"OCCUPY WALL STREET"

Status
Not open for further replies.
AiTM said:
No they are just hypocrites who love it when it benefits them

Owning a good in a capitalist economy and being opposed to capitalism is no more hypocritical than having a job in a capitalist economy and being opposed to capitalism. And attributing goods produced in capitalist economy to capitalism itself is utterly stupid. It's like you all believe that wealth cannot be produced but for capitalism.

A person who opposes capitalism does not oppose it because it produces wealth. They oppose it because of how it exploits the people who actually produce wealth through their labor.

The people suggesting that people cannot oppose or be critical of capitalism if they own something are the idiots who deserve mocking.
 
JzeroT1437 said:
x38hox.jpg


And the protesters even had a library and peace crane booth set up:

Is this when we play "Count the Macbooks"?
 
empty vessel said:
Owning a good in a capitalist economy and being opposed to capitalism is no more hypocritical than having a job in a capitalist economy and being opposed to capitalism. And attributing goods produced in capitalist economy to capitalism itself is utterly stupid. It's like you all believe that wealth cannot be produced but for capitalism.

A person who opposes capitalism does not oppose it because it produces wealth. They oppose it because of how it exploits the people who actually produce wealth through their labor.

The people suggesting that people cannot oppose or be critical of capitalism if they own something are the idiots who deserve mocking.

Rationalization by empty vessel. Hey, this is a free country, whatever you do to ignore your own and others hypocrisy is a okay with us all.

It doesn't change the fact you a hypocrite though.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Rationalization by empty vessel. Hey, this is a free country, whatever you do to ignore your own and others hypocrisy is a okay with us all.

It doesn't change the fact you a hypocrite though.

Are you suggesting that it's hypocritical to purchase goods and services in a capitalist society if you oppose capitalism? If so, how would one eat or find shelter without being a hypocrite?
 
kame-sennin said:
Are you suggesting that it's hypocritical to purchase goods and services in a capitalist society if you oppose capitalism?
It is when those good's are high end luxury consumer goods. More so why are people complaining about oppression and lack of openness using iOS?

If so, how would one eat or find shelter without being a hypocrite?
Ted_Kaczynski_Unabomber-cabin.jpg
 
Dartastic said:

This part deals with what's been discussed in this thread regarding the lack of organization:

This rubbernecking style of journalism is particularly dangerous right now because it amounts to criticizing a burning house for the color of its curtains. The curtains might be brash, ostentatious and completely unhelpful in maintaining the overall flow of the home’s ambiance, but it’s perhaps not the most pertinent detail of the moment. Here’s a more pressing question: Why are the people Bellafante described in her article the ones left behind?

The teargas aside starts to tap into something important: how the police state and its domestic weaponry and bureaucratic assist with the needs for permits to do anything in protests have successfully crippled the activism community. Activists are afraid. You can smell it in their midst. They talk about the constant presence of agent provocateurs and undercovers at every protest. They share battle stories of being abused by the police, like being tazed or held so long in makeshift police pens that they had to defecate in their clothing. And these are the brave ones that still show up to the protests.

It’s not mere paranoia. We know for a fact that the FBI monitors activism groups, and this practice reached a frenzied level during the Bush administration years. These intimidation practices continue under President Obama in the form of raids.

Now, imagine you have a job you can’t get time off from, or kids. Are you going to risk that precious job security, or the safety of your children, to go protest in an event that may—if you’re really lucky—get some dismissive coverage in the New York Times?

There was a time when individuals cast aside those fears because they had union-protected jobs, and unions organized events with tens of thousands of confidence-inspiring fellow members in attendance. While those events do still occur, they’re a rarity these days as union membership dwindles, the privatization of the country continues and the establishment media still don’t grant them fair coverage when they do occur. Not one of the young people I spoke to at the Occupy Wall Street protest said they were union members. Bellafante is right in the sense that they are scattered, lost and leaderless, but she never explores why that’s the case.

While the left loses the valuable organizational mechanism of unions, the right has gained corporate masters like the Koch brothers to disseminate millions of dollars into astroturfing campaigns to organize and destroy on their behalf. While the left makes signs, the right has already deployed troupes to scream at town hall events.

These are the kinds of massive oppositional forces activists find themselves facing these days: an incredibly oppressive police state and a corporate cash monster bearing down on them from the right. Meanwhile, their union support army is either in retreat or preoccupied fighting other battles on other fronts in Wisconsin or Ohio, or one of the other forty-eight states where anti-union legislation was introduced this year courtesy of ALEC, a front group that serves as proxy for corporate interests.

Instead of bemoaning the fact that protesters haven’t arrived in matching uniforms with a coherent PowerPoint presentation, these are the issues we should be addressing.
 
cooljeanius said:
Gosh, you'd think being a professor and all, he'd know about the proper use of the subjunctive mood...

because that's clearly the important thing here. never mind the message itself or it's meaning
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
It is when those good's are high end luxury consumer goods.

I'm not sure why the quality or cost of the product should matter. You're either participating in a capitalist system or you're not.

Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
http://www.singularitysymposium.com/images/Ted_Kaczynski_Unabomber-cabin.jpg

ToxicAdam said:

I honestly appreciate getting an answer to my question. However, your suggestions seem to impose an unrealistic standard of ideological purity on those who oppose capitalism. Living in a cabin or eating out of the garbage is not an option for many, nor is it a particularly healthy lifestyle. I think that if someone doesn't agree with a system that they are born into, they can challenge that system without separating themselves from it in such a way that it would destroy their quality of life (which I imagine would hurt their ability to protest and organize).
 
Americans in general need to get back into the culture of organizing and fighting for rights. We see that the clock can be turned back on us, and we can actually lose what we thought had been gained. We've been too long out of practice, and some of us thought we'd never actually have to do it. It's getting to be that a vote isn't worth what it used to be, so the only things we have left are our constitutional rights to express, organize, and demonstrate. This is more like a practice run. Lefties stretching their legs. People are watching the scene and the reaction. Serious protests will definitely up the ante and you'll see more homogeneous imagery. Of course, more people means higher stakes. If Barack Obama loses, expect it. Hell, if he wins we might still see it.

You can object to capitalism but still participate in your local economy without sacrificing your principles. Most people are against the exploitative and dehumanizing aspects of large scale capitalism, but wouldn't at all mind it on smaller scale. Patronize your local family owned shops and stores, use your co-ops, recycle your money back into the community and if everyone around you did the same, communities would be flush with funds and there would be a stronger economy. And that's part of the issue. People wanting things fixed are marginalized as being anti-thing. We wanted America out of the wars and got accused of being anti-American. It's a tactic dishonest and insincere love to use and they excel at it.
 
The article above forgets to mention the internet, which is spreading the word. The problem with physical protests is the crimes Wall St, in particular Goldman & Sachs, have been committing are impossible to explain on a piece of cardboard nailed to a piece of wood. It's going to take time for everyone to understand what they have done.

The real challenge for the left is explaining how Wall St are in control of the government mechanisms that are in place to prevent them from rigging the market place.

The great thing about the internet is you can exist in that ethereal plane as an avatar. There's no threat to your children or to your job and you can speak to the world unhindered by money and status.

Look at the number of 'Truthers' out there. If you can redirect all that energy into the real conspiracy, Wall St's monopoly on the economy and the laws that bind it, we can actually affect 'Change'.
 
Dartastic said:
I really like how so many people in this thread are more interested in being assholes than actually thinking about ways to fix our horribly broken economy and government.

Fuck you, I got mine. The New American Way.
 
akira28 said:
People wanting things fixed are marginalized as being anti-thing. We wanted America out of the wars and got accused of being anti-American. It's a tactic dishonest and insincere love to use and they excel at it.

That's a good point. I own my own business, but I still support these protests. I'm not against the concept of markets, I'm just mad that the people on Wall Street donated money to congress and the President, then asked those politicians to remove the regulations that would prevent an economic collapse, then took part in now-deregulated pension fund gambling, broke a few laws that they couldn't get rid of, drove up the price of oil to $100 a barrel with their gambling which drove up the price of food causing people in third world countries to literally starve to death, then crashed the economy, then got bailed about with taxpayer money by the politicians they donated money to, then used that money to give themselves bonuses, and none of them went to jail. I think that's worth protesting without completely hating the concept of capitalism.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Really? REALLY? Now you just look even more like an idiot, if that wasn't apparent already.

kame-sennin said:
That's a good point. I own my own business, but I still support these protests. I'm not against the concept of markets, I'm just mad that the people on Wall Street donated money to congress and the President, then asked those politicians to remove the regulations that would prevent an economic collapse, then took part in now-deregulated pension fund gambling, broke a few laws that they couldn't get rid of, drove up the price of oil to $100 a barrel with their gambling which drove up the price of food causing people in third world countries to literally starve to death, then crashed the economy, then got bailed about with taxpayer money by the politicians they donated money to, then used that money to give themselves bonuses, and none of them went to jail. I think that's worth protesting without completely hating the concept of capitalism.
Great post.

P.S. For those people who may have been rooting for that idiot who said "STUDY FINANCE, YAY, THAT'LL FIX THINGS" I just would like to say that I'm getting my MBA right now. I am in fact, studying finance. Merely "studying finance" won't fix shit.
 
Dartastic said:
P.S. For those people who may have been rooting for that idiot who said "STUDY FINANCE, YAY, THAT'LL FIX THINGS" I just would like to say that I'm getting my MBA right now. I am in fact, studying finance. Merely "studying finance" won't fix shit.

Probably because most people who study finance aren't doing so out of altruism.
 
Manos... you've been posting some of the most incredible strawmen I've ever seen.

It really is amazing. Taken at face value, yes being a part of capitalism while disliking it is hypocritical. To that I say... so fucking what?

People that hate government join it all the time. I'd bet almost all the people bitching about the nanny state, have used government run programs and facilities at least once. More than a few probably live off of them.

Live in the world you're given, and fighting to change it seems to be a smarter policy than sitting back and going "Lawl! Hypocrats!"

But thanks for the laugh anyway.
 
kame-sennin said:
That's a good point. I own my own business, but I still support these protests. I'm not against the concept of markets, I'm just mad that the people on Wall Street donated money to congress and the President, then asked those politicians to remove the regulations that would prevent an economic collapse, then took part in now-deregulated pension fund gambling, broke a few laws that they couldn't get rid of, drove up the price of oil to $100 a barrel with their gambling which drove up the price of food causing people in third world countries to literally starve to death, then crashed the economy, then got bailed about with taxpayer money by the politicians they donated money to, then used that money to give themselves bonuses, and none of them went to jail. I think that's worth protesting without completely hating the concept of capitalism.
And their solution is what? We eliminate corporations? Pass regulations that close off lines of credit? Pass more laws that push union workers up by pushing non-union workers down? Pour millions of dollars into risky loans that blow up in our face? Pour more subsidies into programs like fannie mae and freddie mac so people can treat their homes like ATM machines. Give more money to the Sallie Mae's of the world so more kids enter into heavy debt when leaving college?

Yeah I'm sorry but laying the blame for every problem in america at the hands of corporations, markets, capatalism, etc etc isn't anything more than a sophomoric argument to me. What is this besides a larger version of socialist rallies you see on college campuses?

You can object to capitalism but still participate in your local economy without sacrificing your principles. Most people are against the exploitative and dehumanizing aspects of large scale capitalism, but wouldn't at all mind it on smaller scale. Patronize your local family owned shops and stores, use your co-ops, recycle your money back into the community and if everyone around you did the same, communities would be flush with funds and there would be a stronger economy. And that's part of the issue. People wanting things fixed are marginalized as being anti-thing. We wanted America out of the wars and got accused of being anti-American. It's a tactic dishonest and insincere love to use and they excel at it.
Not they don't. Look at any amazon thread.
 
Holy shit msnbc!

Good on you. Jesus Christ too cops really are turning into power wielding scumbags.

You know what the worst part is? These are the ones on camera; I sure hope I can fix this when I am older.
 
I cannot be critical of everything that WALL STREET stands for if i own a smartphone or a laptop now? Only when i move to a cabin deep in the forest i am allowed to voice my opinion on these matters, unless it is to declare my love for WALL STREET?

By this reasoning, I can tell that the Hans of fate has been in the thread. I guess that also means that we'll never really find out why it makes me a hypocrite.
 
you know that ipad that you mockers also have?

well, it was made using slave labor. apple's factories are so bad that there's a suicide net around the building. do you support that?

oh, you don't? then why the fuck did you buy it, hypocrite?
 
Thunder Monkey said:
People that hate government join it all the time. I'd bet almost all the people bitching about the nanny state, have used government run programs and facilities at least once. More than a few probably live off of them.

People who hate government don't join it, people who SAY they hate government as a ploy to get elected do.

There is a significant difference.
 
milkyjay20 said:
you know that ipad that you mockers also have?

well, it was made using slave labor. apple's factories are so bad that there's a suicide net around the building. do you support that?

oh, you don't? then why the fuck did you buy it, hypocrite?
Again, really dumb argument.

Right on par with "Oh, you hate government? Then why do you vote?! Hypocrite."

At this point in time I'm not sure you could buy any electronic made under quality working conditions. But that's capitalism for you. If your government won't let you abuse their citizens, another will be more than happy to.

You should probably get off the internet anyway. The government helped create it.

Margalis said:
People who hate government don't join it, people who SAY they hate government as a ploy to get elected do.

There is a significant difference.
Tell that to Ron Paul supporters.
 
I don't have that much sympathy for this protest because I don't really see what they are doing this for other than wanting to be seen as part of some sort of movement "against" things that almost nobody likes. But mocking them for being vegetarian and wanting the police to be brutal to them and move them on because it's fun watching the man beat up smelly hippies? Yeah, whatever.

If things start getting much worse in America you will be praying that there are people around who can set up a dignified well ordered protests because the alternatives are worse. The police might have to do real work instead of spraying mace on people who are standing still and don't have any fight in them.
 
milkyjay20 said:
lol that's the point.

it's their argument turned against them.
Whose argument turned against who?

I'm saying it's as dumb as saying "You can't vote/use government facilities/government programs if you don't like government."

Both leave you living in a cottage in the woods. Neither is applicable for modern day life. You still have the right to bitch about the stupidity you see in both though. Does that make them hypocrites? To a degree yes.

It's also hypocritical to bitch about drug users while drinking a beer. Bitching about big government while on disability. Bitching about world hunger while eating a four course meal.

We're all hypocrites and it doesn't create a meaningful dialogue when your argument is centered on that.
 
Thunder Monkey said:
Whose argument turned against who?

I'm saying it's as dumb as saying "You can't vote/use government facilities/government programs if you don't like government."

Both leave you living in a cottage in the woods. Neither is applicable for modern day life. You still have the right to bitch about the stupidity you see in both though. Does that make them hypocrites? To a degree yes.

It's also hypocritical to bitch about drug users while drinking a beer. Bitching about big government while on disability. Bitching about world hunger while eating a four course meal.

We're all hypocrites and it doesn't create a meaningful dialogue when your argument is centered on that.

that's pretty much what i'm saying and you're completely correct.

i should've just said "that's their argument."
 
kame-sennin said:
I'm not sure why the quality or cost of the product should matter. You're either participating in a capitalist system or you're not.

This is a giant cop-out answer. So people who try to lessen their environmental footprint shouldn't bother to do anything at all unless they can completely eliminate their potential impact on the planet? Purchasing unnecessary luxury goods helps perpetuate consumer culture in a way that merely obtaining basic food and shelter does not.
 
bounchfx said:
because that's clearly the important thing here. never mind the message itself or it's meaning
I agree with the message and its meaning, I'm just a grammar Nazi, and the subjunctive is one of my pet peeves
 
Jangocube said:
Keep up the good fight protesters.

Even if your cause is slightly misguided, it's nice to see people standing up against the scum of society.

So, they are protesting the Boston Red Sox?
 
remnant said:
And their solution is what? We eliminate corporations? Pass regulations that close off lines of credit? Pass more laws that push union workers up by pushing non-union workers down? Pour millions of dollars into risky loans that blow up in our face? Pour more subsidies into programs like fannie mae and freddie mac so people can treat their homes like ATM machines. Give more money to the Sallie Mae's of the world so more kids enter into heavy debt when leaving college?

Yeah I'm sorry but laying the blame for every problem in america at the hands of corporations, markets, capatalism, etc etc isn't anything more than a sophomoric argument to me.
Possible the stupidest thing I've ever read.
 
cooljeanius said:
Gosh, you'd think being a professor and all, he'd know about the proper use of the subjunctive mood...

"Was" is a perfectly acceptable expression of the subjunctive mood in informal speech. Amusing to see Manos, of all people, getting picky about grammar.
 
kame-sennin said:
I think that if someone doesn't agree with a system that they are born into, they can challenge that system without separating themselves from it in such a way that it would destroy their quality of life (which I imagine would hurt their ability to protest and organize).

Sounds like a good defense a libertarian would make.

Here's a story you might gain some inspiration from.
 
The arguments over the mobile / macbooks are stupid. They're not capitalistic symbols of extreme wealth they are necessary items to be part of society/work/communicate in the year 2011. How much are they? $1000? Che Guevara wore a rolex watch for God's sake.
 
travisbickle said:
The arguments over the mobile / macbooks are stupid. They're not capitalistic symbols of extreme wealth they are necessary items to be part of society/work/communicate in the year 2011. How much are they? $1000? Che Guevara wore a rolex watch for God's sake.

A Rolex that he took off of one of his victims, mind you.

A 2000 dollar macbook, a 700 dollar DSLR and a 300 dollar iphone for which you pay 1000+ a year to use are necessary items to communicate in the year 2011?
 
Enron said:
A 2000 dollar macbook

Macbooks can be had at $999.

But if these smelly hipsters had Windows notebooks and Android phones it would be just fine, because Apple is evil, amirite?
 
travisbickle said:
The arguments over the mobile / macbooks are stupid. They're not capitalistic symbols of extreme wealth they are necessary items to be part of society/work/communicate in the year 2011. How much are they? $1000? Che Guevara wore a rolex watch for God's sake.

There are much cheaper alteratives to both items you mentioned.

The criticism isn't that they have a MacBook, but because it is a MacBook.

And Che Guevara is a crimal scum that's worshiped by well off middle class kids because he's like the Al Capone of their political navite. What an awful argument.
 
Dartastic said:
P.S. For those people who may have been rooting for that idiot who said "STUDY FINANCE, YAY, THAT'LL FIX THINGS" I just would like to say that I'm getting my MBA right now. I am in fact, studying finance. Merely "studying finance" won't fix shit.

Well I'm that idiot and this still doesn't change the fact that if people really wanted to do things they'd donate time to organizations trying to influence regulatory policy. If it bothers you so much why not make it your career? If its because you're too lazy to do anything other than sit around on a street corner don't expect me to take you seriously.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Well I'm that idiot and this still doesn't change the fact that if people really wanted to do things they'd donate time to organizations trying to influence regulatory policy. If it bothers you so much why not make it your career? If its because you're too lazy to do anything other than sit around on a street corner don't expect me to take you seriously.

I'm not sure it's productive to shit on protesting in general. Many good causes was achieved by sitting in a street corner.

Maybe you're just not in favour of any kind of protests, but given the amateur level of the discourse, you can easily call this protest for what it is without actually arguing against the right the protest, which IMHO , is as American as apple pie.
 
brucewaynegretzky said:
Well I'm that idiot and this still doesn't change the fact that if people really wanted to do things they'd donate time to organizations trying to influence regulatory policy. If it bothers you so much why not make it your career? If its because you're too lazy to do anything other than sit around on a street corner don't expect me to take you seriously.

Maybe people already dedicated themselves to something they love but can't succeed at it now because the economy is dying and they can't find work. Maybe their only outlet is protest so that people like yourself can use the public outcry as yet another brick in the foundation toward regulatory reform. Maybe, rather than expecting everyone to act in unison in one specific way towards one specific end, people in this country should begin working towards a goal of making things better for all classes and not struggling to ensure things remain shitty for everyone who isn't already successful.

I live in NYC, I live in a 1 br apartment by myself on 45k/year, I consider myself moderately successful. I live paycheck to paycheck, more or less, but I'm getting by without the desperate need for credit or loans. Many people in this country are not. It would be easy for me to say "Shit on those people, I'll get by", but that would make me a horrible person. It would 1) overlook the need to help the majority of people, 2) overlook the likelihood that, in the near future, as a relatively new employee in the professional publishing workforce I will likely be unemployed myself, and 3) establish myself as a self-interested turd of a human being with little concern for the world around me.

People in Great Britain rioted over their poor economy recently. People in America are protesting. This isn't some minor issue experienced by a select poorly informed and economically-incapable few. This is a global issue suffered by a majority of people.

I don't understand the mentality of "EVERYONE SHOULD STUDY ECONOMICS. PEOPLE WHO WANT THINGS FIXED SHOULD GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND ENGAGE IN A CAREER TO FIX EVERYTHING THEMSELVES".

We hire economists for that.
We hire stock traders for that.
We hire government employees for that.
We hire bankers for that.

The majority of these people have not been doing their job correctly. The traders and bankers are fucking over the general public in the name of profit--to the point of decimating third world economics and crippling first world ones. The governments are allowing these practices to continue. Economists keep telling us how shitty things have gotten yet nobody does anything about it.

People who are protesting shouldn't be the ones to go back to school, seek a new career and fix things. The assholes we've employed as bankers, traders, and government officials should be doing that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom