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[epitome]

Quotations from the Koran, in order of their appearance in the text. To the non believers.

"God will mock them and keep them long in sin,blundering blindly along" (2:15)
"A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them" (2:24)
"They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85)
"God's curse be upon the infidels!"(2:89)
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. And ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90)
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews],and the pagans,resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord"(2:105)
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter"(2:114)
"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book,and who read it as it ought to be read,truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost"(2:122)
"[We] shall let them live awhile,and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate"(2:126)
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever, their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162)
"They shall sigh with remorse,but shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168)
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf,dumb,and blind, they understand nothing"(2:172)
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175)
"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2:176)
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. ...if they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evildoers"(2:190-93)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not"(2:216)
"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith--if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217-18)
"God does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258)
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2:264)
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5)
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam... He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (3:19)
"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful--he that does this has nothing to hope for from God--except in self-defense" (3:28)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118)
"Let not the unbelievers think that we prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (3:178)
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin... (4:50)"
"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (4:55-56)

I only stop cause my hands are cramping not because this is all.

 

[ice cream]

I've read many of those sites and I hate the anti-semitic agendas they have. ?

You know, arabs are also semites...

 

[Azih]

There's a lot about science and Islam: http://www.islamicity.com/Science/iqs/

and this: http://www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html

Oh I'm not talking about Science and Islam. Muslim contributions to science are pretty damn amazing.

I'm talking about th 'science' of the hadith, which is a whoole different kettle of fish and has nothing to do with science at all really.

 

[Zapages]

Oh I'm not talking about Science and Islam. Muslim contributions to science are pretty damn amazing.

I'm talking about th 'science' of the hadith, which is a whoole different kettle of fish and has nothing to do with science at all really.

Check the second link, it has quotes from the Holy Quran and their explanation on embryo development for an example.

I am not to sure about hadiths, I'll have to look into that.

 

[Azih]

You seem to be not aware that the authenticity of the Qur'an is established by the science of hadith.

Ever heard of riwayat Hafs 'an Asim?

No I haven't actually.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Quotations from the Koran, in order of their appearance in the text. To the non believers.

"God will mock them and keep them long in sin,blundering blindly along" (2:15)
"A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them" (2:24)
"They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85)
"God's curse be upon the infidels!"(2:89)
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. And ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90)
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews],and the pagans,resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord"(2:105)
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter"(2:114)
"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book,and who read it as it ought to be read,truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost"(2:122)
"[We] shall let them live awhile,and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate"(2:126)
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever, their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162)
"They shall sigh with remorse,but shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168)
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf,dumb,and blind, they understand nothing"(2:172)
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175)
"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2:176)
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. ...if they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evildoers"(2:190-93)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not"(2:216)
"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith--if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217-18)
"God does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258)
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2:264)
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5)
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam... He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (3:19)
"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful--he that does this has nothing to hope for from God--except in self-defense" (3:28)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118)
"Let not the unbelievers think that we prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (3:178)
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin... (4:50)"
"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (4:55-56)

I only stop cause my hands are cramping not because this is all.

how should a non-Muslim take this?

 

[i_am_ben]

how should a non-Muslim take this?

that he spent too long typing it out when he could probably have just copy/pasted it

 

[epitome]

how should a non-Muslim take this?

As the Koran is the literal word of God, its an example of how on the Koran instructs observant Muslims to despise non-believers. The book prepares the ground for religious conflict. Its a clear example between Muslim faith and Muslim violence. The book is full of it.

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim
Its from a book not a website, so i did copy and paste it the only way I am aware of, typing it out.

 

[Instigator]

how should a non-Muslim take this?

Mix of indifference and light amusement.

 

[DSWii60]

As the Koran is the literal word of God, its an example of how on the Koran instructs observant Muslims to despise non-believers. The book prepares the ground for religious conflict. Its a clear example between Muslim faith and Muslim violence. The book is full of it.

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim
Its from a book not a website, so i did copy and paste it the only way I am aware of, typing it out.

Yes, because out of context quotes prove so much!

 

[Kinitari]

Yes, because out of context quotes prove so much!

Well... I mean it's not so simple. There is a clear distaste for unbelievers, doubly so for apostates in many Islamic cultures. Some would want me dead for turning against Islam, and whether or not this is the true message of the book is irrelevant, it is the context in which way too many take it. It's a little bit scary until I remember I live in Canada, and no one is going to kill me for being Atheist - not so much in some other countries.

 

[RiZ III]

As the Koran is the literal word of God, its an example of how on the Koran instructs observant Muslims to despise non-believers. The book prepares the ground for religious conflict. Its a clear example between Muslim faith and Muslim violence. The book is full of it.

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim
Its from a book not a website, so i did copy and paste it the only way I am aware of, typing it out.

how should a non-Muslim take this?

