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Official Islamic Thread
- Thread starter AmMortal
- Start date
Hadji said:
Exclusive? No. Does each sect believe their version of Islam to be completely true? Yes.
But for you to call Shiism unislamic is a different issue. This isn't Wahabism we're talking about. Shias and Sunnis should both be regarded as Muslims because they both follow the 5 pillars of Islam, they both believe in one God, and they both believe that Mohammed was his messenger. Any differences are minute within the grand scheme of things, and those who try to say otherwise are either disingenuous or ignorant of each sect.
CHYME said:
Oh? And "Wahabbis" believe in mutiple gods and deny Mohammed (pbuh)?
MeowMeow said:
castle_007 said:
Not according to the Qur'an, for:
4:116 - Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and He forgives what is besides this to whom He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
Easy! Y and Z are most likely to go to hell.
Himuro said:
Well, I can't speak for Sunnis, but when the first reports of smoking being harmful reached Shia scholars, they issued fatwas saying that it was haram for anyone to take up smoking and those that already smoke should try to give up, but of course if that wasn't possible, then they were allowed to continue.
So basically, it is haram to smoke unless of course you were already addicted before you knew about the health issues.
Himuro said:
Shaikh Al Munajjid's opinion on smoking taken from islam-qa.com
Armitage said:
Not at all. Think of it this way...
From MeowMeow's example, we are given two different types of people. One that worships his creator in a good way, but treats the creation badly, and the other that treats his creator badly, but treats the creation in a good way.
Basically, one owes his creator more than one owes his equals in creation.
That is the logical evidence. The textual evidence is the verse I quoted.
CHYME said:No, but much of their message is completely anti-Islamic, and somewhat similar to a certain poster on this board. :/
Say, Hadji....you're not Wahhabi, are you?
Hah. That is similar to asking a North Korean if he is from "the axis of evil". Or would you like it if someone asked you if you are a "Rafidhi"?
I don't call myself a "Wahhabi". However, I have noticed that every Sunni that Shi'ites dislike are branded with the term... that or a "Nasibee".
Anyways, if that is a serious question, then you'd need to define "Wahabism" since I'm not aware of a specific definition tied to the word.
Himuro said:
Just because something has been prohibited doesn't mean people won't do it. For example, alcohol is prohibited, but some Muslims still drink.
Strange that you didn't see any women, seperate entrances perhaps? At my local mosque, men enter from the back and women from the front into completely seperate adjacent halls. But even then, we still see women outside.
Anyway, back to revision, I keep wanting to post more so I don't have to revise
CHYME said:
Ooo! This should be good!
First of all, I never restricted worship to prayer and recognizing one God. You are wrong for assuming that.
Would you care to take a jab at MeowMeow's question? Do you believe that Allah (swt) would forgive those that associate others with Him?
Hadji said:
From Wikipedia:
[Wahhabism (Arabic: Al-Wahhābīyya الوهابية
or Wahabism is a name applied to the conservative 18th century Salafi Islamic movement attributed to Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, an Islamic scholar from what is today known as Saudi Arabia, who became known for advocating a return to the beliefs and practices of the first three generations of Islamic history][and is the dominant form of Islam found in Saudi Arabia, and Qatar]
[The term "Wahhabi" (Wahhābīya) was first used by opponents of ibn Abdul Wahhab and is considered highly derogatory and rarely used by the people it is used to describe, who prefer to be called "unitarians" (Muwahiddun).]
[The Qur'an and Hadith are treated as fundamental texts]
[A study by the NGO Freedom House claimed to find wahhabi publications in a number of mosques in the United States preaching that Muslims should not only "always oppose" infidels "in every way," but "hate them for their religion ... for Allah's sake," that democracy "is responsible for all the horrible wars of the 20th century," and that Shia and other non-Wahhabi Muslims were infidels.]
CHYME said:From Wikipedia:
[Wahhabism (Arabic: Al-Wahhābīyya الوهابية
[and is the dominant form of Islam found in Saudi Arabia, and Qatar]
[The term "Wahhabi" (Wahhābīya) was first used by opponents of ibn Abdul Wahhab and is considered highly derogatory and rarely used by the people it is used to describe, who prefer to be called "unitarians" (Muwahiddun).]
[The Qur'an and Hadith are treated as fundamental texts]
[A study by the NGO Freedom House claimed to find wahhabi publications in a number of mosques in the United States preaching that Muslims should not only "always oppose" infidels "in every way," but "hate them for their religion ... for Allah's sake," that democracy "is responsible for all the horrible wars of the 20th century," and that Shia and other non-Wahhabi Muslims were infidels.]
A few comments about the article Chyme...
There are some truthful statements in there about "Wahabism". Like the fact that they do "advocate a return to the beliefs and practices of the first three generations of Islamic history" and that "The Qur'an and Hadith are treated as fundamental texts."
However, I disagree with pretty much everything else in the NGO Freedom House paragraph. Yes, and that includes that other "non-Wahhabi Muslims were infidels".
So, I guess I am not a "Wahhabi" then.
DSWii60 said:
QFT.
Hadji said:
Let's see...
MeowMeow said:
So basically, he prayed, fasted, recognized God, donated some money, and went to Mecca. Besides that, he might as well have been the devil himself.
Hadji said:
One that worships his creator in a good way? Worshipping God is more than following the 5 pillars of Islam. Surely, killing innocent people isn't worshipping "his creator in a good way." Being deceitful and a backstabber isn't worshipping "his creator in a good way." Worshipping God is to follow what he's said in the Quran, first and foremost.
I'm not assuming anything. You said that person X, in this case, was worshipping his creator in a good way. For that to be the case, worshipping God has to be limited to, in this case, the 5 pillars of Islam, which, in short, is close enough to praying and recognizing one God.
