they used to be compiled onto a single site which is no longer up, so just search google)
Articles:
Panic of The Plutocrats - Paul Krugman, New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/o...=1&scp=2&sq=occupy wall street krugman&st=cse
Occupy Wall Street: The Most Important Thing in the World Now - Naomi Klein, The Nation http://www.thenation.com/article/163844/occupy-wall-street-most-important-thing-world-now
Occupy Wall Street's focus on disparity hits nerve - Andrew S Ross, San Francisco Chronicle http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/08/BUMU1LEBVV.DTL#ixzz1aVboXQXH
Occupy DC protesters rally in Freedom Plaza - Annie Gowen, Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...reedom-plaza/2011/10/06/gIQATeeLQL_story.html
Occupy Wall Street's Message: More Than A Sound Bite - David Callahan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/10/05/occupy-wall-streets-message-more-than-a-sound-bite/
Independent Reporting of #OccupyWallStreet - Robert David Graham http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2011/10/independent-reporting-of.html
Occupy Wall Street Spreading to Canada - Michael Woods, The Star (Toronto) http://www.thestar.com/news/article...spreading-to-canada?bn=1#.TonEGV5Avto.twitter
99%: A Warning to OWS and the Rest of Us http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/10/1024591/-99:-A-Warning-to-OWS-and-the-Rest-of-Us
Open Letter and Warning From Former Tea Partier to the OWS Movement http://occupywallst.org/forum/open-letter-and-warning-from-former-tea-partier-to/
A Zuccotti Park Education http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/oct/11/zuccotti-park-education/
Videos:
Right Here All Over http://vimeo.com/30081785
We The People Have Found Our Voice http://vimeo.com/30241489
Joseph Stiglitz and Jeff Madrick @ #occupywallstreet Open Economic Forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF8L2DWhpw&feature=share
SLAVOJ ZIZEK AT OWS PART1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu9BWlcRwPQ
SLAVOJ ZIZEK AT OWS PART2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UpmUly9It4&feature=related
Marine / Army Vets @OccupyWallStreet Tell Sean Hannity to "FUCK OFF" - HOOaaaAH!!! OWShttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugAnDWxHPoM
And because this is the internet-age, trolling Occupywallstreet www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mmWmaHMibJs#!
Another thing that was brought up was the divisive nature of the party...that it was the lefts response to the tea party. I disagree with that assessment. I think this movement is looking for consensus and inclusion of people from diverse ethnic, social, and political backgrounds. The movement is self-critical and is in the process of defining itself on it's own terms unlike the Tea Party which has become an extremist branch of the Republican Party underwritten by the Koch Brothers (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html?pagewanted=all).
Example of this self-critique include two open letters addressing the racial makeup of the movement and ensuring minority representation in the "99%"
AN OPEN LETTER FROM TWO WHITE MEN TO #OCCUPYWALLSTREET - http://owst.tumblr.com/post/11007465721/an-open-letter-from-two-white-men-to-occupywallstreet
So Real It Hurts: Notes on Occupy Wall Street - http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/03/so-real-it-hurts-notes-on-occupy-wall-street/
We also discussed how movements like this have been co-opted by the larger parties (most often the democrats). This is not lost on many in the Occupy Movement. For instance, we've seen at OccupyATL, a democratic decision NOT to let congressman John Lewis (a notable Civil Rights Leader) speak at the General Assembly. He was democratically voted down from speaking, not because people didn't want to hear him, but because the meeting was currently engaged in other matters and stack was not open (stack being the chance to address the GA). He was offered a chance to speak later when stack would be open, but he had another engagement and couldn't stay. Despite people wanting to report that this was a "diss" on John Lewis and try to shame OccupyATL, what we are seeing is a respect for process and a belief that no person (especially one belonging to an established political party) is above another and no one can unfairly influence the process in OccupyTogether.
Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqPPNpjupu4
I have been following the Occupy Movement since it began on the 17th. You had mentioned that you werent as familiar with what was going as you should be and so I thought I would compile an OccupyTogether Primer. It is of course non-exhaustive and non-systematic in its analysis but I thought it might be a good place to start. Im not really interested in becoming a spokesperson or watchdog to the class for the movement, but I thought I might send you a few links that may help move any further class discussion on the topic.
In class, a few mentioned the demand of $20/hr. That was from a list of proposals dated September 29, 2011. The List of Demands from the NYCGA is a living document and its demands are continually refined, rejected, and substituted with stronger and more pointed demands. Early demands were ridiculous and understandably so. Many are scared of continued degradation of their standard of living and the solutions required are complex. Given this, its not surprising that initial demands were made more out of anger and frustration at the situation than from a dialectical process resulting in consensus on a solution.