It's no secret that God will have no love for atheists and polytheists on the day of judgment. Most of those verses quoted are about what will happen to these people in the afterlife. No where does that imply that Muslims should treat them badly. "Don't let you hatred for a people lead you to be unjust" is what the Quran says. As for 216-218, these are the most popular verses used to claim that the Quran tells Muslims to kill non-Believers. Truth is that these are verses dealing with war. Yes, in a time of war, a Muslim must join the cause of the country. What's wrong with that? This doesn't relate as much in modern day as all Muslim countries have armies, so you just join the army if you want. These verses were referring to Muslims who refused to fight to defend the Muslim community, which wasn't big at the time. If they wouldn't fight for the Muslims, who would?

Aggression is neither recommended or promoted in the Quran. From the same chapter, "You may fight in the cause of GOD those who fight you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. (2:190). It's funny because the verse you quote is 2:191, not 2:190. It is a continuation, when read in contact it makes sense. First it says, do not be the aggressors, then it says, if you are attacked, then fight fight back you have full right. Nothing wrong with that. And then it follows to say that if they stop attacking, so should you.

"If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (2:192)

"If they seek peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. (8:61)

As for 3:118, I don't know where you got that translation. A better translation is "O you who believe, do not befriend outsiders who never cease to wish you harm; they even wish to see you suffer." This isn't talking about some random non-Muslim, this was talking specifically about those who mocked and attacked faith and the Muslim people. It is clear from the context if you read the verses around it. The same message is reiterated in a different part where it is even more clear what the context is.

O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture and the disbelievers who mock and ridicule your religion. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers. (5:57)

When you call to the Contact Prayers (Salat), they mock and ridicule it. This is because they are people who do not understand. (5:58)

The italicized parts are important as it is specifically talking about those who are outwardly aggressive towards the Muslim community. For you to imply that the Quran actually is implying that Muslims should not associate with non-Muslims is ridiculous. Muhammad's own uncle who he lived with for a long time was a non-Muslim!

I realize that neogaf is full of hardcore atheists who despise all religions, but for anyone to claim that the Quran preaches hate is either being very disingenuous or just ignorant of the whole text.

 

[Azih]

Bravo to Riz. Quotes from the Quran are taken so severely out of context it's not even amusing. And Kintari, my cousin is a hardcore atheist and grew up in Pakistan without any problems, these issues are not as widespread as you may think.

 

[Atrus]

First it says, do not be the aggressors, then it says, if you are attacked, then fight fight back you have full right. Nothing wrong with that.

for anyone to claim that the Quran preaches hate is either being very disingenuous or just ignorant of the whole text.

Not true. The problem with religious belief is the parsing. To you, attack means direct and physical affront to the individual, but to others it can be any sort of preceived slight to the religion. After all, if this so-called perfect word of God were actually useful or well... perfect, there'd be no need to ban a number of Muslims on the forum.

Some of those phrases in the Quran do preach hate, namely intolerance in both the name calling and the calls for aggression which is excercised to varying degrees by practioners.

The book uses militant language and it is unavoidable that militarism will continually spawn for as long as those phrases continue to exist. You could argue that the religion doesn't create lunatics, but one cannot argue that lunatics are certainly drawn to the religion with a fairly common mindset of martyrdom, murder, misogyny, and misanthropy.

Nonsense begets nonsense. It's unfortunate that the portrayal of God is one so stupid it apparently cannot ensure that the misreadings some claim is being done are impossible. I'm pretty sure David Eddings one upped Allah in the intelligence department when he created the Mrin Codex for his own fiction.

 

[Kinitari]

Bravo to Riz. Quotes from the Quran are taken so severely out of context it's not even amusing. And Kintari, my cousin is a hardcore atheist and grew up in Pakistan without any problems, these issues are not as widespread as you may think.

That actually makes me feel good to hear. I worry about that sort of thing from time to time, especially considering some clerics stance on apostacy, but if it's all just hot-air then let them debate the fate of an apostate from here to high water.

 

[epitome]

The problem is that non of that is taken out of context. If you honestly think it is You are also an unbeliever yourself. Any Muslim country will gladly prove you wrong. Thinking that the majority of Muslims feel this way is grossly wrong. They are in a war with infidels/unbelievers. Do you think martyrdom is some kind of fringe group no its not its every day this is how we do shit. Mercy killings, kill the infidels, kill the un believers, and you will be rewarded. If you do nothing you wont. If you help them you will be killed also. Change your mind about Islam death to you also. This is the majority of the faithful. Nothing is out of context all of it is in perfect context.

Look at it this way, remember when the Church would kill everyone on this board for not accepting the bible as the word of god ? and they took everything in it literal ? And if you disagreed you kept it to yourself and hoped no one questioned you or else you guess it Death is your reward?

Well that is currently Islam, the major difference now though is its 2009, and we have all kind of new ways to kill the enemy. Ways that would wreck the earth as we know it.

That is the problem western modern civilization faces.

 

[Darackutny]

No I haven't actually.

Oh? The very way in which people learn how to learn the Qur'an comes mainly from the Hafs 'an Asim chain. You should look it up, or instead, you could just go ahead and claim that there is no proper way to read the Qur'an.

 

[Zapages]

The problem is that non of that is taken out of context. If you honestly think it is You are also an unbeliever yourself. Any Muslim country will gladly prove you wrong. Thinking that the majority of Muslims feel this way is grossly wrong. They are in a war with infidels/unbelievers. Do you think martyrdom is some kind of fringe group no its not its every day this is how we do shit. Mercy killings, kill the infidels, kill the un believers, and you will be rewarded. If you do nothing you wont. If you help them you will be killed also. Change your mind about Islam death to you also. This is the majority of the faithful. Nothing is out of context all of it is in perfect context.

Look at it this way, remember when the Church would kill everyone on this board for not accepting the bible as the word of god ? and they took everything in it literal ? And if you disagreed you kept it to yourself and hoped no one questioned you or else you guess it Death is your reward?

Well that is currently Islam, the major difference now though is its 2009, and we have all kind of new ways to kill the enemy. Ways that would wreck the earth as we know it.

That is the problem western modern civilization faces.

Just a sound of advice to the Junior Member... If you ever want to have your tag actually say member one day. I would ease up on your views here. Its your interruption of Islam.

You can't force Islam on anyone that's not how Islam was spread nor will it ever. It was spread due to the good treatment of their people. There are many examples how Prophet Muhammad PBUH forgave his enemy after winning the major battle. Also how Prophet Muhammad PBUH went to check on old lady who used to throw trash all over Prohphet Muhammad PBUH. See that's how Islam was spread aka kindness, not through brutality or killing people or fellow Muslims who differed from your views. This is true for any religion out there, the religion grew because the followers of the religion showed kindness to other people of their own and non-believers of their faith.

 

[Azih]

Oh? The very way in which people learn how to learn the Qur'an comes mainly from the Hafs 'an Asim chain

Learn how to learn?

 

[Azih]

The problem is that non of that is taken out of context. If you honestly think it is You are also an unbeliever yourself. Any Muslim country will gladly prove you wrong. Thinking that the majority of Muslims feel this way is grossly wrong. They are in a war with infidels/unbelievers. Do you think martyrdom is some kind of fringe group no its not its every day this is how we do shit. Mercy killings, kill the infidels, kill the un believers, and you will be rewarded. If you do nothing you wont. If you help them you will be killed also. Change your mind about Islam death to you also. This is the majority of the faithful. Nothing is out of context all of it is in perfect context.

Look at it this way, remember when the Church would kill everyone on this board for not accepting the bible as the word of god ? and they took everything in it literal ? And if you disagreed you kept it to yourself and hoped no one questioned you or else you guess it Death is your reward?

Well that is currently Islam, the major difference now though is its 2009, and we have all kind of new ways to kill the enemy. Ways that would wreck the earth as we know it.

That is the problem western modern civilization faces.

You really should look up a book called "Who speaks for Islam. What a billion muslims really think", it's based on actual scholarship... your post is just the worst kind of stereotyping.

 

[Darackutny]

Learn how to learn?

Learn how to read*... <__<
------------------
Also, about the whole killing non-Muslims thing:

Al-Bukhari narrated:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever kills a mu’aahid will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, even though its fragrance may detected from a distance of forty days.’

A mu'aahid is one that you have an alliance with... pretty much every country that falls in the UN apparently.

 

[Azih]

Learn how to read*... <__<.

So there's really only one appropriate way to read the Quran? How did the authours of Hafs 'an Asim gain this exclusive franchise from God?

 

[Azih]

That actually makes me feel good to hear. I worry about that sort of thing from time to time, especially considering some clerics stance on apostacy, but if it's all just hot-air then let them debate the fate of an apostate from here to high water.

You have to go to the most oppressive and backward areas of the muslim world to run into that kind of shit. Afghanistan, the areas of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan for example.

 

[Azih]

After all, if this so-called perfect word of God were actually useful or well... perfect, there'd be no need to ban a number of Muslims on the forum.

The Quran doesn't claim perfection on how *humans* follow the word.

Some of those phrases in the Quran do preach hate, namely intolerance in both the name calling and the calls for aggression which is excercised to varying degrees by practioners.

And those phrases always refer to self defense or conduct in war and then call for pacifism and tolerance in peacetime.

Now self defense is a concept that, necessary as it is, is ridiculously easy to abuse.

Quote from Hermann Goering: "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

That the same holds true for the Islamic conception of self defense doesn't say anything about Islam. It says a whole lot about humans.

but one cannot argue that lunatics are certainly drawn to the religion with a fairly common mindset of martyrdom, murder, misogyny, and misanthropy.

Yes I can. I refer you to "Who speaks for Islam."by John Esposito and Dalia Mogahed.

 

[Darackutny]

So there's really only one appropriate way to read the Quran? How did the authours of Hafs 'an Asim gain this exclusive franchise from God?

Actually, the Qur'an was revealed in several tongues, that fit in well with several Arabic dialects. The narration of Hafs is one of the ten. I'm surprised that you're not familiar with the name, especially since you hold the Qur'an as the only authority.

 

[nib95]

The problem is that non of that is taken out of context. If you honestly think it is You are also an unbeliever yourself. Any Muslim country will gladly prove you wrong. Thinking that the majority of Muslims feel this way is grossly wrong. They are in a war with infidels/unbelievers. Do you think martyrdom is some kind of fringe group no its not its every day this is how we do shit. Mercy killings, kill the infidels, kill the un believers, and you will be rewarded. If you do nothing you wont. If you help them you will be killed also. Change your mind about Islam death to you also. This is the majority of the faithful. Nothing is out of context all of it is in perfect context.

Look at it this way, remember when the Church would kill everyone on this board for not accepting the bible as the word of god ? and they took everything in it literal ? And if you disagreed you kept it to yourself and hoped no one questioned you or else you guess it Death is your reward?

Well that is currently Islam, the major difference now though is its 2009, and we have all kind of new ways to kill the enemy. Ways that would wreck the earth as we know it.

That is the problem western modern civilization faces.

You're making a mistake that many un-educated in Islam make, which is confuse Hadith (which was often law of the land at the time) with actual Quranic verses. My guess is you pulled most of the above lines from some anti-Islamic site, since I am having difficulty confirming the translations and exact phrases.

In any case, on the example you mentioned about the killing of apostates (those who turn away Islam). Whilst that may have been, and in some Islamic countries still is the law, it is NOT what is written in the Quran itself. Law of the land exists to set about specific rules required for specific controls at whatever point in history. At the time Islam was expanding, a slightly sterner set of laws was required to ensure it's adequate growth.

When you are fighting a war to spread your religion, the last thing you want is to open the flood gates for possible problem areas. Allowing people to turn away from Islam in those days could have been extremely detrimental to Islams overall success. But it was something that was done at the time for the reasons discussed (not that I agree with them).

Again however, I have to highlight the fact that this is not what is written in the Qur'an. No where in the Qur'an does it say to kill or harm infidels, non-believers or apostates. Only that God disapproves of them. We (as individuals) however, are not given the task to deal the punishments, that is decided by the law of the land and by God himself on the day of judgement.

We are only allowed to have a Fatwa (an opinion) and nothing more.

Back to the Apostates thing. I'd just like to phrase this sentence from the Qur'an, that does indeed confirm that the killing of apostates is something that was linked to only law of the land and not ordained by the Qur'an itself.

"There is no compulsion in religion" 2:256

"Let him who will believe it and let him who will reject it" 18:29

"Those who believe then reject faith then believe (again) and (again) reject faith and go on in increasing unbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way." 4:137


Now tell me, why would the Quran suggest that one can denounce Islam multiple times? Simple, because the Quran itself does not permit the death of apostates (nor infidels), that again, is something that was set about by Hadith, which unfortunately is often confused with simple law of the land at the time.

And another point on infidels...

"Lo! Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve." (2:62)

There is also another sentence in the Quran that says non-believers can enter paradise whilst a Muslim can still end up in Hell. I just don't have it off hand with me right now, I have a page cornered in my Quranic translation somewhere. I'm not saying the Quran looks fondly on non-believers, but how we deal with them is not expressed in the Quran. In-fact, murder of any kind is completely haram (disallowed). You certainly can't go around killing non-believers or apostates, and no where does it say you will be rewarded for that either. As I said before, Allah decides that on the day of judgement, not us laymen. I think you should try and get a new angle on Islam, since your current sources offer a very anti-Islamic exaggerated distortion of things. We shouldn't keep confusing the verses of the Quran itself, and boundaries of law (of the land) with Hadith.


.

 

[RiZ III]

The problem is that non of that is taken out of context. If you honestly think it is You are also an unbeliever yourself. Any Muslim country will gladly prove you wrong. Thinking that the majority of Muslims feel this way is grossly wrong. They are in a war with infidels/unbelievers. Do you think martyrdom is some kind of fringe group no its not its every day this is how we do shit. Mercy killings, kill the infidels, kill the un believers, and you will be rewarded. If you do nothing you wont. If you help them you will be killed also. Change your mind about Islam death to you also. This is the majority of the faithful. Nothing is out of context all of it is in perfect context.

Have you ever been to a Muslim country??? Seems like your only source of information is Fox News. Mercy/Honor killings are not unique in Muslim countries, that practice has pre-dated Islam in modern day Muslim countries and so in parts of those countries it continues to exist. It happens in Hindu areas of India for example. Does the Indian govt condone it? Do the majority of Indians condone it? No. The same thing could easily happen in America or anywhere else if law was not enforced. There would be many more Mathew Sheperds. It's not the fault of the religion, it is the fault of the governments not controlling their country. Did Jesus tell his followers to kill anyone? Does the New Testament ask it's followers to persecute and start inquisitions? It isn't the religion, it is a mindset and it is in every community regardless of religion.

How many millions did the atheist communists murder in the 20th century? Stalin alone killed over 10 million. Mao Zedong killed millions. Pol-Pot killed a million. Hitler killed many millions more. How come? If they were Christian, Jews, or Muslims, would you then blame religion instead of the person? Religion doesn't create lunatics, human's breed and raise lunatics with or without religion. How much freedom and prosperity was there in the Communist revolution? The Christians persecuted men of other faiths, so did the atheist Communists, and they did it on a much larger scale! If you're view of the Muslim world was correct, the people of Pakistan would not be behind their military right now as they are fighting the Taliban. The overwhelming majority of people there, and I know since I am my self Pakistani and was there about a month ago, despise the Taliban and religious hardliners.

Extremists, which are actually just revolutionaries within the Muslim world, have existed since the very beginning of Islam. The Kharjites for example, the Assassins in the middle ages, and many thanks to the CIA we now have the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. They have never been a majority and have never spoken for the Muslim world. Unfortunately in the current world, the Muslim world is so deep in corruption and divided among itself politically, that the rebellion within their own countries have gone international.

The Quran certainly uses harsh language against non-Muslims, but it never encourages to persecute or mistreat others. The harsh language is from God to man, his message for man to man is not the same. To be fair and just, not to be aggressors or oppressors, not to kick people out of their homes, to control our hatred, to have patience, to feed the orphans, to free slaves, to provide for the needy, to stand up for justice even if it is against your own family. That is what the Quran teaches. If Muslims don't uphold those values, is not God's problem or God's fault. It is our own problem. Clearly it is our problem! For over a thousand years the Islamic world flourished. Our history is not riddled with persecutions and mass murders. It was the Muslims who gave shelter to the Jews through the Inquisition. Now our countries are full of corruption and lack of education, we are humiliated and shamed. It is not God's teachings which have brought us here, it is our own mistakes, corruption, and hatred. It is our problem, not Gods.

 

[Azih]

Actually, the Qur'an was revealed in several tongues, that fit in well with several Arabic dialects. The narration of Hafs is one of the ten. I'm surprised that you're not familiar with the name, especially since you hold the Qur'an as the only authority.

I am unsure what relevance that has to the authenticity of the Quran. Which is where this discussion started.

 

[Darackutny]

I am unsure what relevance that has to the authenticity of the Quran. Which is where this discussion started.

Multiple narrations supported by multiple chains of narrations that are in agreement doesn't seem relevant when supporting the argument of the authenticity of the Qur'an to you?

 

[Azih]

Multiple narrations supported by multiple chains of narrations that are in agreement doesn't seem relevant when supporting the argument of the authenticity of the Qur'an to you?

I have no reason to trust the narrators in the chains so actually no it doesn't.

 

[RiZ III]

Actually, the Qur'an was revealed in several tongues, that fit in well with several Arabic dialects. The narration of Hafs is one of the ten. I'm surprised that you're not familiar with the name, especially since you hold the Qur'an as the only authority.

This claim is somewhat bogus. There are traditions and hadiths which were very obviously created to cover up the fact that there were two slightly different versions of the Quran. To say that the Warsh and Hafs both go back to Muhammad is ridiculous, not only because the Quran clearly states that it has been revealed in "a clear Arabic tongue", which clearly implies a singular tongue, but also because the problem of having different versions of the Quran went unabated until the 11th century! It was only then that Al-Tabari conveniently found a hadith claiming that the Quran actually came in 7 different dialects. This was just an easy way to side step the problem. And actually, Al-Tabari excepted 8 dialects, not the 7 mentioned in this hadith, and later scholars increased it to ten. What happened here was obvious, after five centuries of mostly oral transmission in a very large empire with different languages and dialects, there came to be Qurans which varied in some places. Hey who woulda thought!

 

[Darackutny]

This claim is somewhat bogus. There are traditions and hadiths which were very obviously created to cover up the fact that there were two slightly different versions of the Quran. To say that the Warsh and Hafs both go back to Muhammad is ridiculous, not only because the Quran clearly states that it has been revealed in "a clear Arabic tongue", which clearly implies a singular tongue, but also because the problem of having different versions of the Quran went unabated until the 11th century! It was only then that Al-Tabari conveniently found a hadith claiming that the Quran actually came in 7 different dialects. This was just an easy way to side step the problem. And actually, Al-Tabari excepted 8 dialects, not the 7 mentioned in this hadith, and later scholars increased it to ten. What happened here was obvious, after five centuries of mostly oral transmission in a very large empire with different languages and dialects, there came to be Qurans which varied in some places. Hey who woulda thought!

Ironically, Al-Tabari lived in the third century. =)

 

[RiZ III]

Ironically, Al-Tabari lived in the third century. =)

There has been more than one Tabari lol. It was Abu Ma’shar whose full name I remember being Abu Ma’shar Al-Tabari, but now I can't find a reference to his full name. Either way Ab Ma'shar(1056 ad) wrote a book on the subject Al-Talkhees Fi Qiraat Al-Thaman. There were many others as well.

Here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=R2...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA85,M1

 

[Darackutny]

There has been more than one Tabari lol. It was Abu Ma’shar whose full name I remember being Abu Ma’shar Al-Tabari, but now I can't find a reference to his full name. Either way Ab Ma'shar(1056 ad) wrote a book on the subject Al-Talkhees Fi Qiraat Al-Thaman. There were many others as well.

Here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=R2...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA85,M1

Well, coincidentally, Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari, in his tafseer mentions the different qira'aat as well. Once again... third century scholar.

 

[epitome]

Have you ever been to a Muslim country??? Seems like your only source of information is Fox News. Mercy/Honor killings are not unique in Muslim countries, that practice has pre-dated Islam in modern day Muslim countries and so in parts of those countries it continues to exist. It happens in Hindu areas of India for example. Does the Indian govt condone it? Do the majority of Indians condone it? No. The same thing could easily happen in America or anywhere else if law was not enforced. There would be many more Mathew Sheperds. It's not the fault of the religion, it is the fault of the governments not controlling their country. Did Jesus tell his followers to kill anyone? Does the New Testament ask it's followers to persecute and start inquisitions? It isn't the religion, it is a mindset and it is in every community regardless of religion.

How many millions did the atheist communists murder in the 20th century? Stalin alone killed over 10 million. Mao Zedong killed millions. Pol-Pot killed a million. Hitler killed many millions more. How come? If they were Christian, Jews, or Muslims, would you then blame religion instead of the person? Religion doesn't create lunatics, human's breed and raise lunatics with or without religion. How much freedom and prosperity was there in the Communist revolution? The Christians persecuted men of other faiths, so did the atheist Communists, and they did it on a much larger scale! If you're view of the Muslim world was correct, the people of Pakistan would not be behind their military right now as they are fighting the Taliban. The overwhelming majority of people there, and I know since I am my self Pakistani and was there about a month ago, despise the Taliban and religious hardliners.

Extremists, which are actually just revolutionaries within the Muslim world, have existed since the very beginning of Islam. The Kharjites for example, the Assassins in the middle ages, and many thanks to the CIA we now have the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. They have never been a majority and have never spoken for the Muslim world. Unfortunately in the current world, the Muslim world is so deep in corruption and divided among itself politically, that the rebellion within their own countries have gone international.

The Quran certainly uses harsh language against non-Muslims, but it never encourages to persecute or mistreat others. The harsh language is from God to man, his message for man to man is not the same. To be fair and just, not to be aggressors or oppressors, not to kick people out of their homes, to control our hatred, to have patience, to feed the orphans, to free slaves, to provide for the needy, to stand up for justice even if it is against your own family. That is what the Quran teaches. If Muslims don't uphold those values, is not God's problem or God's fault. It is our own problem. Clearly it is our problem! For over a thousand years the Islamic world flourished. Our history is not riddled with persecutions and mass murders. It was the Muslims who gave shelter to the Jews through the Inquisition. Now our countries are full of corruption and lack of education, we are humiliated and shamed. It is not God's teachings which have brought us here, it is our own mistakes, corruption, and hatred. It is our problem, not Gods.

Isnt condoning something the same as not enforcing? Religions to teach and tell there followers to do these things. Have you ever looked at the Old Testament? The Koran and its Hadith? In defense of Islam is the way, at this current state of affairs just about anything is seen as in defense of Islam. Would you condone the killing of another in defense of Islam? Muslims gave shelter to the Jews, followed by a state of apartheid,
My views dont stem from some fox new propaganda or anti Islam website, I am anti Islam I am anti any religion. Hitler was not an atheist, also the bible is more than likely where his and most others hate toward Jews stems. To say that Mao, Pol-Pot,Hitler etc killed millions "because" they were atheists is completely wrong. Religious beliefs have killed far many and they killed because of the beliefs in said religions. It is God's teachings that have brought us here.

 

[epitome]

Just a sound of advice to the Junior Member... If you ever want to have your tag actually say member one day. I would ease up on your views here. Its your interruption of Islam.

You can't force Islam on anyone that's not how Islam was spread nor will it ever. It was spread due to the good treatment of their people. There are many examples how Prophet Muhammad PBUH forgave his enemy after winning the major battle. Also how Prophet Muhammad PBUH went to check on old lady who used to throw trash all over Prohphet Muhammad PBUH. See that's how Islam was spread aka kindness, not through brutality or killing people or fellow Muslims who differed from your views. This is true for any religion out there, the religion grew because the followers of the religion showed kindness to other people of their own and non-believers of their faith.

Your view is you cant force Islam or other religions on anyone and thats not how it was spread but if you take a look at history, it will have a different view. Fighting wars and winning and creating empires this is how religions spread. Followed by rules that allow that religion to flourish.

 

[Azih]

Your view is you cant force Islam or other religions on anyone and thats not how it was spread but if you take a look at history, it will have a different view. Fighting wars and winning and creating empires this is how religions spread. Followed by rules that allow that religion to flourish.

Your history is as shallow and distorted as your understanding of contemporary muslims. You really should look up the book I referred you to, and add to it "No God but God" by Reza Aslan. Honestly dude, your sources are terrrrrrible.

Christianity and Islam are the only religions which spread widely in history and there was no conquering at all in the first centuries of Christanity so I have no idea how you came up with your theory.

Also one of the most significant conversions to Islam were of the Mongols who conquered Islamic lands and then converted. The exact opposite of what you are claiming

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

It's no secret that God will have no love for atheists and polytheists on the day of judgment. Most of those verses quoted are about what will happen to these people in the afterlife. No where does that imply that Muslims should treat them badly. "Don't let you hatred for a people lead you to be unjust" is what the Quran says. As for 216-218, these are the most popular verses used to claim that the Quran tells Muslims to kill non-Believers. Truth is that these are verses dealing with war. Yes, in a time of war, a Muslim must join the cause of the country. What's wrong with that? This doesn't relate as much in modern day as all Muslim countries have armies, so you just join the army if you want. These verses were referring to Muslims who refused to fight to defend the Muslim community, which wasn't big at the time. If they wouldn't fight for the Muslims, who would?

Aggression is neither recommended or promoted in the Quran. From the same chapter, "You may fight in the cause of GOD those who fight you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. (2:190). It's funny because the verse you quote is 2:191, not 2:190. It is a continuation, when read in contact it makes sense. First it says, do not be the aggressors, then it says, if you are attacked, then fight fight back you have full right. Nothing wrong with that. And then it follows to say that if they stop attacking, so should you.

"If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (2:192)

"If they seek peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. (8:61)

As for 3:118, I don't know where you got that translation. A better translation is "O you who believe, do not befriend outsiders who never cease to wish you harm; they even wish to see you suffer." This isn't talking about some random non-Muslim, this was talking specifically about those who mocked and attacked faith and the Muslim people. It is clear from the context if you read the verses around it. The same message is reiterated in a different part where it is even more clear what the context is.

O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture and the disbelievers who mock and ridicule your religion. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers. (5:57)

When you call to the Contact Prayers (Salat), they mock and ridicule it. This is because they are people who do not understand. (5:58)

The italicized parts are important as it is specifically talking about those who are outwardly aggressive towards the Muslim community. For you to imply that the Quran actually is implying that Muslims should not associate with non-Muslims is ridiculous. Muhammad's own uncle who he lived with for a long time was a non-Muslim!

I realize that neogaf is full of hardcore atheists who despise all religions, but for anyone to claim that the Quran preaches hate is either being very disingenuous or just ignorant of the whole text.

thank for clearing some things up, i did a sincere question.

i guess the Quran suffers from the same thing the Bible suffers from; not being clear enough and waaaay too open to interpretation.

 

[Azih]

thank for clearing some things up, i did a sincere question.

i guess the Quran suffers from the same thing the Bible suffers from; not being clear enough and waaaay too open to interpretation.

Everything ever written is completely open to interpretation. Hell board game rules which try to be as anally precise as possible fall prey to rule lawyering and rule disputes all the time. Taking verses from the quran and completely failing to mention the verses right before and right after them is just completely completely dishonest.

And even extremist muslims don't claim the absurdly simplistic "kill the infidel!!" motivations ascribed to them by commentators with ridiculously selective quotes. They claim political goals of the form "Get the hell out Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan" or "Stop propping up tinpot western puppet dictators like Shah of Iran/Hosni Mubarak"

 

[Azih]

Excellent thread for Islam converts/reverts like myself. I completely feel the first post. I feel left to dry by the community.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=732

Ah, sorry to hear about that Himu. The Muslim community is just extremely fragmented and disorganised pretty much everywhere. A lot of it is just more interested in communal traditions rather than theology and there's rarely any priest like leader in a mosque.

 

[Instigator]

Excellent thread for Islam converts/reverts like myself. I completely feel the first post. I feel left to dry by the community.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=732

The folks at Turntoislam are weird though. There's more censorship, deletions and thread locks there than at GAF. And I am not talking about troll control.

 

[Azih]

There are some mosques like that but honestly I think the issue is that mosques here are never really the center of a community like churches are; they're just places to go pray mostly with extended families making up the rest of the social fabric. Plus there's just a lot fewer people who are much more scattered and a much weaker resulting infrastructure for all this.

But like I said, there are mosques with committed leadership out there, plus there's these kinds of organisations that take up some of the slack:

http://www.campnet.net/

They're pretty active in my city and are pretty good, anything near you?

 

[Azih]

Nope. None in Houston, Texas.

Man Houston has a ton of muslims though, and some of the other chapters seemed to have ground to a halt around 2005. Man.

Can someone clear something up for me? Are dogs REALLY considered that unclean or impure? People say you can't keep an animal for companionship (why?) but they allow you to keep cats? Why? Because the prophet did? That seems backwards and hypocritical?

Nothing in the Quran to support it.

While this has nothing to do with why I reject the Hadith/Sunnah, most of the weirdest, most rigid things found in Islam come from them.

But I'm a cat person in any case.

 

[Nemo]

Man Houston has a ton of muslims though, and some of the other chapters seemed to have ground to a halt around 2005. Man.



Nothing in the Quran to support it.

While this has nothing to do with why I reject the Hadith/Sunnah, most of the weirdest, most rigid things found in Islam come from them.

But I'm a cat person in any case.

Exactly, pretty much most of the stuff you hear today comes from them. Hadith isn't the word of God.

 

[Instigator]

Well, they're better than ummah.com's forums, where they are like BOYCOTT KFC or something because they support Israel. Or how about those animated gifs with people in a burqa with bombs strapped to them, or the ones with obviously Islamic dudes with guns?

I was absolutely disgusted by the anti-semitic attitude on that forum, and militaristic nature of it.

I guess that's one way to look at it, relatively-speaking... :lol

I just couldn't put up with turntoislam, on a purely objective basis. I don't think the forums you can or can not use should dictate your faith, but considering your already liberal, Western attitudes over some issues, you're bound to get in trouble with a rather strict, close-minded religious forum. A great deal of forum users are also conservative, non-Westerners which doesn't help-

So for laid-back Islam, it's best to fall back on GAF!

 

[Azih]

On facebook maybe you can look up the Canadian Muslim Union and/or the Muslim Canadian Congress. Obviously not in your neck of the woods, but you may be able to build contacts from there.

 

[Instigator]

Yeah, the Muslims on those other forums are creepos.

I made an account at turntoislam.com and they moderate every single post. Make a post? Wait till the admin approves it! wtf?

I told you they were weird.

Don't mention Wikipedia or anything linked from the site! 'Wiki is against Islam' so they won't allow it.

 

[ice cream]

Welll in the respected hadith(s), sorry can't remember which one, it says you can can't keep dogs inside or rooms which you pray in because their saliva is really dirty or something like that. Like I have a friend who recently got a dog and since his mom is quite religious, they built like a shed/hut or whatever it is outside for him (with heating and all that jazz).

I told you they were weird.

Don't mention Wikipedia or anything linked from the site! 'Wiki is against Islam' so they won't allow it.

:lol :lol are you serious?!
man people like these are the ones who give muslims bad names.

And yes, the Muslim world is in a really bad state. There is no "ummah", no unity. Most of the leaders of our country are corrupt. If you're into all the prediction stuff, the reason Muslims are getting attacked on is because how we're behaving, corrupting the religion. We are being embarrassed by rest of the world.

 

[ice cream]

Yeah but we don't have a tongues out all day dripping saliva around the house.

 

[RiZ III]

Nope. None in Houston, Texas.

Can someone clear something up for me? Are dogs REALLY considered that unclean or impure? People say you can't keep an animal for companionship (why?) but they allow you to keep cats? Why? Because the prophet did? That seems backwards and hypocritical?

No they aren't unclean or impure. This concept comes from the hadith. The Quran, on the other hand talks about the sleepers in the cave (sura 18) as having a dog, inside their dwelling place and allows meat killed by hunting dogs. Obviously if we can eat meat of animals killed by hunting dogs, we are allowed to have dogs! There is nothing in the Quran, which even remotely suggests that dogs are unclean as pets.