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[dripdripsplash]

So aggravating. I hope the military just takes over. At least musharraf kept these idiots in check. Fail country fail democracy. Some countries are not meant to be democratic.

Yeah I get that a lot from my mother sometimes too. She's from Syria and the destruction of everything she knew from her home country makes her say that. I try to differ though but sometimes when I look at the state of it all the statement comes to me.

 

[Zapages]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cs-are-being-demolished-in-mecca-8536968.html

Yet the Muslim world is silent! :|

 

[Sorral]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cs-are-being-demolished-in-mecca-8536968.html

Yet the Muslim world is silent! :|

That's almost nothing compared to what they have done in the past and what they do behind the scenes...

I guess ignorance is bliss.

 

[Terra Firma]

There is a lot more to the Shi'a issue in Pakistan than what you get in any of the Western and even English sources. A lot more killings happen in Pakistan than are reported outside of the country.

Shi'as are a minority in Pakistan, yes, but they have carried out a disproportionate number of killings against Muslim Sunni scholars and Sunni laymen. Shi'as in Pakistan are also supported by Iran. The violence against Shi'as isn't exactly unwarranted as it is usually the effect of some grievance or other. My uncle, for example, witnessed Shi'a gunmen massacre dozens of Sunnis while they were in sujood during 'Asr prayer in the 90s.

There are even Sunni groups that fight and kill each other, such as Sunni Tehreek, headed by the Barelvi group, who fight against the Deobandi group. There have been massacres when a mosque's leadership has changed hands merely because the congregation had changed to majority Deobandi and vice versa.

Not to mention the fact that Pakistan is also home to some of the most illiterate and idiotic people to ever walk the earth, as the attack on the Christians shows.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cs-are-being-demolished-in-mecca-8536968.html

Yet the Muslim world is silent! :|

I don't think it is such a big deal if room has to be made for the pilgrims and nothing could be done as an alternative. Is it sinful to do any of these things, such as removing the birth house of the Prophet PBUH? What I don't like is when the Saudis try to emulate the Western world by being all glitzy, erecting expensive hotels instead of affordable accommodations. The monstrosities that surround the masjid in Makkah and an-Nabawi in Madinah are appalling. I would not have an issue with any of those things if they actually were of benefit to the hujjaj and the mu'tamiroon but they are only affordable to a select few. I remember in the mid-90s staying at a really poor quality hotel in Madinah, where there was a shared bathroom for every floor but it would literally take me 20-30 steps outside the door to reach the mosque proper. In Makkah, we stayed at another cheap hotel in the 90s that it took less than 10 minutes for me to reach the Ka'aba from the door of the hotel!

Also, that article cites "Irfan al-Alawi", who is anything but a friend of Muslims (or Islam, for that matter!). Anyone who calls the niqab as "un-Islamic" (as he has) should know that he has called the sunnah of the pure wives of the Prophet PBUH as "un-Islamic". A so-called "scholar" especially one who claims knowledge from the ulama of Hadhramawt (who follow the Shafi'i madhhab and who consider the niqab to be OBLIGATORY!), should certainly know better.

 

[Salih]

from the link:

Many senior Wahabis are vehemently against the preservation of historical Islamic sites that are linked to the prophet because they believe it encourages shirq – the sin of idol worshipping.

i wonder if they really think that way or is that just an excuse. I would say the latter.

 

[Sorral]

There is a lot more to the Shi'a issue in Pakistan than what you get in any of the Western and even English sources. A lot more killings happen in Pakistan than are reported outside of the country.

Shi'as are a minority in Pakistan, yes, but they have carried out a disproportionate number of killings against Muslim Sunni scholars and Sunni laymen. Shi'as in Pakistan are also supported by Iran. The violence against Shi'as isn't exactly unwarranted as it is usually the effect of some grievance or other. My uncle, for example, witnessed Shi'a gunmen massacre dozens of Sunnis while they were in sujood during 'Asr prayer in the 90s.

Not that shit again. Let me guess, Bahrain's people are protesting because Iran is involved, right? Same with Yemen and Syria too, right? Unless you are talking like 30 years ago when the revolution happened, the 80s and part of the 90s where both groups were being funded by their respective groups in the region. (Saudi Arabia funding extremist Sunnis in Pakistan and Iran funding extremist Shia in there)

Any violence against another group is not something you can simply justify like that. The Sunnis over there are usually the ones who start attacking the Shia and then the Shia retaliate as a result anyway not the other way around most of the time.

 

[F#A#Oo]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cs-are-being-demolished-in-mecca-8536968.html

Yet the Muslim world is silent! :|

I take issue with the Saudi's making the pilgrimage and holy sites look like an alternative Vegas...

Tearing down historical sites is a shame and more attempts should have been made to preserve them for sure...but I'm way more disturbed by the raising up of multiple 5* accommodations which is driving up the cost of the pilgrimage for every muslim and then trying to make it a shopping adventure all-in-one!

Do one of the 5 pillars of Islam and get a Burger King and some Armani...

 

[Bachner0000]

Just curious what any NeoGaf forum Muslims think of Zakir Naik. He seems to be pretty controversial and has a ton of videos uploaded to youtube. What do you all think?

 

[Terra Firma]

Not that shit again. Let me guess, Bahrain's people are protesting because Iran is involved, right? Same with Yemen and Syria too, right? Unless you are talking like 30 years ago when the revolution happened, the 80s and part of the 90s where both groups were being funded by their respective groups in the region. (Saudi Arabia funding extremist Sunnis in Pakistan and Iran funding extremist Shia in there)

Any violence against another group is not something you can simply justify like that. The Sunnis over there are usually the ones who start attacking the Shia and then the Shia retaliate as a result anyway not the other way around most of the time.

Iran provides funding to "Hezbollah" and that is much farther away than Pakistan or Bahrain from Iran.

And no, the Sunnis aren't the ones who "start attacking". Can you even prove such a baseless statement?

Furthermore, the only group that the Saudis do fund in Pakistan are the Ahle Hadees group, which is an extreme minority and the militant groups that follow this ideology are more set on the Kashmir issue than on the Shi'a issue.

It is no secret that Iran funds Shi'a groups in Pakistan and continues to do so. Remember Pakistan shares a border with Iran. Shi'as have been caught coming and going into Pakistan from the Balochistan border.

Just curious what any NeoGaf forum Muslims think of Zakir Naik. He seems to be pretty controversial and has a ton of videos uploaded to youtube. What do you all think?

The only real controversy about Zakir Naik is when he starts giving statements as if they are fatwas when he is not a scholar. He has no place to tell people about what the "correct way" of praying is nor does he have any right to talk about issues that he has no knowledge of, such as tasawwuf/sufism. A scholar from Nadwatul Uloom (one of the biggest Arabic madrasahs in India) spoke about it at Zakir Naik's own conference and Zakir Naik's fanboys (lol) started booing him.

The controversy about him praising Yazid is not a big deal. There have been Muslims in history that have praised him and doubt his guilt in the murder of Husayn RA. If he felt that way, though, he should have kept it to himself as it only creates fitnah. There is little love for Yazid, even among the Sunnis.

 

[Sorral]

Iran provides funding to "Hezbollah" and that is much farther away than Pakistan or Bahrain from Iran.

And no, the Sunnis aren't the ones who "start attacking". Can you even prove such a baseless statement?

Furthermore, the only group that the Saudis do fund in Pakistan are the Ahle Hadees group, which is an extreme minority and the militant groups that follow this ideology are more set on the Kashmir issue than on the Shi'a issue.

It is no secret that Iran funds Shi'a groups in Pakistan and continues to do so. Remember Pakistan shares a border with Iran. Shi'as have been caught coming and going into Pakistan from the Balochistan border.

Baseless?

One google search:
http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...5536_1_shabqadar-shia-hazara-bacha-khan-chowk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1758534.stm
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2013/mar/18/pakistan-extremist-democracy/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/24/us-pakistan-militants-idUSBRE89N00W20121024

How about you read a little?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian_violence_in_Pakistan

Only group being funded is Ahle Hadees?
One google search again:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11923176
http://www.zemtv.com/2013/03/02/saudi-arabia-funding-terrorist-groups-in-pakistan/
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2013/02/us-saudi-funded-terrorists-sowing-chaos.html
http://www.chinesedefence.com/forum...funded-terrorists-causing-chaos-pakistan.html

Saudi Arabia is the world's largest source of funds for Islamist militant groups such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba – but the Saudi government is reluctant to stem the flow of money, according to Hillary Clinton.

"More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaida, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups," says a secret December 2009 paper signed by the US secretary of state. Her memo urged US diplomats to redouble their efforts to stop Gulf money reaching extremists in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide," she said.

Three other Arab countries are listed as sources of militant money: Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.

I could add so many more articles and sources that go directly against what you are saying.
It is well known that Hezbollah follows Iran and does receive funding from Iran and Syria. This is also red herring.

 

[crazy monkey]

fuck sunni shia fighting.

 

[Terra Firma]

Baseless?

One google search:
http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...5536_1_shabqadar-shia-hazara-bacha-khan-chowk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1758534.stm
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2013/mar/18/pakistan-extremist-democracy/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/24/us-pakistan-militants-idUSBRE89N00W20121024

How about you read a little?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian_violence_in_Pakistan

Only group being funded is Ahle Hadees?
One google search again:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11923176
http://www.zemtv.com/2013/03/02/saudi-arabia-funding-terrorist-groups-in-pakistan/
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2013/02/us-saudi-funded-terrorists-sowing-chaos.html
http://www.chinesedefence.com/forum...funded-terrorists-causing-chaos-pakistan.html

You've just shown how little you know.

The Ahle Hadees are a school of thought in Pakistan that is an offshoot of Salafism/Wahhabism. The groups that your links refer to, such as Lashkar-e-Tayyiba are militant branches of the Ahle Hadees. The Barelvis, another group, who also has a militant branch called the Sunni Tehreek, do not receive any funding from the Saudis and in fact, see the Wahhabis/Salafis as outright kaafir (and so they also see the Ahle Hadees as kaafir).

And as expected, you provided a link to Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which is an ultramilitant organization that even broke away from the Sipah-e-Sahaba, which is the anti-Shi'a branch of the Deobandis. Furthermore, it was noted by the LeJ as well as other Sunni groups that the Shi'a travelling through Balochistan were headed for Iran and were not merely innocent lay Shi'a but militant infiltrators from Iran.

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi also have said that they only cause violence as retaliation, for either killing Sunnis, Sunni scholars, or cursing the sahabas RA.

The Sipah-e-Sahaba (SSP) has also rebranded itself, renouncing violence in the past 15 years or so, yet ranking scholars belonging to that group have been killed by the Shi'a. LeJ broke away from SSP because it renounced violence, even retaliatory violence. That is why after those Sunni scholars were killed, there were no revenge killings by the Sunnis, even though there should have been for the sake of justice (and Islam permits this as well).

And yes, still baseless. You have yet to provide that the Shi'a are not instigators and only act reflexively.

Some of the links aren't even articles from journalists. For example, there is not an iota of evidence that LeJ receives funding from Saudi, especially since the school of thought that LeJ adheres to, the Deobandis, are seen as mubtadi' and mushrik by the Ahle Hadees. What many of your links are claiming (without any evidence) is something like anti-UK Protestants funding the Catholic IRA so that they can take down the UK.

I could add so many more articles and sources that go directly against what you are saying.
It is well known that Hezbollah follows Iran and does receive funding from Iran and Syria. This is also red herring.

How is that a red herring when you claimed that Iran does not fund Bahrainis or Pakistanis? Also, it's funny that you deny Iranian involvement yet the Wikipedia link you provided suggests that Iran does fund the Shi'a terrorists in Pakistan.

It is highly suspect how Shi'as being such a minority hold so much power in Pakistan. Even the current prime minister is Shi'a.

And just a tip: unless you find Urdu articles from Pakistani newspapers, you won't find much in terms of holistic info about the goings on in Pakistan. A lot of what is published in Urdu does not make it into English. A simple "Google search" rarely shows a true picture, especially if it is done in English.

 

[Sorral]

You've just shown how little you know.

The Ahle Hadees are a school of thought in Pakistan that is an offshoot of Salafism/Wahhabism. The groups that your links refer to, such as Lashkar-e-Tayyiba are militant branches of the Ahle Hadees. The Barelvis, another group, who also has a militant branch called the Sunni Tehreek, do not receive any funding from the Saudis and in fact, see the Wahhabis/Salafis as outright kaafir (and so they also see the Ahle Hadees as kaafir).

So I just need to find a group that does not belong to Ahle Hadees and is being funded by Saudi Arabia? Except I already did in the Hilary quote and how they mention all of AlQaida, Taliban, LeT, and other militant groups.
I will take that Wikileak over what you are just claiming here and you can't blame me for that.

And as expected, you provided a link to Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which is an ultramilitant organization that even broke away from the Sipah-e-Sahaba, which is the anti-Shi'a branch of the Deobandis. Furthermore, it was noted by the LeJ as well as other Sunni groups that the Shi'a travelling through Balochistan were headed for Iran and were not merely innocent lay Shi'a but militant infiltrators from Iran.

How does this change anything from what I was saying? Source for them being militant infiltrators? I just quickly skimmed through what I linked and I am not finding it. So show me.

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi also have said that they only cause violence as retaliation, for either killing Sunnis, Sunni scholars, or cursing the sahabas RA.

You must be joking and I am starting to not take you seriously anymore:

"LeJ was established as an offshoot of another anti-Shi'ite organization called Sipah-e-Sahaba (Soldiers of Mohammad's Companions).
"Get rid of Shi'ites. That is our goal. May God help us," he said, before intelligence agents led him away for a fresh round of interrogation."
""Whoever insults the companions of the Holy Prophet should be given a death sentence," Ishaq declares.
Ishaq and other hardline Sunnis believe that Iran is trying to foment revolution in Pakistan to turn it into a Shi'ite state, though no evidence for that is offered."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/24/us-pakistan-militants-idUSBRE89N00W20121024

The Sipah-e-Sahaba (SSP) has also rebranded itself, renouncing violence in the past 15 years or so, yet ranking scholars belonging to that group have been killed by the Shi'a. LeJ broke away from SSP because it renounced violence, even retaliatory violence. That is why after those Sunni scholars were killed, there were no revenge killings by the Sunnis, even though there should have been for the sake of justice (and Islam permits this as well).

And where is this from? The link above disagrees with you about the SSP. Islam does not permit any kind of this shit: Sunni killing Shia or Shia killing Sunni. Just because there are some clueless goons start killing some scholars does not permit any of this shit.
SSP also now operates under the name of Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat and what they do is 'teach' students. Their teachings makes them hate Shitte and become radical Sunnis that will join militant groups.

And yes, still baseless. You have yet to provide that the Shi'a are not instigators and only act reflexively.

Like this?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2013/02/2013217181556808767.html
http://www.aimislam.com/anti-shia-a...tan-officials-give-militants-room-to-operate/
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/09/05/pakistan-shia-killings-escalate

These are the things that come up when I look for Shia attacks against Sunnis in Pakistan. Not actual attacks like my earlier post where I looked for Sunni attacks against Shia in Pakistan. Until you can provide something in the same magnitude, I will stick to what I know and found.

Some of the links aren't even articles from journalists. For example, there is not an iota of evidence that LeJ receives funding from Saudi, especially since the school of thought that LeJ adheres to, the Deobandis, are seen as mubtadi' and mushrik by the Ahle Hadees. What many of your links are claiming (without any evidence) is something like anti-UK Protestants funding the Catholic IRA so that they can take down the UK.

The Wikileaks and Hilary Clinton's memos disagree with you.

How is that a red herring when you claimed that Iran does not fund Bahrainis or Pakistanis? Also, it's funny that you deny Iranian involvement yet the Wikipedia link you provided suggests that Iran does fund the Shi'a terrorists in Pakistan.

It is highly suspect how Shi'as being such a minority hold so much power in Pakistan. Even the current prime minister is Shi'a.

You say I 'denied' Iran's involvement when in fact I did not. My first post reflects on this very clearly.
They do not fund Bahrain as you seem to casually claim. What the hell do they fund over there? Peaceful protests that civilians do and the sunni army/government attacks them for it? Before you claim that they do again, know that my hometown is less than an hour from Bahrain. We have seen the shit that's going on over there first hand. There is a whole massive propaganda that Iran is involved in everything when they are not. "Oh, this protest is happening because of Iran!" "There are spies and insurgents from Iran!" all over the local news papers using some 'insider source' or no sources at all.
I can safely bet that you will say that Iran funds Bahrainis simply because they are so close regionally. Ridiculous.

Oh and FYI, they are having elections soon. The government is very unpopular because they are failing to make things stable. You say that the prime minister being shia as if it is saving the shias from being killed.

It is Red Herring the same way I brought up Bahrain I guess.

And just a tip: unless you find Urdu articles from Pakistani newspapers, you won't find much in terms of holistic info about the goings on in Pakistan. A lot of what is published in Urdu does not make it into English. A simple "Google search" rarely shows a true picture, especially if it is done in English.

youdontsay.jpg (On this note, anyone can make such a claim and why have a discussion over things when it is ALL suddenly wrong or incomplete? I could ask my friend to translate Urdu for me, it is not that hard to find more information. Still doesn't change that there are information out there painting a certain picture right now regardless from what you keep claiming without backing it up. What a waste of time this is turning out to be.)

 

[Terra Firma]

So I just need to find a group that does not belong to Ahle Hadees and is being funded by Saudi Arabia? Except I already did in the Hilary quote and how they mention all of AlQaida, Taliban, LeT, and other militant groups.
I will take that Wikileak over what you are just claiming here and you can't blame me for that.

No, you did not (and apparently, you failed to read what I posted about Lashkar-e-Tayyiba). Al Qa'ida is a Salafi-oriented group as well and many members of the Taliban are also Salafi/Wahhabi. Saudi Arabia only funds groups that are associated with Ahle Hadees and all the groups you've mentioned are either affiliated or outright offshoots of the Ahle Hadees.

How does this change anything from what I was saying? Source for them being militant infiltrators? I just quickly skimmed through what I linked and I am not finding it. So show me.

These are the claims from the LeJ and why they make Shi'as a target in Balochistan. Of course you won't find why the LeJ did these killings (aside from "Shias lol" reason being propagated) in the various sites you've linked to. There are Urdu forums that discuss this issue but I don't think it would be wise to link to them here.

You must be joking and I am starting to not take you seriously anymore:

"LeJ was established as an offshoot of another anti-Shi'ite organization called Sipah-e-Sahaba (Soldiers of Mohammad's Companions).
"Get rid of Shi'ites. That is our goal. May God help us," he said, before intelligence agents led him away for a fresh round of interrogation."
""Whoever insults the companions of the Holy Prophet should be given a death sentence," Ishaq declares.
Ishaq and other hardline Sunnis believe that Iran is trying to foment revolution in Pakistan to turn it into a Shi'ite state, though no evidence for that is offered."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/24/us-pakistan-militants-idUSBRE89N00W20121024

Do you have a habit of half reading things? As I said, LeJ respond to attacks on Sunnis, Sunni scholars, and insults to the Sahaba RA.

Let me ask you: what is the Islamic viewpoint of those that insult the Prophet PBUH in an Islamic country?

And where is this from? The link above disagrees with you about the SSP. Islam does not permit any kind of this shit: Sunni killing Shia or Shia killing Sunni. Just because there are some clueless goons start killing some scholars does not permit any of this shit.
SSP also now operates under the name of Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat and what they do is 'teach' students. Their teachings makes them hate Shitte and become radical Sunnis that will join militant groups.

This is from the official statement of the SSP and its leadership. And it is a known fact that the LeJ broke away from the SSP because SSP moved away from violence.

And no, the only thing that radicalizes Muslims to hate Shi'a is what the Shi'as themselves do, when they insult the sahabas RA and the pure wives RA. Do you think Muslims like America more when we have people like that pastor calling for a day to burn the holy Qur'an? Of course not. Do you think Sunnis appreciate it when the Shi'as spread lies about the sahaba and the pure wives RA in Pakistan? Speaking of Bahrain, we even know about that guy Yasir al-Habeeb who holds annual celebrations where they celebrate 'Aisha RA burning in the fire!!! They invoke curses upon the three rightly guided caliphs, cursing them, etc. and they do so in the safety of the UK. In a Muslim country, their deaths would be guaranteed.

Like this?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2013/02/2013217181556808767.html
http://www.aimislam.com/anti-shia-a...tan-officials-give-militants-room-to-operate/
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/09/05/pakistan-shia-killings-escalate

These are the things that come up when I look for Shia attacks against Sunnis in Pakistan. Not actual attacks like my earlier post where I looked for Sunni attacks against Shia in Pakistan. Until you can provide something in the same magnitude, I will stick to what I know and found.

Yet again, no proof that the Shi'as were attacked unwarranted or that the Sunnis were instigators.

The Wikileaks and Hilary Clinton's memos disagree with you.

Here's a hint: not everything that Hilary Clinton or the US government says is fact. Otherwise, you won't have Ahle Hadees scholars going to great lengths to attack the Sunni Hanafi Deobandi scholars to whom LeJ claims affiliation.

Or are you continuing to confuse LeJ and LeT (Lashkar-e-Tayyiba)?

You say I 'denied' Iran's involvement when in fact I did not. My first post reflects on this very clearly.
They do not fund Bahrain as you seem to casually claim. What the hell do they fund over there? Peaceful protests that civilians do and the sunni army/government attacks them for it? Before you claim that they do again, know that my hometown is less than an hour from Bahrain. We have seen the shit that's going on over there first hand. There is a whole massive propaganda that Iran is involved in everything when they are not. "Oh, this protest is happening because of Iran!" "There are spies and insurgents from Iran!" all over the local news papers using some 'insider source' or no sources at all.
I can safely bet that you will say that Iran funds Bahrainis simply because they are so close regionally. Ridiculous.

Where did I say that Iran funds Bahrain? You brought up Bahrain in the first place. In any case, there is no reason to rule out Iranian backing of Bahraini Shi'a but that is besides the point. The fact remains that Iran does fund Shi'a groups in Pakistan, whereas Saudi funds Ahle Hadees/Salafi groups in Pakistan, not Sunni Hanafi groups like LeJ or SSP, since Ahle Hadees make tabdi' of LeJ and SSp and the school that they're affiliated with.

Oh and FYI, they are having elections soon. The government is very unpopular because they are failing to make things stable. You say that the prime minister being shia as if it is saving the shias from being killed.

You seem to not know much about Pakistani politics. It doesn't matter if a government is unpopular. After all, Benazir Bhutto, the dead wife of the current Prime Minister (as well as the Prime Minister himself) were convicted criminals because they stole from the people and were exiled, only allowed to return after Musharraf pardoned them!

It does not matter if the government isn't popular because there hasn't been a popular PM in Pakistan for decades.

There are also theories that President Zia-ul-Haq was murdered by the involvement of Iran, as he took a stance against Iran and nuclear technology was being provided from Pakistan to Iran behind his back. There hasn't been any anti-Iran leadership in Pakistan since.

youdontsay.jpg (On this note, anyone can make such a claim and why have a discussion over things when it is ALL suddenly wrong or incomplete? I could ask my friend to translate Urdu for me, it is not that hard to find more information. Still doesn't change that there are information out there painting a certain picture right now regardless from what you keep claiming without backing it up. What a waste of time this is turning out to be.)

I don't see the need to post links to articles in a language that you do not understand but there is always more than one side to an argument. You seem to believe that Pakistani Sunnis want to kill Shi'as for the fun of it and that the Shi'a are innocent, blameless and never warrant a violent response.

And no, I never said what you posted was "completely wrong". It only provides one side of the story. Would you trust what the Western media says about Islam or would you go speak to a Muslim scholar? Similarly, LeJ has been branded a terrorist organization and SSP, even after changing tactics and rebranding, have been continuously banned from running for public office, even after changing names and MO twice.

In the 80s, Shi'as increased their propagation by publishing books against the Sahaba and the pure wives RA. SSP was conceived during that time, not as a violent response, but revealing what Shi'a propaganda and lies against the sahaba and the pure wives RA. The LeJ broke away from SSP because of SSP's aversion to responding to violence with violence. LeJ continues to kill Shi'as in response to Shi'a violence. Shi'as kill Sunnis when the Sunni scholars say that the Shi'as say this or that about the sahaba and the pure wives RA. Why else would they go after the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'at (SSP) when the SSP and its current variant have all renounced violence?

For those who can read Urdu, here are some very recent attacks on Sunni scholars resulting in their martyrdom and/or martyrdom of their guardians:

Mawlana Ahmed Madani RH
Son and guards of Mawlana Abdul Ghafoor Nadeem
Mufti Abdul Majeed Deenpuri RH with three other individuals
Mawlana Sher Ali Haidri RH

There are many more. Seems like a lot of murders by a group claiming to be peaceful.

 

[Sorral]

Man and I thought I was going to have a real discussion here. You are coming off as a Sunni who is defending the Sahabas and the wives of the prophets and saying that it is justified to kill the Shia because they said anything against the Sahabas/wives regardless of why or reason and that they have a different view point than you do.

The SSP that you keep saying is going for non-violence has declared Shiitte to be non-muslim and wants Pakistan to be a Sunni-state. They are banned and considered a terrorists group for a reason regardless of what you keep on claiming in here. Also, obviously what the US government says isn't all facts especially the PR that's out in the open. However, you are not going to hear them say "HEY! Saudi Arabia is funding terrorists!" out in the open for a good reason. Hence the wikileak.

You seem to believe that Pakistani Sunnis want to kill Shi'as for the fun of it and that the Shi'a are innocent, blameless and never warrant a violent response.

See, this is why I said this would be a waste of time. I have never claimed either parties were innocent and you're putting words in my mouth. More reasons to not waste my time making a lengthy post again. The picture that's being painted for everyone to see is that Sunnis are doing more shit to Shia than the other way around, waaaaay more if statistics and deathtolls against civilians are to go by. In fact, I said this earlier: Islam does not permit any kind of this shit: Sunni killing Shia or Shia killing Sunni. Just because there are some clueless goons start killing some scholars does not permit any of this shit.

I wonder who is half reading and dismissing information left and right now.

 

[crazy monkey]

this discussion depressed me. such a sad state of affairs. why the fuck are you even talking about violence.

 

[Terra Firma]

Man and I thought I was going to have a real discussion here. You are coming off as a Sunni who is defending the Sahabas and the wives of the prophets and saying that it is justified to kill the Shia because they said anything against the Sahabas/wives regardless of why or reason and that they have a different view point than you do.

It is not about having a different point of view. It is about outright insults. Again, tell me, what is the punishment for someone who insults the Prophet PBUH, regardless of what sect one claims to belong to?

In Pakistan, the punishment for insulting the Prophet PBUH is death.

The SSP that you keep saying is going for non-violence has declared Shiitte to be non-muslim and wants Pakistan to be a Sunni-state. They are banned and considered a terrorists group for a reason regardless of what you keep on claiming in here. Also, obviously what the US government says isn't all facts especially the PR that's out in the open. However, you are not going to hear them say "HEY! Saudi Arabia is funding terrorists!" out in the open for a good reason. Hence the wikileak.

Do you even bother to read anything or make stuff up? The SSP belongs to a different ideological camp than Al Qaida or the Ahle Hadees or other Wahhabi groups. Why would Saudi Arabia fund some group that is ideologically opposed to them?

And so what if the SSP considers Shi'as to be non-Muslims? Don't Shi'as consider Wahhabis to be non-Muslims? Many Sunnis even outside of Pakistan consider the type of Shi'as in Pakistan and Iran (the Twelver Shi'a) to be non-Muslim, not because of some hatred, but because of basic ideological differences that take the Shi'a outside of Islam. It is not even an issue of insulting the sahabas RA.

Oh, and most Sunni scholars don't see the Zaydi Shi'a of Yemen as kafir because they reject ideological beliefs held by the twelvers, despite the fact that the Zaydis believe that Ali RA was the first caliph, and not Abu Bakr RA.

See, this is why I said this would be a waste of time. I have never claimed either parties were innocent and you're putting words in my mouth. More reasons to not waste my time making a lengthy post again. The picture that's being painted for everyone to see is that Sunnis are doing more shit to Shia than the other way around, waaaaay more if statistics and deathtolls against civilians are to go by. In fact, I said this earlier: Islam does not permit any kind of this shit: Sunni killing Shia or Shia killing Sunni. Just because there are some clueless goons start killing some scholars does not permit any of this shit.

You never claimed that? Yet your posts suggest that only the Sunnis are responsible and that the Shi'a that kill scholars are some "clueless goons", when in fact they are not. They belong to known terrorist groups, such as Tehreek-e-Ja'fariyah and the Sipah-e-Muhammad, who kill Sunnis. And I had asked you about who the instigators were and you said it was the Sunnis, implying that blame lay at the feet of the Sunnis alone.

If anything, the lack of coordination and utter chaos suggests that a lot of what is being done to the Shi'a is being done by "clueless goons" since things like mass bombings, etc. seem reminiscent of something like the TTP (Tehreek-e- Taliban Pakistan), which remains quite a mysterious organization in Pakistan itself, baffling even Wahhabis about who runs it. It is simply a general moniker like America's labeling of every Sunni Muslim terrorist group as "Al Qa'ida" or "Al Qa'ida affiliated".

I wonder who is half reading and dismissing information left and right now.

It most definitely is you, as you have demonstrated from this post already.

What Pakistan needs is strict reinforcement of blasphemy laws, similar to in India, where Hindus are not allowed to insult Muslims and vice versa at penalty of imprisonment. This would get rid of a lot of the sectarian issues. Look at India, where a Muslim minority has to live with a Hindu majority. Even with anti-Muslim parties like the BJP having a huge following in India, you don't see anything to the same extent as you see in Pakistan. India learned its lesson from the riots in Gujarat and the destruction of the Babri Masjid. Pakistan never learns anything.

this discussion depressed me. such a sad state of affairs. why the fuck are you even talking about violence.

Brother, you should know that there are instigators and there are those that react. A lot of Shi'a rhetoric is based upon vilifying the companions of the Prophet PBUH. There is even a shrine for the assassin of Umar RA in Iran, Abu Lu'lu the Zoroastrian (yes, they made a shrine to a kafir who killed one of the greatest humans after the Prophets PBUT). Sunnis have nothing to say to the Shi'as that would rile them up because we respect almost all the personalities that the Shi'as respect, including the Shi'a imams. On the other hand, the twelver Shi'a have a hatred for the rightly guided caliphs, as well as major companions, such as Abu Hurayrah RA. The hatred stretched to the wives of the Prophet PBUH, especially 'Aisha RA and Hafsa RA. This video would make any Muslim sick to his stomach.

 

[noobie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cs-are-being-demolished-in-mecca-8536968.html

Yet the Muslim world is silent! :|

i am not sure if making room for having more hajis perform tawaf on hajj and umrah tawaf in ramadan is a wrong thing.. I wander what the Prophet(SAW) aur his companions would have done..

I am lucky to have performed Hajj and Umrah in Ramadan.. and i sometime do feel that it gets too crowded and should be extended... making ease for fellow muslims i believe is one of the more important thing..

So i think UK journalist are making sensation out of a useless issue.. They are holy places and more and more people should be able to come and visit them and experience the blessings of it..

 

[Terra Firma]

i am not sure if making room for having more hajis perform tawaf on hajj and umrah tawaf in ramadan is a wrong thing.. I wander what the Prophet(SAW) aur his companions would have done..

I am lucky to have performed Hajj and Umrah in Ramadan.. and i sometime do feel that it gets too crowded and should be extended... making ease for fellow muslims i believe is one of the more important thing..

So i think UK journalist are making sensation out of a useless issue.. They are holy places and more and more people should be able to come and visit them and experience the blessings of it..

No sane person would take issue with what the Saudis are doing if it is going to create ease for the pilgrims except those who have an ingrained hatred for the Saudis. Expanding the actual haram itself should not be seen as controversial. After all, the Ottomans expanded the masjid in Makkah as well as an-Nabawi in Madinah. Masjid an-Nabawi had a ceiling made of palm tree leaves originally, for example. People barely had enough room to stand. The floor was made of sand and there were no carpets or marble floors.

The major problem that a lot of people, including Saudi scholars, have raised is when sites were demolished to be replaced with expensive and unnecessarily tall structures. Even Saudis took issue with that clock tower, for example, but of course the monarchy has the final say, regardless of what scholars say. More serious issues, like co-ed universities in Saudi Arabia should be of greater concern to Muslims than things like destruction of relics. Scholars were removed from their post if they even attempted to raise concerns about co-ed universities.

The article is specifically talking about expanding the haram and the project is spearheaded by none other than Shaykh Abdur Rahman as-Sudais, one of the most famous imams of Makkah.

 

[ZiZ]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cs-are-being-demolished-in-mecca-8536968.html

Yet the Muslim world is silent! :|

the holy mosque is extremely crowded, a lot of expansions need to be made, if removing some ottoman architecture will make Hajj and Umrah easier for the millions of muslims that visit, then I'm all for it, it's a mosque not a museum. these buildings might have some cultural significance but as muslims they shouldn't hold any religious significance.

I do agree with pretty much everyone else that, the whole expensive hotels/shopping mall stuff is inappropriate.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Just booked my Hajj!

I get chills thinking about it! I hope I'm prepared!

 

[Madness]

Here's a question for discussion. Why is India, the country with the world's third largest population of Muslims (161 million+ people), and the largest muslim minority population, not allowed to join the Organization of Islamic Cooperation?

I get that there are internal struggles between Hindus and Muslims and that India and pakistan have a nasty history of wars, but the Muslims in India are very influential and at times moderate than other countries.

It's a shame because Indian Muslims can open the eyes of people around the world with preconceived notions of Islam no?

Thoughts? I'm not muslim, just wondering.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Here's a question for discussion. Why is India, the country with the world's third largest population of Muslims (161 million+ people), and the largest muslim minority population, not allowed to join the Organization of Islamic Cooperation?

I get that there are internal struggles between Hindus and Muslims and that India and pakistan have a nasty history of wars, but the Muslims in India are very influential and at times moderate than other countries.

It's a shame because Indian Muslims can open the eyes of people around the world with preconceived notions of Islam no?

Thoughts? I'm not muslim, just wondering.

Because of Kashmir and Pakistan has always blocked their entry.

 

[crazy monkey]

Here's a question for discussion. Why is India, the country with the world's third largest population of Muslims (161 million+ people), and the largest muslim minority population, not allowed to join the Organization of Islamic Cooperation?

I get that there are internal struggles between Hindus and Muslims and that India and pakistan have a nasty history of wars, but the Muslims in India are very influential and at times moderate than other countries.

It's a shame because Indian Muslims can open the eyes of people around the world with preconceived notions of Islam no?

Thoughts? I'm not muslim, just wondering.

I do not think they need to join that. Muslim in inida are good as it is.

 

[noobie]

the holy mosque is extremely crowded, a lot of expansions need to be made, if removing some ottoman architecture will make Hajj and Umrah easier for the millions of muslims that visit, then I'm all for it, it's a mosque not a museum. these buildings might have some cultural significance but as muslims they shouldn't hold any religious significance.

I do agree with pretty much everyone else that, the whole expensive hotels/shopping mall stuff is inappropriate.

I second it too, shopping mall with some questionable brands shop especially...

 

[Tizoc]

Just booked my Hajj!

I get chills thinking about it! I hope I'm prepared!

Inshallah Hajj mabroor wa dhenb maghfoor, my friend =)

 

[liger05]

Saudis fighting in Syria will be arrested when they return home. The warning has been issued by the Interior Ministry. Maj. Gen. Mansour Al-Turki, the ministry’s spokesman, said: “Involvement in the Syrian crisis is against Saudi laws.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/446106

What happened to the Sharia in Saudi?

 

[Laughing Banana]

So who is your favorite muslim artist, IslamGAF?

I particularly like Maher Zein, his voice is amazingly soothing. Anyone else to recommend?

 

[ginger ninja]

Shi'as are a minority in Pakistan, yes, but they have carried out a disproportionate number of killings against Muslim Sunni scholars and Sunni laymen. Shi'as in Pakistan are also supported by Iran. The violence against Shi'as isn't exactly unwarranted as it is usually the effect of some grievance or other. My uncle, for example, witnessed Shi'a gunmen massacre dozens of Sunnis while they were in sujood during 'Asr prayer in the 90s.

i don't usually rage on the the internet but man, wtf are you even talking about ? this is coming from a sunni who has lived in pakistan for last 20 years...all the bs about about Iranian support is just..BS..you are basically saying the shias deserve what's happening to them, which includes wholesale murder..so kindly STFU

Most mainstream shias and sunnis in pakistan don't have existential hate for each other, on the contrary they live peacefully together, when shit does hit the fan it's because an asshole extremist comes out and starts throwing out names like apostate and what not

 

[ginger ninja]

fuck me, some of this shit on this page is straight up bannable..not because it insults my intelligence but because it's almost advocating violence

 

[Laughing Banana]

Um, sorry I posted that question above in the middle of very heated conversation people. Now it seems so out of place, hahaha.

Phew *wipes sweat*

Carry on then.

 

[Lord British]

Just booked my Hajj!

I get chills thinking about it! I hope I'm prepared!

Awesome. Really awesome. Well done. Let us know about the trip, how you felt.

 

[Amaron]

So who is your favorite muslim artist, IslamGAF?

I particularly like Maher Zein, his voice is amazingly soothing. Anyone else to recommend?

Sami Yusuf. What a man.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Asalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmetullah

Hey Islam-Gaf, I don't think any of you are in Sydney but if you are then I have to recommend coming along to this. Shaykh Naeem is only giving one talk here and this one is going to be awesome. I've been getting previews of it all week and I can't wait to see it... and probably the takfir that follows it.

If you can't come along, insha'Allah I will be able to provide a link to the recording so that people can still benefit from it.

 

[Messofanego]

That's almost nothing compared to what they have done in the past and what they do behind the scenes...

I guess ignorance is bliss.

“It matters because many of these columns signified certain areas of the mosque where the Prophet sat and prayed,” he said. “The historical record is being deleted. A new Muslim would never have a clue because there’s nothing marking these locations now. There are ways you could expand Mecca and Medina while protecting the historical heritage of the mosque itself and the surrounding sites.”​

Seriously. This is just depressing to hear. Having lived there for 6 years when I was 9-15 yrs old, it's sad to hear what that place has become.

 

[Sajjaja]

Asalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmetullah

Hey Islam-Gaf, I don't think any of you are in Sydney but if you are then I have to recommend coming along to this. Shaykh Naeem is only giving one talk here and this one is going to be awesome. I've been getting previews of it all week and I can't wait to see it... and probably the takfir that follows it.

If you can't come along, insha'Allah I will be able to provide a link to the recording so that people can still benefit from it.

Salam, I'd really like this lecture if you could hook me up with the recording once you get it. I've been really trying to grasp the concept of evolution and how it could work with Islam recently so this would be really relevant to me.

I've never heard of this Shaykh Naeem, but then again, I haven't really sought out scholars who I agree with.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Salam, I'd really like this lecture if you could hook me up with the recording once you get it. I've been really trying to grasp the concept of evolution and how it could work with Islam recently so this would be really relevant to me.

I've never heard of this Shaykh Naeem, but then again, I haven't really sought out scholars who I agree with.

Walaykum Salaam,

Happily, I will post it up as soon as it is ready.

Shaykh Naeem Abdul Wali is an American convert, he studied under Sheikh Mahmud in Turkey for many years. I took shahadah with him and he lived in Australia for a time.

 

[Ashes]

hmm..

 

[phosphor112]

The Umar series has been astoundingly successful. The Message was the same. Don't see why this would be that different.

I just came into this convo, but I think you're talking about "The Message" the movie? Because I absolutely loved it. I watched it as a child. Recently bought a copy of the DVD.

Asalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmetullah

Hey Islam-Gaf, I don't think any of you are in Sydney but if you are then I have to recommend coming along to this. Shaykh Naeem is only giving one talk here and this one is going to be awesome. I've been getting previews of it all week and I can't wait to see it... and probably the takfir that follows it.

If you can't come along, insha'Allah I will be able to provide a link to the recording so that people can still benefit from it.

Please do tell.

I personally think Adam and Eve were the first "souls" that Allah put on Earth. I don't think anything in the Quran denies or confirms the existence of evolution.

Once again, I would love to hear where I can get a recording.

 

[Sajjaja]

Please do tell.

I personally think Adam and Eve were the first "souls" that Allah put on Earth. I don't think anything in the Quran denies or confirms the existence of evolution.

Once again, I would love to hear where I can get a recording.

I think all animals have souls, but as far as I know, we are only told that Adam and Hawa (Eve) were created directly by Allah's hands. We don't know the means all other creation was made, correct?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Please do tell.

I personally think Adam and Eve were the first "souls" that Allah put on Earth. I don't think anything in the Quran denies or confirms the existence of evolution.

Once again, I would love to hear where I can get a recording.

Basically the first part of the lecture established the role of observation (empiricism) within Muslim understandings of the world. He basically asserts that observation is foundational. We do not dismiss the scientific method.

He then discussed the observational foundations of evolution. Basically the three parts of the recipe. Deep time, randomness and natural selection. He discusses how these are not a problem for the Muslim, because Allah is not confined by time and the Qur'an explicitly sets out the relationship between divine decree and the appearance of random events (the example being the drawing of lots).

Thus there is no problem for the Muslim to accept evolution as the 'asbab' (appearance, means, observed manner of occurrence) of the creative act. The only stumbling block is specifically the case of Adam (alayhis salaam) and how we understand the role of humanity's specific unique place in the world.

As to this, he presented a number of scenarios for our understanding, but did not endorse any. The foundation of any persons knowledge is the statement 'I don't know' and he simply said as much. It could be any of the presented scenarios, or none. God knows best.

I'll post up the lecture when it is uploaded insha'Allah.



Sajjaja, I had not heard that. When you say 'soul' do you mean 'ruh'?

 

[Necromanti]

It is not about having a different point of view. It is about outright insults. Again, tell me, what is the punishment for someone who insults the Prophet PBUH, regardless of what sect one claims to belong to?

I wouldn't think insults alone would be a good enough justification for sectarian violence. That would only breed further hatred and a cycle of bloodshed.

I take issue with the Saudi's making the pilgrimage and holy sites look like an alternative Vegas...

Tearing down historical sites is a shame and more attempts should have been made to preserve them for sure...but I'm way more disturbed by the raising up of multiple 5* accommodations which is driving up the cost of the pilgrimage for every muslim and then trying to make it a shopping adventure all-in-one!

Do one of the 5 pillars of Islam and get a Burger King and some Armani...

Welcome to the Arabian Peninsula of today, I'm afraid. It's capitalism taken to its furthest extremes.

 

[phosphor112]

Basically the first part of the lecture established the role of observation (empiricism) within Muslim understandings of the world. He basically asserts that observation is foundational. We do not dismiss the scientific method.

He then discussed the observational foundations of evolution. Basically the three parts of the recipe. Deep time, randomness and natural selection. He discusses how these are not a problem for the Muslim, because Allah is not confined by time and the Qur'an explicitly sets out the relationship between divine decree and the appearance of random events (the example being the drawing of lots).

Thus there is no problem for the Muslim to accept evolution as the 'asbab' (appearance, means, observed manner of occurrence) of the creative act. The only stumbling block is specifically the case of Adam (alayhis salaam) and how we understand the role of humanity's specific unique place in the world.

As to this, he presented a number of scenarios for our understanding, but did not endorse any. The foundation of any persons knowledge is the statement 'I don't know' and he simply said as much. It could be any of the presented scenarios, or none. God knows best.

I'll post up the lecture when it is uploaded insha'Allah.



Sajjaja, I had not heard that. When you say 'soul' do you mean 'ruh'?

Yeah, like spirit. I mean, as someone else said above, everything Allaw SWT has soul, but they were the first created as part of Allah's ultimate plan.

 

[Instigator]

edit: wrong thread.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

So I was watching a video today and in it a Muslim man made the claim that the Quran is evidence of Allah because it couldn't be written by man. This seems to be one of the claims used by many Muslims that God is real, but all I'm seeing is a big logical fallacy in this reasoning. Can someone delve into this line of reasoning further?

Also OS, is that Evolution and Islam talk available somewhere?

 

[Laughing Banana]

Just want to chime in to say that I hope Muslim communities in the US will not be begrudged by many due to what happened in Boston. Although I am sure many already formed opinions that it is work of a Muslim despite no proof whatsoever yet

 

[Zapages]

So I was watching a video today and in it a Muslim man made the claim that the Quran is evidence of Allah because it couldn't be written by man. This seems to be one of the claims used by many Muslims that God is real, but all I'm seeing is a big logical fallacy in this reasoning. Can someone delve into this line of reasoning further?

Also OS, is that Evolution and Islam talk available somewhere?

Islam and Evolution thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428327&

Enjoy...

 

[Sajjaja]

Islam and Evolution thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428327&

Enjoy...

That's not what he was referring to. He was talking about the lecture that OS attended regarding this issue and said that there would be a recording of it. I'm also interested in it.

 

[Megalosaro]

I recently became curious about the subject and I figured I'd ask here.

Does anyone know of any sites with Muslim/Islamic-influenced fairy tales/folktales/legends? I've recently really gotten into world folk lore

 

[Zapages]

That's not what he was referring to. He was talking about the lecture that OS attended regarding this issue and said that there would be a recording of it. I'm also interested in it.

did not know...

I recently became curious about the subject and I figured I'd ask here.

Does anyone know of any sites with Muslim/Islamic-influenced fairy tales/folktales/legends? I've recently really gotten into world folk lore

101 Persian Nights or 101 Arabian Nights...