After all, there were 13 years between the declaration of independence and the constitution. Therefore, I think it is important to emphasize the process rather than the content at this point.
Here is an excerpt (current as of 10-4-2011):
CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlassSteagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the GlassSteagall Act of 1933 by the GrammLeachBliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 20072011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlassSteagall_Act#Repeal.
USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.
CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.
CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.
CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.
CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.
CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.
ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.[/quote]
Other suggestions have been made for consideration in implementing official documentation, but again, no official documentation is currently being endorsed.
Helpful Links:
OccupyTogether - list of all Occupy events around the globe: http://www.occupytogether.org/ (As of 10-11-2011, there are events in 1,445 cities globally)\
Quick Quide on Group Dynamics in Peoples Assemblies. This is the how to manual used in organizing at Occupy Events.
http://takethesquare.net/2011/07/31/quick-guide-on-group-dynamics-in-peoples-assemblies/
Proposed List of Demands: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
Livestream from OccupyWallStreet: http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
(There are live streams for many of the other events, and they used to be compiled onto a single site which is no longer up, so just search google)
Articles:
Panic of The Plutocrats - Paul Krugman, New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/o...=1&scp=2&sq=occupy wall street krugman&st=cse
Occupy Wall Street: The Most Important Thing in the World Now - Naomi Klein, The Nation http://www.thenation.com/article/163844/occupy-wall-street-most-important-thing-world-now
Occupy Wall Street's focus on disparity hits nerve - Andrew S Ross, San Francisco Chronicle http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/08/BUMU1LEBVV.DTL#ixzz1aVboXQXH
Occupy DC protesters rally in Freedom Plaza - Annie Gowen, Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...reedom-plaza/2011/10/06/gIQATeeLQL_story.html
Occupy Wall Street's Message: More Than A Sound Bite - David Callahan http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/10/05/occupy-wall-streets-message-more-than-a-sound-bite/
Independent Reporting of #OccupyWallStreet - Robert David Graham http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2011/10/independent-reporting-of.html
Occupy Wall Street Spreading to Canada - Michael Woods, The Star (Toronto) http://www.thestar.com/news/article...spreading-to-canada?bn=1#.TonEGV5Avto.twitter
99%: A Warning to OWS and the Rest of Us http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/10/1024591/-99:-A-Warning-to-OWS-and-the-Rest-of-Us
Open Letter and Warning From Former Tea Partier to the OWS Movement http://occupywallst.org/forum/open-letter-and-warning-from-former-tea-partier-to/
A Zuccotti Park Education http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/oct/11/zuccotti-park-education/
Videos:
Right Here All Over http://vimeo.com/30081785
We The People Have Found Our Voice http://vimeo.com/30241489
Joseph Stiglitz and Jeff Madrick @ #occupywallstreet Open Economic Forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF8L2DWhpw&feature=share
SLAVOJ ZIZEK AT OWS PART1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu9BWlcRwPQ
SLAVOJ ZIZEK AT OWS PART2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UpmUly9It4&feature=related
Marine / Army Vets @OccupyWallStreet Tell Sean Hannity to "FUCK OFF" - HOOaaaAH!!! OWShttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugAnDWxHPoM
And because this is the internet-age, trolling Occupywallstreet www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mmWmaHMibJs#!
Another thing that was brought up was the divisive nature of the party...that it was the lefts response to the tea party. I disagree with that assessment. I think this movement is looking for consensus and inclusion of people from diverse ethnic, social, and political backgrounds. The movement is self-critical and is in the process of defining itself on it's own terms unlike the Tea Party which has become an extremist branch of the Republican Party underwritten by the Koch Brothers (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html?pagewanted=all).
Example of this self-critique include two open letters addressing the racial makeup of the movement and ensuring minority representation in the "99%"
AN OPEN LETTER FROM TWO WHITE MEN TO #OCCUPYWALLSTREET - http://owst.tumblr.com/post/11007465721/an-open-letter-from-two-white-men-to-occupywallstreet
So Real It Hurts: Notes on Occupy Wall Street - http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/03/so-real-it-hurts-notes-on-occupy-wall-street/
We also discussed how movements like this have been co-opted by the larger parties (most often the democrats). This is not lost on many in the Occupy Movement. For instance, we've seen at OccupyATL, a democratic decision NOT to let congressman John Lewis (a notable Civil Rights Leader) speak at the General Assembly. He was democratically voted down from speaking, not because people didn't want to hear him, but because the meeting was currently engaged in other matters and stack was not open (stack being the chance to address the GA). He was offered a chance to speak later when stack would be open, but he had another engagement and couldn't stay. Despite people wanting to report that this was a "diss" on John Lewis and try to shame OccupyATL, what we are seeing is a respect for process and a belief that no person (especially one belonging to an established political party) is above another and no one can unfairly influence the process in OccupyTogether.
Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqPPNpjupu4
Alucrid said:
Regardless of my disagreement with certain actions by some of the protesters, I think this movement has a better chance of making a difference in government and financial corruption than any we've seen in years. Apathetic attitudes like, "call me when they get something done," are part of what let things slip this far in the first place.
Yes u need to read books to understand economics and how it pertains to Trade markets. Atleast the history of global economies. Sorry to burst your bubble.FlyinJ said:
If you refuse to, that's your perogative. Don't be offended when people don't see you as someone carrying a opinion that carries weight.
What appears, on cursory inspection, to be an extremely good read on the OWS movement:
Zucotti Park Education
It talks a lot about the educational and learning process that is occurring at OWS.
A few quotes:
Great article!
I'm about to start mining your post . . . thanks Bloodbeard!
EDIT: Double doh, getting confused left and right . . . Thank you Bloodbeard! Let us know his response.
Zucotti Park Education
It talks a lot about the educational and learning process that is occurring at OWS.
A few quotes:
Great point/observation.
Great article!
Bloodbeard said:
I'm about to start mining your post . . . thanks Bloodbeard!
EDIT: Double doh, getting confused left and right . . . Thank you Bloodbeard! Let us know his response.
remnant said:
If a super intelligent guy builds a system to rip people off that is so complex and intricate that only one out of a thousand people have any chance of understanding exactly how it works, does that mean all the people who don't have any hope of understanding it don't have a right to object to being screwed over?
Bloodbeard
Member
magicstop said:
What I've written is confusing? I'm still adding to it, and so if it is unclear in anyway please, I'll gladly hear suggestions.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Pshh, probably a biased library, right remnant?sphagnum said:
remnant said:
Irrelevant. Answer the question.
EDIT: The point of the question should be obvious. If you answer they don't have a right to be upset, then you support the morally questionable notion that "might makes right." If you answer that they do, then the basic premise of your argument is flawed.
cooljeanius
Member
So McPherson Square has tents and tarps erected in it now. Also tomorrow Occupy DC is going to be marching in solidarity with the SEIU, which I might go to if I have time. Apparently the janitors are considering striking over contract negotiations.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Glad to see this protest continue. I said it before, that it was 100% inevitable that eventually you would have people overwhelmingly protesting in favor of workers and social justice. It is an absolute inevitable end and history has proven as much countless times. Humans will always seek greater comfort, and while for a time we may make sacrifices out of a lack of will to change our condition, eventually a breaking point will be reached and improvements will be demanded and obtained.
Right now the protests remain secluded from one another, in different parts of the world, marching for different reasons, but bridges will be inevitably created in this connected world, leading to a more global and stronger movement. The rhetoric and the politics written by the excessively rich class will be a thing of the past, remembered as absurdities.
Right now the protests remain secluded from one another, in different parts of the world, marching for different reasons, but bridges will be inevitably created in this connected world, leading to a more global and stronger movement. The rhetoric and the politics written by the excessively rich class will be a thing of the past, remembered as absurdities.
Guy around the protests shitting on a police car.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hav...all-street-protester-defecating-on-a-cop-car/
Edited for accuracy
Irrelevant? The course description shouldn't be taken into consideration when determining if the class is teaching an agenda to reform a system, or teqching the real basics to understand the system.Jak140 said:
People have the right to feel outrage at whatever. They don't have the right to expect others to take them seriously becuase they surrond themselves in group think. They are still "ignorant" imo if the most they have exposed themselves to economics and finance is a crash course in a large science.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
nateeasy said:
On one hand: What a fucking idiot. Bad PR.
On the other: Bwahahahahah. Just a ridiculous image.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Dartastic said:
Thanks for the link Dartastic. Blegh indeed.
Its also interesting to see my facebook page. A lot of my old college mates that work on wall street (or near there) vacationing or posting awesome food they are eating while my other college mates that are at the protests posting up pictures of the large crowds on wall street.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
remnant said:
I don't understand how "reform the system" is supposed to be a biased position. Biased toward what/who, exactly?
