Support NeoGAF

[Dabookerman]

pixie dust!! j/k

You can't really turn food, that it has already been cooked, into halal food. The animals have to be slaughtered in a certain way for the food to be considered halal, and the people have to say "Bismillah..." before killing the animal.

How do they have to be killed? And what happens when Bismillah is chanted?

 

[Darackutny]

we have to understand the time frame. I guess i think different way then you do.Slaughter house work differently here check the method they use.

"
In a Hadith reported in Sahih Bukhari (7:415), Aisha (R) said that a group of people said to Prophet Mahammad (SAW), “Some people bring us meat and we do not know whether they have mentioned the name of Allah (SWT) or not on slaughtering the animal.” He said, “mention the name of Allah (SWT) on it and eat it.” These people had embraced Islam recently.

If we actually examine the Hadith above we find that these people were actually Muslims so Zibah has been done. Otherwise, I believe the Holy Prophet Mahammad (SAW) would have forbidden them from eating the meat. The Holy Prophet (SAW) did not make it a general rule for all time that you can say “Bismillah” and eat, not knowing whether Zibah or not.

The above questions were asked from Prophet Mahammad (SAW) who obviously knew the answer as Allah (SWT) would have given the answer to the Holy Prophet (SAW). The question was related to a specific incident and was not meant to be generalised for all time.

I think it was Imam Shafi that ruled that Halal animals if not done Zibah are mukruh but not haram. Mukruh means abomination and a Mukruh action carries less punishment than haram actions. I think it was Imam Abu Hanifa that ruled that this meat is haram. I can understand Imaan Shafi’s logic in this matter and that he is correct but I believe Imam Abu Hanifa is MORE correct so my opinion is that these meats are haram as the prohibition is clear in Surah Al Anam, verse 121.

It is wrong to make a general rule that we can eat the meat of the people of the scripture simply by saying “Bismillah.”

The mentioning of the name of Allah (SWT) is to be done at Zibah and not simply before consumption. It must be understood that the name of Allah (SWT) has to be mentioned at the consumption of all foods. "
http://khudadad.com/

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/88206

Bro, did you read the Islamqa link you provided?

Here is what it says:

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: It is not essential to ask about that which was slaughtered by a Muslim or a kitaabi, and how it was slaughtered, and whether the name of Allaah was mentioned over it or not. Rather that should not be done, because that is being obstinate in religious matters. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ate meat slaughtered by the Jews and did not ask questions. In Saheeh al-Bukhaari and elsewhere it is narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that some people said to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): Some people bring meat to us, and we do not know whether they mentioned the name of Allaah over it or not. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Mention the name of Allaah over it and eat.” She said: They were new in Islam, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told them to eat without asking, even though those who brought the meat to them may not have been aware of the rulings of Islam because they were new in Islam. End quote from Risaalah fi Ahkaam al-Udhiyah wa’l-Dhakaah by Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him).

-------------

Narrated Abu Thalaha Al Khushaui :I came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are living in the land of the People of the Scripture, and we take our meals in their utensils, and there is game in that land and I hunt with my bow and with my trained hound and with my untrained hound." The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,

"As for your saying that you are in the land of the People of the Book, you should not eat in their utensils, unless you find no alternative, in which case you must wash the utensils and then eat in them... "

I would also suggest that you only eat Halal or Kosher meat brother. Anything that you think is not halal then do not eat it. If you are unsure then leave it..

You're drawing your conclusion regarding the invalidity of eating the food of the People of the Scripture by quoting a hadith about utensils. The hadith that I have provided above is more direct in showing that there is nothing wrong with doing so since the Prophet did the same, even when he wasn't sure.

 

[Enosh]

Got an email back from nestle and the coffee drinks are........ Halal! Yay! I would copy and paste doc they sent me but I'm using my phone. Will do when I get in.

you know, kinda just wondering

I mean aren't you preaty much going on blind faith here? I mean they certanly don't want anyone to not give them money by not buying their product...

What does this even mean?

What "mentality"?

the mentality needed to counter some X years of religious indoctrination and to counter the "you are going to hell if you don't belive" thingy to actualy be an agnostic/atheist, not everyone is one for good reasons, some people simply don't have the "will power", this was quite clear from your post some month ago

 

[Enosh]

Let's make a bet. You get 10 bucks if I pursue a religion in the next 12 months.

I never made bets and never will, it's against my principles^^

 

[crazy monkey]

Bro, did you read the Islamqa link you provided?

Here is what it says:



-------------



You're drawing your conclusion regarding the invalidity of eating the food of the People of the Scripture by quoting a hadith about utensils. The hadith that I have provided above is more direct in showing that there is nothing wrong with doing so since the Prophet did the same, even when he wasn't sure.

salam, read the whole thing please. The question here is if the halal option is avileble you should always choose halal.
Second, search about slaughtering method used here.


If the meat is haraam, it is not permissible to eat from it on the grounds of necessity, so long as a person can find food to keep him alive, such as fish, vegetables and so on.

With regard to other types of meat, if the companies or individuals who produce meat are people of the Book, Jews or Christians, and it is not known from them that they kill the animal by electric shock, strangling or striking it on the head, as is well known in the west, then this meat is halaal. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

The Muslim should strive to avoid that which is clearly haraam and be cautious of doubtful matters so as to preserve his religious commitment and to keep his body safe from being nourished with haraam things. End quote.



But if they kill the animal by one of the methods mentioned, then the meat is haraam, because in that case it is meat that has been strangled or killed by a blow. If those who produce the meat are not Jews or Christians, then the meat that they offer is haraam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Eat not (O believers) of that (meat) on which Allaah’s Name has not been pronounced (at the time of the slaughtering of the animal), for sure it is Fisq (a sin and disobedience of Allaah)”

[al-An’aam 6:121]

 

[GSG Flash]

you know, kinda just wondering

I mean aren't you preaty much going on blind faith here? I mean they certanly don't want anyone to not give them money by not buying their product...

