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Official Islamic Thread

Zapages said:
You do realize that every single Abrahamic religion discusses violence... So I don't really get what you are getting at all aside from repeating yourself over and over again.

proving that it is not a peaceful religion as many here claim that it is.

The fact that Islam is not the only violent religion doesn't in any way make it less violent, so there is no need to bring that up in this discussion.
 

Stridone

Banned
crazy monkey said:
hi. Islam holds that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) over a period of approximately twenty-three years. your first mistake I guess.

How does that change what I said? I've seen you avoid relevant points alot in this thread (see: Nizar), maybe you should just give up.
 
Althane said:
Well, that's what you hold. And he holds that it is "a book of fairytales written by a hallucinating man that claimed to be talking to god".

And to be fair, I can see where the hallucinating part comes from. I mean, being completely honest, if you saw a man talking about how God had him, and was saying strange things, professing to have a new religion, wouldn't YOU think he was completely off his rocker, or on drugs?

To be fair everyone thought even during that era same thing as you did, some people believed him. Every year there are many guys who claim to be talking to god. How many of them can write koran.
 

Zapages

Member
Nizar said:
proving that it is not a peaceful religion as many here claim that it is.

The fact that Islam is not the only violent religion doesn't in any way make it less violent, so there is no need to bring that up in this discussion.


You are just repeating yourself here. What are you trying to prove here! Yes there is need to state the fact about all religions, because you just ignoring rest of religions and are repeating yourself here and it is getting boring. So there is discussion on how to deal with violence in Islam... So what!

Nizar said:
Now why don't you stop discussing the credibility of wikipedia and the existence of dark mater and focus on what is being discussed here.

In the last 5 pages or so I have pointed out and proven the following:

Islam is not a peaceful religion but a violent one.

Creationism in the Quran is false.

Faith is not a reliable tool to reach the true religion.

Arabic grammar error exists in the Quran.

I am still waiting for the Muslims in here to prove me wrong.

Go ahead live in your own little world...:lol

Because you don't listen to anyone except yourself...
 

ice cream

Banned
If you really want to get proper answers go to talk to some Islamic scholars. I hope you don't take a discussion from a gaming forum to shape your views on islam.
 

Azih

Member
ice cream said:
If you really want to get proper answers go to talk to some Islamic scholars. I hope you don't take a discussion from a gaming forum to shape your views on islam.
Most 'Islamic scholars' are pretty ignorant though.
 

Azih

Member
SmokyDave said:
I suspect it is because one of those religions repeatedly refers to itself as "The Religion Of Peace".
And that all started as a reaction to one of those religions being repeatedly referred to as a violent religion. A religion that advocates terrorism. *shrug* The point remains that by the standards Nizar is using any religion that isn't absolutely and completely pacifist is a violent one, which is not a reasonable standard.
 

heidern

Junior Member
Nizar said:
...I have pointed out and proven the following:

Islam is not a peaceful religion but a violent one.

Sorry, but you have not disproven the statement that Islam is a peaceful religion, since that statement is based on a relative definition of violence within a context of being a complete way of life.

Nizar said:
Now since his philosophy speaks of violence, even though it is justified according to him, it makes it a violent philosophy, but if his philosophy didn't preach on violence then it can't be considered a violent one.

Sure, Hitler has a violent philosophy. So do you. So does Islam and every other major religion. So does every country with any military. So does anyone else that would consider the use of violence in the right circumstances(probably like 99% of people on this planet). You haven't proven anything of value.
 

Althane

Member
heidern said:
Sure, Hitler has a violent philosophy. So do you. So does Islam and every other major religion. So does every country with any military. So does anyone else that would consider the use of violence in the right circumstances(probably like 99% of people on this planet). You haven't proven anything of value.

Every other religion?

I believe Jesus' quote was: "And if a brother happens to pimpsmack you in thine face, then you shall not retaliate, but rather, turn your cheek."

Jesus never really said "Go kill those peeps". Muhammad warred upon other people.

If we're comparing founders, Jesus' peace level is a few ranks higher than M's.
 
Nuh (Noah)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Musa (Moses)
Isa (Jesus)
Muhammad

All of them are considered prophets in Islam. Each of them were quite different. Each of them believed in same god.
 

SUPREME1

Banned
crazy monkey said:
Nuh (Noah)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Musa (Moses)
Isa (Jesus)
Muhammad

All of them are considered prophets in Islam. Each of them were quite different. Each of them believed in same god.



Which if these was a killer of men?
 
V.2:62 "Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

V.2:135 "And they say, 'Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided.' Say (to them O Muhammad محمّد), 'Nay (we follow) only the religion of Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Hanîfa [Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allâh (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn (those who worshiped others along with Allâh -- see V.2:105).'"

V.2:139 "Say (O Muhammad محمّد to the Jews and Christians), 'Dispute you with us about Allâh while He is our Lord and your Lord? And we are to be rewarded for our deeds and you for your deeds. And we are sincere to Him [in worship and obedience (i.e. we worship Him Alone and none else, and we obey His Orders)].'"

V.2:140 "Or say you that Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ'îl (Ishmael), Ishâq (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] were Jews or Christians? Say, 'Do you know better or does Allâh (know better...that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony [i.e. to believe in Prophet Muhammad محمّد when he comes, as is written in their Books. (See Verse 7:157)] he has from Allâh? And Allâh is not unaware of what you do.'"

some verse regarding christen and Jews
 
The Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad

"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds."

This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' (in Mecca).

After praising, and thanking God he said:

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. God has judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived...

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people".
 
crazy monkey said:
I am right here.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be change this:

The Nizar apostasy took root and now Muslims are scrambling to flee, unable to properly defend their former stronghold.

GAF Muslims need their biggest spokesmen back. Pity they are all banned.
 
Instigator said:
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be change this:



GAF Muslims need their biggest spokesmen back. Pity they are all banned.

What do we need to defend? one Muslim or more it does not matter. I already talked about violence with him. Other topic I don't have much knowledge, may be you can explain me dark matter and wimp's, black holes, different universes , other dimensions and all those crazy equations.
 

jehuty

Member
Correct me if i'm wrong, But in revelations isn't Jesus supposed to show up at the battle of apocalypse and whipe all of the enemy out? If so, isn't that Jesus being violent?
 
crazy monkey said:
What do we need to defend? one Muslim or more it does not matter. I already talked about violence with him. Other topic I don't have much knowledge, may be you can explain me dark matter and wimp's, black holes, different universes , other dimensions and all those crazy equations.

Nazir is certainly right when he claims he hasn't received a real rebuttal to these points:

Creationism in the Quran is false.

Faith is not a reliable tool to reach the true religion.

Arabic grammar error exists in the Quran.

The last two points require absolutely no scientific knowledge to be courtered. Simply laughing it all off a la Zapages is not a rebuttal either.

That's why I think the true Muslim masters at GAF need to return because no one currently unbanned is able to properly challenge Nizar.
 
Nizar said:

Ok lets assume that Islam according to you is not a peaceful religion, ok, its not, now what? The people who believe it is peaceful do as much as you feel it is violent. I see that you will not change your mind no matter what people say and you have just as much faith Islam is not the true religion as much as the Muslims know Islam is the only way of life.

Arabic grammar argument is useless, you need to speak to a MASTER of arabic to argue with that. I'm sure it has been refuted since for 1400 years and counting, no one has found a mistake in the Quran. Just because you can't find it on youtube, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Speak to a Islamic scholar who is a master of the language and they will refute that point.

The arabs at the time when the Quran was revealed to Mohammed [peace be upon him] were masters of the language, that was their field, do you not think someone would have found that mistake back then and spread it the world over. There are no errors in the Quran and neogaf and youtube is not the place to debate about it because none of us our experts.
 

Althane

Member
crazy monkey said:
and? What will you prove?

Well, if Muhammad committed violence in the name of his religion, we've got proof that Islam hasn't really changed in its lifetime, since you've got people committing violence in its name now... therefore Islam could be considered a religion of violence because people keep on loving to do violence in its name.
 

Zapages

Member
Instigator said:
That's why I think the true Muslim masters at GAF need to return because no one currently unbanned is able to properly challenge Nizar.

The situation is like this we don't want to get banned plain and simple. Also Nizar arguments are weak and he's just trolling. Like the other one has stated, so what and that's what I am saying as well. So what?! All of his sources seem to be biased, while I found something from a simple islamic website that has no agenda except for educate people about Islam. He dismisses it and goes on ranting... So its not point to argue with him because he does not listen civilly to the counter arguments that we are presenting... He keeps on yalping along with Islam is violent... So are every single religion out there is too. So freakin do.. Now what?!
 
crazy monkey said:
V.2:62 "Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

This verse says nothing about Jews and Christians in the version of the Koran that i have, (which is a approved translation by the Saudi Arabian Ministry of Islamic Affairs). It only talks about believers in that verse.

Jews and christians are not mentioned in the "Skeptic's Annotated Quran" either.

Why is it that when someone tries to proof what nice things the koran has to say the verses are always messed with? Same thing happend two days ago already.
 

Zapages

Member
Althane said:
Well, if Muhammad committed violence in the name of his religion, we've got proof that Islam hasn't really changed in its lifetime, since you've got people committing violence in its name now... therefore Islam could be considered a religion of violence because people keep on loving to do violence in its name.

Read the history, it was mostly in defense... Here we go again... Prophet Muhammad PBUH after a victory allowed people of the losing side to be allowed to live no harm to be done.

We have all gone through this a thousands(exaggeration) times... Why not make a Christian thread or Jewish thread... Why is everyone here so interested in giving us trouble. Let us live in peace.

Anyway Ramadan is coming soon. How is everyone preparing for it??? These fastings are going to be a long day... Also anyone here doing a Fastathon at their University????
 
Steppenwolf said:
This verse says nothing about Jews and Christians in the version of the Koran that i have, (which is a approved translation by the Saudi Arabian Ministry of Islamic Affairs). It only talks about believers in that verse.

Jews and christians are not mentioned in the "Skeptic's Annotated Quran" either.

Why is it that when someone tries to proof what nice things the koran has to say the verses are always messed with? Same thing happend two days ago already.

Eh? I'm not sure what version you have but if you go back to the original arabic, it DOES mention christians..

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَارَى وَالصَّابِئِينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحاً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ (2:62)

al nasaraa = christians

The translations of the Quran are not actually qurans but translations of it. Its weird that your translation would leave out christians and jews when its in the original arabic..

Do a google search, every translation I found also has christians and jews mentioned..

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=sreply1.asp&-MaxRecords=25&-sortorder=ascend&-sortfield=cv&-token=Asad||%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&-op=qrange&CV=2:62&-find
 

Dever

Banned
I'm not sure how any religion that teaches that non-believers will be tortured forever in a lake of fire or something similiar can be called non-violent.

Btw why exactly do muslims fast?
 
Instigator said:
Nazir is certainly right when he claims he hasn't received a real rebuttal to these points:



The last two points require absolutely no scientific knowledge to be courtered. Simply laughing it all off a la Zapages is not a rebuttal either.

That's why I think the true Muslim masters at GAF need to return because no one currently unbanned is able to properly challenge Nizar.

There is no higher Muslim or lower Muslim. I don't have much knowledge since before coming to this forum I never seen so much negativity. I was thought not to say anything against christens or Jews since we believe in same god basically.Than Nizar started saying thing about prophet, I believe in all the prophets so if some one says bad thing about musa ,isha, Muhammad or any body else, I still need to defend .

So now new type of people come who don't believe in god and totally want quran to be scifi book. Science is so pure that it never changes according to them.

Nizar has not proven a thing. He says Islam is violent religion I told him yes. Islam has violent parts. What more do you need to know. There are verses in both Torah and bible about violence too_Other religion have the violent parts too.
 
Dever said:
Btw why exactly do muslims fast?

Muslims fast to get closer to Allah [God] and to increase in their faith. Fasting requires a lot of self control and discipline. And also because it is something that Muslims have been ordered to do by God.

Allah tells us: "O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that you may become pious" [Quran, chapter 2, verse 283]

The fact that they also can feel the hunger and thirst the poor people feel around the world is a added bonus.
 
Zapages said:
The situation is like this we don't want to get banned plain and simple.

Don't use foul language and don't threaten anyone and I am pretty sure you are in the clear.

If you can still get banned debating nominative and accusative grammar cases, you are truly a master... or an idiot.

Also Nizar arguments are weak and he's just trolling. Like the other one has stated, so what and that's what I am saying as well. So what?!

Islam sets itself up for failure by holding itself up to an impossible standard: perfection.

You can't have it both ways using the perfection argument to aid Islam and then change your mind when people poke holes in it.

All of his sources seem to be biased, while I found something from a simple islamic website that has no agenda except for educate people about Islam.

I would strongly dispute that your website had no bias and no agenda.

He dismisses it and goes on ranting...

It sounds a bit like you.

But Nizar did make it clear your website didn't address his particular point (age of the Earth). You never did counter him on this point either. It was his whole crux of his argument.

So its not point to argue with him because he does not listen civilly to the counter arguments that we are presenting...

He listens and answers back.

You just have to keep up.

He keeps on yalping along with Islam is violent...

If you can't and won't debate him on this issue, you can pick and choose other points to debate him with, standard forum stuff. He left himself open to multiple counterpoints.

So are every single religion out there is too. So freakin do.. Now what?!

Since you are arguing against a former Muslim and one with no other religious affiliation (he claims himself to be agnotic) than pointing out other religions are also violent is pointless. He wouldn't care either way and you are helping him in his bigger argument by highlighting Islam is just a dime in a dozen, just another corrupt, man-made religion that no one should ultimately follow.
 
Instigator said:
Islam is just a dime in a dozen, just another corrupt, man-made religion that no one should ultimately follow.

So i guess according to you and Nizar everyone should turn agnostic or atheist? right.
 
crazy monkey said:
There is no higher Muslim or lower Muslim. I don't have much knowledge since before coming to this forum I never seen so much negativity. I was thought not to say anything against christens or Jews since we believe in same god basically.Than Nizar started saying thing about prophet, I believe in all the prophets so if some one says bad thing about musa ,isha, Muhammad or any body else, I still need to defend .

But there are Muslims more dedicated and articulate that can better go toe to toe with Nazir.

I believe you to be sincere, but I don't believe you are the right person for this debate. Zapages
isn't either. Azih is better, but I think he has better things to do.

crazthe other one said:
Allah is perfect, the Muslims are not.

The Qu'ran is also said to be perfect.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
crazy monkey said:
There is no higher Muslim or lower Muslim. I don't have much knowledge since before coming to this forum I never seen so much negativity. I was thought not to say anything against christens or Jews since we believe in same god basically.Than Nizar started saying thing about prophet, I believe in all the prophets so if some one says bad thing about musa ,isha, Muhammad or any body else, I still need to defend .

So now new type of people come who don't believe in god and totally want quran to be scifi book. Science is so pure that it never changes according to them.

Nizar has not proven a thing. He says Islam is violent religion I told him yes. Islam has violent parts. What more do you need to know. Other religion have the violent parts too.

Actually what we currently define as modern science is a relatively recent concept. There's nothing in the Bible or Quran that really emphasizes science or the scientific method, and what some people are claiming to be 'amazing revelations' in the Quran is nothing more than a form of postdiction.

What some people seem to be missing the point, is that a secular argument differs from a theological one. Saying that Christianity or Judaism is violent as well, doesn't exactly win any points to those non-aligned with a religion. In fact, that forms part of the concern regarding the critique of your underlying religious ideology.

It would be a nice start if someone started reformatting the these authoritative books for modernity, and taking out all the violence and misanthropic ideas.
 

Zapages

Member
Atrus said:
Actually what we currently define as modern science is a relatively recent concept. There's nothing in the Bible or Quran that really emphasizes science or the scientific method, and what some people are claiming to be 'amazing revelations' in the Quran is nothing more than a form of postdiction.

What some people seem to be missing the point, is that a secular argument differs from a theological one. Saying that Christianity or Judaism is violent as well, doesn't exactly win any points to those non-aligned with a religion. In fact, that forms part of the concern regarding the critique of your underlying religious ideology.

It would be a nice start if someone started reformatting the these authoritative books for modernity, and taking out all the violence and misanthropic ideas.

Look at all religions, I have yet to see a religion is not violent... All religions' history have violence in them. The thing is that why did the violence occur. In Islam, the violence occurred in form self defense. That folks here posted before yet Nizar keeps on ignoring that and tries to find tangents.

As for discussing: Hadji and few others got banned just for stating what is in the Holy Quran... So we have to be careful.
 
Instigator said:
But there are Muslims more dedicated and articulate that can better go toe to toe with Nazir.

I believe you to be sincere, but I don't believe you are the right person for this debate. Zapages isn't either. Azih is better, but I think he has better things to do.
ok .
 
crazy monkey said:
So i guess according to you and Nizar everyone should turn agnostic or atheist? right.

Talk about left field and missing the point.

I don't think I can really speak for Nazir in this respect, but even if he and I were of that opinion, how does it change anything? Or the argument over violence for that matter?

See, if I were Muslim and I were facing a guy like Nazir, I would counter him the right way. If he claimed some specific Qu'ran excerpts suggest violence, I would find every hadith and other commentary talking about proper context of every single one of those excerpts. We'd most likely disagree, but what else is new?

If he'd fall back on generalities saying jihad is violence, then I'd say something along the lines that jihad is ultimately a struggle, the greater struggle within but also a struggle for an external cause and it does not need to and shouldn't be violent. The issue of those using jihad of the sword would be tricky, but I could claim that they ultimately tarnish Islam's image and it would be rightful jihad to oppose them. Nazir probably would not buy it, but I could always say this is what I was taught and this is what I believe to be true Islam. :D

To me, this sounds easy. Of course Nazir would probably hold his ground and still claim Islam is violent but to paraphrase Zapages: 'So what?' Agree to disagree and move on to the next point!
 
Instigator said:
The Qu'ran is also said to be perfect.

The Quraan is perfect and to this day has yet to be proven otherwise. Like I mentioned before, that link that was posted on youtube has definitely been refuted. Go to a Muslim scholar who is an expert in the language and it will be refuted by him. There is no point debating it here nor trying to find a explanation as none of us our experts in the language.
 
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