DOO13ER said:
We're making an assumption that this guy is even a protester. Right now we can only say for certain that he's an indiscriminate shitter, and he should only be referred to as such.
DOO13ER said:
Biased against successful people, biased for the rest of the losers.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
akira28 said:
It reminds me of a Penny Arcade comic about one of the main guys shitting in someone's food at a restaurant.
"He didn't like it. He wished I had shit somewhere else."
I can picture an incredulous cop saying that.
bill gonorrhea
Member
magicstop said:Wow! Looking at the NYGCA's website, they are doing some cool stuff like hosting educational forums. I saw the following happening today at 10:00am:
For all of you moaning about how the Occupy people are all ignorant, etc., not only is that not the case, but organized educational forums are seeking to further prove it wrong
I could hold a forum and put form evidence that the sky is green. Doesnt mean its good.
UltimaPooh
Member
bill gonorrhea said:
No you couldn't.
remnant said:
No, irrelevant as in the post you made had zero relevance to the post you quoted. Saying "understand the system you want to reform" is not a biased statement. If they present facts which point to a conclusion that you disagree with, it is not a valid argument to simply disregard their conclusion without having any notion of the evidence they have to back it up.
Secondly, you seem to imply that people who may not have the intellectual or financial means to completely grasp a subject outside of their area of expertise (and that many in the financial sector don't even totally understand) deserve to be taken advantage of. This is not only absurd, it is morally repugnant.
That 53 thing makes me so, so, so so angry. It's just outrageous that people are so brainwashed by conservative message that they don't even realize what they're spewing.
The guy in that article:
Yeah, you shouldn't have to have 3 jobs. Insurance costs shouldn't be outrageous. This guy is fighting against most people that are on his side. I'm sure the Wall Street Occupiers would have no problem working hard for their families. They're protesting because they shouldn't realistically have to because there's another solution to things. Trying to change a bunk system now makes you a whiner?
Guess our founding fathers and the revolutionaries were just whiners. Shoulda just sucked it up and paid their taxes to the Brits. Buncha babies.
The guy in that article:
Yeah, you shouldn't have to have 3 jobs. Insurance costs shouldn't be outrageous. This guy is fighting against most people that are on his side. I'm sure the Wall Street Occupiers would have no problem working hard for their families. They're protesting because they shouldn't realistically have to because there's another solution to things. Trying to change a bunk system now makes you a whiner?
Guess our founding fathers and the revolutionaries were just whiners. Shoulda just sucked it up and paid their taxes to the Brits. Buncha babies.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
XtremeRampage said:
Oy, yeah let's just forget that the reason over half don't pay federal income taxes is because the tax bracket doesn't go that fucking low...
But sure, they're all just lazy leeches. Half of America.
I would love to see the facts they show. Will the show that many of the countries they admire have cut government spending for the past decade, such as Canada or Sweden? that many of them have less regulation than we do? Less trade barriers than we do? Stronger property rights than we do? Lower taxes than we do?Jak140 said:
Will they show that Glass-Steagal is unique in the world in that we are one of the few countries that have a law that does what that does.
Will they show the truth that our bubble based economy is largely due to policy that encourages spending above our means such as deductions to buy homes or student loans that are guaranteed by the federal government and can't be wiped away in case of bankruptcy? Will they point out the fact that raising taxes on the "1%" would barely scratch our deficit in the short or long term?
Everyone seems to have their own version of the truth these days.
Really how many people don't have the intellectual or financial ability to buy a book. Much less have the ability to do basic math.Jak140 said:
I have no problem if these people want to learn finance. All the better. However if these people are just going to be taught the same old "The world started with Ronald Reagan, and all that matters is he lowered taxes and then the apocalypse clock started." then no, they are still ignorant in my opinion.
Biased towards to those doing the reforming. I don't buy the "were all in this together" bullshit Empty Vessel likes to spew. Me and you are not comrades because we both make less money than someone else. They are clearly pushing for changes and some I don't agree with.
Are they going to lower government spending, lessen trade barriers, make regulation more transparent, get rid of buy american provisions, high out-of-quota tariffs, services market access restrictions, import licensing, and export-promotion programs and subsidies and create more flexible labor markets by promoting guilds and flexible unions over shrinking albatross we have today? I don't think so.
empty vessel
Member
remnant said:
But, you're ignorant. I don't understand how you presume you are in a position to cast judgment in this regard.
If you want to learn something, start here: Winner-Take-All Politics: Public Policy, Political Organization, and the Precipitous Rise of Top Incomes in the United States.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
remnant said:
History be damned.
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