They could be doing that but I'm pretty sure they'd be risking a lawsuit if they did do that, I'm sure they would rather not risk it and just tell the truth.

 

[kobashi100]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/15/mecca-hotel-against-hajj-spirit

Luxury developments at holy site raise concerns hajj will become preserve of elite

The pilgrimage to Mecca has always involved hardship and sacrifice, whether months spent travelling on foot through barren valleys and sleeping in the open with no shelter from the elements or stripping oneself of earthly trappings. But help is at hand for the pilgrim who cannot bear to be without comfort while executing the fifth pillar of Islam.

Raffles, which gave thirsty wanderers the Singapore Sling, is opening a luxury hotel in Mecca offering pilgrims a coffee sommelier, a chocolate room where chefs will prepare bespoke pralines and truffles, and a 24-hour butler service.

Undeterred by restrictions on beautifying oneself during the Hajj, the hotel will also have segregated gyms, beauty parlours, grooming salons and a spa.

There are strict rules regarding personal hygiene and behaviour during the hajj, and forbidden activities include sex, the cutting of hair and nails and the trimming of beards. These bars are lifted once certain rituals are complete, but Muslims are generally expected to forget worldly thoughts and activities and focus on the divine.

Mohammed Arkobi, the general manager of the new hotel, did not explain how a chocolate room and spa would help pilgrims achieve spiritual fulfilment. Nor was he able to comment on how the amenities complied with the ethos of the hajj, which is about simplicity and humility.

But he did say that the "comprehensive range of services" were designed to meet the needs of the "discerning" travellers they were targeting.

"Ultimately, the hotel's sophisticated ambience, our range of features and highly personalised service delivery such as those offered through our 24-hour butler service will help to ensure that our residents' overall experience will be enriching."

Arkobi said the hotel was a three-minute walk away from the Grand Mosque, the Masjid al-Haram, and that a "spacious outdoor dining terrace" would provide direct views of it.

It is being developed by the Saudi Binladin Company, one of the largest construction firms in the Arab world, which has also been responsible for overseeing the expansion of the holy mosques in Mecca and Medina. The company was set up by Mohammed bin Laden, father of Osama, although the family is now estranged from its most infamous son.

Around 4 million people visit Mecca for hajj, with millions more passing through the rest of the year to perform the lesser pilgrimage. Estimates for future numbers vary wildly – from 10 million to 20 million – and the landscape of Mecca has undergone a dramatic transformation over the decades to cope with demand. Homes have been bulldozed, mountains flattened and historic sites razed to provide more hotel rooms and amenities.

One development that will dominate the skyline and the Grand Mosque is the Makkah Royal Clock Tower, operated by international hoteliers Fairmont, which is majority owned by a company chaired by HRH Prince Alwaleed bin Talal bin Abdulaziz Alsaud, the Saudi king's nephew.

The tower will be among the tallest in the world, 577 metres (1,893ft) high on completion, and its dimensions, including a clockface measuring 40 metres across that will be visible 10 miles away, make it five times larger than Big Ben.

In addition to 1,005 guest rooms, the tower will also house a lunar observation centre and Islamic museum. It lies in the massive Abraj Al Bait complex, part of the King Abdul Aziz endowment project aimed at upgrading the precincts of Mecca and Medina.

Mecca's makeover is alarming international activists, such as Ali al-Ahmed, the director of the Washington-based Institute for Gulf Affairs, a thinktank analysing events and issues in the region. Ahmed, an outspoken critic of the Saudi regime, said many factors were driving the changes.

"The al-Sauds want to make Mecca like Dubai, it is a money-making operation. They destroy ancient buildings because they do not want any history other than their own, they see it as competition. They destroy and dispose of artefacts."

He also expressed concern that the arrival of luxury brands would increase the price of a pilgrimage. A 2009 platinum Hajj package from a UK tour operator costs £6,400 for 16 nights full board, based on double occupancy.

"By developing Mecca in this way they are making it inaccessible and unaffordable for the majority of Muslims. It will only be for the elite," Ahmed said.

The city's increasing westernisation was a "perversion of the religion", encouraging activities that were at odds with the spirit of the hajj, he said.

"The Saudis may come across as austere but members of the ruling class have billions of dollars between them – even the muftis live in palaces with chandeliers."

Development of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina should not come at the expense of religious practice, he said, before turning his attention to the lack of protest from Muslims around the world.

"Let's take Jerusalem as an example. Muslims are outraged when Israelis do something in the Old City, but in Mecca things are being systematically destroyed and nobody is raising an eyebrow. It is a catastrophe."

Raffles Mecca is due to open in April 2010.

 

[GSG Flash]

Yeah, I'm against this whole "let's turn Mecca into a resort city" stuff that the Saudis are doing. Hajj and Umra should be spiritual pilgramages, not a vacation where you're staying in a high class luxury hotel during your time there. Sure, your time at Mecca doesn't have to be an uncomfortable one but you don't need a 5 star hotel to be comfortable.

 

[Dabookerman]

salam, read the whole thing please. The question here is if the halal option is avileble you should always choose halal.
Second, search about slaughtering method used here.


If the meat is haraam, it is not permissible to eat from it on the grounds of necessity, so long as a person can find food to keep him alive, such as fish, vegetables and so on.

With regard to other types of meat, if the companies or individuals who produce meat are people of the Book, Jews or Christians, and it is not known from them that they kill the animal by electric shock, strangling or striking it on the head, as is well known in the west, then this meat is halaal. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

The Muslim should strive to avoid that which is clearly haraam and be cautious of doubtful matters so as to preserve his religious commitment and to keep his body safe from being nourished with haraam things. End quote.



