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"OCCUPY WALL STREET"

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Marleyman said:
My point is just because you are comfortable(some kind of lodging, a tv, internet connection) doesn't mean that the issues plaguing this country aren't worth our time.

So go stand in a street? I'm pretty sure I've seen statistics that one of the positive things that has come out of this recession is an increase in volunteer work and better applicants for non-prof work. That sounds like an increase in dedication. You don't have to stand aimlessly on Wall St or the Mall to get involved.
 
Marleyman said:
My point is just because you are comfortable(some kind of lodging, a tv, internet connection) doesn't mean that the issues plaguing this country aren't worth our time.
Right, but that has always been the case. The reason you're romanticizing the protests in the past is because people back then had far more serious problems (compared to now).
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
I mean yes and no. I've said these are exacerbating the problem. Citing this as a contributing factor doesn't really mean I'm out there in a cape and cowl punching hippies on Wall St. I don't even think I've been all that inflamatory to the people in this thread, though you're welcome to show otherwise.

I don't think they are exacerbating the problem. I don't think there's really a problem to exacerbate, but if there were, I don't think these people are doing much to lower the discourse or contribute to sound-bite culture.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
So go stand in a street? I'm pretty sure I've seen statistics that one of the positive things that has come out of this recession is an increase in volunteer work and better applicants for non-prof work. That sounds like an increase in dedication. You don't have to stand aimlessly on Wall St or the Mall to get involved.

No, standing in the street does nothing at this point. Volunteer work and non-profit work is not going to stop what is happening either. The way I see it, there needs to be a concerted effort to make it known that the people will not stand for what has happened to this country. I honestly don't know the best approach to making this happen, do you? Also, do you think things are just fine and we shouldn't even worry about it?
 
Dude Abides said:
I don't think they are exacerbating the problem. I don't think there's really a problem to exacerbate, but if there were, I don't think these people are doing much to lower the discourse or contribute to sound-bite culture.

Well at that point I think we're just at disagreement in our analysis. No problem with that. However, I've been told I'm on a high horse, a corporate sympathizer, and that I'm factually wrong (on the corporate personhood thing). The high horse thing I would almost understand if someone were just at a different point of view (as you clearly are), but saying that because I'm only posting on the internet and obviously doing nothing else is just baseless conjecture. Also, I've criticized the protestors but not really anyone here, but people have been pretty quick to claim I'm awful for my assessment of these American Heroes.

Marleyman said:
No, standing in the street does nothing at this point. Volunteer work and non-profit work is not going to stop what is happening either. The way I see it, there needs to be a concerted effort to make it known that the people will not stand for what has happened to this country. I honestly don't know the best approach to making this happen, do you? Also, do you think things are just fine and we shouldn't even worry about it?

Another (baseless) assumption about my views drawn from assumptions about people who think this protest is stupid.

No. There are ALWAYS problems that need to be fixed. Though I disagree with you on how we can go about fixing them. Find a candidate you think will help fix the problem and go canvas for them or something.

Final Edit: I think I'm out of this thread for a while. Dude is right that I've put WAY too much effort into this thread. It was entertaining for a while and now its distracting me. ADD is bad kids.
 
Oh guys, stop being so harsh to Manos. The man interrupted his busy day of defending torture, war crimes and crimes against humanity to ruin this thread with his illogical hate about protesters and you're attacking him? Shame on you.


Killing/torturing human beings: A-OK. Redirecting traffic due to protests: Unspeakable horror.
 
One of the key elements in distinguishing between a semi-intelligent person and a sheepish, "partisan one-liner spewing" idiot is the ability to be specific in defining one's opinions/solutions. Simply calling for "reform" is not specific and demonstrates that one is not informed enough on the topic at hand.

Also, one should be able to have a concrete understanding of the topic's environment or problem set by assigning realistic ranges of probabilities of such solutions to their respective issues.

So, want you to "reform" the financial industry of the United States? Well, of course there's room for reform, but that's not specific enough and if that's all you're capable of saying, then unfortunately, you're not helping the conversation in any measurable form.

So...how about re-enacting Glass-Steagall? All right, there you go, a specifically defined measure! However, again, one must understand the environment of the US and global financial industries to be able to see how probable it's re-enactment would be. Re-enacting Glass-Steagall would essentially force all the major and minor US banks to cut off their now very intertwined and entrenched equity/commodity/currency investment branches. That is not going to happen, the cat is already out the bag- re-enacting Glass-Steagall is akin to repealing the 2nd amendment.

Now, in my opinion, the major problems with Wall Street derive from: a) the high volatility in the equities markets from computer based flash/day trading and b) the pumping of the commodities market. The former causes companies to not have enough time to forecast their available capital and forces CEOs/upper management to overly concern themselves over very short-term gains/losses versus the longer term overall viability of their companies. The latter unnecessarily raises prices on products the larger economy (US and global) uses every day, while hiding under the guise of "basic supply & demand principles", yet such traditional economic principles are not fully applicable in today's modern economies [I can explain this in more detail if needed].

I have defined the specific problems, and now, they require specific solutions.
And such solutions have actually been proposed before, though you will not find them the typical moronic political blogs or general news sites. To reduce market volatility, the government should incentivize longer term trading and decentivize day trading, which it already does, but increase this separation by increasing capital gains taxes for day trading and decreasing such taxes for holding onto an investment for say- a year and even lower for 2 years and so on. To reduce commodity trading, the government can increase taxes on the gains of those specific trades (like it does primarily for gold) and/or put caps on the size of the trades, which would reduce to the heavy influence of large hedge funds and investment banks.

Overall, the system is not broken, it requires refining, and such refinement will not come from stinking up lower Manhattan yelling gibberish all day.
 
SuperBonk said:
Right, but that has always been the case. The reason you're romanticizing the protests in the past is because people back then had far more serious problems (compared to now).

While we have a democratically-elected government do you really think they operate with the will of the people in mind any longer? They are bought and paid for by lobbyists, corporations, and Wall St.
 
Something Wicked said:
To reduce market volatility, the government should incentivize longer term trading and decentivize day trading, which it already does, but increase this separation by increasing capital gains taxes for day trading and decreasing such taxes for holding onto an investment for say- a year and even lower for 2 years and so on.
Long term capital gains just went from 15% to 18-20% or something. You want it lower?
 
dave is ok said:
Long term capital gains just went from 15% to 18-20% or something. You want it lower?

Yes, it could have a sizable effect on reducing market volatility, which hurt middle class investors and businesses alike. Also, the 15%, 18%, 20% are federal rates for those in the first top 4 income brackets for shares held for a year+. States have cap gains taxes as well, and federal cap gains taxes are much higher when held for less than a year.

I'm saying we differentiate the tax rate in holding such equities even further. Have different rates for holding stocks for a day, a month, 6 months, a year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, etc- raise the rates for those held for the under a year proposed brackets and lower them for over a year proposed brackets.

If you simply raise rates across the board, which seems to be one of the left-leaning talking points, you're going to crush the middle class investors and force money into off-shore markets and companies.

EDIT: And believe me, such proposals would put much more fear into many Wall Street traders than any semblance of a rational solution that these children protesting could muster.
 
x2_85ba2a6


Indymedia center at Liberty Square
 
Something Wicked said:
Yes, it could have a sizable effect on reducing market volatility, which hurt middle class investors and businesses alike. Also, the 15%, 18%, 20% are federal rates for those in the first top 4 income brackets for shares held for a year+. States have cap gains taxes as well, and federal cap gains taxes are much higher when held for less than a year.

I'm saying we differentiate the tax rate in holding such equities even further. Have different rates for holding stocks for a day, a month, 6 months, a year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, etc- raise the rates for those held for the under a year proposed brackets and lower them for over a year proposed brackets.

If you simply raise rates across the board, which seems to be one of the left-leaning talking points, you're going to crush the middle class investors and force money into off-shore markets and companies.

EDIT: And believe me, such proposals would put much more fear into many Wall Street traders than any semblance of a rational solution that these children protesting could muster.
"Middle class investors"

Is there really such thing?

Arguing that banks are too big to reinstate Glass Steagall is a pretty lousy argument too. If a corporation is so big that their insolvency threatens the entire US economy, they should be broken apart
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
We just have no idea what it is!

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Uhh... what? Looks like they do know what it is that they want based on the picture that you posted. See? It says on the sign right there. Read it.
 
Something Wicked said:
So...how about re-enacting Glass-Steagall? All right, there you go, a specifically defined measure! However, again, one must understand the environment of the US and global financial industries to be able to see how probable it's re-enactment would be. Re-enacting Glass-Steagall would essentially force all the major and minor US banks to cut off their now very intertwined and entrenched equity/commodity/currency investment branches. That is not going to happen, the cat is already out the bag- re-enacting Glass-Steagall is akin to repealing the 2nd amendment.

Well yeah, but the current situation was spurred on by the repeal of Glass-Steagall; do you agree?
 
Bloodbeard said:
http://nycga.net

New York City General Assembly. This should serve as the hub for #occupywallstreet information including meeting minutes and other pertinent information.

http://nycga.cc/?cat=8
After meeting in Zuccotti park there were mini break out assembly leading up to the main General Assembly.
There was a discusstion about the process of the General Assembly.

The following items were decided:

We will stay in Liberty Plaza indefinitely
We will rename Zuccotti park to Liberty Plaza
We will maintain the space and will be responsible for its up keep
We will select working and thematic groups
Some Groups that have been suggested (and are active):
Working Groups: Security, Food, Legal, Tactical, Sanitation, Media, Internet
Thematic groups: nuclear power and the enviroment, Student education

Nuclear Power?
 
dave is ok said:
"Middle class investors"

Is there really such thing?

There are in the sense that there are middle class people who get some income, retirement funds, etc. from investing. But what I find to be so problematic with "middle class investors" in rhetoric is that for the middle class, investment income is very small compared to labor income. When it comes to the numbers, the middle class are first and foremost workers, but many of us would rather think of ourselves as investors first and workers second. So they get excited when they gain a few hundred bucks on their investments, or upset when they lose a few hundred, and believe what's good for their investments are good for them.

But on the other hand, often when companies make moves to screw over their employees like layoffs, or cutting pay or benefits, the motivation is to make even more money for investors, rather than simply staying afloat. As a whole for middle-class investors the gains in investments are more than offset by losses in wages and benefits from employers paying too much attention to investors over employees.
 
https://www.examiner.com/entrepreneur-in-national/loose-lips-twitter-at-goldman-sachs

Goldman Sachs, the Wall Street Bank and Federal Reserve partner, became a household name on Main Street in the fall of 2008 with its participation in the global financial meltdown. And while the firm had been largely categorized a behemoth monolith, GSElevator on Twitter is giving the global bank a bit more color with tweeted glimpses of corporate culture via conversations of workers who don't take the stairs.

The account, which has been up and running since August, is reportedly run by an anonymous middle or above-level banker who has " long been cynical of the industry and the people that build their entire sense of self around it," according to a New York Times story.

By looks of tweets on the account, GSElevator's cynicism is well founded as hubris, misogyny, and middle- and working-class contempt are common themes.

(i)

Analyst #1: She lives in Harlem. Analyst #2: What the f*ck. We do God's work, not social work.
#1: For a first year analyst, he's pretty good. #2: Yeah, has the confidence of a fat chick in a tube top
#1: Bali. Jo wants a destination wedding. #2: Nice, and the benefit of being far away, it'll filter out any poor people u have to invite.


Most currently, Goldman employees in New York are taking notice of Occupy Wall Street protests -- a Web-rooted movement where activists are filling the streets of lower Manhattan to denounce unscrupulous central banking practices that have wrought detrimental financial reverberations around the world.

A#1 (on protesters): I was going to make a sign... Goldman Sachs: Win, cheat, or quit. We don't f*cking lose - ever. A#2 (laughs): Or... 'Get rich and buy your own sh*t. Protests and riots are for p*ssies. #occupywallstreet.


Goldman is responding to its public relations nightmare with an internal probe, according to reports . GSElevator, however, claims precautions won't make the hunt too easy as tweets, which encompass both personally overheard as well as reported overheard elevator conversations, are made only from wi-fi hot spots using only a computer that was purchased with cash.
 
dave is ok said:
Doesn't mean it isn't worth it to demonstrate in some way.
Actually, it is. Popular support is a resource that should be squandered and used carefully. The only thing this sham of a protest accomplishes is making it harder for a worthwhile protest to take off. If someone, some day from now, sets out to organize a serious protest with clear goals and good organization, they will have to overcome the damage this protest has done to leftist causes.

If you wanted evidence you could just reread this thread. People were mocking this protest from the start, and now their derision is vindicated. The youth demographic has become just a little more apathetic and cynical thanks to these morons at Wall Street Bowling Greens.
 
Its a shame they couldn't come up with a coherent message before starting the protest. All I see is "Capitalism is bad, fix it"
 
dave is ok said:
"Middle class investors"

Is there really such thing?

Arguing that banks are too big to reinstate Glass Steagall is a pretty lousy argument too. If a corporation is so big that their insolvency threatens the entire US economy, they should be broken apart

I would safely say a vast majority of Americans have some degree of investment into the US equities markets via their retirement funds, children's college funds, 401k, online trading accounts, etc.

This current recession was triggered back in '08 by banks not leading to each other and to significantly reduce lending- forcing many companies not having enough cash to meet weekly payrolls and thus having layoff parts of their workforce. You want to steamroll a bill in to instantly rip to these banks apart? Re-enacting Glass-Steagall would not only cause a repeat of the above, but have significantly deeper repercussions to the US economy. Essentially, it'd cause a full-fledged decade or so long depression. So, again, we need realistic solutions.


Marleyman said:
Well yeah, but the current situation was spurred on by the repeal of Glass-Steagall; do you agree?

Its repeal was one of many reasons, and I would not say it was even the primary reason either- people accepting/giving out the shitty mortgages is reason #1- in the US at least.

Also, Glass-Steagall was repealed, in order for US banks to become more competitive with its European bank counterparts. If the UK, France, and Germany had enforced Glass-Steagall like amendments decades ago, perhaps GS's repeal never would have happened in the US. Such banks in Europe were/are taking part in highly risky leading practices as well- and that's another reason why this recession has been so prominent, as the US and Europe are both at fault.
 
Marleyman said:
I am not for burning down buildings for the fuck of it. My point is that our forefathers had the balls to fight back against oppression and tyranny yet all we do is talk and take no action.
did you get your american history MA from disneyland U too?

your noble forefathers were essentially the fox news of their day, manipulating the grievances of a gullible populace in order to pursue a course of ultimate personal benefit. swapping out a foreign ruling elite for a home grown one.

or perhaps you're referring to abe lincoln, the great emancipator? the man who in no uncertain terms made it clear through his political campaigning that he did not believe blacks were worthy or even capable of equality, and drew up plans for mass deportation come their "freedom".

your noble forefathers were shrewd political chameleons, performing a constant balancing act of ideology, populism and personal gain. just as they always have been and always will be.
 
Drkirby said:
Its a shame they couldn't come up with a coherent message before starting the protest. All I see is "Capitalism is bad, fix it"


Who We Are

"New York City General Assemblies are an open, participatory and horizontally organized process through which we are building the capacity to constitute ourselves in public as autonomous collective forces within and against the constant crises of our times"

Really?


2nd post seems to catch on to what others here are feeling:

Andrew Munn on September 19, 2011 at 5:16 pm said:

"Awesome, can y’all say who you are in a statement that would make sense to folks who aren’t steeped in anti-authoritarian jargon? Please!! It’ll make you more open and participatory. Great work."
 
tfur said:
Who We Are

"New York City General Assemblies are an open, participatory and horizontally organized process through which we are building the capacity to constitute ourselves in public as autonomous collective forces within and against the constant crises of our times"

Really?


2nd post seems to catch on to what others here are feeling:

Andrew Munn on September 19, 2011 at 5:16 pm said:

"Awesome, can y’all say who you are in a statement that would make sense to folks who aren’t steeped in anti-authoritarian jargon? Please!! It’ll make you more open and participatory. Great work."

That made me laugh when I saw it. It also made me think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
 
ghst said:
did you get your american history MA from disneyland U too?

your noble forefathers were essentially the fox news of their day, manipulating the grievances of a gullible populace in order to pursue a course of ultimate personal benefit. swapping out a foreign ruling elite for a home grown one.

or perhaps you're referring to abe lincoln, the great emancipator? the man who in no uncertain terms made it clear through his political campaigning that he did not believe blacks were worthy or even capable of equality, and drew up plans for mass deportation come their "freedom".

your noble forefathers were shrewd political chameleons, performing a constant balancing act of ideology, populism and personal gain. just as they always have been and always will be.

How many times are you going to edit this?
 
I wonder what some of the reactions from the naysayers here would have been like in the 60's when the Vietnam protests didn't start until almost 10 years after the war began.
 
tfur said:
Who We Are

"New York City General Assemblies are an open, participatory and horizontally organized process through which we are building the capacity to constitute ourselves in public as autonomous collective forces within and against the constant crises of our times"

Really?


2nd post seems to catch on to what others here are feeling:

Andrew Munn on September 19, 2011 at 5:16 pm said:

"Awesome, can y’all say who you are in a statement that would make sense to folks who aren’t steeped in anti-authoritarian jargon? Please!! It’ll make you more open and participatory. Great work."

Haha. Wow, that has to be the most pretentious sounding slogan I've heard of. Sounds like a bunch of unemployed english majors with zero understanding of the financial system.
 
Marleyman said:
So they didn't fight back against tyranny?

Tyranny? The American Revolution had three central issues - that the colonies were being taxed to help pay for their defense, that the colonists did not have direct representation in the British parliament, and that the British had put limits on their colonial expansion by the establishment of Native Reserves. Only one of these three things is a reasonable complaint, the second. There was supposed to be effective representation of their interests in the British parliament (aka "virtual representation"), but that wasn't how it usually ended up. The system needed some measure of reformation, but whether this constituted oppression and tyranny and other emotionally loaded words is definitely something that is open to discussion. In particular, the taxes being levied on the Colonies was very low, and prior to this they had been essentially tax free (the libertarian dream!).
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Tyranny? The American Revolution had three central issues - that the colonies were being taxed to help pay for their defense, that the colonists did not have direct representation in the British parliament, and that the British had put limits on their colonial expansion by the establishment of Native Reserves. Only one of these three things is a reasonable complaint, the second. There was supposed to be effective representation of their interests in the British parliament (aka "virtual representation"), but that wasn't how it usually ended up. The system needed some measure of reformation, but whether this constituted oppression and tyranny and other emotionally loaded words is definitely something that is open to discussion. In particular, the taxes being levied on the Colonies was very low, and prior to this they had been essentially tax free (the libertarian dream!).
One issue with the representation plan (for actual reps in the House of Commons) was the fear of the colonies getting swamped in Parliament and that instructions would take a long time to arrive and when they arrived they would be out of date.

Thank you for giving me a chance to use my History BA. :)
 
ghst said:
did you get your american history MA from disneyland U too?

your noble forefathers were essentially the fox news of their day, manipulating the grievances of a gullible populace in order to pursue a course of ultimate personal benefit. swapping out a foreign ruling elite for a home grown one.

or perhaps you're referring to abe lincoln, the great emancipator? the man who in no uncertain terms made it clear through his political campaigning that he did not believe blacks were worthy or even capable of equality, and drew up plans for mass deportation come their "freedom".

your noble forefathers were shrewd political chameleons, performing a constant balancing act of ideology, populism and personal gain. just as they always have been and always will be.

I like you ghst, but there's enough salt in this post to last every McDonalds fry station in the world through 2015.

I had to perpetuate a tired meme, but I can't find a more fitting rebuttal:

u jelly?
 
ghst said:
did you get your american history MA from disneyland U too?

your noble forefathers were essentially the fox news of their day, manipulating the grievances of a gullible populace in order to pursue a course of ultimate personal benefit. swapping out a foreign ruling elite for a home grown one.

or perhaps you're referring to abe lincoln, the great emancipator? the man who in no uncertain terms made it clear through his political campaigning that he did not believe blacks were worthy or even capable of equality, and drew up plans for mass deportation come their "freedom".

your noble forefathers were shrewd political chameleons, performing a constant balancing act of ideology, populism and personal gain. just as they always have been and always will be.

Saying this is just as stupid as looking at the Founding Fathers as some kind of Gods. While they weren't perfect, a large amount of the founding fathers were very principled men who did care about a democratic society.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Tyranny? The American Revolution had three central issues - that the colonies were being taxed to help pay for their defense, that the colonists did not have direct representation in the British parliament, and that the British had put limits on their colonial expansion by the establishment of Native Reserves. Only one of these three things is a reasonable complaint, the second. There was supposed to be effective representation of their interests in the British parliament (aka "virtual representation"), but that wasn't how it usually ended up. The system needed some measure of reformation, but whether this constituted oppression and tyranny and other emotionally loaded words is definitely something that is open to discussion. In particular, the taxes being levied on the Colonies was very low, and prior to this they had been essentially tax free (the libertarian dream!).

Tyranny was thrown around by many of them, especially with the Stamp Act in 1765.
 
Marleyman said:
I am not for burning down buildings for the fuck of it. My point is that our forefathers had the balls to fight back against oppression and tyranny yet all we do is talk and take no action. I keep thinking of the speech from "Network" as I type this....

mad-as-hell.jpg


A lot of that "fighting" was standing in the heat and getting made fun of by people, like Manos... just sayin Manos, no offense or nuthin.

And then the cops came and brought the dogs and water cannons, etc, then people weren't so bored. But you know...before that lots of you know, standing around with signs.
 
sp3000 said:
Haha. Wow, that has to be the most pretentious sounding slogan I've heard of. Sounds like a bunch of unemployed english majors with zero understanding of the financial system.

Why would something that is very poorly written lead you to this idea ?
 
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