Of course, I couldn't say definitively whether anybody was going to hell, but if Islam is to make any sense for me, "person X" would go to hell far easier than the other 2.
Hmmmm, after further consideration, I am going to change my answer. I don't think any of them will go to heaven. But God is the only one that knows.
The muslim is a very bad muslim. Killing innocents and lying and deceiting is a guarantee.
The Christian is a good person, BUT, he DOES believe in the trinity and he DOESN'T believe that Mohammad is a true prophet.
The Hindu, well a hindu can worship anything, so for this example, it is really vague what he believe in. But you mentioned that he is just like person Y who rejected Islam and Mohammad as the last prophet
The muslim is a very bad muslim. Killing innocents and lying and deceiting is a guarantee.
The Christian is a good person, BUT, he DOES believe in the trinity and he DOESN'T believe that Mohammad is a true prophet.
The Hindu, well a hindu can worship anything, so for this example, it is really vague what he believe in. But you mentioned that he is just like person Y who rejected Islam and Mohammad as the last prophet
CHYME said:
MeowMeow, has already established that this person is indeed a Muslim and not the devil.
Being deceitful, backstabbing, and killing innocent people all fall under the things that Allah (swt) forgives according to the verse. Associating others with Allah (swt) has no room for forgiveness.
You are right. Islam doesn't make sense to you.
castle007 said:
Yes, this answer coincides more with Islam than your first. It appears to us that none of them will go to heaven, but it is still possible for Allah (swt) to forgive the Muslim since his sins don't include shirk.
...Allah knows best.
CHYME said:
You didn't destroy "my claim". It is clear that Allah (swt) forgives every but shirk and it is in the Qur'an. You are contradicting the Qur'an for the sake of "being right" since you don't want to back down against a "Wahhabi".
Tell me, now that you've chosen to contradict the Qur'an for your own personal desires, where do you get your religion from?
I knew this would be your response Hadji, and that I had a suspicion that your rigid judgmental attitude is clouding you from the basic fact on what I stated before:
The answer is we dont really know, but we can only infer (imo) the most likely person going to hell is person x, despite him beleiving In 1 God and Prophet Muhammad being his last messanger. Hadji your responses have been very baffeling. This whole hell fire concept is what turns people away from religion in the first place, especially from dumbasses like you. It is not Gods nature to simply send them to hell without evaluating a persons entire life and his/her conductance. You are not God Hadji. You may say "I know im not God" But you act like you speak for God when infact you dont. So please stop with your nonsense. I have finally discovered your bullshit logic.
The point I was trying to make from before was:
Chyme, please for the love of Allah dont listen to Hadji.
And for the smoking thing, smoking is just as destructive as alcohol (even more so)
i dont think people smoked at prophet muhammads time, but i know if he was aware of it he would not allow it. Methamphetamines are not mentioned in Quran, but just because its not mentioned in Quran doesnt necessarily mean its ok to take.
It baffeles me is that you cant seem to have the ability in whats important and what is not important, and not understanding the forgiving, compassionate, loving nature of God, considering that before every chapter it states "In the name of God, the most benefitial, the most compassionate, merciful"
He is also referred to as most loving. He loves you more than your own parents (that is if you feel that your parents truly love you)
Hadji said:
You forgot something.
IF you do all these things and then you die without asking for forgiveness. Your resume won't be looking good on the day of judgement.
But if you do them and honestly repent and ask God's forgiveness then you have a chance at going to heaven. Murder is considered a major sin and if you want to go to heaven the only to do it is through asking for special forgiveness from God. God is merciful and if you truly repent, He won't shy away from forgiving you.
"Surely, Allah does not forgive associating anything with Him, and He forgives whatever is other than that to whomever He wills." (al-Nisa 4:48 and 116)
Hadji said:
Actually, I did destroy it. Anyone who understands English can see that. I'm not contradicting the Quran by saying that person X is more likely to go to hell than the other 2. I know that associating others with God is a sin and is not forgiven, but do you realize that good deeds can offset bad deeds? Do you realize than there's a balance between good and bad? No one is 100% good.
:lol @ personal desires. Personal desire to find logic in Islam? How petty of me.
Im not sure if your muslim, but you seem to get what I was trying to say. Thank Allah all mighty!!!
And yes, person x still has a chance of going to heaven if he prays for forgiveness, repents, and try to UNDOs all the wrongs he has done. There is always a chance for everyone. Gods love, mercy and forgiveness is always there and is constant, in the same manner gravity is constant. If you drop a piano from a 3 story building, you cant blame gravity. Same thing for any person, you cant blame God or the dumb devil for your bad deeds, doing good, helping others, loving one another is the best thing you can do, and God loves to forgive and shower people with blessings much more so then simply sending someone to hellfire.
That still doesnt explain the conductance of ones behavior and deeds.
An idol worshipper who does good in the same manner as a muslim is automatically going to hell.
A muslim who beleives in one god and not a idol worshipper who does every sin you can think of has a greater chance of going heaven?
MeowMeow said:
God will forgive their minor sins and he will factor in the fact they were good people. But then BAM, the major sin factors in and this one happens to be SHIRK. That sin outweighs all other deeds combined!!! According to the verse, this sin won't be erased!
Yes, because he believes in God and doesn't associate anyone else with Him. But he has to repent and he has to ask for forgiveness from God.
Have you ever read the Quran? Seriously I'm surprised that you still do not understand that Associating others with God or worshiping Idols is the BIGGEST sin one can commit. Why do you think Prophets were sent to humans? Why do you think Allah sent us the Quran?MeowMeow said: