"OCCUPY WALL STREET"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Can you be for the cause, but still laugh at some of the dumb shit the protesters do that are funny?

Hearing someone yell police brutality over a man simply being arrested who was clearly flailing at cops, and women wailing on the ground with less composure than people who have experienced real tragedies such as in the Japan earthquakes is somewhat aggravating to observe whether you're down for the cause or not.
 
J-Rod said:
Can you be for the cause, but still laugh at some of the dumb shit the protesters do that are funny?

Hearing someone yell police brutality over a man simply being arrested who was clearly flailing at cops, and women wailing on the ground with less composure than people who have experienced real tragedies such as in the Japan earthquakes is somewhat aggravating to observe whether you're down for the cause or not.

Don't forget the people comparing themselves to the Arab Spring protests. That one is my favorite.
 
J-Rod said:
Can you be for the cause, but still laugh at some of the dumb shit the protesters do that are funny?

Hearing someone yell police brutality over a man simply being arrested who was clearly flailing at cops, and women wailing on the ground with less composure than people who have experienced real tragedies such as in the Japan earthquakes is somewhat aggravating to observe whether you're down for the cause or not.
That's where I fit in. I'd rather laugh than cry.
 
Deku said:
I'm not sure it's productive to shit on protesting in general. Many good causes was achieved by sitting in a street corner.

Maybe you're just not in favour of any kind of protests, but given the amateur level of the discourse, you can easily call this protest for what it is without actually arguing against the right the protest, which IMHO , is as American as apple pie.

I've said quite a few times I think protesting should be part of any societal movement. However, I've also said I think the people involved should show a little fucking initiative outside of sitting on a street corner. I've never advocated that every single person go out and change their career, but there are tons of other things people could be doing and they're not. I'm not trying to set the bar as high as everyone would like to characterize. If the people out there were donating even a few hours canvassing for reform oriented candidates we'd be far better off. Instead they decided to show off internet memes on a street corner because it was more amusing to them. To me that's insulting to people who actually do things.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
I've said quite a few times I think protesting should be part of any societal movement. However, I've also said I think the people involved should show a little fucking initiative outside of sitting on a street corner. I've never advocated that every single person go out and change their career, but there are tons of other things people could be doing and they're not. I'm not trying to set the bar as high as everyone would like to characterize. If the people out there were donating even a few hours canvassing for reform oriented candidates we'd be far better off. Instead they decided to show off internet memes on a street corner because it was more amusing to them. To me that's insulting to people who actually do things.
But media pays attention when people do shit like this. When media pays attention, politicians follow. Sorry if that insults you but this is a perfectly legitimate way to enact real change.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Rationalization by empty vessel. Hey, this is a free country, whatever you do to ignore your own and others hypocrisy is a okay with us all.

It doesn't change the fact you a hypocrite though.

None of you capitalists have ever played Tetris, right?
 
dave is ok said:
But media pays attention when people do shit like this. When media pays attention, politicians follow. Sorry if that insults you but this is a perfectly legitimate way to enact real change.

That's because normally when things like this happen they are organized by people doing something other than protesting. Or at the very least are professional about organizing protests.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
That's because normally when things like this happen they are organized by people doing something other than protesting. Or at the very least are professional about organizing protests.
Bullshit. Look at Cindy Sheehan
 
chaostrophy said:
None of you capitalists have ever played Tetris, right?

Tetris is actually triumph of the market if you read David Sheff's book on its introduction to the world.

If it wasn't for capitalism, it may still be in a Soviet Lab somewhere unappreciated.
 
What's behind the scorn for the Wall Street protests?

But much of this progressive criticism consists of relatively (ostensibly) well-intentioned tactical and organizational critiques of the protests: there wasn't a clear unified message; it lacked a coherent media strategy; the neo-hippie participants were too off-putting to Middle America; the resulting police brutality overwhelmed the message, etc. etc. That's the high-minded form which most progressive scorn for the protests took: it's just not professionally organized or effective.

Some of these critiques are ludicrous. Does anyone really not know what the basic message is of this protest: that Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power -- in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions -- is destroying financial security for everyone else? Beyond that, criticizing protesters for the prominence of police brutality stories is pure victim-blaming (and, independently, having police brutality highlighted is its own benefit).