But if they kill the animal by one of the methods mentioned, then the meat is haraam, because in that case it is meat that has been strangled or killed by a blow. If those who produce the meat are not Jews or Christians, then the meat that they offer is haraam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Eat not (O believers) of that (meat) on which Allaah’s Name has not been pronounced (at the time of the slaughtering of the animal), for sure it is Fisq (a sin and disobedience of Allaah)”

[al-An’aam 6:121]

According to a study, the Islamic way of killing an animal causes pain for as long as two minutes.

The hell?

 

[A.R.K]

a very beautiful nasheed (poem) about reality of this life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa2Gg1ZcH1Q

 

[kobashi100]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...uld_Have_Attacked_Middle_East_Envoy_In_Mosque

Dominic Waghorn, Middle East correspondent

The Palestinian who branded Tony Blair a 'terrorist' has told Sky News he could have physically attacked the former Prime Minister but did not want to.

Ali Hassan Hemidan protested against the Middle East envoy's visit to Abraham's Mosque in Hebron on Tuesday.

He told Sky exclusively: "I could have got to him. There were only a few metres between us but I don't believe in violence. I only wanted to give him a message."

Hemidan had shouted at Mr Blair to leave the mosque, one of Islam's more sacred shrines.

He called him a "terrorist" and a "dog" who was "not welcome in Palestine" before being manhandled by Palestinian security personnel and arrested.

After his release to his home outside Hebron he revealed to Sky News he is a member of Hizb Tahrir, a radical Islamist movement.

The secretive organisation has extreme aims, including the establishment of an Islamic caliphate on all historic Palestine, but claims to advocate non-violence.

Mr Blair reacted calmly to his heckling in the mosque. Minutes later he told Sky News it was important journalists did not "mistake the protest for the general views of the whole population".

Hemidan told Sky News his views were not exceptional: "It's not only me. All the Muslims believe Blair is a terrorist because of the blood of Muslims being spilled in Iraq and Afghanistan."

His words echo those of bereaved British father Peter Brierley whose son died in Iraq and who accused Mr Blair of having blood on his hands two weeks ago.

He snubbed the former Prime Minister by refusing to shake his hand at a memorial service in London.

Mr Blair's appointment as peace envoy has always been controversial because of his unpopularity in the Arab world over Iraq.

Hemidan explained why he told him he was not welcome in Palestine: "He can't fool the Muslim nation and try to show up like a messenger of peace for the Middle East because the truth is the destruction of the Middle East is Blair's fault."

 

[Instigator]

I find this funny.

 

[crazy monkey]

I find this funny.

yes, it is.

 

[Instigator]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,661561,00.html

I'd be pissed too.

Last week, according to the Italian newswire Ansa, an Italian agency began looking for hundreds of "beautiful girls from all of Italy" at the behest of the Libyan dictator. According to the advertisement, they were to be "cute, between 18 and 35 years old, at least 1.70 meters (5 feet 7 inches) and well dressed. No mini-skirts or cleavage." Gadhafi, the advertisement went on, wanted to "exchange views" with the young women and "honor them" the Libyan way. For their trouble, the women were to get €50 ($75) and a Koran.

Some Guy Who Looks Like Jesus

On Sunday night, however, it became clear just what Gadhafi meant by "exchanging views." Ansa reports that 200 women -- minus those weeded out for not having dressed appropriately -- filed in to the Libyan Embassy before being subjected to a lecture from the Libyan leader about the benefits of Islam. After the lesson was over, he invited them to convert.

According to participants quoted by Ansa, Gadhafi told his audience that "you believe that Jesus was crucified, but that didn't happen. God took him to the heavens. They crucified some guy who looked like him."

One participant, identified by Ansa only as L.M., said "I was expecting a party, not a lecture." Her companion added, "I feel offended because of my religious faith."

 

[crazy monkey]

EID MUBARAK : )

 

[Domino Theory]

EID MUBARAK : )

Kheilee merci, doosteh man.

 

[Darackutny]

Kul 'aam wa antum bi khair, ya Muslim-GAF!

 

[GSG Flash]

Eid mubarak everyone!

There are some awesome pics here from hajj in Mecca and Eid all over the world

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/11/eid_aladha_and_the_hajj_2009.html

edit: Here are some pics from the link

Hajj:

Eid:

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Jakarta, Indonesia

Srinagar, India

Kano, Nigeria

Strasbourg, France

Wuzhong, China

Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan

Abidjan, Ivory Coast

Pristina, Kosovo

Damuscus, Syria

 

[crazy monkey]

Wow Amazing photos. Again Eid mubarak.

 

[Nemo]

Those photos are AWESOME!

Eid Mubarak! Hope everyone had some nice meals. I just had some leftovers from yesterday, best leftovers ever!

 

[crazy monkey]

Those photos are AWESOME!

Eid Mubarak! Hope everyone had some nice meals. I just had some leftovers from yesterday, best leftovers ever!

haha ,leftovers from Eid days are the best. :lol

 

[Karram]

So I've been thinking about converting from Islam to agnoticism since there are many stuff I've been dobuting when it comes to Islam and religon, making me feel that religon is just man made.

First, the whole thing about god telling Muhammed to marry/sleep with as many wives as he want, And that god told him that everyone should follow him without asking a word.

The second thing is the whole stoning and whipping if sex happens outside marriage and why is being gay is supposed to be a sin. Which I know isn't only in islam but all other religons.

Finally why would god make 3 different religons why not just release one ?

 

[DonMigs85]

So I've been thinking about converting from Islam to agnoticism since there are many stuff I've been dobuting when it comes to Islam and religon, making me feel that religon is just man made.

First, the whole thing about god telling Muhammed to marry/sleep with as many wives as he want, And that god told him that everyone should follow him without asking a word.

The second thing is the whole stoning and whipping if sex happens outside marriage and why is being gay is supposed to be a sin. Which I know isn't only in islam but all other religons.

Finally why would god make 3 different religons why not just release one ?

You seem to be quite a noob when it comes to Theology. Of course God didn't actually "make" 3 religions, man played the biggest part in shaping each one. Plus there are more than just 3 (Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, and the 3 Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism.)
Religions generally oppose premarital sex and homosexuality because they perceive them as immoral, worldly acts.

 

[Kinitari]

So I've been thinking about converting from Islam to agnoticism since there are many stuff I've been dobuting when it comes to Islam and religon, making me feel that religon is just man made.

First, the whole thing about god telling Muhammed to marry/sleep with as many wives as he want, And that god told him that everyone should follow him without asking a word.

The second thing is the whole stoning and whipping if sex happens outside marriage and why is being gay is supposed to be a sin. Which I know isn't only in islam but all other religons.

Finally why would god make 3 different religons why not just release one ?

Some quick questions:

Where do you live?
How old are you?
What's your ethnicity?
If you went Atheist/Agnostic - how would your family take it?

 

[Karram]

You seem to be quite a noob when it comes to Theology. Of course God didn't actually "make" 3 religions, man played the biggest part in shaping each one. Plus there are more than just 3 (Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, and the 3 Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism.)
Religions generally oppose premarital sex and homosexuality because they perceive them as immoral, worldly acts.

Yeah I'm noob when it comes to Theology, I'm going to start reading more though.
I also meant the 3 Abrahamic Religions, Because from what I've been told is that the 3 Religions were sent from god.
I can see how a Religion view about premarital sex to be immoral but to say Stone and Whip whoever doing it isn't just good, and why would Homosexuality be immoral ? I mean the person is born that way what would he/she do ?

Some quick questions:

Where do you live?
How old are you?
What's your ethnicity?
If you went Atheist/Agnostic - how would your family take it?

Turkey
18
American/Egyptian/Turkish
I don't think they are going to be so happy about it

 

[Kinitari]

Yeah I'm noob when it comes to Theology, I'm going to start reading more though.
I also meant the 3 Abrahamic Religions, Because from what I've been told is that the 3 Religions were sent from god.
I can see how a Religion view about premarital sex to be immoral but to say Stone and Whip whoever doing it isn't just good, and why would Homosexuality be immoral ? I mean the person is born that way what would he/she do ?

Reading about Theology is good in the sort of world we live in, although I sort of wish it wasn't necessary - it sort of is. To be honest, I think all religion is hooey - and reading about it should be a waste of time.

In Islam it is taught that God attempted to spread the word three times, but fucked up the first two times, and the third time was the charm for him (maybe that's where the saying originated from). Well I may be simplifying it a bit - God is incapable of fucking anything up, it wasn't his fault, it was the people who messed it up. My question is - if God is both Omnipotent and Omniscient, why did he not see it coming?

Stoning and whipping was in fashion when the Qu'ran was written. And the Old Testament for that matter, and kind the New Testament too. Because of the type of religion Islam is (if you change shit about the Qu'ran, it explicitly says you should be murdered) - it's a bit harder to move away from the old fashioned punishments. Maybe if God decided to give the book an edit, he'd get with the times.

Most Religions teach that Homosexuality is a choice, and that it is the devils work, or some hogwash. Whether or not Homosexuality is a choice isn't even a question - rarely can someone just decide whom they find sexually attractive. Whether or not homosexuality is something you are born with or something that develops over a long period of time in your childhood - or some combination of both - is up for debate still. When it comes down to it, does it really matter? Even if, hypothetically speaking, homosexuality was a choice - who are gay people really hurting? Is it really deserving of the sort of... creative punishments many Muslims dish out to homosexuals? I don't really think so - getting your ass superglued shut and then getting publicly hung doesn't really seem like it's the sort of punishment warranted for a dude liking other dudes.

Turkey
18
American/Egyptian/Turkish
I don't think they are going to be so happy about it

Yeah, I don't know if I would recommend telling parents, or a lot of people in general about your Apostasy. I don't think you have too much to worry about when it comes to your life, killing Apostates really isn't THAT popular I've heard. But your parents might disown you, kick you out, and you might lose the love and support of a lot of people. At your age you might not quite be ready for that. If you do decide to leave the religion - keep it to yourself for a while, no matter how much you want to tell people how crazy they are all being or whatever.

I can tell you as an Islamic Apostate - life is pretty good, I enjoy it a dramatic amount more now than I ever did when I called myself Muslim. The bacon and sausage alone is worth it.

*Edited to fix my late night grammatical errors.

 

[crazy monkey]

So I've been thinking about converting from Islam to agnoticism since there are many stuff I've been dobuting when it comes to Islam and religon, making me feel that religon is just man made.

First, the whole thing about god telling Muhammed to marry/sleep with as many wives as he want, And that god told him that everyone should follow him without asking a word.

The second thing is the whole stoning and whipping if sex happens outside marriage and why is being gay is supposed to be a sin. Which I know isn't only in islam but all other religons.

Finally why would god make 3 different religons why not just release one ?

salam,
sorry for late reply I did not see it bumped. First I would like to tell you that it is good thing you are asking question. Everything I say here will be my opinion.

"First, the whole thing about god telling Muhammed to marry/sleep with as many wives as he want, And that god told him that everyone should follow him without asking a word."


Um we just had talked about this in other topic. As a Muslim we are allowed to marry 4 women not as many as we like. WE can sleep around. Mohamed did not marry other women till his first wife died. WE follow Mohamed on religious issues. Every other issue which are daily life you should use your own thoughts and ideas. You are free man in islam as much as you are in any way of life. It is just you are responsible for your doing.

"The second thing is the whole stoning and whipping if sex happens outside marriage and why is being gay is supposed to be a sin. Which I know isn't only in islam but all other religons. "

Answer to this questions lies in first question we are not allowed to sleep around everywhere. Regarding gay and homosexuality it is not allowed.

"Finally why would god make 3 different religons why not just release one ?"

We don't have only three religion we have many of them. We have choice.

I am not very good at this topic. But I suggest you talk to imam at local mosque or your friends about it. Insha allah your confusion will clear up.

 

[IZZO]

I can tell you as an Islamic Apostate - life is pretty good, I enjoy it a dramatic amount more now than I ever did when I called myself Muslim. The bacon and sausage alone is worth it.

That is true to me as well. Even though I'm a closet atheist I feel much happier than before. I enjoy life for what it is and I try not to dwell on sorrow. You only live once.

Unfortunately I still live in an Islamic country so I have yet to try bacon or alcohol.

Hopefully I will be able to try it soon.

 

[Guardian Bob]

As a Muslim we are allowed to marry 4 women not as many as we like. WE can sleep around. Mohamed did not marry other women till his first wife died. WE follow Mohamed on religious issues. Every other issue which are daily life you should use your own thoughts and ideas. You are free man in islam as much as you are in any way of life. It is just you are responsible for your doing.

Ok, im not sure if you just explained this really badly, but thats ridiculous. 4 women at once, or 4 women over the span of your life? And by "we" I assume you mean just men.

 

[-PXG-]

Can you guys recommend good books, essays, articles and speeches about Islam? I'm secular, yet very interested in learning more about Islam. Thanks

 

[wRATH2x]

Can you guys recommend good books, essays, articles and speeches about Islam? I'm secular, yet very interested in learning more about Islam. Thanks

You can find some websites on google.

Wikipedia got some good articles too.

 

[hxa155]

Don't tell me this is some kind of Islam bashing thread?

 

[Anaxagoras]

So I've been thinking about converting from Islam to agnoticism since there are many stuff I've been dobuting when it comes to Islam and religon, making me feel that religon is just man made.

First, the whole thing about god telling Muhammed to marry/sleep with as many wives as he want, And that god told him that everyone should follow him without asking a word.

The second thing is the whole stoning and whipping if sex happens outside marriage and why is being gay is supposed to be a sin. Which I know isn't only in islam but all other religons.

Finally why would god make 3 different religons why not just release one ?

Since I have been in the phase that you are currently in right now I really understand you, you feel that Islam's truth doesn't really portray or go hand in hand with the reality that you understand and live in.
This bad feeling forces or encourages you to dig deeper into the truth of Islam and theology in general in hopes of one day reaching the truth or at least enhancing your understanding of it in order to get rid of this bad feeling that you have, which is perfectly normal and very understandable.

My only advice for you is to keep on doing what you are doing right now, do not leave any question unasked, after all God for sure does favor an intelligent follower who have chosen to search and reach him through thinking and hard work over that who hasn't really given his belief in him any critical thinking and just adopted whatever belief system his parents had.

You are in no way obligated to disprove God's existence in order to disbelieve in him just as much as a religious person doesn't need to prove God's existence in order to believe in him, in fact it is impossible to prove a negative but I can dwell into that later.

Its a matter of reasonability, is the chosen belief reasonable?
The difference between a reasonable belief and a non-reasonable one is simply that it is backed up by reason, evidence or proof.
It is not your job to prove all the beliefs that you do not agree with to be false in order to not share them or not accept them, it is the claim makers job to back up his claims if he wants us to accept them or take them to be true, in other words the burden of proof is on them.

When it comes to religion and there is no evidence what so ever that proves any religion to be true, the rational position to take in that case is not to accept any to be true.

This may be a little harder to follow but give it a chance:

Zero evidence that supports god's existence is available and the possibility of anythings existence is infinite, given that there is an endless amount of possibilities and zero evidence, from a rational point of view (and to rationalize is to weight the ratios and balance the different possibilities) it would be 1/infinity which is approximately zero.

In other words, the degree of confidence we should have in a proposition should modulate with the amount of evidence we have.
If we have 0 evidence, then we should have 0 degree of belief in any proposition, and since we have an endless amount of possibilities, then all these possibilities are as likely to be true.
That is why it is rational not to accept any of these propositions to be true in such a situation.

You either take all the possibilities to be as true or as false, accepting one of the possibilities to be true and all the other possibilities to be false when they are all as likely to be true is irrational since you are not sticking to the ratio of possibility.

That is to take anything that is not supported by evidence to be true, such as dragons, aliens, monsters, harry potter, god, unicorns, ghosts, green rabbits and 7 eyed purple birds that breath fire and shit gold.

Also, God's existence is not a 50/50 percent chance, if that was true then the probability of me having a pink rat that shits gold should be 50/50 too, there is a difference between the different possibilities and the probability.

God either exists or doesn't exists, true, but this doesn't mean that the probability of his existence is 50%, think of it this way:

The different possibilities of God's existence. (exists or doesn't exist)(0.50 for each)
The probability of God's existence. (approximately 0) < remember that 1/infinity=0

Example:
The different possibilities of a green rabbits existence. (0.50 each possibility)
The probability of a green rabbits existence. (approximately 0)

Another example:
The different possibilities of a cat falling down. (on it's feet most likely , on its back, on its head or on its ass).
The probability of a cat falling down. (not very likely but it happens from time to time).

We atheists do not claim that God doesn't exists, and this very important to understand, we just accept that the probability of it to be true is just very unlikely, just as unicorns existence, if not more.

Just as many people consider the existence of unicorns to be false without any evidence to back their claims besides the fact that their existence is very unlikely, we too make this 'mistake', its an honest mistake. Think of it this way, if I ask you if you are coming to class tomorrow, you probably will answer with something like ''Yes, I will be'' although you have no evidence what so ever that proves that you will be alive tomorrow, so in other words we do this simply for practicality although we really shouldn't.

Also, worshiping Allah is not really worshiping God, worshiping Allah is worshiping A God, it might not sound reasonable but I will explain:

X = who/what-ever created us (God).
Y = Allah (a God).
Z = another God (there are about 8000 god's that has been documented that man believed in)

The different possibilities:
X = Y
X =/= Y
X = Z
X =/= Z

The possibility X =/= Y means that Allah might not be who/whatever created us, and that is because you do not worship whoever created us, you are worshiping Allah, you believe that X = Y but there is also the possibility that X =/= Y.

Last but not least, We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in, the difference is that some of us go one god further.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

I hope that this helps you for now.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Can you guys recommend good books, essays, articles and speeches about Islam? I'm secular, yet very interested in learning more about Islam. Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim

 

[crazy monkey]

math equations

instead of answering what he is asking repeat the same mathematical equation again right:lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim

why don't you recommend him your own book. It should be published by now. Or just tell him not to read about islam you will like it even more.

Can you guys recommend good books, essays, articles and speeches about Islam? I'm secular, yet very interested in learning more about Islam. Thanks

Salam, sorry to reply late. There are many many books regarding islam. May I know what particular part are you interested in? Law, Culture, just general info or Biography?
I would first start with good quran translation with explanation behind verses.

This is great for genral info
BBC islam page

Thanks.

 

[Shanadeus]

To Karram: If you cannot accept homosexuality (no matter why you do it, or the excuse)as a great sin and an abomination, then you're doing yourself a favor turning away from religion.
I can tell you already know that probably no Muslim following the Quran is going to come forth and tell you that being gay and having gay sex is allright, so you shouldn't try to remain within a religion that strongly clashes with your own morals and beliefs.
Problem is probably how your parents and people around you would take it all, if you live in a major city in turkey you shouldn't have to worry about any attacks. But were you to live out in the backwards parts I'd recommend you to just pretend you're a Muslim and play along till you can get out of there.

 

[wRATH2x]

I can tell you already know that probably no Muslim following the Quran is going to come forth and tell you that being gay and having gay sex is allright.

Sup

 

[Karram]

So I went to an Imam just like one of you said, to tell him about the Questions i have and here is the Conversation I had with him:

"I've thinking about Why Did God send 3 different Religions ?"

"Because God sent the 3 religions to different people in Different time"

"Couldn't just god send Judaism only and people would still believe in it till now, Right ?"

"That's not the only reason, The other reason is Because people changed phrases from Judaism and Christianity" and then gives me an example of what Christians did to the Bible.
So I told him "How didn't god know that people will eventually change phrases from the Bible and Torah ?"

"Well, That's God's wisdom" and says a Phrase in the Qur'an about god doing what he wants.
Then I started talking About why would god tell Muhammad to marry as many wives as he want.
And his answer was Totally unexpected he said "Whats the problem of marrying 4 wives at once ?"
So I tried to forget about what he said and told him one of them of his wives was just 13 Years old.

So he replied saying "There's nothing wrong with that, back in the day girls reach puberty pretty fast due to the weather so she wasn't a kid as you think "

And I decided to stop asking him because I just felt like I'm wasting my time since he isn't saying anything useful.
I'll probably go to another Imam before converting though.

 

[2San]

So I went to an Imam just like one of you said, to tell him about the Questions i have and here is the Conversation I had with him:

"I've thinking about Why Did God send 3 different Religions ?"

"Because God sent the 3 religions to different people in Different time"

"Couldn't just god send Judaism only and people would still believe in it till now, Right ?"

"That's not the only reason, The other reason is Because people changed phrases from Judaism and Christianity" and then gives me an example of what Christians did to the Bible.
So I told him "How didn't god know that people will eventually change phrases from the Bible and Torah ?"

"Well, That's God's wisdom" and says a Phrase in the Qur'an about god doing what he wants.
Then I started talking About why would god tell Muhammad to marry as many wives as he want.
And his answer was Totally unexpected he said "Whats the problem of marrying 4 wives at once ?"
So I tried to forget about what he said and told him one of them of his wives was just 13 Years old.

So he replied saying "There's nothing wrong with that, back in the day girls reach puberty pretty fast due to the weather so she wasn't a kid as you think "

And I decided to stop asking him because I just felt like I'm wasting my time since he isn't saying anything useful.
I'll probably go to another Imam before converting though.

Huh can you mention from which verse it tells Muhammad(saw) can marry as many wifes as he wants? I can't remember reading that.

Short disclamer about me: I think the Hadith is worthless and only follow the Qu'ran and have only bothered to read that. So any reply's concerning the hadith you can keep to yourself.

As I remember muslims are allowed to marry 4 wives, but is discouraged. The only time where it is justified to take another wife is when you are saving that person from poverty and have the means to support her. While the rule doesn't make much sense these days(actually still does in poor contries). It is constructed to battle poverty. Before you guys wtf. Polygamy was considered normal in that time and is accepted in Christianity.

To Karram: If you cannot accept homosexuality (no matter why you do it, or the excuse)as a great sin and an abomination, then you're doing yourself a favor turning away from religion.
I can tell you already know that probably no Muslim following the Quran is going to come forth and tell you that being gay and having gay sex is allright, so you shouldn't try to remain within a religion that strongly clashes with your own morals and beliefs.
Problem is probably how your parents and people around you would take it all, if you live in a major city in turkey you shouldn't have to worry about any attacks. But were you to live out in the backwards parts I'd recommend you to just pretend you're a Muslim and play along till you can get out of there.

I'll say the same, I'll just call you a hypocrite if you try to be Muslim and gay at the same time, but I do the same with people who drink alcohol as well. The quran only mentioned gays once in a doomed city. I'd interpreted that it is forbidden, but there are no penalties mentioned or anything. It's just another sin. As I have friends who aren't muslims(only about 10% of my friends are muslim), I can have friends that are gay as well. Though truth be told don't know any.

 

[crazy monkey]

So I went to an Imam just like one of you said, to tell him about the Questions i have and here is the Conversation I had with him:

"I've thinking about Why Did God send 3 different Religions ?"

"Because God sent the 3 religions to different people in Different time"

"Couldn't just god send Judaism only and people would still believe in it till now, Right ?"

"That's not the only reason, The other reason is Because people changed phrases from Judaism and Christianity" and then gives me an example of what Christians did to the Bible.
So I told him "How didn't god know that people will eventually change phrases from the Bible and Torah ?"

"Well, That's God's wisdom" and says a Phrase in the Qur'an about god doing what he wants.
Then I started talking About why would god tell Muhammad to marry as many wives as he want.
And his answer was Totally unexpected he said "Whats the problem of marrying 4 wives at once ?"
So I tried to forget about what he said and told him one of them of his wives was just 13 Years old.

So he replied saying "There's nothing wrong with that, back in the day girls reach puberty pretty fast due to the weather so she wasn't a kid as you think "

And I decided to stop asking him because I just felt like I'm wasting my time since he isn't saying anything useful.
I'll probably go to another Imam before converting though.

Do you know the conditions for having more than one wife? Try not go in conversation with one set of thought. From your question it will seem that way that you want to answer that way. Have you talked about this questions with your parents, brother or friends?

 

[KAL2006]

So I went to an Imam just like one of you said, to tell him about the Questions i have and here is the Conversation I had with him:

"I've thinking about Why Did God send 3 different Religions ?"

"Because God sent the 3 religions to different people in Different time"

"Couldn't just god send Judaism only and people would still believe in it till now, Right ?"

"That's not the only reason, The other reason is Because people changed phrases from Judaism and Christianity" and then gives me an example of what Christians did to the Bible.
So I told him "How didn't god know that people will eventually change phrases from the Bible and Torah ?"

"Well, That's God's wisdom" and says a Phrase in the Qur'an about god doing what he wants.
Then I started talking About why would god tell Muhammad to marry as many wives as he want.
And his answer was Totally unexpected he said "Whats the problem of marrying 4 wives at once ?"
So I tried to forget about what he said and told him one of them of his wives was just 13 Years old.

So he replied saying "There's nothing wrong with that, back in the day girls reach puberty pretty fast due to the weather so she wasn't a kid as you think "

And I decided to stop asking him because I just felt like I'm wasting my time since he isn't saying anything useful.
I'll probably go to another Imam before converting though.

I am not the most religeous muslim but I have a cousin who is an imam and he has gave me random lectures:lol

anyways I will try and answer one question

about being able to marry up to 4 wives
This is allowed only if your current wife/wives don't mind. It's not as if you can go around marrying and dont care what the women think, it's only okay if all the women agree (these days this never really happens). The prophet had good reasons to marry multiple times and all the wives didn't mind. Infact he didn't do it to be some sort of playa, for example he married a really old person to take care of her, he married a young girl to educate her and etc.

anyway I recommend you do extensive research before you make your decision, nowadays you have libraries, internet or even see muslim friends and etc.

 

[Anaxagoras]

So I went to an Imam just like one of you said, to tell him about the Questions i have and here is the Conversation I had with him:

"I've thinking about Why Did God send 3 different Religions ?"

"Because God sent the 3 religions to different people in Different time"

"Couldn't just god send Judaism only and people would still believe in it till now, Right ?"

"That's not the only reason, The other reason is Because people changed phrases from Judaism and Christianity" and then gives me an example of what Christians did to the Bible.
So I told him "How didn't god know that people will eventually change phrases from the Bible and Torah ?"

"Well, That's God's wisdom" and says a Phrase in the Qur'an about god doing what he wants.
Then I started talking About why would god tell Muhammad to marry as many wives as he want.
And his answer was Totally unexpected he said "Whats the problem of marrying 4 wives at once ?"
So I tried to forget about what he said and told him one of them of his wives was just 13 Years old.

So he replied saying "There's nothing wrong with that, back in the day girls reach puberty pretty fast due to the weather so she wasn't a kid as you think "

And I decided to stop asking him because I just felt like I'm wasting my time since he isn't saying anything useful.
I'll probably go to another Imam before converting though.

Ask the Imam to explain to you the the cosmological story of creationism in Surrat Fusilat verse 9 to 12:

[41:9] Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the Alam" (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

[41:10] He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four 'days' were equal in the length of time), for all those who ask (about its creation).

[41:11] Then He istaw (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come, willingly."

[41:12] Then He completed seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

I bet you that he will find no problems saying that earth is older than the stars and everything else in the universe.
:lol

Also watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218293233140975017#docid=9002284641446868316

 

[2San]

Ask the Imam to explain to you the the cosmological story of creationism in Surrat Fusilat verse 9 to 12:

[41:9] Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the Alam" (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

[41:10] He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four 'days' were equal in the length of time), for all those who ask (about its creation).

[41:11] Then He istaw (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come, willingly."

[41:12] Then He completed seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

I bet you that he will find no problems saying that earth is older than the stars and everything else in the universe.
:lol

I guess he wouldn't, I would however. Arabic is a complex language and can be interpreted in different ways. I always advice people to respect science(though always be critical).

Edit: To elaborate. Did he mean actual 7 heavens(so where we go to when we die and lived a good life). Or did he mean the Atmosphere of Earth is made out of 7 layers. While the Qu'ran does have stuff about science. It's not a book of science.

 

[Anaxagoras]

I guess he wouldn't, I would however. Arabic is a complex language and can be interpreted in different ways. I always advice people to respect science(though always be critical).

Edit: To elaborate. Did he mean actual 7 heavens(so where we go to when we die and lived a good life). Or did he mean the Atmosphere of Earth is made out of 7 layers. While the Qu'ran does have stuff about science. It's not a book of science.

Cooking books aren't science books either but if their claims are to be considered true then they shouldn't contradict with science, and if they did then you have to make the choice of either choosing faith that the books claims are true or choose reason and science which is a lot more reliable when it comes to understanding what is true and what is not.

As you said it can be interpreted differently, but my problem with these verses is that it clearly says that earth was created at a time when the rest of the universe was smoke, and the stars were placed after earth was created which is very unscientific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HE_1523-0901 <- oldest star

 

[Karram]

Huh can you mention from which verse it tells Muhammad(saw) can marry as many wifes as he wants? I can't remember reading that.

Short disclamer about me: I think the Hadith is worthless and only follow the Qu'ran and have only bothered to read that. So any reply's concerning the hadith you can keep to yourself.

As I remember muslims are allowed to marry 4 wives, but is discouraged. The only time where it is justified to take another wife is when you are saving that person from poverty and have the means to support her. While the rule doesn't make much sense these days(actually still does in poor contries). It is constructed to battle poverty. Before you guys wtf. Polygamy was considered normal in that time and is accepted in Christianity.


I'll say the same, I'll just call you a hypocrite if you try to be Muslim and gay at the same time, but I do the same with people who drink alcohol as well. The quran only mentioned gays once in a doomed city. I'd interpreted that it is forbidden, but there are no penalties mentioned or anything. It's just another sin. As I have friends who aren't muslims(only about 10% of my friends are muslim), I can have friends that are gay as well. Though truth be told don't know any.

I think it was Hadith and even if you don't want follow it for some reason you still can't deny marrying 4 wives at once is a good thing I just think its terrible. I mean when someone cheat on his wife gets stoned to death or get a 100 whip in case he isn't married and when a guy marries 4 wives at once and have sex with them everyday and its totally fine.

I couldn't find where it was discouraged or where it was said that the wife has to agree. Your justification doesn't make any sense to me you're saying that in order to save someone from poverty I have to marry her Because as far as I know a man can help a man or a Woman can help a woman without having to get married I don't have to marry someone in order to support, educate or take care of him. It just doesn't make any sense and I fully understand that polygamy was normal but shouldn't have god stopped it by saying only 1 wife is allowed.

Just to clear it up I'm not gay but I can't find a harm in Homosexuality and can't see why its a sin.

Cooking books aren't science books either but if their claims are to be considered true then they shouldn't contradict with science, and if they did then you have to make the choice of either choosing faith that the books claims are true or choose reason and science which is a lot more reliable when it comes to understanding what is true and what is not.

As you said it can be interpreted differently, but my problem with these verses is that it clearly says that earth was created at a time when the rest of the universe was smoke, and the stars were placed after earth was created which is very unscientific.

That's a pretty good point. So since the verse was scientifically proven wrong did anyone try to explain in a different way ?

 

[Shanadeus]

I think it was Hadith and even if you don't want follow it for some reason you still can't deny marrying 4 wives at once is a good thing I just think its terrible. I mean when someone cheat on his wife gets stoned to death or get a 100 whip in case he isn't married and when a guy marries 4 wives at once and have sex with them everyday and its totally fine.

I couldn't find where it was discouraged or where it was said that the wife has to agree. Your justification doesn't make any sense to me you're saying that in order to save someone from poverty I have to marry her Because as far as I know a man can help a man or a Woman can help a woman without having to get married I don't have to marry someone in order to support, educate or take care of him. It just doesn't make any sense and I fully understand that polygamy was normal but shouldn't have god stopped it by saying only 1 wife is allowed.

Regarding polygamy in Islam, you should be more upset over the discriminatory and belittling tone of the Quran in regards to women.
Whereas a man can marry up to four wives if he can support them, a woman simply isn't allowed to marry four men if she is rich enough for it. All because of her being relegated to a specific role as pretty much a housewife and caretaker of the home and kids, with no flexibility to define her own role.

It is pretty obvious that those rules were probably only relevant back in the old days, where it might have been easier to marry a woman in order to help her out better.
And why rules that are supposedly the word of God would get irrelevant as the world progress is something you have to figure out for yourself.

 

[Ashes]

There are other schools of thought. I'm lazy.. google came up with this:

http://www.submission.org/women/mis.html

 

[Anaxagoras]

That's a pretty good point. So since the verse was scientifically proven wrong did anyone try to explain in a different way ?

It is very hard to interpret these verses in a way that they do not contradict with what we know scientifically today, I haven't seen anyone succeed at it so far.
The closest effort was from a Muslim from Indonesia who teaches a science subject and this is was his response:

The mistake is to assume that these verses show the actual sequence of creation. Like the quotation at the top of this post, the Qur'an was written to show us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. These four verses were revealed not to provide a scientific proof, but to discuss how the Earth, sky and heavens were created in a manner that a people with a lack of scientific knowledge could understand.

I am not going to refute his claim over here but I can say that this is one of the many things that they often do when cornered. There aren't many Muslims who agree with him on this and I don't do so either.

One important thing to keep in mind is the difference between the good/bad and true/false argument, just because a belief isn't the healthiest one available at a given time doesn't mean that it is false. It is a lot easier to justify what you might consider bad Islamic practices by using the greater good for example, but you can't do that with as easily when it comes to false scientific claims.
Also don't rely on Hadiths as evidence against Islam, it won't get you anywhere, focus on the claims of claims of the Quran instead, but if you insist then here is something that I have put together a while ago:
Women's role in islam: The story

Here is also the story of my apostasy, feel free to read it if you have the time and the interest in doing so:
The story of my apostasy

 

[Anaxagoras]

I really liked the Religion: Root of all Evil series, although I highly dislike the name of it.

Watch it on youtube instead, because video google's interface sucks:

Root of all Evil? Part 1

Enemies of Reacon is just as good, in my opinion:

Enemies of Reason part 1

Despite the fact I find Dawkins arrogant in some ways, such as labeling theology as "irrational, superstitious thinking", I find these two documentaries to be highly intelligent, open-minded and informational. Karram, I highly suggest watching these videos.

I disliked the tittle too, but my favorite is Christopher Hitchens, I just love the way he debates, he never fails at making the audience laugh no matter where they stand on the topic that is being debated.

 

[crazy monkey]

Karram from the looks of it you have made up your mind. You are like nizar part 2 since you are going in the talk with single mind. How many Muslims have you seen with 4 wives?