Most importantly, very few protest movements enjoy perfect clarity about tactics or command widespread support when they begin; they're designed to spark conversation, raise awareness, attract others to the cause, and build those structural planks as they grow and develop. Dismissing these incipient protests because they lack fully developed, sophisticated professionalization is akin to pronouncing a three-year-old child worthless because he can't read Schopenhauer: those who are actually interested in helping it develop will work toward improving those deficiencies, not harp on them in order to belittle its worth.

That said, some of these organizational/tactical critiques are valid enough as far as they go; the protests could probably be more effective with some more imaginative, concerted and savvy organizational strategies. The problem is these criticisms don't go very far -- at all.
 
Deku said:
Tetris is actually triumph of the market if you read David Sheff's book on its introduction to the world.

If it wasn't for capitalism, it may still be in a Soviet Lab somewhere unappreciated.

If you want us to make excuses none of the products you bought in a capitalist society wouldn't be possible without public roads or sometimes public education. Tetris was created in Soviet Russia so everyone who has played it can't criticize communism. The logic that simplistic and that retarded.
 
People can clown these folks protesting but I think it has the potential to be the spark necesary to light a fire under the collective asses of the apathetic majority of Americans.
 
Marleyman said:
Lawrence O'Donnell on police brutality on Wall Street - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5zmzV5IxpQ&feature=player_embedded

Nothing I've seen could really be described as "brutality." Most of it seems to be within procedure. Most of the protestors have resisted arrest. Not really in line with "peaceful" protest. The cops really shouldn't be the subject of scorn here. It's not like some Wall St. fat cat is calling them down to arrest the people hassling them. The people getting arrested are breaking the law.
 
from article said:
I’m beginning to wonder whether the right to assemble is effectively dead in the US. No one who is a wage slave (which is the overwhelming majority of the population) can afford to have an arrest record, even a misdemeanor, in this age of short job tenures and rising use of background checks.

This is all designed to deter any meaningful challenges to the government and corporate institutions

Uh-huh. Go on.

Anyone who looks at mostly young citizens marching in the street protesting the corruption of Wall Street and the harm it spawns, and decides that what is warranted is mockery and scorn rather than support, is either not seeing things clearly or is motivated by objectives other than the ones being presented.


Okay.

http://soundcloud.com/doctormowinckel/louis-ck-20-year-olds
 
Marleyman said:
People can clown these folks protesting but I think it has the potential to be the spark necesary to light a fire under the collective asses of the apathetic majority of Americans.

Yep its growing and becoming more focused than it was that's for sure plus it's getting much more exposure and celebrity support behind it which is always good.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Nothing I've seen could really be described as "brutality." Most of it seems to be within procedure. Most of the protestors have resisted arrest. Not really in line with "peaceful" protest. The cops really shouldn't be the subject of scorn here. It's not like some Wall St. fat cat is calling them down to arrest the people hassling them. The people getting arrested are breaking the law.


Im glad that you obviously understand constitutional rights.

And I guess you missed the part where a man walked up to people without any provocation and pepper sprayed them. Cops don't get to do that. Sorry
 
Cmagus said:
Yep its growing and becoming more focused than it was that's for sure plus it's getting much more exposure and celebrity support behind it which is always good.

Who the fuck cares? Why the hell isn't there a professionally organized rally in DC that isn't a fucking excuse for 20-somethings to dress up as storm troopers? Give me a substantive protest and I'll be there. Why the hell do I get this shit while the Tea Party gets politically active speakers to come and pander to them? I want Paul Krugman and Harry Reid on the Mall explaining what can be done. I want something organized by people who actually know some law. I want the non-profs commenting on Dodd-Frank regulations to come out and organize support.
 
Lead Based Paint said:
Im glad that you obviously understand constitutional rights.

And I guess you missed the part where a man walked up to people without any provocation and pepper sprayed them. Cops don't get to do that. Sorry

Didn't see that. Sounds worse than most of what I've seen. Though obviously the use of pepper spray isn't a violation of rights in and of itself...
 
Riddick said:
If you want us to make excuses none of the products you bought in a capitalist society wouldn't be possible without public roads or sometimes public education. Tetris was created in Soviet Russia so everyone who has played it can't criticize communism. The logic that simplistic and that retarded.

I'm just pointing out that Tetris would be the last thing to bring up if you want to talk about capitalists being hypocritical or what not. It's capitlalism that made Tetris what it is.

I think it's a fair point to mention that anti-capitalists using designer goods is hypocritical, kind of like that iconic 1999 seattle protest where an anti-capitalist protester was kicking down a Nike sign with Nikes shoes on.

In anycase, I'm willing to allow that a lot of these young people may not be politically mature enough to form an opinion of capitalism and may be bangwagoneering and many may in fact be protesting other issues unrelated to anti-capitlism.

That said, since this discussion is between avowed leftists and capitalists the thought experiment is valid.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Who the fuck cares? Why the hell isn't there a professionally organized rally in DC that isn't a fucking excuse for 20-somethings to dress up as storm troopers? Give me a substantive protest and I'll be there. Why the hell do I get this shit while the Tea Party gets politically active speakers to come and pander to them? I want Paul Krugman and Harry Reid on the Mall explaining what can be done. I want something organized by people who actually know some law. I want the non-profs commenting on Dodd-Frank regulations to come out and organize support.

Well as much as you may not care it brings more exposure to the cause that the mainstream media wasn't giving.Also there are many people down there who do know the law and know what they are talking about but again all you see is the few people that media decides to single out to make the protest look bad.Do you honestly think the media is going to share a fair view on this protest considering the networks are run by people who have ties to wall street.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Give me a substantive protest and I'll be there. Why the hell do I get this shit while the Tea Party gets politically active speakers to come and pander to them? I want Paul Krugman and Harry Reid on the Mall explaining what can be done. I want something organized by people who actually know some law. I want the non-profs commenting on Dodd-Frank regulations to come out and organize support.

It is growing to that, at least I think it is.
 
Cmagus said:
Well as much as you may not care it brings more exposure to the cause that the mainstream media wasn't giving.Also there are many people down there who do know the law and know what they are talking about but again all you see is the few people that media decides to single out to make the protest look bad.Do you honestly think the media is going to share a fair view on this protest considering the networks are run by people who have ties to wall street.

Seriously the tin-foil hats just make everything so much worse.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Who the fuck cares? Why the hell isn't there a professionally organized rally in DC that isn't a fucking excuse for 20-somethings to dress up as storm troopers? Give me a substantive protest and I'll be there. Why the hell do I get this shit while the Tea Party gets politically active speakers to come and pander to them? I want Paul Krugman and Harry Reid on the Mall explaining what can be done. I want something organized by people who actually know some law. I want the non-profs commenting on Dodd-Frank regulations to come out and organize support.
If one of these ever occurs, be sure to let me know about it; I'd go to it, too.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Seriously the tin-foil hats just make everything so much worse.

That's going to happen in any gathering and i agree it can make it look stupid at times.It is still early I can't see this ending anytime soon and it is gathering steam those who came out as a joke or to hold stupid signs are slowly phasing out and it's becoming more serious.These things take time and you know and there are alot of smart and determined people down there.This protest might not bring the results they want in the end but it's a start and it's a start that can always lead to something else.

You guys are getting fucked hard in the United States so hard I am surprised something like this hasn't happened earlier. Question is do you not support it cause you see a guy with a funny sign on tv or do you help possibly get something moving that with enough support could bring changes to the everyday people of the US who are getting screwed, the teachers, the students, the unemployed.This may all seem cheesy but all change has to start somewhere and it isn't going to come from your government or president.
 
Deku said:
Tetris is actually triumph of the market if you read David Sheff's book on its introduction to the world.

If it wasn't for capitalism, it may still be in a Soviet Lab somewhere unappreciated.

Exactly. The story of Tetris is like a libertarian's wet dream. An idea so good, the shackles and confines of the socialist system couldn't handle it, and numerous enterprising businesspeople were willing to travel across the world to rescue it.
 
lawblob said:
Exactly. The story of Tetris is like a libertarian's wet dream. An idea so good, the shackles and confines of the socialist system couldn't handle it, and numerous enterprising businesspeople were willing to travel across the world to rescue it.

Leave the libertarians out of this.
:P
 
remnant said:
Why? No seriously why? Why can we only be critical of corporations?
90% of what you wrote makes no sense.

None of them want to "Pour more subsidies into programs like fannie mae and freddie mac so people can treat their homes like ATM machines", whatever that means. And "Give more money to the Sallie Mae's of the world so more kids enter into heavy debt when leaving college" is nonsensical.

There is a difference between passing a regulation that "closes of lines of credit" and passing a regulation that makes it so the finance industry doesn't bankrupt millions of people again.

Who, in your opinion is "pouring millions of dollars into risky loans that blow up in our face"? Who is at fault for those loans?
 
dave is ok said:
90% of what you wrote makes no sense.

None of them want to "Pour more subsidies into programs like fannie mae and freddie mac so people can treat their homes like ATM machines", whatever that means.
Really? i don't see a single sign there critical of our government policy of pushing homeownership at all costs. I don't see or hear any protest about the loose monetary policy of the early 2000's or the subsidization of homes in the 90's we had that directly contributed to house prices outpacing inflation.

dave is ok said:
And "Give more money to the Sallie Mae's of the world so more kids enter into heavy debt when leaving college" is nonsensical.
No it's reality. College tutition and the loans we have to borrow to pay for it has risen because of the heavy subsidies and bankruptcy protection we have given to creditors of student loans, largest being Sallie Mae. Any of those young adults protesting against that?

dave is ok said:
There is a difference between passing a regulation that "closes of lines of credit" and passing a regulation that makes it so the finance industry doesn't bankrupt millions of people again.
And again are any of them arguing against bills like Dodd-Frank that have had negative impact on lines of credit. Do they even have an alternative. Do they understand finance laws at all?

dave is ok said:
Who, in your opinion is "pouring millions of dollars into risky loans that blow up in our face"? Who is at fault for those loans?
Who is the problem? The gambler or the casino that feeds the gambler. This is the problem right here, and why this protest is so stupid. It's not as simple as "the banks are the bad guys."
 
Quixzlizx said:
I'm rooting for Wall Street, if a country whose policy is guided by these protesters is the alternative.


it's 'an' alternative, but do you really think these would be the people making the policies? probably not. that, and it's not like that's the only thing that would spawn out of this. and really, just for shits and giggles: you don't even know what the hypothetical policy they come up with would be, and yet you criticize it beforehand. what the fuck? it could be great for all you know

and either way, good quote posted earlier in the page. even if these protests aren't the best organized, if they're bringing the bullshit that's happened to attention of many people that weren't aware of it, that's a win, regardless.
 
bounchfx said:
and really, just for shits and giggles: you don't even know what the hypothetical policy they come up with would be, and yet you criticize it beforehand. what the fuck? it could be great for all you know

Veggie pizza for all


bounchfx said:
and either way, good quote posted earlier in the page. even if these protests aren't the best organized, if they're bringing the bullshit that's happened to attention of many people that weren't aware of it, that's a win, regardless.

Well, I for one am glad these folks brought the Financial Crisis of 2008 to my attention. If not for them, I'd have never have known it happened.
 
Enron said:
haha

They even took the picture with Hipstamatic for iphone. Or with an actual vintage camera.

I'm thinking maybe it was just unConstitutionally bright and they're using a shitty liberal camera. Or maybe a fine layer of hippie scum obscuring the lens?


Anyway, I protest blog from my post-it note pad, connected to my Beowulf cluster of overclocked 486s via actual fucking clouds. Purple ones.
 
remnant said:
Really? i don't see a single sign there critical of our government policy of pushing homeownership at all costs. I don't see or hear any protest about the loose monetary policy of the early 2000's or the subsidization of homes in the 90's we had that directly contributed to house prices outpacing inflation.

No it's reality. College tutition and the loans we have to borrow to pay for it has risen because of the heavy subsidies and bankruptcy protection we have given to creditors of student loans, largest being Sallie Mae. Any of those young adults protesting against that?

And again are any of them arguing against bills like Dodd-Frank that have had negative impact on lines of credit. Do they even have an alternative. Do they understand finance laws at all?


Who is the problem? The gambler or the casino that feeds the gambler. This is the problem right here, and why this protest is so stupid. It's not as simple as "the banks are the bad guys."
Get back to me when you understand the actual causes of the crash, high tuition and stringent lending and not the conservative propaganda versions.
 
Those who lived beyond their means certianly need to shoulder some of the blame.

That said, govenment policy and leadership is pretty spotty here, when you had Bush post 9/11 encouraging Americans to spend to do their part in the war on terror.
 
dave is ok said:
Get back to me when you understand the actual causes of the crash, high tuition and stringent lending and not the conservative propaganda versions.

Those ARE some of the "actual causes of the crash", whether you are conservative or liberal.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Didn't see that. Sounds worse than most of what I've seen. Though obviously the use of pepper spray isn't a violation of rights in and of itself...


Another surprise, yes it is. Not that it should be surprise that is.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Who the fuck cares? Why the hell isn't there a professionally organized rally in DC that isn't a fucking excuse for 20-somethings to dress up as storm troopers? Give me a substantive protest and I'll be there.


Oh. They just don't look professional enough for you. They aren't professional demonstrators and don't have a bunch of policy wonks on CNN talking for them, so they're worthless. They just need to act more "respectable" then? You're just waiting for Jon Stewart to show up and offer you some face time huh? Why didn't you say so earlier?(Oh, you're bullshitting. Never mind.)

You mean..someone with money, some company to come sponsor the demonstrations like they did for the Tea Party or some political rally backed by a national broadcasting corporation? That's a key difference. These are people fighting against Wall Street, so where are you going to find a corporate backer for that? That's like asking McDonalds to fund protests to outlaw all unhealthy food. Or a rich guy is just gonna be super generous (And make no mistake, there are people with green backing this OWS protest, maybe just not publicly) with his billions? They're out there but they don't put their names on the line for just any old protest.
 
Lead Based Paint said:
Another surprise, yes it is. Not that it should be surprise that is.

To be clear: You are saying that using pepper spray is a violation of civil rights regardless of context? Is that a correct representation of what you're saying?

I ask because I'm not sure that's what you're saying. If it is you are pretty clearly wrong. I'm not saying pepper spray CAN'T be a violation of civil rights, but it can also be within the law to use as well. I can't speak to the incident you mentioned because I haven't seen it.

Oh. They just don't look professional enough for you. They aren't professional demonstrators and don't have a bunch of policy wonks on CNN talking for them, so they're worthless. They just need to act more "respectable" then? You're just waiting for Jon Stewart to show up and offer you some face time huh? Why didn't you say so earlier?(Oh, you're bullshitting. Never mind.)

You mean..someone with money, some company to come sponsor the demonstrations like they did for the Tea Party or some political rally backed by a national broadcasting corporation? That's a key difference. These are people fighting against Wall Street, so where are you going to find a corporate backer for that? That's like asking McDonalds to fund protests to outlaw all unhealthy food. Or a rich guy is just gonna be super generous (And make no mistake, there are people with green backing this OWS protest, maybe just not publicly) with his billions? They're out there but they don't put their names on the line for just any old protest.

Say what you want, but respectability means something. If the Tea Party can manage it so can the left. It's pretty pathetic when your demonstration is sadder than a tea party rally. And for the record, no I don't want John Stewart. I want someone who is working everyday to make things better, not put on a comedy show. Get me some real liberals, not a bunch of kids who are more interested in dressing up than in doing something.

Also, give up on the "corporations are evil" thing. Plenty of wealthy people and corporations donate to liberal politics.
 
remnant said:
And their solution is what? We eliminate corporations? Pass regulations that close off lines of credit? Pass more laws that push union workers up by pushing non-union workers down? Pour millions of dollars into risky loans that blow up in our face? Pour more subsidies into programs like fannie mae and freddie mac so people can treat their homes like ATM machines. Give more money to the Sallie Mae's of the world so more kids enter into heavy debt when leaving college?

This response has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. Perhaps you meant to quote someone else and clicked on the wrong post.

Quixzlizx said:
This is a giant cop-out answer. So people who try to lessen their environmental footprint shouldn't bother to do anything at all unless they can completely eliminate their potential impact on the planet? Purchasing unnecessary luxury goods helps perpetuate consumer culture in a way that merely obtaining basic food and shelter does not.

I believe the discussion was about cell phones and computers (I apologize if I'm misremembering). In that context, those devices are necessary for communication and organization - vital for a successful protest, mind you. I don't think there's really a difference between buying a cheap off-brand cell phone and netbook versus buying an iphone and a Macbook. I understand your point about basic needs versus luxury goods. But I think in terms of which brands you choose, there's not much of a difference from a political point of view.

ToxicAdam said:
Sounds like a good defense a libertarian would make.

Here's a story you might gain some inspiration from.

I understand where you're coming from, and I think you've raised some good points about the double standards applied to the tea party. I still don't think people who are against capitalism need to exit society, and I definitely do not believe that you need to do so because you oppose Wall Street deregulation and gambling.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
To be clear: You are saying that using pepper spray is a violation of civil rights regardless of context? Is that a correct representation of what you're saying?

I"m talking about in the context of the fucking video that you refuse to watch like that makes you ok to post stupid shit.

And that context is "Getting pepper-sprayed without any prior "warning" or reasonable suspicion that she was doing something to warrant being pepper sprayed"

Enough context?

brucewaynegretzky said:
Also, give up on the "corporations are evil" thing. Plenty of wealthy people and corporations donate to liberal politics.


Also, give up on the

"Since a couple a noteworthy corporation CEOs have foundations and charities and big flashy donating parties, I believe all corporations are just the bees knees and any attempt at bringing it up must be met with denial like the idea is absurd." Schtick

It's time to grow up.
 
Deku said:
That said, since this discussion is between avowed leftists and capitalists the thought experiment is valid.

I still don't understand why marching against Wall Street criminal activity makes one an anti-capitalist.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
To be clear: You are saying that using pepper spray is a violation of civil rights regardless of context? Is that a correct representation of what you're saying?

I ask because I'm not sure that's what you're saying. If it is you are pretty clearly wrong. I'm not saying pepper spray CAN'T be a violation of civil rights, but it can also be within the law to use as well. I can't speak to the incident you mentioned because I haven't seen it.



Say what you want, but respectability means something. If the Tea Party can manage it so can the left. It's pretty pathetic when your demonstration is sadder than a tea party rally. And for the record, no I don't want John Stewart. I want someone who is working everyday to make things better, not put on a comedy show. Get me some real liberals, not a bunch of kids who are more interested in dressing up than in doing something.

Also, give up on the "corporations are evil" thing. Plenty of wealthy people and corporations donate to liberal politics.

You can stay on the sidelines then, bubba, and root against the protesters then, for all the good that you'll do. You'll be surprised, probably, that millions of people all around the world see those protestors as worthy of respect. They didn't fail the superficiality test of judging the protesters by their faces or what they were wearing or making hipster jokes about their ironic signs. Some people understand that we're getting back into the stride, that we're relearning how to do this fight the power thing. We won and we're still losing, so we have obviously got to get back out there, and either it's gonna happen, or things are going to get better. Either way it's going to happen without you, so get back to making noise and trying to be noticed and protesters will get back to paying you no mind. You gotta be trolling to mention the tea parties without mentioning the billionaires and millionaires paying to charter bus and fly those characters all around the country.

re scarecrow
Corporations are businesses, money making enterprises, capital and productivity generators, the predators they were bred to be. They aren't good, or evil, but their actions can have good or evil consequences, and their directors and operators can have good or yes, even arguably evil intent. But in the face of seeking higher profits, most will eschew all morality instead for scruples, ethics, and practicality. But when they get rid of ethics and scruples and only look at what's practical, that's what you have in this situation. People simplify it all and call it evil. But you knew that
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom